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RicardoJM
09-22-2009, 09:08 AM
Since getting my FJ40 I've learned a bunch from others in the club and thought you'd appreciate hearing about our mini adventure yesterday. Keeping in mind that if it had occurred two years ago, I would have towed the Bronco to the nearest repair shop and not have been able to do what we did.

Yesterday evening Rick called to say he had lost the clutch on the Bronco. I've really learned a bunch over the last year. I better understand the clutch system and how the parts work together and what to look for. When I arrived and checked it out, it was just as described; the clutch pedal went right to the floor board and there was no engagement/disengagement to be felt. Before getting off the phone w/ Rick I discussed with him how to check the reservoir, while en-route he called to say it was empty and that the manual indicated DOT 3 brake fluid. I picked up some fluid and it turns out the reservoir was low, but not empty. There is a rubber boot that sits under the cap and you have to remove it to check the fluid level.

We topped off the reservoir and pumped the clutch pedal a bunch. The fluid level dropped very slightly and I could feel the engagement/disengagement. Next we got under the truck to look for signs of a big spill and could see very slight weeping of brake fluid - so there is a leak that we need to figure out. While under there, I removed the inspection boot and had Rick push in the clutch pedal while I watched. I could see the clutch plate moving in and out. We buttoned everything up and were able to get it home. :thumb:

Last night we went through the Haynes/Chilton procedures for bleeding the clutch system followed by a test drive. Rick indicates that while shifting is smooth, the clutch engagement position is much closer to the floorboard than it used to be. When I checked this morning, the clutch pedal was firm and the fluid level had not dropped. He has fluid and the tools needed to bleed the system and will keep an eye on it as he moves between home, school and work today.

I did some research on fullsizebronco and some have had difficulty (i.e. they had to do it multiple times) in bleeding all the air out of the clutch system. This is the "newer" hydraulic system where the slave sylinder is inside the transmission housing. For those of you with Ford experience, what is your method/approach for bleeding the clutch system on the 90's vintage Fords with the internal slave cylinder?

Uncle Ben
09-22-2009, 09:17 AM
Can you see the bleeder? Fluid doesn't just evaporate! I'm guessing the slave is needing some attention. Sometimes rapid peddle movement will move the bubbles to the top of the slave so they can be bled out.

nakman
09-22-2009, 09:24 AM
That's cool you were wise enough to find a way to drive it home.. and bet if you keep it topped off most of the air will eventually work itself out. You've still got a problem, but heck how many of us have driven for months, even years, routinely topping off a known issue? :hill: I'm sure you won't wait that long...

But hey I think this one would look sweet in your driveway as a parts truck http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/1384734720.html

RicardoJM
09-22-2009, 10:08 AM
Can you see the bleeder?

Yes, we can get to the bleeder just fine. The book procedure starts with a gravity fill with the bleeder open, followed by 5 cycles of 10 pumps (checking the fluid level after each cycle) and ends with slightly cracking the bleeder with the clutch slightly depressed.

We skipped the first step as the level was low and not empty. As I recall the in the last step, Rick described the discharge as misty spray. I think we need to iterate through the process until we get to the point where that last discharge is fluid. We'll be giving it another go this evening.

RicardoJM
09-22-2009, 10:20 AM
That's cool you were wise enough to find a way to drive it home.. and bet if you keep it topped off most of the air will eventually work itself out. You've still got a problem, but heck how many of us have driven for months, even years, routinely topping off a known issue? :hill: I'm sure you won't wait that long...

But hey I think this one would look sweet in your driveway as a parts truck http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/1384734720.html

Yeah, it is very cool to know and be able to deal with a situation like this.

I do want to diagnose the problem as I think it is one that has been there for a very long time. IIRC, I've replaced the slave cylinder 4 times, over the 13 years and 120k or so miles. I know that parts don't last forever, but I have a nagging feeling that 4 slave cylinder failures is on the high end of normal. Because the slave resides inside the housing, replacing it involves removing the transmission. I'd like to know that this time around I find the underlying problem and get it fixed. I suspect it is the connection between the slave and the hydraulic line.

No comment on the parts truck. :D

rover67
09-22-2009, 10:45 AM
Cool that you guys were able to fix it and get home!

I had to pour water into my old Mini's clutch reservior to get it home when it overextended and puked the guts out of the slave. It worked!

That slave was bolted to the bell housing with one 1/4 - 20 bolt in tension (in the aluminum housing non the less) when the clutch was pressed.. it just stripped. Gotta love the Brits!

I got no idea on that bronco though

theboomboom
09-22-2009, 11:47 AM
That's cool you were wise enough to find a way to drive it home.. and bet if you keep it topped off most of the air will eventually work itself out. You've still got a problem, but heck how many of us have driven for months, even years, routinely topping off a known issue? :hill: I'm sure you won't wait that long...

But hey I think this one would look sweet in your driveway as a parts truck http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/1384734720.html

That truck does have the ZF5, an external slave cylinder would the shiz at a time like now...

Oh and i made it to school okay, headin to work a little after two. Engagement is still very near the floor, however i've found that by pumping the pedal with the trans in neutral, I'm able to recover usage.

RicardoJM
09-22-2009, 12:20 PM
Oh and i made it to school okay, headin to work a little after two. Engagement is still very near the floor, however i've found that by pumping the pedal with the trans in neutral, I'm able to recover usage.

No Comment on different truck.

Good to hear. We probably still have some air to get out of the system and it should get better after we go through the bleeding process again tonight.

wesintl
09-22-2009, 12:39 PM
I'm still not a fan of kylie orton :eek:

Uncle Ben
09-22-2009, 01:30 PM
I'm still not a fan of kylie orton :eek:

Did ya "pick the wrong week to stop sniffin' glue" (http://www.killerclips.com/clip.php?id=128&qid=1585)again Wes?

RicardoJM
09-22-2009, 02:07 PM
I'm still not a fan of kylie orton :eek:

Did ya "pick the wrong week to stop sniffin' glue" (http://www.killerclips.com/clip.php?id=128&qid=1585)again Wes?

It's geek humor Uncle Ben - had me :lmao:.

TIMZTOY
09-22-2009, 02:48 PM
Did the pedal feel the same before replacing the slave the other times ? And is a low pedel the reason for the other replacements ? After having replaced the slave the other times, did the oedel feel normal and high again ? Are you replacing with remanufaxtured units or new? The slave could be bad if rebuilt parts. There might be a adjustment on the clutch pedel shaft that goes into the master. The master could be leaking internally not allowing pressure build up. All these are not diags but general reasons to having a low pedel. Also the rubber hose could easlly be streched out and bad odds are it's never been replaced. I'd start with a new hose. I also know some fords with internal slaves have that goofy connection and that's a very problematic slave. And needs to be replaced often.

wesintl
09-22-2009, 03:12 PM
Did ya "pick the wrong week to stop sniffin' glue" (http://www.killerclips.com/clip.php?id=128&qid=1585)again Wes?

He's a bronco and he definitely needs work:lmao::hill:
:thumb:

Uncle Ben
09-22-2009, 03:14 PM
He's a bronco and he definitely needs work:lmao::hill:
:thumb:

Ya....and..... :rolleyes: Got the reference pretty quick....just wondered if that hurt a little thinking outside the box! ;) :lmao::lmao: :hill:

wesintl
09-22-2009, 03:22 PM
it's only difficult if you have a big box..

Uncle Ben
09-22-2009, 03:32 PM
it's only difficult if you have a big box..

:eek: :bolt:

wesintl
09-22-2009, 03:33 PM
ha :D

RicardoJM
09-22-2009, 03:57 PM
Did the pedal feel the same before replacing the slave the other times ? And is a low pedel the reason for the other replacements ? After having replaced the slave the other times, did the oedel feel normal and high again ? Are you replacing with remanufaxtured units or new? The slave could be bad if rebuilt parts. There might be a adjustment on the clutch pedel shaft that goes into the master. The master could be leaking internally not allowing pressure build up. All these are not diags but general reasons to having a low pedel. Also the rubber hose could easlly be streched out and bad odds are it's never been replaced. I'd start with a new hose. I also know some fords with internal slaves have that goofy connection and that's a very problematic slave. And needs to be replaced often.

Keeping in mind I know loads more now. The first time I noticed a low pedal for a week or two before I lost the clutch. I was fishing at Deckers and made the drive home in second gear. Had it towed to the dealer who put in a new clutch and slave cylinder. The other replacements were proceeded by low pedal and I took it in before losing the clutch. Last April, we had the low pedal and trouble shifting so I had a new clutch and slave put in.

I don't know what part has been put in during the past replacements, i.e. the shop put in what they bought. Rick found this tech article (http://www.thedieselstop.com/faq/9497faq/tsb/tsb/files/972217.pdf) that seems to be relevant and it specifies a replacement part number. If I have to replace the slave again it will be with F87Z-7A508-AA.

IIRC the line between the master and slave is hard, not rubber but will check this tonight. Rick and I will be figuring out how to zero in on the source of the leak and once identified we'll know what to do. Even if it turns out that the slave has gone bad, I do believe that at a minimum we will get a new connection from the master to the slave and the beefed up replacement part. I really would like to put this re-occurring issue to rest once and for all.

Uncle Ben
09-22-2009, 04:14 PM
I really would like to put this re-occurring issue to rest once and for all.

There is only one way.......

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t215/4swoger19t/FordLogo.jpg

RicardoJM
09-22-2009, 04:43 PM
There is only one way.......

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t215/4swoger19t/FordLogo.jpg

I know, I know get a





































wait for it Kevin...



















mini-truck

Uncle Ben
09-22-2009, 04:48 PM
I know, I know get a




wait for it Kevin...




mini-truck


Mo-betta! :thumb::thumb: Get two....they make nice slippers! :p: :hill:

RicardoJM
09-22-2009, 08:08 PM
Just finished bleeding it again and it is much better. Rick says it back to normal feel.

Air Randy
09-22-2009, 11:08 PM
And, if you have to replace the slave again for some reason you may want to consider not replacing the clutch disk and pressure plate. It sounds like those have been replaced numerous times already. Unless you have a severe slippage issue a plate & disk should last for 100K miles.

The logic the first time you replaced the slave would be to replace the p plate and disc at the same time since you had to drop the tranny. But unless the disc is really scored or the slutch is slipping, no need to replace those parts again.

TIMZTOY
09-23-2009, 01:32 PM
a perminant fix would be to swap In a new/diffrent tranny. one with a external slave. Most if those internal slaves have to be replaced often. As it's a defective design from the factory because if the high caliper of engenners they have over at the ford design labs. They must have been smoking bad grass to put a Internal slave. It's not like there's no room it's a damn bronco for Christ sakes

theboomboom
09-23-2009, 02:23 PM
a perminant fix would be to swap In a new/diffrent tranny. one with a external slave. Most if those internal slaves have to be replaced often. As it's a defective design from the factory because if the high caliper of engenners they have over at the ford design labs. They must have been smoking bad grass to put a Internal slave. It's not like there's no room it's a damn bronco for Christ sakes

AGREED! A ZF5 is a popular swap as they were found in the F-250+ during the same era, and they have an external slave. The clutch felt like it had taken in more air into the line again today :( It's really going to be a pain bleeding the system every day until we get this sorted out...

TIMZTOY
09-23-2009, 10:05 PM
checkthat flex line. There should be one to allow for the vibration movement of the motor on the mounts.

nakman
09-30-2009, 11:47 AM
Hey Rick he's down to $2500 now.. http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/1399420889.html :D

theboomboom
09-30-2009, 03:28 PM
Hey Rick he's down to $2500 now.. http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/1399420889.html :D

:eek: haha not in a million years. wherever it was leaking, it seems to have more or less sealed itself. haven't had to add any more fluid or do any more bleeding. how long will that last? who knows... but at least it seems to be holding for now.

RicardoJM
09-30-2009, 03:46 PM
Hey Rick he's down to a semester of tuition and books now.. http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/1399420889.html :D

:eek: Nice but I really need to focus on more important things now. wherever it was leaking, it seems to have more or less sealed itself. haven't had to add any more fluid or do any more bleeding. how long will that last? who knows... but at least it seems to be holding for now -my dad is a great guy

Fixed these two posts for you two clowns.:thumb:

wesintl
09-30-2009, 04:45 PM
I see the boom boom driving and posting more about the cruiser then ricardo...hummm

RicardoJM
09-30-2009, 05:25 PM
I see the boom boom driving and posting more about the cruiser then ricardo...hummm

Driving time facts are: Saturday I left the house at 7:00 for the 40's Only Run and didn't return until 8:30 that evening. TheBoomBoom took the 40 to Chinaman on Sunday, left the house at noon and was back by 8:00.

wesintl
09-30-2009, 05:28 PM
what about yesterday or the day before? I was coming home from work and saw him puttin round.

RicardoJM
09-30-2009, 05:46 PM
what about yesterday or the day before? I was coming home from work and saw him puttin round.

Maybe it was his younger brother. Come to think of it, his younger brother did talk him into running to the store for candy Monday night...

wesintl
09-30-2009, 05:55 PM
dang.. there is more than one? :eek: lucky you ;)

nakman
09-30-2009, 06:02 PM
Candy? you fell for candy? what's next, hey dad we're going out to a "movie."

:rolleyes:

RicardoJM
09-30-2009, 09:42 PM
Candy? you fell for candy? what's next, hey dad we're going out to a "movie." :rolleyes:

:lmao:

subzali
10-01-2009, 08:37 AM
Chinaman's Gulch?

Driving time facts are: Saturday I left the house at 7:00 for the 40's Only Run and didn't return until 8:30 that evening. TheBoomBoom took the 40 to Chinaman on Sunday, left the house at noon and was back by 8:00.

RicardoJM
10-01-2009, 08:46 AM
dang.. there is more than one? :eek: lucky you ;)

Yes, I am blessed.

Chinaman's Gulch?

My Oops, China Wall.

theboomboom
10-01-2009, 10:51 AM
Well the cooler weather was not kind again... the slave leaked like a silve when I tried driving to school this morning. Made it around the block before it was toast, and wasn't holding an ounce of fluid I tried to add, it all just leaked out. Stole to 40 from my brother so I could make it to school/work, but I know what I'm doin this weekend...

wesintl
10-03-2009, 12:07 AM
Hey Rick he's down to $2500 now.. http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/1399420889.html :D

This is a better buy... :thumb:

http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/1380946639.html

Uncle Ben
10-03-2009, 01:53 AM
This is a better buy... :thumb:

http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/1380946639.html

:hill: :bowdown::flamingo:

nakman
10-03-2009, 10:54 AM
Awesome! the General..