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Crash
08-07-2009, 11:17 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj5gzvGnGP4
Made me physically ill to watch the entire film. What a country we live in. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

CardinalFJ60
08-07-2009, 11:28 AM
I could only watch the first 45 secs of it. I don't feel so good either, now.

MDH33
08-07-2009, 11:43 AM
What a waste. So wrong... :mad:

I AM doing my part to help save the environment. I drive a recycled vehicle that is worth fixing. How much pollution and waste comes from every new plastic piece of crap car made in 2009 that will have a shorter life and end up in a landfill anyway...

I hate our throw-away culture. :tongue2::banghead:

nakman
08-07-2009, 11:50 AM
You guys should get in on the Obama thread... which has become sort of a catch-all for anything political or anti-government. Kind of fun really...

I think Cash for Clunkers took up most of pages 20 and 21 if you still have your default settings, lots of interesting info in there for sure. :thumb:

corsair23
08-07-2009, 11:52 AM
:(

What else can you say - I can hardly wait until this band of idiots starts managing healthcare...Don't worry sir, this won't hurt a bit...Just sit back and relax, you'll feel a small prick and it will all be over shortly...We even have a nice video to watch while we wait for you to...umm...expire

FJBRADY
08-07-2009, 12:04 PM
Wow that was a nice 62 :eek:.....saw in the paper the some old lady traded in a 88 caprice with only 33,000 miles.....this program is the worst.

Could you imagine the vintage steel being crushed if the program did not cap the age at 25 years :mad:

Hulk
08-07-2009, 12:54 PM
Why would anyone trade in such a nice Land Cruiser?

Crash
08-07-2009, 12:54 PM
Don't know the real value of a low mileage '88 Caprice ;) but if the tard that traded in the 77K mile FJ62 had half a brain they could have done a minimum of research on the net and found a buyer for $4500 easily. My gripe is not with the politics but with our throwaway culture as Martin pointed out. Seeing how houses are being constructed these days makes me ill, too.

corsair23
08-07-2009, 01:03 PM
Why would anyone trade in such a nice Land Cruiser?

I've been wondering the same thing...Same thing with the Volvo 850 video Dave linked to...A Volvo 850 isn't worth more than $4500? We aren't talking about a 20+ year old piece of crap cargo van.

My guess...Trade in = easy and offers tax advantages to the buyer. Plus it is often a lot quicker than trying to find a buyer, especially lately. Wish I still had my '84 Subaru that I could trade in...I'm going to be paying for this program so I might as well take advantage of it right? :rolleyes:

Hulk
08-07-2009, 01:05 PM
Wow, there's tons of videos of this. There's one of a BMW 735i. Why would anyone trade in such a nice car? :confused: Maybe I don't understand the program.

nakman
08-07-2009, 01:11 PM
Here's another article for you, explains the '88 caprice a little more. I guess they're going to try to resell it and just eat the $4500 they gave for the trade..
from http://www.pddnet.com/news-dead-clunker-rolling-080709/

"I like new stuff," said Pulce, 19, of Chicago



Dead Clunker Rolling
By DON BABWIN,Associated Press WriterFriday, August 07, 2009 Digg Delicious Google It furl It Technorati Email Print Share [-] Text [+] Read/Post Comments


A crane lifts a flattened van to a shredder at Gershow Recycling Corp. in Medford, N.Y., Thursday, Aug. 6, 2009. Many of the scrapped vehicles are part of the "cash for clunkers" program. The Senate is poised to pump $2 billion more into the popular "cash-for-clunkers" program after agreeing to give shoppers until Labor Day to make a deal on more energy-efficient models. (AP Photo/Mark Lennihan)



Cars from the “cash-for-clunkers” program wait in line at Gibson Chevrolet for their sodium silicate poison at the scrap yard.

SOUTH HOLLAND, Ill. (AP) — They were waiting down at Gibson Chevrolet near Chicago for a couple of five-gallon cans of sodium silicate — liquid glass, they call it — to poison and kill the clunkers when the latest condemned car pulled up.

The 1999 Ford Explorer with 140,000 miles was still sturdy. It had some body damage, including a mangled front bumper, but nothing that couldn't be fixed.

Gabrielle Pulce wasn't thinking about that. She wasn't sentimental about all the trips taken in the Explorer or about how in a few days the SUV will be squished until it's about as tall as a toaster.

ADVERTISEMENT

"I like new stuff," said Pulce, 19, of Chicago.

She is among the thousands of people across the nation who have taken advantage of the government's "cash-for-clunkers" program. One after another, they've pulled up to dealerships in gas guzzlers and pulled out in gas sippers after getting rebates up to $4,500 for a new car — like the more efficient Chevy Equinox SUV bought for Pulce by her mother.

The program has breathed new life into the dealership, which sold more vehicles since the program began than in all of June. But for jalopies like the Explorer, it's the end of the line.

Out back at Gibson Chevrolet south of Chicago there's a growing conga line of clunkers — 17 in all this week.

All of them made it here under their own power — a requirement of the program is that they all be drivable. But if this were a hospital, their conditions would range from good to critical.

Among those in better shape is a maroon 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic, with matching maroon velour seats. It is the kind of land whale that once dominated the roadways. It is also a reminder that while $4,500 off on a new car is enticing, it also means losing an old friend.

"I cry before I came out here, I cry," said Clorinda Tomasi, who just before her 83rd birthday traded the Caprice for a new Malibu. "I been thinking of this since a few years ago, but I always got cold feet."

One vehicle in Gibson's waiting line is beyond a clunker: a 1987 Ford Econoline van. Road salt has left its lower edges looking like a voracious animal chewed on them. The driver's door stays closed only with help from a latch like those used to lock garden sheds. And it's unclear what would fall off if not for the yards of duct tape along the windshield and throughout the interior.

"He said his wife was celebrating already," said Dave Gibson, one of the dealership's owners, clearly impressed with the efforts to keep the van alive.

All the clunkers face the same fate.

"We'll drain the engine of oil and pour in two quarts of the sodium silicate and run the engine until it seizes," said Gibson, whose grandfather opened the dealership more than 50 years ago.

Then it's off to one of two nearby wrecking yards owned by Vito Mistretta.

But Mistretta isn't quite ready for the new batch of cars. The program has triggered an avalanche of work.

Tow truck drivers have been picking up vehicles at dealerships all over the Chicago area and dropping them off at his scrap yards in Gary, Ind., and Calumet City as fast as they can.

Once there, a forklift picks up each vehicle and impales the gas tank on a spike, causing the gasoline to spill into a large bowl below.

The vehicle is then put into what looks a like a bathtub where the forklifts stab at the engine, plucking out the radiator and other parts, which are later recycled or turned into scrap.

Finally, the car reaches its final destination: the mouth of the crusher.

The vehicle is placed inside what looks like a motorhome as a massive slab of steel descends. What happens next sounds like a slow-motion car crash: Glass shatters. Metal bends and snaps. Tires pop, letting out a whoosh of air.

The crusher "flattens a car into 8 inches to a foot," Mistretta said.

After three or four cars are flattened, the fork lift picks them up and stacks them in another part of the yard, where they will be loaded into trucks and taken to a facility to be shredded.

Mistretta said workers are pulling off a few things like headlights and hoods to be sold later, but, "There's so many, there's no time to really do that."

"We're keeping everybody here until 8, 9 at night," he said. His two machines at each of his yards crush a total of about 100 vehicles a day.

The clunker crushing isn't going to let up anytime soon.

"We've got about 700, 800 cars out there," he said of the cars still parked at Gibson and other dealerships.

One car the yard may not get is another Caprice Classic that Gibson's Chevrolet took in.

This one is a 1988 model with just 37,000 miles and not so much as a dent or a torn seat or any sign of wear in the plush tan carpeting.

"The older employees, they lost sleep at night thinking this car is going to get cubed," Gibson said.

So, while they push through documents on the other vehicles, this one sits among the used cars, an American flag on the antenna, the word "Clean" on the windshield.

No cash-for-clunkers paperwork has been submitted on it. The hope is that somebody will pay something close to the $4,500 the dealership gave the owner toward a new car so it can be sold simply as a trade-in.

As of Thursday, they had no offers. But employees did spot people outside taking pictures of the car.

Mendocino
08-07-2009, 01:51 PM
Have you guys though about the increase in average consumer debt as a result of this program? If they "trade-in" 900K cars with an average net consumer price of $14k that is an increase of debt of ~$12.6B dollars. :eek:This hardly seems like a good way to get people to live within their means.

nakman
08-07-2009, 02:04 PM
Good point, Jeff.

And hey, the additional $2 Billion is official now, if you hadn't heard...

UPDATE: Obama OKs ‘Cash-For-Clunkers’ $2B Refill
By Ken Thomas, Associated Press Writer
Manufacturing.Net - August 07, 2009






WASHINGTON (AP) -- Car shoppers caught up in the frenzy of the "cash-for-clunkers" program now have more time and a $2 billion reason to trade in their old gas guzzlers.

President Barack Obama signed into law Friday a measure tripling the budget of the $1 billion incentive program that has drawn big crowds to formerly deserted showrooms. The Senate on Thursday passed the legislation extending the 2-week-old program into Labor Day and preventing it from running out of money.

"Now more American consumers will have the chance to purchase newer, more fuel-efficient cars and the American economy will continue to get a much-needed boost," Obama said in a statement hailing the vote.

The extra money, approved by the House last week, is aimed at helping automakers and spurring the economy while removing the least fuel-efficient vehicles from the road. Last week, the government said the program's funding would be exhausted by Friday if it was not replenished.

Through late Tuesday, the most recent data available, more than $775 million of the original $1 billion had been spent, accounting for the sale of nearly 185,000 new vehicles. Administration officials estimate the new money will last into Labor Day and could prompt another 500,000 vehicle sales.

Dealers said the additional money would help them maintain a sales pace they haven't seen in months and continue to benefit from heavy publicity surrounding the rebates. Car dealers saw an uptick in sales in July, when Ford Motor Co. achieved its first year-over-year sales increase since November 2007.

"People are still coming in. It's like everyone out there has been given the green flag," said John Rogin, who runs a Buick dealership in Livonia, Mich.

Senate opponents of the program, most of them Republicans, question its effectiveness and cost. They contend the funding is leading the government to pick winners and losers and that many car buyers, stoked by speculation about the program last spring, simply held off buying until the incentives started in July.

"These buyers would have bought the cars anyway," said Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Ala., who opposed the plan.

Auto industry analyst Aaron Bragman of IHS Global Insight said it was unlikely that demand will remain as high as it is now. Many people who qualified have already bought cars and while the rebates are expected to boost total vehicle sales in 2009, Bragman predicted lower sales next year because many customers have already taken advantage of the incentives.

"You are not going to see a continuation of the frenzied sales pace," Bragman said. "I don't think they will use up that money any time soon."

Under the program, passenger car owners are eligible for a voucher worth $3,500 if they trade in a drivable vehicle that got a combined city/highway mileage of 18 miles per gallon or less when it was new for a new car getting at least 22 mpg. Vouchers of $4,500 are available for owners who trade in a passenger car that got 18 mpg or less combined for a model that gets at least 28 mpg. Owners of old SUVs, pickups and vans can take advantage of similar benefits. Dealers ensure the traded-in vehicles are crushed and shredded.

"The reality is this is a program that has been working," said Sen. Debbie Stabenow, D-Mich.

Automakers are planning for a boost in sales. Hyundai Motor Co. has added a day of production at its Montgomery, Ala., factory, while General Motors Co. and Ford are considering following suit.

"Consumer confidence is really what you need here," said Tom Stephens, GM's vice chairman of global product development. "It's hard for them if they don't know if they have a job or a for-sure paycheck to go out and make a major purchase, so I think this is kind of jump-starting some things."

AP Special Correspondent David Espo in Washington, AP Auto Writers Tom Krisher in Traverse City, Mich., and Dan Strumpf in New York and AP Business Writer Stephen Manning contributed to this report.

Beater
08-07-2009, 02:28 PM
it's all about "perceived value" or as some say, one man's trash is another's treasure. I hate this program as well, even though my father in law is having his worst year in 30 some years in the business until this program started. Another point though is that the salvage yards are full to capacity already, except for the pick - n - pulls.

Hulk
08-07-2009, 03:31 PM
Have you guys though about the increase in average consumer debt as a result of this program? If they "trade-in" 900K cars with an average net consumer price of $14k that is an increase of debt of ~$12.6B dollars. :eek:This hardly seems like a good way to get people to live within their means.

I've thought about that, too. Usually it's cheaper to repair an old car that you own rather than drive a new car that the bank owns.

Not always though. My advice: don't buy a used Audi. DAMHIK.

Beater
08-07-2009, 03:35 PM
the real fault of this program, is that the people who need to get rid of their clunkers don't have enough of a revenue stream to afford a new car... if you look at the demographics of who is taking advantage of this program, you will find it is mostly solid middle to upper middle class. People who could have probably bought a car without the 3500/4500 dollars, sold their old well maintained vehicle to someone who needed one, and so on and so on.

jettaglxdriver
08-07-2009, 04:06 PM
It is taking those well maintained used vehicles from those sellers getting new cars and sending them to the crusher which is going to pretty much **** in the pool of used cars the less fortunate or credit challanged buyers have to pick from futher screwing the lower middle class.

MDH33
08-07-2009, 04:10 PM
The other huge negative impact is that all of these cars that are loaded with perfectly useable parts are being crushed and shredded. It's already hard enough to keep an older rig running without decreasing the pool of good used parts by crushing everything. So wasteful!

FJBRADY
08-07-2009, 05:24 PM
Unfortunately those who could afford to buy without the stimulus are jumping at this program. Dealers are matching the stimulus dollars to sweeten the deal in a lot of cases. In two months the car industry is going to see a huge decline in sales when this program finally dries up....what then?

It is truly unfortunate that the Gov't did not buy these cars with the intention to offer them up to the underprivileged much like subsidized housing.

I wonder how many pos the Xzibit's show "Pimp my Ride" found the crusher???????? That would be a worthy statistic!

Bruce Miller
08-07-2009, 05:52 PM
It's wealth redistribution, plain and simple. Take from the taxpayer and give to the rich bankers and to the auto industry. During the campaign, Obama promised he'd redistribute income. Socialism, plain and simple.

subzali
08-07-2009, 06:16 PM
I'm so mad after watching that video I could start cursing. What in the WORLD is wrong with our government? In whose mind was it a good idea for the environment to crush and trash perfectly good cars? That has GOT to be the least effective way of using all these cars that have been traded in! Obama's so interested in giving everything to the poor, why doesn't he give these old cars to the poor? Or geez instead of just completely wasting the money by having them crushed, why not sell them to Mexico or some place where they are always dragging old wrecks anyway? I bet by reselling them we could have gotten some of our money back from the program and stayed under the $1 billion limit, rather than increasing it another $2 billion out of frickin' thin air! What kind of Fed chairman do we have that can pull money out of a frickin' hat?

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :rant: :rant: :rant: :mad: :mad: :mad:

By the way that video was just sickening - my heart rate probably went up to 150-160! I wish I could have ran in there to stop them! DO THEY UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY ARE DOING!?!?!?!?!?

Bruce Miller
08-07-2009, 06:33 PM
They're not pulling money out of thin air, they're stealing it from your paycheck. Working for a living will soon be one of the stupidest things anybody could do!

treerootCO
08-08-2009, 06:44 AM
They're not pulling money out of thin air, they're stealing it from your paycheck. Working for a living will soon be one of the stupidest things anybody could do!
I think we need to bring this video back to the top...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI

Corbet
08-08-2009, 07:38 AM
If it makes you guys feel any better, pretty much all the "clunkers" we have taken in have been 1/2 ton platform GM products. (pick ups, suburbans, tahoe, etc..)

Inukshuk
08-08-2009, 03:06 PM
Its like Crash said - its the person who traded in the 62 who is the posterchild for what is wrong with society. The government did not pick the vehicle.
Also, does the government prevent it being parted out?

A government program to remove less fuel efficient cars/trucks/whatever is not in itself a bad idea. Its all in the execution. Does the reduction in quantity of fuel efficient cars really make up for the new production? Likely this is just a way to boost new car sales negotiated in a back room by the US automakers.

I still prefer the CCC and WWW model - just put the unemployed to work in low paying basic jobs on public works projects.

BTW, I watched it all and the damn cruiser ran 12 minutes!

Corbet
08-08-2009, 07:24 PM
We were forced to kill a FJ80. It was hammered and the PO stripped off what they wanted. But I was told it took some time to kill it.;) We have only had 2 other Toyota's traded on the clunker bill. A taco with front end damage and a 4runner with blown HG's. Everything else has been big 3 junk that probably was near its time anyway.

I will base my opinion on this bill after its all said and done. I want to see what happens when the money is gone.

ElliottB
08-09-2009, 10:48 AM
What a waste. So wrong... :mad:

I AM doing my part to help save the environment. I drive a recycled vehicle that is worth fixing. How much pollution and waste comes from every new plastic piece of crap car made in 2009 that will have a shorter life and end up in a landfill anyway...

I hate our throw-away culture. :tongue2::banghead:

Really good point! This is pretty awful.

nakman
08-17-2009, 10:30 AM
Uh oh, troubles in paradise... http://www.manufacturing.net/article.aspx?id=212680

'Cash For Clunkers' Hits Speed Bump

Manufacturing.Net - August 17, 2009

JACKSON, Miss. (AP) -- Joy from boosted auto sales and increased showroom traffic has been replaced by frustration as auto dealers wait for Cash for Clunkers repayments.

Delayed government reimbursements have caused many dealers to hold off on making new deals and at least one Mississippi dealer has decided to stop participating.

"I quit," Rudy Dossett Jr., of Dossett Big 4 dealerships in Tupelo said. "We have told people 'Come get your clunker and go somewhere else.' I don't want anything to do with the program."

Dossett, who sells GMCs, Buicks, Cadillacs and Hondas, has 11-14 applications awaiting approval but will not do anymore.

He said he is owed about $45,000 for clunkers and has not heard when he might get the money.

Dealers are to be paid within 10 days after a completed application is submitted, according to the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration, which is running the program. But if an incomplete application is rejected, it goes to the back of the line when it is resubmitted. The agency is holding information sessions with dealers and has increased its computer network capacity to help process applications.

But dealers say the government is not meeting the timeline.

Watson Quality dealerships in Jackson and Canton submitted 48 applications as of Friday afternoon, general manager Cliff Mitchell said.

"We are still doing deals and still haven't seen any money yet," Mitchell said.

Walt Massey, chairman of the Mississippi Auto Dealers Association, said a majority of dealers, including him, have stopped accepting clunkers until some reimbursements arrive.

"It is an incentive for the consumer but they are putting the burden on the dealer to collect the money," he said.

The program aimed at replacing older vehicles with more fuel efficient models gives consumers a $3,500 or $4,500 credit depending on the vehicle.

Massey, who owns a GM dealership in Lucedale and four others in Alabama, said a $4,500 clunker credit is about triple the profit a dealership receives on each new car sale.

"We are not (just) waiting to get our profit," he said of the credit. "We are in the hole."

He said if a car sells for $18,000 and the customer receives a $4,500 manufacturer's rebate and $4,500 from the clunker program, then a dealer is left waiting for $9,000 -- half the sale price.

He said manufacturers pay dealers two to three weeks after a car is sold. In the meantime, dealers have to keep paying salaries and other operating costs.

Mitchell said because of the large volume his dealership moves normally, they have been able to wait on the government to fix problems with the system.

"There are not a lot of dealers with that type of cash flow," Mitchell said.

Dealers seem most frustrated by the lack of information coming from the government.

Dossett predicted some businesses that took in many clunkers may end up in bankruptcy because of slow government payments.

Massey and Mitchell said they have each assigned a full-time employee to file clunker applications with the government.

"This is a college graduate that I am having to pay $65,000 a year to sit on the phone," Massey said. The employee was recently on the hold for six hours without talking to a person, Massey said.

"It is a good-natured program and the purpose's intent is great for the consumer, dealer and good for the environment," Massey said.

Another concern has been whether funds will be gone and dealers will be on the hook for tens of thousands in unpaid reimbursements. And because they have to disable the vehicle engine, the trade-in vehicles are scrap metal.

As of Friday, the agency had received 358,851 applications nationwide valued at more than $1.5 billion. The program has a $3 billion pot and will run until Nov. 1 or when the funds are spent. The agency does not track how much money has been paid out.

But Massey said the program has been more popular than anyone contemplated.

"We need to give the government a little bit of a break. They weren't prepared and had no way of knowing what the response would be."

treerootCO
08-17-2009, 10:58 AM
This is how this works....the government starts by making people feel entitled. The next step is a planned poor execution of making people feel entitled. The final step is to seek total control as soon as you have the majority convinced the plan has failed. The sad part is people will blindly give the government total control...

Apply this to health care, cash for clunkers, bailouts, etc.

DaveInDenver
08-17-2009, 11:18 AM
This is how this works....the government starts by making people feel entitled. The next step is a planned poor execution of making people feel entitled. The final step is to seek total control as soon as you have the majority convinced the plan has failed. The sad part is people will blindly give the government total control...

Apply this to health care, cash for clunkers, bailouts, etc.
I was reading the other day that besides Congress, some private citizens have (or had) the option of not enrolling in Social Security and Medicaid/Medicare. For example the clergy have this choice to consciously refrain from feeding at the trough. No idea how many do. The draw to public teat is strong (particular when they consider that opting out of Social Security also means not receiving Medicare as older sages), even for morally principled people who vow not to pray to false gods.

nuclearlemon
08-17-2009, 12:20 PM
I was reading the other day that besides Congress, some private citizens have (or had) the option of not enrolling in Social Security and Medicaid/Medicare. .

we were looking into that at work and everyone has the option of not signing into social security, but consider what a bitch life would be since jobs all want a social security number. bank accounts ask for that. gov't services ask for it. etc...

treerootCO
08-17-2009, 12:31 PM
This is getting off topic rather quickly but raises the debate on SS vs. pension funds. When you opt out of SS, you can pay into a private fund. When cities run out of money, they often steal from the coffer. When unions privatize the funds they often invest the money and skim off the top. It is a gamble either way. Other than Enron, I think Continental Airlines was the last pension to go broke but I haven't kept up on it. It seems like Qwest had a lot of the pension invested into Qwest stock so that was affected with insider trading much like the Enron/Arther Anderson scandal. My personal favorite is ESOP, where employees are forced to invest their 401K into company stock. The company buys the stock in two lots with the knowledge that the first lot will be big enough to raise the stock price for the second lot. Funny math at it's finest.

Bruce Miller
08-17-2009, 01:49 PM
We can't legally opt out of paying Social Security. Be careful with the advice you're getting. Check it out.

nakman
08-19-2009, 02:33 PM
Oh my...

N.Y. Dealers Back Out Of Clunkers Program
By Dan Strumpf, AP Auto Writer
Manufacturing.Net - August 19, 2009

NEW YORK (AP) -- Hundreds of auto dealers in the New York area have withdrawn from the government's Cash for Clunkers program, citing delays in getting reimbursed by the government, a dealership group said Wednesday.

The Greater New York Automobile Dealers Association, which represents dealerships in the New York metro area, said about half its 425 members have left the program because they cannot afford to offer more rebates. They're also worried about getting repaid.

"(The government) needs to move the system forward and they need to start paying these dealers," said Mark Schienberg, the group's president. "This is a cash-dependent business."

The program offers up to $4,500 to shoppers who trade in vehicles getting 18 mpg or less for a more fuel-efficient car or truck. Dealers pay the rebates out of pocket, then must wait to be reimbursed by the government. But administrative snags and heavy paperwork have created a backlog of unpaid claims.

Schienberg said the group's dealers have been repaid for only about 2 percent of the clunkers deals they've made so far.

Many dealers have said they are worried they won't get repaid at all, while others have waited so long to get reimbursed they don't have the cash to fund any more rebates, Schienberg said.

"The program is a great program in the sense that it's creating a lot of floor traffic that a lot of dealers haven't seen in a long time," he said.

"But it's in the hands of this enormous bureaucracy and regulatory agency," he added. "If they don't get out of their own way, this program is going to be a huge failure."

The program is administered by the Department of Transportation. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said Wednesday that dealers will be repaid for the clunkers deals they have completed.

"I know dealers are frustrated. They're going to get their money," LaHood told reporters. He said the Obama administration would soon announce how much longer the $3 billion car incentive program will last.

Through early Wednesday, auto dealers have made clunkers deals worth $1.81 billion, resulting in 435,102 new car sales, according to the DOT.

Associated Press Writer Ken Thomas contributed to this report from Washington.

Hulk
08-19-2009, 02:59 PM
We can't legally opt out of paying Social Security. Be careful with the advice you're getting. Check it out.

If you become a minister or a priest, you can opt out.
http://www.themonastery.org/

Otherwise, you're in for life. :rolleyes:

powderpig
08-20-2009, 06:42 AM
I remember back in the 80's you could opt out if you had so many quarters(3 month period) paid in to the system. They changed the law some time in the last part of 80's early 90's to what it is currently. I think too many people were opting out.

jettaglxdriver
08-20-2009, 07:34 AM
Working for Denver Public Schools we don't pay into Social Security we just pay into our pension which is getting raped as we get drug into Pera against our will.

DaveInDenver
08-20-2009, 07:55 AM
Working for Denver Public Schools we don't pay into Social Security we just pay into our pension which is getting raped as we get drug into Pera against our will.
So you guys don't like PERA?

jettaglxdriver
08-20-2009, 08:17 AM
Well the guys who are losing points in their pension retroactive back 15 years and having to work longer for retirement sure don't.

DaveInDenver
08-20-2009, 08:57 AM
Well the guys who are losing points in their pension retroactive back 15 years and having to work longer for retirement sure don't.
I dig it, but the state legislature is considering making up the difference, which would more than double the amount the taxpayers have to contribute (from about $110 million to $250 million) to make up the short fall. PERA was decimated by the stock market crash since they had a lot of their money tied up in equities. Same as what happened in 2001 when they lost a ton of money and promised to move the money into less risky investments. Turns out that they only had 25% in safer fixed income.

nakman
08-21-2009, 09:33 AM
Final weekend!

'Cash For Clunkers' Ends Monday
By Ken Thomas and Stephen Manning, Associated Press Writers
Manufacturing.Net - August 21, 2009

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Car shoppers have until Monday night to take advantage of lucrative Cash for Clunkers rebates from the government, and the Obama administration is hoping for a smooth ending to a program that has spurred auto sales but created headaches for many auto dealers.

The popular program will end at 8 p.m. EDT Monday after burning through much of its $3 billion in funding in just a month. All new deals will have to be completed and dealers must file their paperwork by the deadline in order to get repaid for the big incentives.

President Barack Obama and administration officials declared the program a success Thursday, saying it has revitalized the ailing auto industry and finally brought reluctant car buyers back to dealership lots. Originally a $1 billion program, Cash for Clunkers was boosted to $3 billion in early August after heavy customer demand nearly depleted its funds in just one week.

Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said the program has been "a lifeline to the automobile industry, jump starting a major sector of the economy and putting people back to work." He said the department was "working toward an orderly wind down of this very popular program."

But it has also created problems for dealers, many of whom have yet to be repaid for the clunker deals they have made. Under the program, dealers take rebates of $3,500 or $4,500 off the price of a new car in return for older, less fuel-efficient trade-ins that are sent to the scrap heap. They then must submit a 13-page application with proper documentation of the sale in order to get repaid.

That has left many dealers with unpaid claims worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.

"It has brought in some traffic that we would not have had, but if you don't get paid, it is all for naught," said Alton Owen Jr., sales manager at Owen Ford in Jarratt, Va. His dealership won't be offering the clunker deals this weekend because it has yet to be repaid for 21 sales.

Obama and LaHood pledged that dealers will get their money back. But government data shows that many claims are still outstanding. As of Thursday, 457,000 sales worth $1.9 billion had been received. About 40 percent of those claims have been reviewed, but only $140 million, or about 7 percent of the claims dealers submitted, have actually been paid.

Government officials said there were no plans to extend the program again. The Monday deadline was set to avoid surpassing the $3 billion funding level, given deals that may be made this weekend and those that are still in the pipeline for approval.

Applications for rebates will not be accepted after the Monday deadline, administration officials said. The Transportation Department cautioned dealers about making sales this weekend, advising them to make sales only where the buyer's paperwork is clearly in order and can be submitted immediately for repayment. Dealers will be able to resubmit rejected applications after the deadline.

John McEleney, chairman of the National Automobile Dealers Association, said he remained concerned that so few dealers had been reimbursed for Clunker deals. But he said the Monday deadline should give dealers time to get their paperwork in order.

"I think if we can get a clean cutoff Monday and get everything processed by then, it will have been a pretty darned successful program," he said.

But Mike Mahalak, who runs a Dodge, Chrysler and Jeep dealership in Winter Haven, Fla., said the Monday end date could lead to a similar rush that nearly crippled the federal government's computer systems that were set up to handle claims.

"That Web site will lock up again once everyone is cramming it again on Monday," Mahalak said. The administration has said it expanded the capacity of the computer network in an effort to improve the process for dealers.

Obama said in an interview Thursday that the program has been "successful beyond anybody's imagination" but dealers were overwhelmed by the response of consumers. He pledged that dealers "will get their money." The administration has said it has tripled the number of staffers sorting through the paperwork.

It remains unclear whether the Monday deadline will create a new rush of sales this weekend and if dealers will continue to make deals knowing their claims have to be filed in four days.

To help cash-strapped dealers, both Chrysler and General Motors said they would begin providing cash advances to help dealers cover any cash shortfalls related to the program. The automakers said they would provide the advances for up to 30 days to dealers who have already completed a sale and that they will be available as long as the program remains in effect.

The program provided at least a temporary boost for the beleaguered auto industry and dealers.

GM announced plans to rehire more than 1,300 workers and automakers have been paying overtime to ramp up production. Hyundai recalled 3,000 workers in Alabama. Many dealers have made hundreds of sales and reported that even customers who don't qualify for the program are visiting lots to buy new cars.

Jeremy Anwyl, CEO of the auto Web site Edmunds.com, said the government incentives could dry up sales in September and October, along with a tight vehicle inventory, higher prices for new models arriving in the fall and consumers who are focused on finding a good deal.

"It's been a nice party for a few weeks. The hangover, I don't think, is going to be anywhere near as much fun," Anwyl said.

nakman
08-26-2009, 02:29 PM
Alright, as the story comes to a close here's some hard data for you... http://www.manufacturing.net/article.aspx?id=214482

Clunkers Program Sells 700,000 Cars
By Ken Thomas and Stephen Manning, Associated Press Writers
Manufacturing.Net - August 26, 2009

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Cash for Clunkers generated nearly 700,000 new car sales and ended under its $3 billion budget, the Transportation Department said Wednesday.

Releasing final data, the government said dealers submitted 690,114 vouchers totaling $2.88 billion. New car sales through the program ended late Monday and dealers were allowed to submit paperwork to the government until late Tuesday.

Japanese automakers Toyota, Honda and Nissan accounted for 41 percent of the new vehicle sales, outpacing Detroit automakers General Motors, Ford and Chrysler, which had a share of nearly 39 percent. Toyota Motor Corp. led the industry with 19.4 percent of new sales, followed by General Motors Co. with 17.6 percent and Ford Motor Co. with 14.4 percent.

The Toyota Corolla was the most popular new vehicle purchased under the program, followed by the Honda Civic, Toyota Camry and Ford Focus.

Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said U.S. consumers and workers were "the clear winners" under the program. "Manufacturing plants have added shifts and recalled workers. Moribund showrooms were brought back to life and consumers bought fuel-efficient cars that will save them money and improve the environment," he said.

The White House Council of Economic Advisers said the program will boost economic growth in the third quarter by 0.3 to 0.4 percentage points because of the increased auto sales in July and August. An estimated 42,000 jobs will be created or saved during the second half of the year, the White House said.

The program, which began in late July, offered consumers rebates of $3,500 or $4,500 off the price of a new vehicle in return for trading in their older, less fuel-efficient vehicles. The trade-in vehicles needed to get 18 miles per gallon or less and were then scrapped.

It proved far more popular than lawmakers originally thought. Congress was forced to add another $2 billion to the original $1 billion budget when the first pot of money nearly ran out in a week. The extra money was supposed to last through Labor Day, but in the end, Cash for Clunkers ran only about a month.

Dealers loved the new sales, but reported major hassles trying to get the government to repay them for the rebates they gave customers. The government extended the deadline for them to file deals, but many still haven't received their money.

Peter Kitzmiller, president of the Maryland Automobile Dealers Association, said most dealers appeared to get their paperwork in by the Tuesday night deadline. He expressed hope the pace of repayments would pick up now that government officials are working through the backlog.

The Transportation Department said Wednesday that 2,000 people are processing dealer applications, but Kitzmiller said the rate of repayment hasn't increased. "I'm a little concerned that we haven't seen any improvement," he said.

The government said 84 percent of the trade-ins were trucks and 59 percent of the new vehicles were passenger cars. New vehicles bought through Cash for Clunkers had an average fuel-efficiency of 24.9 miles per gallon, compared with an average of 15.8 mpg for trade-ins, a 58 percent improvement.

American companies accounted for all the top-10 traded-in vehicles. The Ford Explorer four-wheel-drive was the most popular, followed by the Ford F-150 Pickup two-wheel-drive, the Jeep Grand Cherokee four-wheel-drive and Ford Explorer two-wheel-drive.

corsair23
08-26-2009, 02:41 PM
Releasing final data, the government said dealers submitted 690,114 vouchers totaling $2.88 billion. New car sales through the program ended late Monday and dealers were allowed to submit paperwork to the government until late Tuesday.

$2.88B/300M = $9.60 per person so it only cost my family $40 to provide 690K + people with part of the $$ for a new car...Excellent

The White House Council of Economic Advisers said the program will boost economic growth in the third quarter by 0.3 to 0.4 percentage points because of the increased auto sales in July and August. An estimated 42,000 jobs will be created or saved during the second half of the year, the White House said.

I'm suspect of this...Didn't the program create a lot of false demand so in the end saying they created or saved 42K jobs IMO is sort of a leap...Maybe they delayed 42K layoffs :confused: - Not a bad thing necessarily but giving all that $$ to GM only delayed the inevitable and IMO they should have just let them fail the first time around...

Red_Chili
08-26-2009, 02:45 PM
Gee, cool, that's like, lessee... 700,000 of our kids contributed $4,115 each so someone else could go in debt for at least 4 years. Not counting the interest on that 4 large. Or the interest the new debtor gets to pay.

I think the real beneficiaries are the banks. The car dealers actually lost service revenue on this one.

Red_Chili
08-26-2009, 02:46 PM
I'm suspect of this...Didn't the program create a lot of false demand so in the end saying they created or saved 42K jobs IMO is sort of a leap...Maybe they delayed 42K layoffs :confused: - Not a bad thing necessarily but giving all that $$ to GM only delayed the inevitable and IMO they should have just let them fail the first time around...
And true to dyed in the wool GM management style, they have ramped up production.

Just in time to watch sales plummet again.

I want a CEO job in the auto industry. Looks to be a low barrier to entry I'm thinkin'... even I could do it.

http://culturespill.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/0_21_caveman_0.jpg


:lmao: :lmao:

nakman
08-26-2009, 03:45 PM
Vehicle sales are going to be so soft for the end of the year it's not even funny. All I can say is there had better not be whining for an additional bailout because "cash for clunkers pulled in too many sales..." :bawl: but hopefully this whole program is looking more and more like a big slap in the face to more folks as the chips fall, I obviously didn't like it and didn't participate, nor do I think it really stimulates the American economy by incenting folks to trade in their Fords for a new Toyota or Honda...


Some more data for you, from the DOT http://www.dot.gov/affairs/2009/dot13309.htm looks like Colorado ranked 25th at just under $38Million.

SteveH
08-26-2009, 04:38 PM
The only spiff I will get from Cash for Clunkers is that I'm going to get the tires, rear shocks and hitch/wiring from my neighbor's (you guessed it) '95 Grand Cherokee before he scraps it under the plan. The shocks should fit my '80 FJ40 (within an inch on either end) and his smallish tires were basically new. This will not cover my children's indebtedness on this (idiot) program.

nuclearlemon
08-26-2009, 05:43 PM
The only spiff I will get from Cash for Clunkers is that I'm going to get the tires, rear shocks and hitch/wiring from my neighbor's (you guessed it) '95 Grand Cherokee before he scraps it under the plan. The shocks should fit my '80 FJ40 (within an inch on either end) and his smallish tires were basically new. This will not cover my children's indebtedness on this (idiot) program.

at least you got that.:rolleyes:

Mendocino
10-06-2009, 09:09 AM
This is from here (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703628304574453280766443704.html#articleTabs%3Darticle).

Clunkers in Practice
One of Washington's all-time dumb ideas.

Remember "cash for clunkers," the program that subsidized Americans to the tune of nearly $3 billion to buy a new car and destroy an old one? Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood declared in August that, "This is the one stimulus program that seems to be working better than just about any other program."

If that's true, heaven help the other programs. Last week U.S. automakers reported that new car sales for September, the first month since the clunker program expired, sank by 25% from a year earlier. Sales at GM and Chrysler fell by 45% and 42%, respectively. Ford was down about 5%. Some 700,000 cars were sold in the summer under the program as buyers received up to $4,500 to buy a new car they would probably have purchased anyway, so all the program seems to have done is steal those sales from the future. Exactly as critics predicted....

Caribou Sandstorm
10-06-2009, 09:17 AM
I don't agree totally...I think the sales put a lot of food and paid a lot of bills for many in the auto industry, that were really hurting..

The money would have been spent by the government on something else, anyway.

I think it was stupid to demolish all the cars and they should have been saved as parts pigs or evaluated as potential cars for sale to folks that just can't qualify or need a car..

I think it is speculation and opinion that folks would have bought the cars anyway.

With 15 million Americans unemployed, record high from 1983, thanks to George Bush's economic strategy...your going to have record lows in car sales..You can't pin this tail on the current donkey because he has only been in office a few months.

donkey..democrat..not bad ha?

nuclearlemon
10-06-2009, 10:18 AM
I don't agree totally...I think the sales put a lot of food and paid a lot of bills for many in the auto industry, that were really hurting..

?

only at the moment...in another month, there's no food on the table again. it was a HUGE waste of taxpayer money.

Bush was an idiot and he screwed the economy, but obama has screwed it three times what bush did.

Caribou Sandstorm
10-06-2009, 10:24 AM
Ige,

No Way can Obama screw up as bad as Bush, yet...

DaveInDenver
10-06-2009, 10:36 AM
From the earlier annual data it did look like the car industry was trending up slightly in sales already coming into the summer. The trend down started for real in March of 2008 and bottomed in about Jan of 2009.

So based on the massive increase in July and August and the resulting major dive down for September the program probably just accelerated sales, but another month or two should really show the trend.

You don't get a change in the demand that increases by double digits without a major shift in the underlying factors. Like you mention unemployment did not decrease, the total measure of money (either M1 or M2) is decreasing indicating that banks are initiating new loans with that FED credit. There is no reason for such a huge increase in auto sales and so the likely explanation is artificial demand from the program that is not sustainable.

14976

The St. Louis FED data goes through August 2009.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/fredgraph.png?&chart_type=line&graph_id=0&category_id=&recession_bars=On&width=630&height=378&bgcolor=%23B3CDE7&graph_bgcolor=%23FFFFFF&txtcolor=%23000000&preserve_ratio=true&id=ALTSALES,&transformation=lin,&scale=Left,&range=5yrs,&cosd=2004-08-01,&coed=2009-08-01,&line_color=%230000FF,&link_values=,&mark_type=NONE,&line_style=Solid,&vintage_date=2009-10-06,&revision_date=2009-10-06,&mma=0,&nd=,&ost=,&oet=

Mendocino
10-06-2009, 10:58 AM
There are many things I think were misguided about this program, one of the biggest is that there is now about $13 billion in additional consumer debt that resulted from Cash for Clunkers. We are in this financial crisis largely because consumers were spending far beyond their means (a gross simplification I know). To institute a program to have consumers further reduce/defer savings AND increase debt is inappropriate.

Red_Chili
10-06-2009, 11:07 AM
I don't disagree with any of those points.

But the trend has actually been for consumers to cut back and increase substantially in savings - not like we will set records, but a definite shift. Finally.

DaveInDenver
10-06-2009, 11:19 AM
With 15 million Americans unemployed, record high from 1983, thanks to George Bush's economic strategy...your going to have record lows in car sales..You can't pin this tail on the current donkey because he has only been in office a few months.
This is not the result of some acute little pet program, there are fundamental problems with the economy. The bulk of our current issues started around Clinton's time politically if you want a discrete instant. But I think when Reagan replaced Volcker (which was a hugely political move for a supposedly apolitical organization) the FED policies reverted definitely to the wrong track. Obama's main mistake is not fixing what Bush screwed up and instead accelerating it.

You don't solve a credit creation crisis by piling on tons and tons of debt. With a monetary system dependent on constant inflation this sets you up for either an uncontrolled inflation or the eventually even more crippling (to over-leveraged debt holders) deflation. No matter, right now you don't want to take on any more over-valued assets on credit than necessary and need to hold onto cash, commodities and sound assets rather than continuing to leverage yourself.

In this case we have a far too inflated credit bubble that distorted valuations badly and those need to be corrected. This problem is not solvable by expanding credit, although that is exactly what Obama is doing. This is reinforced by his reappointment of Bernanke (the one who got us here under Bush!) rather than putting in someone else. It didn't work for Hoover-FDR and won't work for Bush-Obama-The Next Guy. To me it looks like Obama is just trying to paint over the rust and will hope that the car holds together for another few years rather than doing anything to actually fix the problem.

I think that the financial industry (at least parts of it) know this and are doing the right thing. The next few months are going to be ugly for them, damned if they do, damned if they don't. They need to reconcile their balance sheets for the junk loans (unpaid and written off 'toxic' crap) but they need money coming in (interest on loans) to earn anything. That is why the TARP money never made it out, they are trying to find places to put it and until prices and wages realign that's just not going to happen, no demand will be there until people can afford to spend. Deflation and saving need to happen.

DaveInDenver
10-06-2009, 11:29 AM
But the trend has actually been for consumers to cut back and increase substantially in savings - not like we will set records, but a definite shift. Finally.
Amen. From CNN on 9/4/2009.

Caribou Sandstorm
10-06-2009, 11:38 AM
Dave whatever you are doing for work, you are missing your natural calling...You need to be getting paid for this stuff, you are great at research and sharing the info.

We get this leftist weekley rag called "The Week" I am not exactly sure but I bet it leans left. Anyway, they basically collect all the articles and both points of view on political and national issues...

You should be doing this and getting paid for it. IMO.

Red_Chili
10-06-2009, 12:18 PM
...that's just not going to happen, no demand will be there until people can afford to spend. Deflation and saving need to happen.
FWIW... the timing is just about right for a secular deflationary cycle anyway.

The most economic power presidents have (despite getting blamed for bad things and lauded for good things... that have their roots far before the guy getting the attention) is the power to screw it up.

Policies like Cash for Clunkers are a genuine example. We haven't had a president with a sensible economic policy for quite a while now. It is a testament to the American economy that it has done as well as it has despite this.

I hope we don't get to test just how durable that is.

Hulk
10-06-2009, 12:27 PM
FWIW... the timing is just about right for a secular deflationary cycle anyway.

As opposed to a sacred deflationary cycle? :confused::lmao:

Red_Chili
10-06-2009, 12:33 PM
:lmao:
You you you religious nut you. ;-)

Secular as in cyclical, very long term. No idea why the naming convention isn't "cyclical deflationary cycle".

Websters:
3 a : occurring once in an age or a century b : existing or continuing through ages or centuries c : of or relating to a long term of indefinite duration <secular inflation>

Red_Chili
10-06-2009, 12:42 PM
Opinion piece from the Wall St. Journal weighs in (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703628304574453280766443704.html)

Of note:
Remember "cash for clunkers," the program that subsidized Americans to the tune of nearly $3 billion to buy a new car and destroy an old one? Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood declared in August that, "This is the one stimulus program that seems to be working better than just about any other program."


If that's true, heaven help the other programs.



...all the program seems to have done is steal ... sales from the future. Exactly as critics predicted.
According to Hudson Institute economist Irwin Stelzer, at best "the reduction in gasoline consumption will cut our oil consumption by 0.2 percent per year, or less than a single day's gasoline use."

...Burton Abrams and George Parsons of the University of Delaware added up the total benefits found a net cost of roughly $2,000 per vehicle. Rather than stimulating the economy, [I]the program made the nation as a whole $1.4 billion poorer.

...As the journalist Henry Hazlitt wrote in his classic, "Economics in One Lesson," you can't raise living standards by breaking windows so some people can get jobs repairing them.
In the category of all-time dumb ideas, cash for clunkers rivals the New Deal brainstorm to slaughter pigs to raise pork prices. The people who really belong in the junk yard are the wizards in Washington who peddled this economic malarkey.:lmao::p: :o :confused: :( :eek: :mad: :rant::comp:

corsair23
10-07-2009, 05:14 PM
According to a relative of mine in Germany we stole the CFC idea from the Germans :)

Apparently they have been doing something similar for years (haven't looked into it) and is designed to get vehicles 10+ years old off the road and people into something newer and more efficient. As for whether they like the program...I got the impression the answer was no...

Mendocino
10-07-2009, 06:05 PM
The Germans definitely had CFC before we did. They have a big lobby in Mercedes, Audi and Porsche, etc.

According to a relative of mine in Germany we stole the CFC idea from the Germans :)

Apparently they have been doing something similar for years (haven't looked into it) and is designed to get vehicles 10+ years old off the road and people into something newer and more efficient. As for whether they like the program...I got the impression the answer was no...

DaveInDenver
10-07-2009, 07:24 PM
designed to get vehicles 10+ years old off the road
I think this is fairly common in Europe. I understood their way is to make registering old vehicles harder and harder over time.

Groucho
10-08-2009, 06:46 AM
The most economic power presidents have (despite getting blamed for bad things and lauded for good things... that have their roots far before the guy getting the attention) is the power to screw it up.

Policies like Cash for Clunkers are a genuine example. We haven't had a president with a sensible economic policy for quite a while now. It is a testament to the American economy that it has done as well as it has despite this.

I hope we don't get to test just how durable that is.

You know what I think is funny? That the current and past administrations never once have come out and said "you know what? We as a country need to save more. We have been all loosey-goosey with our money for a long time, and now we are behind the rest of the world in terms of real wealth. I am going to put policies in place that will make credit harder to get, and reward savings, instead of the other way around." Real wealth meaning what we can show for what we have earned. All those boats and Cruisers and toys and big fancy homes we only pay interest on can all go away with one click of the mouse these days. What will you have left if you lost your ability to pay your bills tomorrow? No many of us would have much.

Its just funny to hear (especially now) that people are still out racking up credit balances on luxury items left and right. My family and I for at least the past 2.5-3 years now have been putting as much as we can afford to pay down our debt, and we are looking (God willing) to be debt free (with the exception of mortgage) in less than 12 months. Then we can ultimately pay the house off in less than 15 years instead of 30. If I end up at 50 with no house payment, no looming credit balance, I think that I should be set to save for 15+ years. Add in the value of my house (reverse mortgage if necessary) and any other tangible assets I might have, might make retirement manageable even without social security. It sure beats having a mountain of debt at retirement and nowhere from which to pull funds to pay the bills.

But what do I know. I'm the guy who most of my neighbors thinks is poor because I don't get all the new toys.

treerootCO
10-08-2009, 07:50 AM
So printing more money was not a good idea?

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?chart_type=line&width=1000&height=600&preserve_ratio=true&s%5b1%5d%5bid%5d=AMBNS

Mendocino
10-18-2009, 09:48 AM
From the Wall Street Journal yesterday (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704107204574473724099542430.html).:rolleyes:

Cash for Clubbers
Congress's fabulous golf cart stimulus.

We thought cash for clunkers was the ultimate waste of taxpayer money, but as usual we were too optimistic. Thanks to the federal tax credit to buy high-mileage cars that was part of President Obama's stimulus plan, Uncle Sam is now paying Americans to buy that great necessity of modern life, the golf cart. [snip]

DaveInDenver
10-29-2009, 09:35 AM
Cash for Clunkers Results Finally In: Taxpayers Paid $24,000 per Vehicle Sold, Reports Edmunds.com (http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/159446/article.html)

Looks like September numbers are down about 1.5% below predicted, which seems to support the idea that Cash For Clunkers did change to some extent only the timing of purchases. A little dip in June from anticipation and bumps in July and August during sales. October numbers should tell us more.

nakman
11-08-2009, 03:05 PM
one more video.. this time a locked LX450 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0baKq7wXDs&NR=1

corsair23
11-08-2009, 10:29 PM
one more video.. this time a locked LX450 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0baKq7wXDs&NR=1

:bawl: - I could have used some parts off that LX before they clucked it :mad:

SteveH
01-01-2010, 08:14 AM
I found a bottle of 'Engine Seize' in the back seat of a 'Cash For Clunkers' truck at the boneyard. I peeled the label and scanned it. Enjoy.

Your tax dollars at work. Grrr....