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MDH33
11-04-2009, 10:17 AM
I just got this from Brant:

November 19th 4:00 to 7 p.m

Idaho Springs, Colo. The Clear Creek Ranger District of the Arapaho and Roosevelt National Forests invites the public to an open house presenting the districtís Motor Vehicle Use Map (MVUM) on November 19 from 4:00 to 7 p.m. The open house will be held at the district office located at 101 Highway 103, Idaho Springs, CO.

The public is invited to share concerns and identify any inaccuracies on this map. The map identifies all routes open to motorized travel on the Clear Creek Ranger District, but does not make any new decisions regarding travel management.

The draft map was created using data and field information from the U.S. Forest Service and the 1997 Forest Plan Revision. Public input, along with input from Clear Creek, Gilpin and Jefferson Counties, will be the last step before the map is finalized.

Map updates are required annually and available to the public free from U.S. Forest Service offices. Maps will also be available online at HYPERLINK "http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/arnf/recreation/travel_mgmt/mvum/index.shtml" www.fs.fed.us/r2/arnf/recreation/travel_mgmt/mvum/index.shtml when finalized. The MVUM is part of a national effort, the 2005 Travel Management Rule, to address conflicts and confusion with motorized travel on forests and grasslands.

###

Editorís Please Note: Additional information about Motor Vehicle Use maps, including Q&As, is available online at HYPERLINK "http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/arnf/recreation/travel_mgmt/mvum/index.shtml" www.fs.fed.us/r2/arnf/recreation/travel_mgmt/mvum/index.shtml. National travel management information, including the Travel Management Rule, is also available at HYPERLINK "http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/programs/ohv/index.shtml" www.fs.fed.us/recreation/programs/ohv/index.shtml.

MDH33
11-04-2009, 11:25 AM
I'll be road tripping through Arizona and Utah that week, but I hope some Rising Sun members can make this meeting.

:thumb:

subzali
11-04-2009, 12:53 PM
I'll put it on my calendar and hope to make it. Thanks for posting up Martin!

subzali
11-18-2009, 12:28 PM
Anybody else planning on going up this Thursday that wants to carpool? I should be back from CO Springs early enough...

SRT08BUS
11-19-2009, 09:35 AM
I'll be up for going since the trails affected are in my neck of the woods, just not sure how much help I'd be.

subzali
11-20-2009, 08:40 AM
Okay, update from last night:

-I got up there about 6:30 and Brant was there, so we got to talking/chatting and he walked me through the map they had, helping me with some of the trails I didn't know. There were a bunch of other rangers there, and I kinda chatted it up with them for a bit.

Everything on the map looked pretty good to me, all the trails/loops that I knew of/could think of seemed to be there and shown correctly. Brant said he was really glad I showed up, because besides me and the president of Mile High Jeep club there wasn't much of a 4x4 showing that he could tell the whole afternoon.

I did find one issue though: On the Argentine Trail there are two places where the "high" road and the "low" road are connected together (248.1 and 248.1B). These were not shown, so I filled out one of their comment sheets and described that. THIS IS WHERE ALL THE WORK WE HAVE DONE HITHERTO IS STARTING TO SHOW SOME FRUITION - Brant was immediately agreeing with me that it had been missed, that he knows it's a road and a legal route and he will work to get the map corrected. A little bit of relationship development can go a LONG way in circumstances like these; if those connections are not on the map then the USFS is technically required by law to write tickets to those who are found on those routes.

A second issue is regarding route 248.1D (long spur on right hand side of map):
http://risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/attachment.php?attachmentid=14434&stc=1&d=1251654798

It appears that most, almost all, of 248.1D falls on Clear Creek County Open Space property. There is an ATV track that goes straight up onto the ridge where the road breaks through the trees onto some tundra (see where I labeled ATV tracks on map): there is nothing the USFS can do about it because it's not on their land. We had been trying to come up with a solution to close the ATV tracks; now it's illegal (because it's private property) to even drive on most of that spur. Which may be fine, except that it's doubtful that Clear Creek County will enforce any violations. It's possible they may erect a gate and close off the whole spur; which will solve the ATV problem but also keep people from going back there period. In this case I'm not too upset, because that spur doesn't go anywhere interesting and where the gate would probably be located (somewhere in the dense trees best we can tell) it will keep people from getting up on the tundra and making a mess. I'm planning on calling the CCC Open Space to introduce ourselves to them and let them know of our interest in the area and offer up any assistance if they would like.

Finally, I need someone more familiar than me with Kingston Peak, Jones Pass, Yankee Hill, Bill Moore Lake/Red Elephant Hill, Saxon Mtn./Lamartine etc. to review the MVUM and make sure all known legal routes are shown! I tried off of memory the best I could, but the more eyes on it the better. We have until November 30 to make any additional comments. Go here to view the map:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/arnf/recreation/travel_mgmt/mvum/ccrd_DRAFT_111909.pdf

Index is here:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/arnf/recreation/travel_mgmt/mvum/index.shtml
Read the Fact Sheet and also fill in the Public Review form (in the link) if you have any comments. You can also contact Brant by email at bdwobig@fs.fed.us if you want to get in touch with him directly.

Thanks! :cheers:

MDH33
11-20-2009, 09:27 PM
Awesome you could make it to the open house, Matt! bummed I couldn't make it, but Kim and I were on our three year anniversary road trip. ;)

madbare
11-20-2009, 11:33 PM
Hi Matt,

I am new to this board, but I do see some omissions on both the Boulder and Clear Creek maps. I live in Gilpin County and ride a lot of these trails up here and are very familiar with them. There is a loop route off of Rollins Pass that is not on here. I actually rode that for the first time this year. There are a few different trails around the Apex area and Lump Gulch area that are not on there as well. The problem is I don't know of any road markers to say what they really are, but appear to be legal routes as far as I know. I might be able to print out part of the map and mark it up. Let me see what I can do.

Regards,
Steve

subzali
11-22-2009, 07:49 AM
Thanks Steve! Hopefully the "loop" off Rollins Pass isn't Jenny Creek - I can't imagine it is, but I haven't looked at that map myself. Thank you for taking an interest in those areas, and yes please mark up a map if you can. And try to get in touch with Brant or someone at the Forest Service, mention Rising Sun and hopefully they will be able to help you. Brant, and it seems the rest of them, are very very familiar with all of these areas and usually can tell you off the top of their head if something is legal or not. Let us know how it goes, we only have another week!

madbare
11-22-2009, 06:03 PM
Matt,

Here is a marked up portion of that map. It looks like this is all in Boulder Ranger District, not Clear Creek, except for maybe a tiny piece that is coming off if Gilpin Road aka RD 13. The map from Clear Creek does not cover that portion either, so I am not totally sure. The loop off of Rollins is shown and it is not Jenny Creek. We did some Fire Dept training up there this year and found this trail. It goes up to some old mining area and old logged off areas. Makes a nice loop and looks like it is used a fair amount. Take a look and let me know what you think. Also, these are just estimates of where the trails are, but anyone that knows this area should know what I am talking about.

Steve

nakman
11-22-2009, 09:00 PM
Jones Pass is just the pass road now. I take it the parking areas (SNR cookout 2006) are implied to remain open. The spur that we did the cookout on in 2005 was already closed, so it remains closed on this map, as is "Cardinal's Loop" :D Butler Gulch is and remains closed to vehicles.

And I'm guessing the road doesn't end at the top, but they just omitted it because it crosses into another district? There's some stuff on the other side too, including a couple really awesome camp sites.

subzali
11-23-2009, 09:40 AM
madbare, thanks for the work and posting up the map! I'll make sure Brant sees it if you haven't already gotten in touch with him.

Tim, yes Jones Pass crosses over into another district and that is why it's not shown in bold on their map. That section remains open.

MDH33
11-23-2009, 03:37 PM
I need someone more familiar than me with Kingston Peak, Jones Pass, Yankee Hill, Bill Moore Lake/Red Elephant Hill, Saxon Mtn./Lamartine etc. to review the MVUM and make sure all known legal routes are shown! I tried off of memory the best I could, but the more eyes on it the better. We have until November 30 to make any additional comments. Go here to view the map:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/arnf/recreation/travel_mgmt/mvum/ccrd_DRAFT_111909.pdf




Just quickly looking at the map, I think there are spurs off of Red Elephant Hill and Kingston Peak that are missing. Might be over private land, but I'll look at my Topo software and see if I can mark them.

madbare
11-23-2009, 10:18 PM
Matt, I was looking at our maps at the fire station and it does not show that loop up on Rollins Pass either, so it is possible it is an illegal route. What is interesting is it is a nice drivable loop and is fairly well used. We were exploring about everything we could find as we respond to a lot of smoke sightings up in that area. I did not get a chance to call Brant yet. It is a busy short week for me at work. For the most part it looks like they did a pretty good job for this area. The stuff off the end of Lump Gulch and the road coming from 13 are really the only major things I see. There is still an old steam shovel down in the creek off the one coming off of rd 13! I would hate to loose access to that. I am not as familiar with the south end trails by Yankee hill and Central City. Hopefully someone can chime in there.

Steve :thumb:

MDH33
11-30-2009, 09:48 AM
Comments are due today. Anything else we want to notify the FS about?

MDH33
01-07-2010, 10:27 AM
Just wanted to expand on what was mentioned at the meeting last night regarding the small section of trail along the Argentine pass trail that won't be included on the MVUM. It's pretty minor.

This is what Matt reported at the MVUM open house:



I did find one issue though: On the Argentine Trail there are two places where the "high" road and the "low" road are connected together (248.1 and 248.1B). These were not shown, so I filled out one of their comment sheets and described that. ...

if those connections are not on the map then the USFS is technically required by law to write tickets to those who are found on those routes.



As I mentioned in the meeting last night, Brant emailed Matt and I and explained that one of the two roads Matt mentioned above will not be included on the map because it did not appear on their road inventory. Likely it was missed when the route was GPS'd.

(Matt, correct me if I'm wrong) but it's the first short connector between the high and low roads that parallel Leavenworth creek (the two trails highlighted in red on the map below.) It's fairly minor since it's only a couple of hundred yards long and somewhat of an inconvenience becasue it was an easy way to jump between the two trails. There is still a second connector slightly further down the trail. Brant also mentioned that we might be able to get it back on the map when they review in the future.

Not as bad as it sounds. So, I apologize my poor explaination at the meeting made it sound worse than it is. :)

Here's the map. The two red lines are the high and low road. The connectors are not shown.

Red_Chili
01-07-2010, 11:02 AM
Thanks, Martin, that is easier to swallow. We certainly don't need a proliferation of connectors. Unless they allow circumnavigation of snow drifts!

(always wanted to use that word... <snort>)

subzali
01-07-2010, 11:04 AM
You're correct Martin, it's the first of the two connecting roads. It's short, but significant in the fact that it lets us jump from the upper road to the lower road when we do our trail cleanups (at least it gives us the option to). I wouldn't call it a "proliferation" of connectors. It's useful, well-established, and well-used. Brant would like to help us find a legal way to keep it open (at least from his emails). And yes, I'm guessing it was missed during the GPS process.

Red_Chili
01-07-2010, 11:19 AM
Kinda crazy that a well established route suddenly doesn't exist. Not even ever numbered? Does it or has it existed SOMEwhere on a USFS map? That should help.

When we were first introduced to the OHV rule, there was supposed to be a process whereby these sorts of omissions could be addressed prior to the finalization of the MVUM. But then... bureaucracy hit. What about Travel Management plans that don't show it? What about this? What about that? All the ultragreen lawyers and their lawsuits have the USFS jumpier than a cricket in a reptile den.

I decided on a Jenny Creek workday that I would henceforth NOT participate in the closure of any route that was at one time, or should be, legitimate (Boulder Wagon Road being an example), regardless of what the USFS/BLM said it was. User-created cutoffs or braiding is one thing - no problem there. This would be quite another. I would just stand there, placing no carsonite. 'Tain't right.

subzali
01-07-2010, 11:44 AM
We'll have to check into some older maps, I don't recall any numbering but if anybody has some older maps of the area they can check and see. I know it's on my National Geographic/USGS maps.