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View Full Version : stripped hub, er drive flange studs


nakman
09-08-2009, 11:50 PM
I stripped 3 of those things last Saturday on the 80. I wanted to tighten a wheel bearing that had a little clunk to it, and when putting the drive flange back on, the nut just ate the threads of the stud right off. I had a couple spares, and promptly installed a new stud and with very little torque, it just kept on spinning. So I installed my last spare, and this time used a new cone washer, new washer washer, and new nut. Got it down to 20 pounds and all seemed ok. Took it up to 26 and it was obvious it was stripping, kept turning but torque wrench wouldn't click. So I stopped before it got worse, like the last two... :mad:

When replacing the stripped one, the other 5 were already torqued to 26. These were all new Toyota parts, granted I'd had them for a few years. One theory is that they're just a "bad batch." Any other thoughts? Just seems odd to strip these things. Is WD-40 bad for them? I did squirt a bunch to get the first one out. :confused: that's all I know...

Why shouldn't I just order up some bolts and be done with those things? That would certainly make flange/cone washer removal easier..

TIMZTOY
09-09-2009, 12:29 AM
wd40 is crap but shouldn't hurt anything. Next time use pb blaster life will be easer. Odds are the hub is partially striped. The studs are fine for sitting for a year. Odds are they'll sit on the parts shelf for years at a time. Take a really close look at the hole they thread Into I assume your tourquing the stud into the hub b4 putting the nut on ? There is a rather easy trick to removing the cone washers I spent amost afull day ****ing with one side the first time taking one apart. Then I called toyota and was like duuhhh when I herd how to do it.

powderpig
09-09-2009, 07:19 AM
Hey Tim, the book all for 24(at least the one I have), I do not usually go past 22 ftlbs. In the way past the book called for 18ftlb up until the 80 series came out(materials got better). I think 26 ftlb is a bucket load for this little bitty stud.
I can look at a up grade when I call Dan today. See if he can get the parts.
I will talk more on this later, Robbie

Uncle Ben
09-09-2009, 08:35 AM
I would Heli-coil and start again!

nakman
09-09-2009, 09:08 AM
:kevin:: It's not the hub that's stripped, it's the little studs that keep stripping. Helicoils are for ID threads and wouldn't help here.

Timz: I double nutted the stud then it bottomed out in the hole in the hub, but no I didn't torque it. What would I torque it to? Not sure how that makes a difference here my issue is with the other end of the stud- the one that pokes through the flange, not the one that bottoms out in the hub. I only had WD40 since I was in a parking lot in Telluride, and used it mainly to blast crap out of the hole before threading a new stud in. Actually didn't even apply any to the threads.

:robbie: thanks, curious what ol' Dan says.. and torque spec is 26 per the 96 book...

rover67
09-09-2009, 09:10 AM
It was the stud itself that the nut was pulling the threads off of.. not the studs pulling from the hub. I'll look to see what the 60 series manual calls for out of curiosity tonight.. they looked like they were similar in size at least.

edit: posted that while Tim was posting... sorry for the double.

Red_Chili
09-09-2009, 09:12 AM
A very worthy upgrade would be hardened studs, available lots of places (including www.frontrangeoffroadfab.com).

Do NOT, repeat NOT use bolts. Once you learn the cone magic, and make friends with AntiSeize, studs are actually easier anyway.

leiniesred
09-09-2009, 09:14 AM
I'm pretty darn sure my ARP hub studs hold up just fine to 25+ ft/lbs.

I don't know if they are actually any stronger than stock. I never broke any.

DaveInDenver
09-09-2009, 09:40 AM
I would Heli-coil and start again!
We use Heli-Coil threadserts here to put threads into our aluminum enclosures. If it's good enough for something highly reliable for space, probably worthy of use on a Toyota. I've personally used Time-Serts and Heli-Coils with success.

nakman
09-09-2009, 09:43 AM
Ok so for $69 I can get 12 new studs http://frontrangeoffroadfab.com/nfoscomm/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=58&osCsid=cfc972d6a83b32f0a844e29fb8a35904 that's actually probably not any more than the OEM ones, I seem to remember them not being free..

http://frontrangeoffroadfab.com/nfoscomm/catalog/images/axle-rope-057_main.jpg?osCsid=cfc972d6a83b32f0a844e29fb8a35904

DaveInDenver
09-09-2009, 09:53 AM
AFAIK ARP makes the Front Range studs (this is good). FWIW, 8mm 170ksi studs are recommended to be torqued to 25 ft-lbf by ARP using 30 weight oil as lube or 20 ft-lbf with moly. I do 15 ft-lbf on OE with anti-seize, but then again I have half the engine and IFS. If you go with higher grade bolts (190 ksi), ARP recommends 28 ft-lbf with 30 weight or 22 ft-lbf with moly. The most ARP recommends is 25 ft-lbf with moly and 32 ft-lbf with 30 weight and that's for 220 ksi fasteners. Those torques put 6,250 lbf, 7,000 lbf and 7,800 lbf clamping on the joint respectively.

BTW, Marlin also sells the OE parts. The studs are $0.80/each and the whole assembly is about $5.50 for stud, cone, nut and flat washer. The cone is the expensive part, $3.50.

And finally, the stud is 8mmx1.25x41mm, if you want to buy them piecewise. A&A Trading post used to have them, although I have not bought any lately and they reorganized. You can find general purpose studs, like the ARP, in various grades (even stainless) at any speed shop.

wesintl
09-09-2009, 10:54 AM
Are you using the gun on them?

nakman
09-09-2009, 11:12 AM
Are you using the gun on them?

I was using it to run them down, but stopped before they bottomed out with the washer. On the old ones with road crap in the threads it definitely takes more force to drive that nut on, but I wouldn't just impact past the junk I'll always back it off then blast with more WD-40. Plus the area that's stripping is a cleaner area, under the nut.

But keep in mind two of the ones that stripped in Telluride were brand new, I had to rip a bag open to remove them. So no road grime, whatsoever.. and I ran it down to the washer with my fingers, the only wrench used was a torque wrench- I have been thinking maybe put the center caps back on, but then I don't know what difference that would make based on the experience with the brand new studs.

corsair23
09-09-2009, 11:19 AM
Tim,

How did they strip in the first place or how did you notice they were stripped? Are these nuts that you tend to "hit" with the torque wrench after each wheeling trip to check them? No clue on why the new ones strip but interested in the solution in case I ever run into this :thumb:

nakman
09-09-2009, 12:05 PM
They stripped when I was putting my drive flange back on.. yes I have hit them with a torque wrench in the past after a lot of wheeling just to check them, and yeah some have been a little loose. For example after Rubicon I checked all of them, on your ride home as well as mine, and every nut took about a 1/8 turn. Some of that may have been the gasket squishing, some may be the stud stretching.. but I'm going to be tough to convince they're over torqued.. I'm thinking of buying a new torque wrench though, just cause...

corsair23
09-09-2009, 12:20 PM
I was wondering...Not sure what the difference is in the movement of those nuts from say 22 ft/lbs to 26 ft/lbs is but I suspect not much :dunno: - Add in how much the torque wrench will move the nut before it "clicks" and maybe they are getting stretched, ever so slightly each time? Of course that does nothing to explain why the new studs stripped so quickly :confused:

What about a drop or two of blue locktite on each nut, torque to 26 ft/lbs, and when checking them down the road not using the torque wrench but just a standard socket or wrench? Just tossing out ideas. You've worked around those studs and nuts a lot more than I have :D

rover67
09-09-2009, 12:34 PM
I'm thinking of buying a new torque wrench though, just cause...


that's a good idea there...

or check it against another.
or get it calibrated or checked...

Uncle Ben
09-09-2009, 12:49 PM
Even stock those studs are black oxide coated which makes them a hardened stud. There is no way in Heck they should strip especially if they are new. I highly suspect cross threaded holes or worn out thread in the holes. There just is not much difference between 24#'s vrs even 30# of torque in a bottomed out bolt. (bottomed against the bottom or the un-treaded shank) The reason they loosened in the first place is the bore threads are not holding. Heli-coil is a permanent repair! I know I have the kit for 8mmx1.25 Heli-Coil so you can save about $50 if ya want to use it. You would just need to go to NAPA or ?????? and get the inserts.

60wag
09-09-2009, 01:27 PM
I was there participating in the strippage and was baffled. We threaded a NEW stud into the hole, spun a nut on by hand over the flat washer and cone washer. Snugged the nut with fingers. It went on easy, no binding of the threads at all. Took a torque wrench to it and started at 15lb, then 20lb, then 24lb. The other five old studs took the 24 just fine, the one new stud clicked the torque wrench at 20 but stripped before 24. The threads came off the stud, not out of the nut. I think the studs were defective.

Red_Chili
09-09-2009, 01:52 PM
I
What about a drop or two of blue locktite on each nut, torque to 26 ft/lbs, and when checking them down the road not using the torque wrench but just a standard socket or wrench?
Don't do dat. The problem is not so much a 'loosening' (rotating) nut as it is stretched studs due to applied force and metal fatigue. If you Loctite it you've done nothing about the stretching stud. Then if you check it with a wrench you just undid your Loctite.

Think about it: those six studs move your whole 80 down the road (OK, with two locating dowels). They go, you're done. ARP (or equivalent) are a small investment for a part that will not strip, will not loosen (come with locking nuts, 13mm wrench but oh well), and are crawler proven. If you bust those, you can add more of the locating pins using lots of kits out there. Then the flange itself becomes the fuse (DAMHIK), and though popping splines won't damage a hardened axle (again, DAMHIK), it will possibly destroy a stocker or render it weaker due to damage. So you can buy hardened flanges too.

Not that you need all that. But it does demonstrate the failure points in a floating Toyota axle, in what order, and why. You are somewhere in the middle maybe. So is the Chili, and I've popped a flange as you've guessed but never a stud (changed to Aisins with Long hub gears, so that won't happen. Something else will :lmao:).

Toss the OEM, JMHO.

DaveInDenver
09-09-2009, 02:09 PM
ARP (or equivalent) are a small investment for a part that will not strip, will not loosen (come with locking nuts, 13mm wrench but oh well), and are crawler proven.

Toss the OEM, JMHO.
I don't argue that the ARP studs are an upgrade over the OE ones, but the Toyota or equivalent parts are fine for stockish trucks and a batch of defective parts can happen to anyone. Now the argument of value is different, spending $70 should upgrade you over the stock, but if all you need is one $1 stud to match the other 5, it's easy to find a place to spend $69 elsewhere. Beer, beer, beer.

Rzeppa
09-09-2009, 07:55 PM
I would Heli-coil and start again!

BTDT with the FFs one the rear of my HZJ75. Once those suckers are "wallered" it will happen again. And again. I used to carry what I called my "axle kit" when I had that truck. Left handed drill bits, extractors, heli coil kit, new studs, cone washers, etc.

The problem with helicoils is mainly that they don't have as many threads as stock. They are good for a lot of things, but in my first hand experience they don't hold up to hard wheeling for hub studs.

The only real solution is a new hub. Some of my friends from down under wrote about redrilling and tapping for 10mm unbreakos, and Rob Mullen wrote that redrilling the holes for the dowel pins, and increasing the size of the dowel pins.

But yeah, my strong advice is just get new (to you) used hubs off parted out rig.

wesintl
09-09-2009, 08:02 PM
just in time for olegs big sale :D

nakman
09-09-2009, 09:25 PM
Again, my hubs are fine. I don't need a helicoil. it's the stud that goes into the hub.

Rzeppa
09-12-2009, 12:11 AM
Again, my hubs are fine. I don't need a helicoil. it's the stud that goes into the hub.

Didn't get that right away. Want a new stud? I have a stash quicker than they can bring one (or six) into Denver. Gimme a hollar if you need a new stud (cone washers and split washers here too.

Happy cruisin'!

powderpig
09-12-2009, 01:22 PM
The studs that Jeff is refering to can be had from Toyota along with all the other goodies(dowels, cones, flats). They come on the 100 series. Maybe Christo will speak up. Did we not do this on some one truck many years ago.
I had Dan look at the gaskets and see if they will swap, they will not directly swap leading him to believe that the hubs maybe slightly bigger on the 100 or 105 in the rest of the world.
Anyhow the drive flanges would need to be re worked to hold the bigger cone washer. I was thinking that maybe the drive flange would fit, but again Dan did not think this would work because of the way the bolt pattern was(both flange gaskets had 6 holes). Anyhow this upgrade if you bought both flanges and studs, cones, washer, nuts would set you back about 170.00. A lot less if you were just buying studs, washers, cone washers, nuts.

Not to bad if you could make it work.

nakman
09-14-2009, 11:27 AM
I am just going to order some more Toyota studs, and chalk this up for the time being to a bad batch of studs. I'll order them from a different dealer then the first, just in case that'll make a difference.

So Robbie are you talking about putting 100 series studs/cones/etc. on an 80? I didn't know this was an option... I'm going to see how the replacement stock 80 ones do before I switch anything. I'm also going to coordinate this with new brake pads & resurfacing my front rotors so it may be a bit, and of course I'll continue to wheel & drive on 5 studs in the interim :hill: