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thugmusk
10-13-2009, 08:06 AM
Hi all,

I'm failing emissions on a '87 60. First test (10/5) after purchase failed HC = 5.2 and CO = 144.

I asked Toyota here on Arappahoe to give it a once over while I'm at work, they said the High Altitude Compensation valve is plugged up but made some adjustments and I "should pass", if not, get the HAC valve from a junk yard as it is a discontinued part. Great.

So I immediately took it back to emissions (10/6) and passed HC = 3.3 but failed CO = 86. Went to junk yard, got HAC valve, replaced and tested again (10/8) failed both again with HC = 4.1 and CO = 88. Assumed junkyard HAC valve bad.

Last night I dug for and finally found my previous 60's emissions FSM, although listed for an '81, it seems applicable as everything appears to be identical. Disappointed in the fact that according the test procedure for the HAC valve, it tests fine, so now I lost a some confidence for that shop. In fact both valves test fine, the original and the one from the junk yard. Englewood is over 3000 ft in elevation so the valve should be operating in high altitude mode, which it is.

What I noticed during these three tests was the way these testers were going through the gears. I watched the monitor while keeping a peripheral eye on their shifting hand and my conclusion is they are not shifting at the Toyota recommended speeds. They were/are shifting at too high of RPMs.

Some questions are, can this method of testing/shifting be a factor in my failing? Should I ask them to follow the Toyota recommended speed for shifting? From what I have read here, these people seem un-approachable so I don't want to piss anyone off by suggesting they are testing inappropriately. Would asking for the duty manager upon arrival be over the top and put me on some blacklist?

Frustrated.

Rich Adams

MDH33
10-13-2009, 08:12 AM
Those numbers are pretty high. Have you gone through all of your vacuum emissions lines and made sure things are connected properly against the FSM?

PabloCruise
10-13-2009, 08:36 AM
Your emissions manual should have a trouble-shooting algorithm for causes of high CO and HC - have you followed those diagnostic processes?

thugmusk
10-13-2009, 08:43 AM
Have you gone through all of your vacuum emissions lines and made sure things are connected properly against the FSM?

I did a quick visual inspection against the FSM last night and yes it all appears to be in order. If no luck testing with a tank of e-gas I will roll up the sleeves and tear into it this weekend with the FSM nearby as I simply do not have time to start emissions testing on a work night. All the emissions components appear new/very clean with all new silicone vacuum lines. The Cruiser hailed from VA where I know they have emissions testing but spent the last few years in Conifer, without being tested for emissions.

Toyota never filled out the back of the test failure form where they should have marked what they checked as OK. I am having them to that now. Emissions should have never allowed me to re-test without this form being filled out (at least, thats what the form says). But they did, twice. So I'm starting to feel like a runaround is underway.

thugmusk
10-13-2009, 08:46 AM
Your emissions manual should have a trouble-shooting algorithm for causes of high CO and HC - have you followed those diagnostic processes?

I didn't, but Toyota did. In their words, "it's all running good and you should pass".

If no luck later at emissions today, I will tackle it myself.

wesintl
10-13-2009, 08:55 AM
I would bag the toyota dealer unless you want a long headache which you seem to be on your way to. You're probably better off with someone that knows carbs and emissions. If I had to take it to a dealer Burt or Boulder would be my choice.

Check out this thread. Try the place Ricardo recommends..


http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showthread.php?t=6555&highlight=emissions+shop

MDH33
10-13-2009, 08:58 AM
.... If no luck testing with a tank of e-gas...

I was able to get passing numbers with the engine hot and 1/4 tank of high octane. I've heard of people using a bottle of Heet with an almost empty tank as well.

thugmusk
10-13-2009, 09:15 AM
I would bag the toyota dealer unless you want a long headache which you seem to be on your way to. You're probably better off with someone that knows carbs and emissions. If I had to take it to a dealer Burt or Boulder would be my choice.

Check out this thread. Try the place Ricardo recommends..


http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showthread.php?t=6555&highlight=emissions+shop


Thank you for that advice.

Rich

wesintl
10-13-2009, 09:21 AM
can you post your full results from the last test?

High nox and co could mean you need a new cat.

thugmusk
10-13-2009, 09:25 AM
can you post your full results from the last test?

High nox and co could mean you need a new cat.

The failed test report is with Toyota right now so I dont have all the numbers but I remember I am only failing the HC and CO tests, the others pass.

60wag
10-13-2009, 09:46 AM
My experience with 60s and emissions testing usually led to a weak or malfucntioning air injection system. This includes the smog pump, air control valves and the cat. Inspecting the complete injection system per the '81 emissions manual will most like turn up several things that are wrong. There are two check valves in the system that tend to fail after 15 years and allow hot exhaust gas to cook the diaphrams in the air control valve. You don't want to know what a new air control valve costs.

To get the CO down, it is imperative that there is adequate air being pumped into a functional cat. Try to confirm that your air pump is putting out something. It will almost certatinly be less than the lower limit called out in the book. It might be worth disassembling the pump to see what is or isn't in it. I've gotten rebuilt pumps that only had 2 of the 3 vanes installed in them. If the pump if moving some air, test the air control valve to see if it is directing flow to the the cat or at least the air rail. Its possible that it is stuck in bypass mode and just pumping back into the air cleaner.

Since the pump ouput is likely weak, increasing the idle speed to the max allowed by the test will up the amount of air pumped into the exhaust. Before going to the test center, drive for a solid 10 minutes on the highway to get the cat as hot as possible. Good luck.

Bruce

PabloCruise
10-13-2009, 11:10 AM
The cat could be weak.

I believe you can get the air pump to put out all the time which I do not believe can hurt your results (someone jump in if I am providing poor advice).

Up the idle to the limit set by testing standards can't hurt, nor can fesh plugs and oil.

Your emissions FSM is going to list timing under causes of either CO or HC - how is your timing currently set?

IMHO, the only way to ensure you are set right is to set it yourself...

Good luck!

thugmusk
10-13-2009, 06:40 PM
can you post your full results from the last test?

Results from Thur, last test:
HC = 4.1199 limit=3.5000 FAIL
CO = 88.4339 limit=30.0000 FAIL
NOx = 2.2065 limit=5.5000 PASS

Toyota filled out the back of the Inspection Report and, in writing, recommended a carb rebuild @ $400 plus $100 in parts.

Score at the yard today. I was also able to meet Randy and Ricardo. Snatched the carb, air pump, air rail, air contol valve and all associated emissions doo dads. The injector rail looks in fine shape. The air pump spins and the ACV didn't really smell burnt out but who knows. This 60 was just on the road this past Aug so I'm thinking these items are all good.

Rich

wesintl
10-13-2009, 06:59 PM
I can't remember the limit but you can get a waiver after spending so much

thugmusk
10-13-2009, 07:04 PM
I can't remember the limit but you can get a waiver after spending so much

'68 or newer $715.
'67 or earlier $75.

http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite/Revenue-MV/RMV/1213694692475

Air Randy
10-14-2009, 11:52 AM
'68 or newer $715.
'67 or earlier $75.

http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite/Revenue-MV/RMV/1213694692475

I'd be generating an invoice for all of those super expensive parts you just got at the yard showing their value with labor installed is about $820 :D

Rzeppa
10-15-2009, 04:44 PM
Hi Rich, welcome to Colorado and the RS board! Heard any good Hot Tuna lately? ;)

AFAIK, the cat doesn't do much of anything for CO. The AI system is key, as has been alluded to in previous replies in this post. My daughter's '84 '60 was slightly over her first try, I had her run the fuel tank down to only a couple gallons of gas and then we added a couple bottles of Heet (methanol). The other thing we did was change the oil. Simple, but the methanol helps oxygenate the mixture, and fresh oil can adsorb some of the gasses better than old oil. Bumping the idle up can also help; we didn't need to do it on her 60 but it has helped me on several occasions for CO. High CO is partially caused by incomplete combustion, and higher RPM can help with that.

A counter-intuitive observation I have made in various smog issues I've had in past years is that backing off on static distributor advance to stock 7 BTDC actually reduces CO, even though it hurts power and fuel economy at our elevation. Once you've passed the test, advance it back to where it runs better.

Good luck and happy cruisin'!

thugmusk
10-16-2009, 07:11 AM
Hi Rich, welcome to Colorado and the RS board! Heard any good Hot Tuna lately? ;)

This just in:

Hot Tuna
Rhythm & Roots Festival
Ninigret Park
Charlestown, R.I.
September 5, 2009


AFAIK, the cat doesn't do much of anything for CO. The AI system is key, as has been alluded to in previous replies in this post. My daughter's '84 '60 was slightly over her first try, I had her run the fuel tank down to only a couple gallons of gas and then we added a couple bottles of Heet (methanol). The other thing we did was change the oil. Simple, but the methanol helps oxygenate the mixture, and fresh oil can adsorb some of the gasses better than old oil. Bumping the idle up can also help; we didn't need to do it on her 60 but it has helped me on several occasions for CO. High CO is partially caused by incomplete combustion, and higher RPM can help with that.

A counter-intuitive observation I have made in various smog issues I've had in past years is that backing off on static distributor advance to stock 7 BTDC actually reduces CO, even though it hurts power and fuel economy at our elevation. Once you've passed the test, advance it back to where it runs better.

Good luck and happy cruisin'!

Cat seems fine according to the FSM. All the plastic emissions components look new. No idea on air pump output.
All fluids have been changed but not prior to me failing emissions.
The idle is too high as is, about 1100.


I have desmogged 3 cruisers (never smogged one) and made the JimC approved emissions de-smog schematic that has been floating around the web for some time now. Although I haven't messed with emissions since my last 60's desmog, I feel confident in knowing my way around it. That said....all that was when I had time. Time Warner Cable relocated my entire group of 12 from Kansas City to our new former Adelphia facility down here in Centennial. Very demanding times as we support high speed data and digital phone services to serveral major cities and all services have to be cutover to our new facility. I was going into arrears with time on these 3 junkyard visits alone. Now my weekend has been taken from me and I won't be able to roll up the sleeves and dive in.

So, I will pay Colorado Car Clinic to straighten it out for me. Ricardo has had luck with them. They are also listed on the emssions report as a repair facility. They are right down the street from me and when I spoke to Dave there he instilled every bit of confidence in me that he will be able to fix it to pass emissions. Stated he didn't even need the emissions FSM as he has everything he needs already at his shop. I now have two spare sets of all emsissions doo dads including air pumps, ACVs, ABVs, injector rails etc.

As a side note. I feel if Toyota no longer makes an emissions part, that alone should qualify you for a waivor. It might, I didn't investigate it.

Thank you everyone for your insights.

Rich Adams

thugmusk
10-16-2009, 01:19 PM
Co-worker humor. There's 3 bucks in change in it.


http://home.roadrunner.com/~richadams/fund.jpg

RicardoJM
10-16-2009, 01:39 PM
I've got a couple of carb bolts to toss in the can:D.

ElliottB
10-16-2009, 03:20 PM
This is somewhat unrelated to the OP's issue, but....

Is there anyway to get a desmogged rig to pass emissions? I don't need to, just curious if there is a way to lean the carb out to pass.

jacdaw
10-16-2009, 04:42 PM
This is somewhat unrelated to the OP's issue, but....

Is there anyway to get a desmogged rig to pass emissions? I don't need to, just curious if there is a way to lean the carb out to pass.I think you'd have to get an ignorant technician who would not notice the visual failure. If they are following a check list of smog components for your year, you'd fail with a de-smog vehicle.

My truck has a decal under the hood that reads: no catalyst. I had to point it out to the technician last year when he tried to fail me on the visual.

Rzeppa
10-16-2009, 05:21 PM
This just in:

Hot Tuna
Rhythm & Roots Festival
Ninigret Park
Charlestown, R.I.
September 5, 2009

:thumb:

No idea on air pump output.

Take the hose off the front of the intake of the ABV and see if anything's coming out while the engine is running.

I have desmogged 3 cruisers (never smogged one) and made the JimC approved emissions de-smog schematic that has been floating around the web for some time now.

I thought that was you. URL?

Don't forget to notify TLCA of your change of address so you keep getting your Toyota Trails. And, you might try asking our own Robbie Antonsen at techeditor@tlca.org - he will give you a quick reply via email so you don't have to wait to see the answer in Toyota Trails. Once again, welcome to Colorado and Rising Sun!

ElliottB
10-16-2009, 05:21 PM
My smog pump is still there but it's gutted. Acting basically as a pulley. I think it would pass visual inspection.

rover67
10-16-2009, 07:16 PM
Hey Rich... Do you have and VSV's Lying around? I need one :)

if not did that 60 at the yard have the vacuum stuff (switches, contril valves, ect.) still attached?

Just figured I'd ask!

PabloCruise
10-18-2009, 05:05 PM
Here are the details from my '78 Toyota Emissions Manual:

They go for timing first, then vacuum, then mix, then things like air filter and PCV...

thugmusk
10-19-2009, 01:47 PM
Initial diagnosis. The Cat is toast and the carb is "not metered correctly for this altitude and that engine". I was told it is very possible this carb cooked the cat by it dumping so rich of mixture.

Air injection system fine as is all the emissions doo dads. I'm told.

wesintl
10-19-2009, 02:28 PM
scott at AA performance muffler and brake can hook you up on getting a new cat in.

Good luck

60wag
10-19-2009, 04:06 PM
If the carb has stock jets, a functional high altitude compensator, and came on an FJ60, then it it is properly "metered" for the altitude. Maybe a carb rebuild and a new cat will get you fixed up. After a "Jim C" carb rebuild and the Manafre replacement cat, I was able to get my CO down to 22 gpm.

thugmusk
10-20-2009, 06:43 PM
If the carb has stock jets, a functional high altitude compensator, and came on an FJ60, then it it is properly "metered" for the altitude.


I had thought that as well.

This Cruiser came from an emission testing free area of CO and I believe was previously de-smogged (by close examination of all emissions components/pump/rail etc). When the PO got another, nicer 60, I'm thinking it too was de-smogged and all it's emissions stuff, including the carb (that much I was told) ended up on my cruiser. You would think it all should work just fine but apparently that wasn't the case or something was overlooked in the swap. The cat was totally shot and the shops assumption is the raw fuel did it. After their carb adjustments and then a new cat, my numbers for HC went from 4.11 to .78 GPM, and to 12.3 from 88.4 GPM for CO. Those seem low numbers for just a cat replacement so I'm thinking something was not right with the carbs prior set points.

So, no "gross polluter tags" for me, although tallied up, I now qualify for a waivor.

60wag
10-20-2009, 08:06 PM
I'm glad you got it straightened out. Getting the CO down to 12 is impressive.

thugmusk
10-20-2009, 08:16 PM
Hey Rich... Do you have and VSV's Lying around? I need one :)

if not did that 60 at the yard have the vacuum stuff (switches, contril valves, ect.) still attached?

Just figured I'd ask!

I got two sets of emissions stuff but only one of those metal control valve sets. Feel free to ping me.

RicardoJM
10-20-2009, 09:07 PM
Rich, glad to hear you've got it all fixed and ready to pass emissions.

thugmusk
10-21-2009, 05:27 AM
Rich, glad to hear you've got it all fixed and ready to pass emissions.

It already passed, part of their service was to take it to emissions for me. Those numbers I reported are directly off the test form.

RicardoJM
10-21-2009, 06:49 AM
It already passed

Even better:D.

jacdaw
11-13-2009, 12:32 PM
Okay now it's my turn to struggle with high CO% again. At least the standard is the same this year as last year for my truck: 1.5% at idle.

Last year the first result was 4.8% (the p.o. lived in the mountains and refused to pay to fix it). I discovered a torn diaphragm that was spilling raw gasoline into the vacuum lines. Not sure how that gets into the exhaust, but the test results do not lie. $25 part at the dealer and 2 minutes to r&r and the next test was .14%

Nothing has changed since then except new air filter and cleaned plugs (new last year) and a mere 4k miles on the clock. Today's result was 2.68%. I pulled the vacuum hose off the diaphragm and it is not wet with gas, but I ordered another one today just in case. Should be here Monday. I'm afraid pulling the little housing will tear the diaphragm if it's not already compromised.

Looking in my Haynes, the only fuel/air mix adjustment I can find is for the idle circuit. I think they disregard the 2500rpm result, so I'm gonna adjust that too. I just don't understand how/why it could be running rich. Would certainly explain why I'm only getting 11MPG at the moment tho.
:(

Left a VM for Robbie in case he's got a FSM that describes carb adjustments better than what I have. Does anyone recall how many days I have to get it back to ACC for the free retest?

Uncle Ben
11-13-2009, 12:44 PM
okay Now It's My Turn To Struggle With High Co% Again. At Least The Standard Is The Same This Year As Last Year For My Truck: 1.5% At Idle.

Last Year The First Result Was 4.8% (the P.o. Lived In The Mountains And Refused To Pay To Fix It). I Discovered A Torn Diaphragm That Was Spilling Raw Gasoline Into The Vacuum Lines. Not Sure How That Gets Into The Exhaust, But The Test Results Do Not Lie. $25 Part At The Dealer And 2 Minutes To R&r And The Next Test Was .14%

Nothing Has Changed Since Then Except New Air Filter And Cleaned Plugs (new Last Year) And A Mere 4k Miles On The Clock. Today's Result Was 2.68%. I Pulled The Vacuum Hose Off The Diaphragm And It Is Not Wet With Gas, But I Ordered Another One Today Just In Case. Should Be Here Monday. I'm Afraid Pulling The Little Housing Will Tear The Diaphragm If It's Not Already Compromised.

Looking In My Haynes, The Only Fuel/air Mix Adjustment I Can Find Is For The Idle Circuit. I Think They Disregard The 2500rpm Result, So I'm Gonna Adjust That Too. I Just Don't Understand How/why It Could Be Running Rich. Would Certainly Explain Why I'm Only Getting 11mpg At The Moment Tho.
:(

Left A Vm For Robbie In Case He's Got A Fsm That Describes Carb Adjustments Better Than What I Have. Does Anyone Recall How Many Days I Have To Get It Back To Acc For The Free Retest?

10

jacdaw
11-13-2009, 01:28 PM
10thanks

jacdaw
11-20-2009, 05:17 PM
Today after breakfast I went back to ACC in Broomfield after cranking down the fuel/air mix screw and changing out that pesky, leaky diaphragm (last year $25 full price, this year $28 with RS discount :(). But good news is it passed. Truck ran like crap driving to the test, but idled well enough once in line. No comment on how it runs now, Mr. Senator, Sir...:rolleyes:

Odd thing, ACC said this test is good for two years, and yet last year's test was only good for one. Forgot to ask the County Clerk about that. I wish I had gotten the 5 year plate last year.:(