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DaveInDenver
08-16-2009, 07:58 AM
So is anyone interested in a multi-mode Kokopelli trip? Vehicles could potentially include 4 or 2 wheels, but the main thing would be a couple of trucks to run sag for the bikes. Would be most likely 2 nights camping, start in Fruita and end in Moab. Would like to keep around 3 bicycles to 1 truck ratio, although more trucks would be alright up to a point. If anyone is interested post up and we'll see what we can work up for time and route and what-not.

60wag
08-16-2009, 08:36 AM
I would love to do it but having burned through just about all of my vacation, this year won't work for me.

DaveInDenver
08-16-2009, 08:54 AM
So when, Bruce? You are one of the main people Nakman had in mind when we talked about it. I did it last the first week of May in 2007 and that was starting to get pretty hot, particularly Yellowjacket Canyon was brutal.

60wag
08-16-2009, 09:00 AM
I have to look at a calendar but how about late Feb or early April?

nakman
08-16-2009, 02:37 PM
early April sounds cool to us.. combination bike/drive, mostly drive, would be the whole family. And we'd have ample space for the gear of full time riders. I've always wanted to do this... let's do it.

treerootCO
08-16-2009, 02:40 PM
http://root45.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=54582

Pics from 2007 when Gary and I ran it.

DaveInDenver
08-16-2009, 04:04 PM
Man, April is so far away! That would be better since Feb would still see lots of snow in the La Sals. What fun would it be to bypass 1/3rd of the trail and not get to descend on Porcupine or take Sand Flats to Slickrock?

Done as a mildly aggressive ride I would plan on two nights on the trail.

Night one would be the Bitter Creek Overlook, roughly just northeast of the West Water put in. This is easy access for trucks and gives the option of Western Rim for the bikes and motos if any are thinking of chasing. Night two probably somewhere around the bottom of Rose Garden Hill or near Onion Creek. That would make the third day sorta long, climbing into Castle Valley and up to Porcupine, but gives time to do the Yellowjacket section and climb to Top of the World. Often guided tours will shuttle the climb from Dewey Bridge up the dirt road, but unless there are enough trucks that might not be possible.

60wag
08-16-2009, 06:01 PM
Root - great pix. That gets me fired up to go out there.

Dave - Yea, April is too far away. I'd rather go in September but staying employed just seems like the right thing to do :) The only part of the trail that I'm familiar with is the part from Rabbit Valley to about the Utah border. I'll go with whatever you rec' for camp destinations.

rover67
08-16-2009, 10:48 PM
I'd be up for it in April.. :)

Caribou Sandstorm
08-16-2009, 11:15 PM
We would be up for April. I might do it again this fall. The only issue with April is going to be the Dolores is way, way high in April, like possibly 6 feet deep....

DaveInDenver
08-17-2009, 07:26 AM
We would be up for April. I might do it again this fall. The only issue with April is going to be the Dolores is way, way high in April, like possibly 6 feet deep....
I believe this is only an issue for the non-singletrack vehicles (i.e. trucks)? If so, then can't you bypass? But I don't know since I've never personally driven the KT, just ridden it on 2 wheels and maybe just can't remember where the Dolores comes into play. You sorta parallel it climbing up from Dewey, but that's a road.

Caribou Sandstorm
08-17-2009, 03:50 PM
Yep, your right Dave, there a go-around section when the Dolores is running full steam.. It is a great trail all around and my wife said she would mtn bike it forsure..

So we would love to join in if there is room.

BLACKGOLD
08-17-2009, 04:44 PM
Myself and a group of friends just did Kokopelli this past May, and I've biked/driven much of it a couple times previously. Trip Report (http://www.wasatchcruisers.org/vbulletinfrm/showthread.php?t=6156)

We only made it as far as Hideout in 3 days of riding...~90 miles ~4600 ft of elevation in 3 days. We did have a 3 day battle with mother nature though.

The beginning in Loma, Mary's Loop is great mountain biking, however the canyon between Mack Ridge, and the eastern-most edge of Rabbit Valley is pretty tough...you just about cannot bike it. We did a lot of hiking our bikes...its steep and loose. Next time I do the trail, I'd probably bypass that 2 miles. There is a ~1-2 mile stretch of singletrack between Cisco Landing and McGraw Bottom that you have to bypass by driving up to Cisco. After Dewey the elevation gains are pretty brutal on a mountain bike if you are not prepared for it. There is also a stretch of the trail near the trailhead for Top of the World that is questionable about whether it is drivable or not (I have different books/maps that describe it both as drivable and not)...I drove it once a year ago, and would never do it again...very narrow, and unforgiving consequences, and this past May it looked more eroded than a year before.

Bitter Creek is a great spot to camp. Hideout Campground down in Fisher Valley is a great campsite as well.

If you need any more info I'd be happy to chime in.

DaveInDenver
08-17-2009, 04:50 PM
Everyone should check out Jeremy's thread, this is what I'm gunning for as The Rising Sun Kokopelli Adventure (TRSKA). The more the merrier!

DaveInDenver
08-17-2009, 04:53 PM
BTW, if you want to read another thread about the Kokopelli, here's the thread I posted about a supported ride I did back in 2007. Also attached the trail profile.

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5968&highlight=bikerpelli

Red_Chili
08-17-2009, 07:36 PM
Sagging sounds like a relaxing way to spend a weekend. Dunno if I will have vacation to burn though!!

nakman
08-17-2009, 09:57 PM
that's sweet- so the sketchy driving portion is Rose Garden hill then, right? I thought that was closed for some reason.. at least it's not part of CM anymore.... :confused:

so the bypass then would be just take the pavement from Dewey Bridge down to Onion creek and then up until the bikes started running into you? more :confused:

BLACKGOLD
08-18-2009, 09:32 AM
that's sweet- so the sketchy driving portion is Rose Garden hill then, right? I thought that was closed for some reason.. at least it's not part of CM anymore.... :confused:

so the bypass then would be just take the pavement from Dewey Bridge down to Onion creek and then up until the bikes started running into you? more :confused:

Pretty much. To Bypass Rose Garden Hill, you have to bypass just about an entire day's worth of the trail (on a bike anyway)...Dewey to Onion Creek Road via HWY 128.

nakman
08-18-2009, 10:38 AM
Pretty much. To Bypass Rose Garden Hill, you have to bypass just about an entire day's worth of the trail (on a bike anyway)...Dewey to Onion Creek Road via HWY 128.

Cool, thanks man. And great pictures by the way, that totally reminded me of my first camping trip to Rabbit Valley with 60wag here, it was raining so hard and the lower parts of the road all had about a foot of water in them.. it was just spectacular driving through there particularly since we had no idea what to expect.

One more question for those who have BTDT: Presuming Rose Garden Hill is bypassed, is the rest of the trail benign enough that a trailer could be taken? I'm not adverse to obstacles, the only real deal killer is a switchback where reverse is required. Not the camper, thinking my utility trailer, which is SOA...

And how does the week of March 27 through April 4 work for everyone who's really interested? Three 3 nights camping on the way, followed by a few days in Moab? Then you get three full weekends when you get back before CM.

BLACKGOLD
08-18-2009, 02:35 PM
We took 3 days, and only made it to Hideout Campground...probably had ~40 miles of "trail" left to get to the end. And the biggest climbs of the trail were still in front of us as well. You'd have to average ~47 miles a day to do the whole thing in 3 days...which is completely possible, but the bikers better be ready for that. We weren't. Plus we had a lot of weather that fought us that weekend.

Regarding the terrain other the RGH. I would suspect you could get a trailer through it all. You could probably get a good trailer down RGH if you knew what you were doing...but I would probably not try it. There might have been a guy on Kurts Expedition Utah forum that did it with a trailer...I'm not sure. I will look for that.

Also, be careful of the dates...realize that you do get up around 8500 feet for some of the trail, and the weather in the LaSal's can be harsh and unpredictable.

Here is a couple files that might be helpful. An article I wrote for our WC Newsletter the year before, and the GPS from the trip. If its confusing LMK...I chopped up the track into little sections of the trail that make sense to me...maybe not to others!?

DaveInDenver
08-18-2009, 02:55 PM
And how does the week of March 27 through April 4 work for everyone who's really interested? Three 3 nights camping on the way, followed by a few days in Moab? Then you get three full weekends when you get back before CM.
That might be a little early. The USFS campgrounds in the La Sals open usually in mid May, but the spring melt seems to usually be pretty well on its way by mid April. Late March could still see the roads closed and Upper Porcupine still snowed in. So bypassing Rose Garden and the La Sals, hmmm. Could just spend 3 days riding around Fruita...

nakman
08-18-2009, 03:18 PM
I was only suggesting early in attempt to quell some of the "it's too close to CM" cries... so IMO this has to be in April then, can't be after Moab that's just too hot plus the rest of the summer is too busy.. and I don't want to wait until next fall. so how about April 11th through the 17th then? Or are you saying we wouldn't be allowed to camp?


edit: Also Jeremy, thanks again for all the info, do you think you or anyone else from Wasatch would want to go with us? Once we decide on a date, of course.. :rolleyes:

DaveInDenver
08-18-2009, 03:50 PM
Or are you saying we wouldn't be allowed to camp?
No, just mentioning the established campgrounds won't open until they are reasonably sure there will be no snow. I think by middle April there should not be too much snow and by Cruise Moab timeframe there will be very little left. Naturally we take the risk of a big snow year anytime planning spring trips in the mountain. I think around April 13th would be probably fine.

nakman
08-18-2009, 04:19 PM
One other thought on dates is just combine the timing with Cruise Moab... leave Loma Saturday the 24th, then roll into Moab by Tuesday or Wednesday. That date would exclude anyone who wanted to go to Moab early to prerun & help setup, but that also would make for a pretty dang cool vacation.. plus it would only be a week off of work for both.

DaveInDenver
08-18-2009, 04:35 PM
One other thought on dates is just combine the timing with Cruise Moab... leave Loma Saturday the 24th, then roll into Moab by Tuesday or Wednesday. That date would exclude anyone who wanted to go to Moab early to prerun & help setup, but that also would make for a pretty dang cool vacation.. plus it would only be a week off of work for both.
I rode the Kokopelli the weekend of CM in 2007 (see write-up link earlier). No snow and definitely not cold. It was a little muddy still on Upper Porcupine, but hard to say that wasn't just from rain. I think either plan would be workable, either as an extended CM pre-run or a stand alone trip.

Hulk
08-19-2009, 12:52 AM
I might be in for next spring. I'd love to mountain bike it. My bike is a hard tail with a decent shock up front -- think that would be OK?

rover67
08-19-2009, 08:48 AM
mine's a single speed hard tail that will probably have a rigid front by then and i'm gonna go for it!

nakman
08-19-2009, 09:07 AM
Well mine's a full suspension that tends to do more hanging in the garage than anything lately... and I'm still in. But realistically my expectation is drive the whole way, and if there's a few fun miles where someone else can drive my rig then ok I'll ride my bike for a bit, but my role in this is more support vehicle than anything. :)


So you guys all good with making this be the "long way to Cruise Moab" run? If so I say we get the hammer and chisel out..

DaveInDenver
08-19-2009, 09:11 AM
mine's a single speed hard tail that will probably have a rigid front by then and i'm gonna go for it!
What's the longest ride you've done on that?

I ask because consider that it will be 3 back-to-back-to-back >45 mile days. Takes me about a total of 24 hours of actual cycling to ride it, usually about 7, 10 and 7 hours days when stopping for lunch and sightseeing. That assumes decent weather.

The first day would be fairly short distance (if you skip Western Rim, about 30 miles) but Mary's Loop to Rabbit Valley is a fairly technical ride. With Western Rim (which I highly recommend), it's about 42 miles.

Depending on the schedule, the second day will be about 60 miles total (you can bypass Yellow Jacket to cut off about 6 miles) with the Dewey to Top of the World climb (6 miles, 1500'). There are some very long flat sections where you are spun out in big ring out near Cisco, too.

The last day would be 45 miles long with about 20 miles and 4500' of climbing total. If you do Porcupine, then it's also a pretty technical day. If not, going down Sand Flats, then it would mostly just smooth roads. Could add Slickrock in that case, though.

I am not discouraging you, plenty of people do it on rigid one speeds, but gears and squish might make it less of a death march. Don't misunderstand, I've done 18 hour races and Jeffco trails on my singlespeed. No way my knees and back would take Kokopelli on it, though (and it has a front shock!).

rover67
08-19-2009, 09:33 AM
I dunno, 30 miles and 3000 feet of climbing in a day followed by a few more days of 20-24 mile rides with 2000 feet of elevation gain? Lots'a stuff in winter park, crested butte, and breckenridge and some small peices of the colorado trail. Maybe Kokopeli is too much? I've never ridden a geard bike out here (west of the Ms. River) so i have a hard time comparing but i know it sucks sometimes when everybody is rolling in the big ring and I am kinda coasting along.

DaveInDenver
08-19-2009, 09:42 AM
Maybe Kokopeli is too much?
Probably not a problem for you. I just must suck worse than I thought. :-) I roll a 26" wheeled, 5" travel, 27 hard-working-geared bike for 95.73% of my rides. Bear Creek, sure on one, but otherwise I curl up and cry like a little girl after about 20 miles without suspension or gears.

DaveInDenver
08-19-2009, 09:47 AM
So you guys all good with making this be the "long way to Cruise Moab" run? If so I say we get the hammer and chisel out..
I wasn't planning on CM next year, so whatever is fine. Does that mean Kokopelli would be the weekend before CM or during the week leading up to it? I would prefer for it to span the weekend days for accrued (or lack there-of) of vacation time.

nakman
08-19-2009, 10:24 AM
Dates: yes, weekend, leaving Saturday 4/24 am when it's still dark out... meet at City Market in Fruita at 10:00? That's presuming CM starts Wednesday 4/28 which I don't believe is official yet but I'd be surprised if it wasn't.

DaveInDenver
08-19-2009, 10:35 AM
Nice, big April 2010 calendar.

13413

nakman
08-19-2009, 10:47 AM
Nice, big April 2010 calendar.



Ok it's so much clearer now...

Hulk
08-19-2009, 10:52 AM
I like this plan: combining CM with the Kokopelli Trail. I'm going to start riding more!

Caribou Sandstorm
08-19-2009, 11:03 AM
There are also a few sections folks can hike, like up to the Top of the World".

Last Sept. Melinda hiked this section 7 months pregnant and it was a really a nice hike.

Here is a link to 2 video's of our kokopelli run via Toyota Trail Teams. Look how low the Dolores was in September.

http://www.toyotatrailteams.com/ Then click on video's and the two kokopelli video's..If you are interested scroll down and see a great video of Robbie and the Rubicon the year we all did it.

Also here is a link to two threads and link to Woody's pics on Ih8mud with great pics of the trail..

http://www.fjcruiserforums.com/forums/en-route-completed-expeditions/86214-kokopelli-expedition-may-2009-lots-o-pics-vids.html

http://gallery.ih8mud.com/thumbnails.php?album=71

http://www.fjcruiserforums.com/forums/en-route-completed-expeditions/70251-live-kokopelli-trail-team-2008-a.html

I have a loaded e-mail with many maps and GPS of the trail also, send me a pm of your e-mail and I will forward to you.

If anyone can pull off a pre-run this fall, I would be way into that. Sept/Oct. Meet in Fruita early Friday morning, 9:00AM and be home late Sunday night.

BLACKGOLD
08-19-2009, 12:11 PM
Question: The water crossing in the video's, and a few guys have asked/mentioned about it...where is that? I've done the trail a couple times and never had a water crossing in my path. Other than being caught in a flash flood up on Yellow Jacket of course.

DaveInDenver
08-19-2009, 12:36 PM
If anyone can pull off a pre-run this fall, I would be way into that. Sept/Oct. Meet in Fruita early Friday morning, 9:00AM and be home late Sunday night.
FWIW, I am trying to pull off a pre-run this fall. Looking like it could be around October 16 or so. It would be a bike trip, self supported (pulling my trailer), but if someone wanted to drive it that would be fine. I'd be following the bike route as much as possible rather than the double tracks.

Caribou Sandstorm
08-19-2009, 02:05 PM
Dave do you have a driver for your truck already? err..just re-read your post

I would be into bumping into you off and on during the day as our trails crossed and camping together at night. I would drive my FJ.

The timing is good as Columbus day is the following Monday. I am not sure if I have that day off but doesn't matter for me too much, I have customers on the western slope I can see on my way home.

Sounds like the makings of a pre-run...Weren't you and I trying to do this once before?? I bet we could corral Antonson and a few others to tag along

Today is such a beautiful day and I am finally moved into the Davis-Ponderosa...All I can think about is getting out on the trail, especially after sampling those Trail Teams vidoes again..

cruiseroutfit
09-18-2009, 12:47 AM
Question: The water crossing in the video's, and a few guys have asked/mentioned about it...where is that? I've done the trail a couple times and never had a water crossing in my path. Other than being caught in a flash flood up on Yellow Jacket of course.

Ditto, I know where the Delores fords are but they are not part of the recognized Kokopelli 4x4 Trail? Easily added as a side trip of course.

Re: Spring time trips. We ran it over Easter this past spring, the Delores optional crossings were too deep to cross, the La Sals were very wet (muddy) to the point mtn bikers had resorted to walking with their bikes over their shoulders. With the exception of mud there were no downfalls to a spring trip, but a wet winter could make it pretty impassible over the La Sal portion.

There are a ton of trip reports and beta threads on ExpeditionUtah.com (http://www.expeditionutah.com) and we are working on a Feature Trail writeup on our landing page - Kokopelli Trail (http://www.expeditionutah.com/featured-trails/)

subzali
10-20-2009, 11:15 AM
so where are we with this idea? I may be interested...just trying to decide if I want to take my 2000 Gary Fisher hardtail (80mm travel front shock - original to bike, never been serviced :o) on this trip...

...my buddy and I rode Porcupine Rim this past CM on 5 and 6" (I was on a Titus El Guapo) travel bikes and that completely wore us out...

Still not 100% sure I can go, but just trying to keep the thread alive and see where it's at...

DaveInDenver
10-20-2009, 11:23 AM
I dunno that anything has been settled. I actually sort of assumed that it was backburnered for the moment. Right now I am basically committed to Tuscon in February for the 24 Hours of the Old Pueblo for my vacation next year. We'd probably stop and ski Monarch one day and visit a buddy in Salida. A couple of days in Tucson and maybe a ski or bike day on the return leg depending on route and weather. That means that Cruise Moab is a no-go for me next year, although a long weekend on the Kokopelli could probably be squeezed in. If the trip needs to be tied with CM, then it would need to be the weekend before for me, I can't commit to a mid-week trip.

nakman
10-20-2009, 03:24 PM
We're still interested, but yeah kind of too early to commit. We're also going to Minnesota next year for a family vacation, plus if there's a different family RS road trip then it may get the nod over this one. And honestly that's all we're after anyways, a fun RS family road trip.. I do want to do the Kokopelli though.

Hulk
10-20-2009, 10:32 PM
I'm still up for this, if we have a group that wants to go.