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subzali
04-16-2006, 07:31 PM
depending on how you look at it. Didn't go climbing, didn't really get to hang out with my sister or one of my other friends, but I succeeded in procrastinating my homework! :o :D Started out near Castle Rock, swung by Hatfield's place (thanks again Chris!) to pick up a relay that I was going to use to troubleshoot. Then I got wind of Mike's project today so swung by his place to give him a hand/pick his brains. After helping him remove his windshield frame (I hope the disassembly stopped soon after that :eek: ) and looking at a couple LVs and stealing another relay, I was off. Now here's where it got fun. I hate wiring, but I guess I'm forcing myself to like it since it can do cool stuff, and somehow when it all works then it makes sense... :blah:

...But I didn't get my turn signals fixed :( . The colors in the manual weren't matching up with what I had :rant: (and I think this stuff is all original...it doesn't look like it's been messed with much, a couple were just spliced at some point), so I chased wires around trying to find continuity and voltages all day. I don't think there is anything wrong with my turn signal switch (even though I don't get how it works...more later) or my hazard switch (three of nine wires get 12V with or without the brakes applied, not sure if this is right or not). But when I flip the turn signal switch nothing happens. No noise, no lights, nothing. I have a bunch of drawings/pics that I'll load and refer to (out of space on mud :eek: ), but I think it may have to do with this first one: This wire *I think* was hooked up to the aftermarket relay that the pos had, but I don't where it is supposed to go. It originates in the turn signal switch, and it appears to me like it's the missing link between 12V and ground through the lights...opinions?

Romer
04-16-2006, 07:35 PM
When you hook up the wiring to the lights, the ground is key. Improper ground at either end will cause your lights not to work.

For example, if you have the OEM rear lights properly wired, put not installed it will not work because it relies on the metal to metal contact of the assembly installed to provide the ground.

subzali
04-16-2006, 07:52 PM
Now, I'm pretty sure all my ground are good and all my bulbs are good, but even if they weren't it sounds from what I've read that I'd have different symptoms anyway. So in trying to understand this system, let me start at the turn signal switch: For those of you who've been in here you know what this is depicting: the wires soldered to the wafer inside the switch. The three sliders each connect between two of the points, and I showed how they are positioned at each position of the turn signal switch. Can anybody confirm this as well as the colors? Now what I don't understand is how this accomplishes anything, because the dots that aren't labelled are that way because they aren't connected to anything: it would seem to me as if there is an open circuit. But if this is way they're supposed to be then so be it; I don't think and I hope that I'm not missing any small pieces to this system. There is also no common power supply that the switch would redirect; The left position is connected to completey different wires than the right position.

subzali
04-16-2006, 07:58 PM
10-4 Ken, that was definitely the first thing I thought of. But they were all working last summer just fine, and I didn't change anything with the wiring at the lights...there was just some stuff inside the cab/under the dash that wasn't right (and still isn't). There was an aftermarket relay hooked up that was bypassing/connecting a couple wires...I *think* it was connecting the green/white wire above and the green/blue wire shown in a picture below. But now I get nothing.

subzali
04-16-2006, 08:42 PM
Okay, now here's the connectors down below the column. The first one has six wires coming in, but two don't pass through the connector, so the other connector has four wires coming out. As you can see, the solid green and green/orange wires both stop at the connectors. GBlack goes to GP (green/purple) or stays GBlack, not quite sure. GB is GBlue, I found that GR turns to GY and carries 12V. Now it just came to me that I don't know where GR originates (I thought it came from the column but I can't confirm); I'll have to look at that tomorrow.

subzali
04-16-2006, 08:54 PM
The above drawing with the two prongs is the connector for the relay and shows the colors of wires going to it. I don't know where those two wires go, all I know is that they both carry a consistent 12V when the ignition is on. So I guess basically what I'm looking for here is anybody to confirm what I've found here, or maybe give insight as to where these wires go/what they do. So basically I'm trying to trace from the turn signal switch and find what link I'm missing from this sequence. Or any other ideas? I'm hoping that I went to all the extra trouble just for fun and it's just as simple as hooking up that green/white wire to the correct location. Or something.

Shark Bait
04-16-2006, 11:51 PM
Matt,

I've got a wiring harness from a '78 I'm not using if you want to try that. :D

subzali
04-17-2006, 07:13 AM
Hm...I may have to use that as another troubleshooting tool if I don't figure out what's going on. This week is going to suck for me, and I guess I don't really know when I'm going to have a chance to work on the Cruiser again. Man I hate school. If I get super desperate then I'll keep you in mind, thanks again Chris.

subzali
06-20-2006, 05:58 PM
GR above which turns into GY is for the horn; got that much figured out now after tearing into it. Oh yeah I'm resurrecting this thread; it's my best resource right now :D

subzali
06-20-2006, 10:35 PM
Hm....GY-GY is connected to GW on the turn signal relay; there's about 22 ohms between them. I was going to check the voltage on it but then got called to go climbing, it's going to have to wait :D

Rzeppa
06-21-2006, 04:43 PM
Hm....GY-GY is connected to GW on the turn signal relay; there's about 22 ohms between them.Were you able to investigate the location (and thus possibly the reason for) the change in stripe colors?

subzali
06-21-2006, 09:16 PM
No Jeff I didn't; the GW at the relay disappears into the wiring harness and through the firewall. Unfortunately Chris's wiring harness hasn't been much help either like I was hoping (but thanks again Chris anyway, I really owe you some :beer: for going to the extra trouble to get it to me), all the wire colors are different it seems, or else I have no clue what I'm looking at, which is completely possible :D. Anyway I still can't figure out why three of the seven wires that come down the steering column just die at the first connector; I can't find their matches anywhere under the dash.

The other thing I can't figure out is at the switch. Moving the switch up and down results in different wires having continuity, but it doesn't seem to me to be in a logical fashion. Nothing at the switch carries a voltage when the key is on, so I don't understand how that makes sense. My problem right now is that I don't know what data I need to collect or how to go about collecting it to find where my problem is; again I'm going to check on a ground problem, but before I can do that I need to make sure everything is hooked up right, which I'm positive it's not. I need to figure out the under-dash stuff before I address the ground problems. I don't know, speaking of that maybe the reason I don't have voltage at the switch is because one of the wires is shorted out somewhere in the harness; but that STILL doesn't explain the three disappearing wires.

subzali
06-29-2006, 07:11 PM
Okay, probably a stupid question: I switched the two wires that sit on the fender and turned the headlights on: instead of the side and top lights of the turn signals being on the turn signal light was on - does that mean my ground is good or does that not tell me anything? I'll post up some pics. Also it looks like the rear turn signals ground through the bulb/housing, as there's no return ground wire like on the fronts, is that correct?

Top: Correct lighting configuration
Middle: Wires that I switched
Bottom: Turn signal light on, means the bulb is good and the ground is good??

subzali
06-29-2006, 07:21 PM
BTW can anybody with a mid to late 70s FJ40 (or anybody with an FJ40) crawl under their dash and take out the connector with the six wires going into it that I posted on the first page and either take a picture of it or tell me what colors of wires are going in and out of it? Romer, Zepp, Farr, Treeroot? :D

This one here:

subzali
06-29-2006, 07:40 PM
It also looks like the Gblack and Gyellow that are on the wiring harness side of the big connector are always hot: I touch them to the wiring harness side of the horn and the horn goes off. Green-yellow appears to match up with the wiring diagram in the Haynes manual for the right turn lamp; green-black appears to match up with the Haynes manual for the left turn lamp. Does it make sense that the wiring harness sides of these two are always hot?

Rzeppa
06-30-2006, 10:15 AM
Okay, probably a stupid question: I switched the two wires that sit on the fender and turned the headlights on: instead of the side and top lights of the turn signals being on the turn signal light was on - does that mean my ground is good or does that not tell me anything? I'll post up some pics. Also it looks like the rear turn signals ground through the bulb/housing, as there's no return ground wire like on the fronts, is that correct?

Top: Correct lighting configuration
Middle: Wires that I switched
Bottom: Turn signal light on, means the bulb is good and the ground is good??Clearly the top photo is the correct wiring, and it appears that you have a good ground. You can always jumper direct from the threaded metal turn signal mount under the fender direct to battery negaive terminal and see if it makes any difference.

Rzeppa
06-30-2006, 10:20 AM
BTW can anybody with a mid to late 70s FJ40 (or anybody with an FJ40) crawl under their dash and take out the connector with the six wires going into it that I posted on the first page and either take a picture of it or tell me what colors of wires are going in and out of it? Romer, Zepp, Farr, Treeroot? :D

This one here:My 7604 harness is in a bag. I can pull it out, see if I can identify that connector and photograph it. When I removed it from the rig, I labeled every connector with what it was plugged in to. I also have a harness from a 1977, unknown month of manufacture. Mike and Ken's would be 78, Matt's would be 81. There are so many changes from year to year and even by production month, it would be hard to know whether the configuration and colors would be exactly the same as yours. What month production is yours? And do you know if it is CA spec or federal spec?

subzali
06-30-2006, 07:37 PM
Thanks Jeff, the reason I asked if anybody could take pictures is because the wiring is exactly the same at LEAST back to '75...but my Haynes doesn't have a wiring diagram for a '78. I got the '78 from Hatfield and it looks like it's different, but I was just hoping to confirm. I thought Ken's was a '77 too? Mine's a 10/76 ('77 model year) Federal spec. Thanks again all for the help! Now I just gotta get a M12 x 1.25 tap so I can install my long-needed and today-acquired seatbelts...of course the finest that Americans think M12 goes is 1.50...:mad: :rant:

bh4rnnr
06-30-2006, 09:53 PM
Thanks Jeff, the reason I asked if anybody could take pictures is because the wiring is exactly the same at LEAST back to '75...but my Haynes doesn't have a wiring diagram for a '78. I got the '78 from Hatfield and it looks like it's different, but I was just hoping to confirm. I thought Ken's was a '77 too? Mine's a 10/76 ('77 model year) Federal spec. Thanks again all for the help! Now I just gotta get a M12 x 1.25 tap so I can install my long-needed and today-acquired seatbelts...of course the finest that Americans think M12 goes is 1.50...:mad: :rant:

I might have that size tap... I'll check Monday:beer:

Rzeppa
07-01-2006, 10:57 AM
Thanks Jeff, the reason I asked if anybody could take pictures is because the wiring is exactly the same at LEAST back to '75...but my Haynes doesn't have a wiring diagram for a '78. I got the '78 from Hatfield and it looks like it's different, but I was just hoping to confirm. I thought Ken's was a '77 too? Mine's a 10/76 ('77 model year) Federal spec. Thanks again all for the help! Now I just gotta get a M12 x 1.25 tap so I can install my long-needed and today-acquired seatbelts...of course the finest that Americans think M12 goes is 1.50...:mad: :rant:YQW. Every year was a little different, and as I mentioned, they would sometimes change in mid-production year. And there are differences between federal and CA spec from about 74 or so through about 81 or 82. The main differences through the late 70s 40 harnesses are in emissions component connections, and it seems likely that the turn signal stuff might be pretty similar if not the same within only a few years or months difference. I'll go check mine later today and post back up, k?

Rzeppa
07-01-2006, 10:59 AM
Now I just gotta get a M12 x 1.25 tap so I can install my long-needed and today-acquired seatbelts...of course the finest that Americans think M12 goes is 1.50...:mad: :rant:I forgot to mention, I do have a 12x1.25 tap and and also a die that you're welcome to borrow. I was rooting around for a 1/8NPT to clean the threads out on that mystery oil port on that F I built when I came across them.

subzali
07-03-2006, 12:48 PM
Thanks again Jeff :thumb: Actually I found out today that it's actually a 7/16-20 bolt, which is closer to a M11 x 1.25. So it's all good, I was able to borrow my friend's dad's :hill: tap. Hopefully will have time to get around to the turn signals later today, I'm going to actually take a little closer look at the hazard switch. Oh and my speedometer stopped working after last week's escapades on the backside of the instrument cluster, so all the way to South Colony Lakes and back this weekend I had to guesstimate my speed :hill: I think we guesstimated a constant 70-75-80 all the way back on N. I-25 from the Springs.

Rzeppa
07-03-2006, 03:33 PM
Cool. On the speedo, I broke, replaced and broke again a couple speedo cables on my 71 before I discovered they were breaking because the brass bushings inside the speedo were binding. I took the mechanism apart very carefully, cleaned and lubed, reassembled and reinstalled and all's been well ever since.

If your issue is the same as mine, first check to see if the cable's broken or not. If it is, replace it. If it isn't check the little plastic gear between the t-case and e-brake. If the gear's broken, it can be replaced without pulling the t-case. If either are broken and then replaced, and the speedo starts to work again, watch the speedo needle. If it bounces around like crazy, that means the brass bushings inside are binding and you'll break another cable or gear.

subzali
10-05-2006, 09:04 AM
Just trying to bump this since I haven't had time to work on the truck in a while. As per Romer's hint I'm going to look closely at the rear lights and make sure all the grounds are good back there; the more I think about the more it seems like that's probably the problem. MARTIN helped me last night by plugging in the relays I have into his harness to check if they were working and they were, so at least that's ruled out. Since I still have no idea how this system works I can't just start from the upper side of the electron stream (don't really even know where that is?) and work down to the bulbs. But since both were working, then one quit, then the other got intermittant, then it too quit the more I think about it the more it sounds like a wire is grounding somewhere along the frame or the rear bulbs/housings are NOT grounding properly. Ruled out the fronts earlier, they work fine.

wesintl
10-05-2006, 09:47 AM
Have you unplugged the bullet connectors from the lights and tested just the wires?

subzali
10-05-2006, 12:16 PM
You talking at the rear of the truck? I need a little more elaboration on what you're thinking I might need to look for.

Rzeppa
10-05-2006, 12:27 PM
When either front or rear lights either aren't getting a decent ground, or have burned out bulb(s), normally the emergancy flashers will work, but not the turn signals. Also, in these instances, when the turn signal switch is actuated, you will hear one click and then nothing. At this point, normally you will see the turn signal indicator with steady illumination, and no illumination on any exterior lamp.

As for the source of the electrons, that will of course be the negative terminal of the battery, but you probably knew that. What you are likely trying to find is the sink for the electrons. For the flashers, that will of course be the positive terminal of the battery, then to the fuseblock. It is important to note that since the emergency flashers work without the key turned, their power is "unswitched", whilst the turn signal portion needs the key at least in the accessory on position, or engine on. HTH and happy cruisin'!

subzali
10-05-2006, 12:57 PM
Hm...I'll look into that, that's a good observation that I haven't yet thought about but I would do well to. My hazards have never worked, even when the turn signals did work, so that throws another angle into the equation. I'll trace wires and grounds and report back. Currently I don't even get a click from my turn signals, and no lights on the dash. I used to get a blinking light on the dash corresponding to the signals.

Rezarf
10-06-2006, 11:08 AM
Matt-

Wes, is talking about the two bullet connectors that run from inside your engine bay through the fenders and into the turn signals, you have a picture of them in an earlier post here. Put a muti meter in there and see if you are getting good power at both of those.

I would have to recommend the easiest stuff first. I would remove both lights and really work on the grounds up front (that was my issue). I would go as far as to "jump" the ground to the battery to make sure you have it covered. With all the dirt and grime our cruisers have seen in 30 years this is the most probable cause. Second, I would make sure each bulb is working and not burned out.

Then I would head to the rear of the vehicle and check the ground at the rear lights, clean it up and maybe go as far as "jumping" to a ground again. This has allowed my turn signals to work again as well.

I know my junk sounds way to basic, but I would recommend totally ruling out the simple things first. My grounds and wires for that matter, showed very real evidence of being exposed to the elements for 30 years.:eek:

Sorry man, electric stuff can really stink, you will get it man:thumb: . Plus, if you need any more pics, my cruiser is a Nov/75 build date. Let me know I will snap some shots.

Rezarf <><

Rezarf
10-06-2006, 11:09 AM
I think we guesstimated a constant 70-75-80 all the way back on N. I-25 from the Springs.

Just get a GPS and call it done! :hill:

Rezarf <><

subzali
10-11-2006, 02:30 PM
So checked out my rear lights today, and they work when I hardwire the battery to them, so that *should* mean the grounds are good in the rear right? Kinda scratching my head on what needs to be done next... None of the switch/under-dash wiring makes any sense to me, Rezarf's wiring is the same (3 wires just disappear) and my relay works on Martin's Cruiser, so those should be good. I already dismantled the switch, and I can't even understand how this thing is supposed to carry/transfer any current, it all looks like it dead-ends (but this is the way it is from the factory so it's gotta be right). So I'm left :confused:

subzali
10-11-2006, 03:02 PM
Okay, so check me on this: I took a small wire and connected one side to the positive terminal of the battery. I took the other side of the connector and plugged it into the plug from page 1. In one pin location one set of lights (front and rear) lit, and in another the other set (front and rear) lit. That should mean that the fault is upstream of that location right?

MDH33
10-11-2006, 03:40 PM
Do your running lights and brake lights all work? It does seem like the problem could be in the turn signal switch in the column if everything works except the signals.

subzali
10-11-2006, 03:42 PM
I looked at the switch in the column again: I am not getting any voltage in any position at any pin except for the horn. It would seem to me that depending on where the lever is positioned there would be voltages at some of the pins in the column. Now I keep tracing further upstream, but this is where I'm confused on where the current travels: I'm guessing that the turn signal/hazard flasher is upstream of the column switch, but is the hazard switch on the dash involved in this in any way shape or form? If it is then I have a sneaking suspicion that my problem may lie there as the hazards have never worked.

subzali
10-11-2006, 03:44 PM
All lights work except for turns/hazards. When this problem first started it was kinda dependent on the steering wheel (and hence switch - the rotating steering wheel will disengage the blinkers remember) position. Everything is clean and tight in there though, so I don't know where to really look.

MDH33
10-11-2006, 03:52 PM
I just looked at the wiring diagram I have and it looks like the flasher and turn signal switch are dependent on power through the hazard switch. I would look under the dash and check the connections on that hazard switch next. I can email a pdf if you need a wiring diagram.

subzali
10-11-2006, 03:58 PM
I've got the Haynes manual and it says that the Green/Light Blue wire is upstream of the turn switch, which means to me that's where the 12V is supposed to come from. So I connected the battery to that and tested the switch. On left the left side lights are on solid, on right the right side lights are on solid. I guess this is sort of a success in this project: I've narrowed down my options a lot today. It's not grounds, it's not wiring in between the switch and the lights, it's not bulbs, it's not the turn signal switch. Sorry for my train of thought thread, it's the way I roll :D. BTW is there a way to change the title? I'm thinking something more along the lines of Subzali's Turn Signal Problem, it's a little more descriptive :rolleyes:

MDH33
10-11-2006, 03:58 PM
PDF wiring diagram (http://www.yankeetoys.org/documents/wiring_diagram_78_fj40.pdf)

Hope this helps.

subzali
10-11-2006, 04:20 PM
Yeah that's the one I'm looking at. I can see how the hazard switch bypasses the turn signal switch. I'm guessing when you pull the knob all the "L" switches close, is that right? What does the "F" switch do, does it switch from the GR to the GW wire when you pull the knob? I'm going to try and hardwire the GW to the flasher and see if I can get blinking signals, if I do then I guess it means for sure the hazard switch is toast. And yes all the fuses are good :rolleyes: :D

Rzeppa
10-11-2006, 06:09 PM
Matt, that's the proper way to go about it, by the process of elimination. It seems probable at this point that either the hazard switch is faulty, or there is a faulty connection to it.

I hadn't reviewed the scematic until now. That's a nice, clear schematic, certainly easier to read than the fine print in either the FSM or Haynes. It would appear that the next step will be to verify power to the hazard flasher at the GR terminal of the connector. If it is present, then check whether there is continuity between the terminals of the switch between GR and F. It's not clear that the schematic is entierely correct however. On all 3 of my 40 series (71, 76 and 78) the hazard lights work regardless of the keyswitch position, yet the schematic is showing power coming through the switch in the ignition "on" position...I think...I'll have to double check that. The schematic is only showing unswitched power to the horn, lights, lighter, and starter motor.

subzali
10-11-2006, 08:23 PM
So the colors of my wires are different than in the manual, so I'm having to check them one by one. It seems to me that the GOrange wire coming into my hazard switch is the GR wire in the diagram that comes from the Turn fuse. I also have a GR wire that seems to be coming from the Stop fuse. I only have one GL wire coming from my hazard switch and the manual shows two; the one I have doesn't ever have voltage in it, and it is not connected to the GL coming from the relay. So it looks like I'm going to be doing some more poking around to see if any of the other colored wires are connected to the GL at the relay and go from there. And yes my GL goes to the relay before splitting off to the turn switch, that's something that's different in the diagram Martin posted up. The GL going to the turn switch does not get any voltage. So basically my guess is that the hazard switch is toast; I have a hard time believing that a wire inside the harness is completely broken/grounded. So does anybody have a spare hazard switch I could borrow for diagnostics? :D

Rezarf
10-11-2006, 08:52 PM
Matt-

Looks like you made some progress! :)

if you are up in boulder anytime soon, we can pull mine out and swap it into your rig...

I see them on ebay pretty often too.

Drew

subzali
10-12-2006, 09:39 AM
http://www.foxhome.com/castaway/about_film/images/about_left.jpg
So on a hunch I modified my wiring: I took the GL wire coming out of the relay (the one that in '77 goes back to the hazard switch but in '78 splits off) and split it off straight over to the GL wire that goes up the column. Here goes nothing: turn key on, right turn................................











blink. Got the dash indicator to go on, but my right bulb in the rear is burned out so it won't continue blinking. Okay so try left...............















blink......blink........blink.......blink :clap: :headbang: :perry::woot:

I am master of all that is mine:hill: So even though it's not technically wired correctly, and I still don't exactly know what the problem is (I'm still thinking the hazard switch) at least I won't have to use my arms to signal turns anymore.:cheers: Thanks for all the help and encouragement guys, and for putting up with my attitude when I was frustrated:rolleyes: Time to update my signature :D

MDH33
10-12-2006, 09:45 AM
Right on! Your perseverance paid off. :thumb:

subzali
10-12-2006, 09:53 AM
Oh yeah and thanks for the wiring diagram Martin, I probably wouldn't have thought to do that if I hadn't seen it on the one you posted up:cheers:

Rezarf
10-12-2006, 10:13 AM
Great job Matt!

:D :cheers: :thumb:

MDH33
10-12-2006, 12:22 PM
...Got the dash indicator to go on, but my right bulb in the rear is burned out so it won't continue blinking...


Matt, make sure you get OEM Toyota bulbs to replace these. I had problems in my FJ60 with the running lights because they were aftermarket. Using correct Toyota parts was the fix. You should contact CDan from MUD about the Hazard switch and any other bits you need. IH8MUD members get a discount and the shipping is super fast and free.

Rzeppa
10-12-2006, 07:13 PM
Righton! Great combination of perserverence and know-how! Way to go!

subzali
03-14-2011, 12:05 PM
Okay, so more drama from my turn signals. And I think it's time to fix it right this time. They worked fine from the summer of '09 until two weeks ago. Here's what's going on:

-In order for my turn signals to work at all, my hazard switch has to be pulled out. My hazard switch does not work in the way it's supposed to, i.e. it does not make all four exterior bulbs flash.
-Up until last week, both left and right turn signals worked fine. But suddenly my right turn signal stopped working, no click, nothing. My left turn signal still works fine.
-I applied power directly from the battery to the right front bulb, nice and bright (good grounds, I just fixed the grounds a couple weeks ago). I have not done so with the rear yet, but I'm confident that the rear ground is find as well, since the system was JUST working great.

I'm thinking of tearing into my hazard switch to see what's going on with the contacts inside, any other ideas?

corsair23
03-14-2011, 05:30 PM
I'm thinking of tearing into my hazard switch to see what's going on with the contacts inside, any other ideas?

No ideas but thanks for the reminder that mine still don't work right after all these years :rolleyes:

If you need to test some different hazard switches I think I ended up with 2 or 3 but I'm not sure if they are correct for the year...It looks like a total PITA to replace the switch so I keep putting it off...

subzali
03-14-2011, 08:20 PM
Oh goodie! Another thing we can fix while we work on your carb ;)

The only hard part about getting the hazard switch out is disconnecting the plug. Still haven't figured out exactly how to do that...off to read MUD to hopefully find some tips or tricks...

subzali
03-14-2011, 10:39 PM
Okay, found out some more information with a little diagnostics tonight. Tonight I focused in on the hazard switch. First I checked the voltages at the fuse block. I found that my "Stop" fuse, which is straight engine power, is 12V continuous. I found that all my switched power ("Engine," "Heater," "Turn") are 8.8V. My fuel cut solenoid only sees 8.6V and thus my voltage regulator only sees 8.6V on one side with alternator voltage on the other. That must be part of the reason why I'm having issues with my charging voltage. I guess my first priority should be to clean up my switched voltage and see why I'm having so much voltage drop in the system.

Next I checked the wires going into and out of my hazard switch at various switch positions. Here is what I found:
The image with two rows of five is the connector going into the hazard switch. Here is what they should be
GY=12V when hazard switch is "ON" - for right side flashers - hazard "OUT". The middle "GY" pin is melted to the connector.
GL=12V from flasher "L" terminal back to hazard switch "ON" or "OFF" - hazard "IN". Also goes to turn signal switch "B" terminal. This pin is melted to the connector.
GW=12V to flasher "B" terminal from hazard switch "ON" or "OFF" - hazard "OUT"
GR=12V when hazard switch is "ON" - power from 20A "STOP" fuse for 4-way
GB=12V when hazard switch is "ON" - for left side flashers - hazard "OUT"
G=to flasher "S" terminal
GO=(not in wiring diagram), from 15A "TURN" fuse, switched 12V when hazard switch is "OFF"

Below you'll see what I actually got. The last picture is the readings with the turn signal on; One "GL" wire should have voltage in either turn or hazard mode, the other "GL" should have voltage only when the turn signals are blinking and the "GY" and "GB" wires should only have voltage when the 4-way hazard is flashing. Instead, I get voltage in "GL," "GY," and "GB" with the left turn signal blinking. Since "GY" is for the right lamps, I would think that I would see the lamps blinking since they are seeing voltage, but they don't. Oh boy I have a bunch of problems. Other things that bother me: my '77 wiring diagram doesn't show a "GO" but I clearly have one that appears to be coming from my Turn fuse. Only '78 and newer have a "GO," but it is supposed to go from the hazard switch to the flasher. Also, I don't know why I have two "GY" and two "GB" and only one "GL" coming from my hazard switch. I should have two "GL" and one each of "GY" and "GB" according to the wiring diagram. Sigh.

Here's the summary:
GY=always 0V, should see intermittent 12V with hazard switch "ON" for right lamps. Right now, only sees voltage when turn signal is on (left or right, but right lamps don't flash when left turn is on). Again, the middle "GY" pin is melted to the connector.
GL=8.8V only with switched power, hazard off. Should see intermittent 12V with hazard switch "ON" or turn signals blinking. Sees voltage when turn signal is blinking. This pin is melted to the connector.
GW=10.2V with hazard "ON", which means "STOP" power is getting through the switch. Sees switched power and "hazard "ON"" power properly.
GR=Sees 10.2V when keyswitch is "OFF", 9.5V when keyswitch is "ON." Should be constant 12V.
GB=always 0V, should see intermittent 12V with hazard switch "ON" for left lamps. Right now, only sees voltage when turn signal is on.
G=?
GO=sees 8.8V that the "TURN" fuse sees. This should be 12V.

Interesting...more diagnostics to come. Seems like my two issues are low voltage at the switched power sources and problems within the hazard switch.

subzali
03-16-2011, 09:04 PM
Well after wrestling with my hazard switch to get it out, I took a look inside and realized that everything is fine. And after going through the above voltage readings I now see that the hazard switch is working as it should. So now I have to figure out:
1) Why am I only getting 8.8V with the key on?
2) Why do my turn signals not work if the hazard switch is not pulled on?
3) Why do my hazards (4-way) not flash automatically when my hazard switch is pulled out?

Guess I need to start at the battery and trace some wires to find out.

Jacket
03-17-2011, 09:10 AM
Are you fairly certain that no modifications have been done to the wiring for the turn signals? If not, then I think you are on the right track and your problem could be sourced with a short or bad wire somewhere. If it has been modified in some way, then I suspect the problem could be bigger or harder to troubleshoot.

subzali
03-17-2011, 09:20 AM
Well, most of the wiring is pretty much stock. There are a couple mods (which I'm going to return back to stock to be sure they aren't messing with anything), and I have some questions about some of the connectors on the first page of this thread, but now I'm armed with the FSM and can do continuity checks to make sure things are connected the way they're supposed to be. I started a thread on MUD and I've gotten some ideas from there that I'm going to try. But I really do think I need to revisit the area that I took pictures of and posted on the first page of this thread and I think I will get some answers there...

subzali
04-01-2011, 02:33 PM
Okay, making progress. After I cleaned up the hazard switch and turn signal switch, my turn signals now work perfectly without the hazard switch being pulled out. Yippee, making progress. Drove it to work the past couple of days and everything seems well and good. But I'm still missing some fundamental element of this wiring system that is evading me...more diagnostics to come.

MDH33
04-01-2011, 02:47 PM
Good to hear you're getting it working. :thumb:

Mine just started acting up on the way to the WBPP last weekend. The turn signals only work at idle or low rpms. If I'm driving and the rpms are up at all, I get the fast blink on the dash but nothing on the signal. Guess it's time to check connections again. :rolleyes:

subzali
04-23-2011, 08:44 AM
A few weeks ago I looked at kurtnkegger's '77 to compare some wiring connections. I found something interesting regarding the wire in THIS POST (http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showpost.php?p=9350&postcount=1):
-His is dangling in space just like mine is, but all his lights and stuff work. Hm.

I also found out something interesting about the connector mentioned in THIS POST (http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showpost.php?p=9358&postcount=5):
His colors match mine, and yeah there are 6 wires coming out of one side of the connector and 4 wires coming out of the other side, exactly like mine. But again, his lights and stuff work. Hm.

Yesterday evening I pulled my rear taillight lenses and housings out, pulled the bulbs out, cleaned up the sockets, bolts, and machine screws, and slathered some dielectric grease in the bulb sockets and slathered some anti-sieze on the bolts and machine screws and put it all back together. Everything worked when I took it apart, everything worked when I put it back together. Meaning there appeared to be no change in the brightness of the bulbs or their functionality. Hazards still no worky.

More to come.

kurtnkegger
04-23-2011, 11:21 PM
-His is dangling in space just like mine is, but all his stuff works. Hm.



:eek::lmao:

2nd Childhood
04-29-2011, 06:06 PM
Sometimes when I troubleshoot, I will take an in line 10 A fuse and back feed the the troubled area, IE a long jumper going from the battery to the source of the problem. Then I check voltage at the switching part of what I am trouble shooting.
With rigs dating back to 30 + years the voltage drop or resistance could be in the switch leg or switching device. Best of luck I do have very old manuals that I use as a reference on mine if that will help. They are Toyota, one is chassis and body with a 1982 reprint date. I could probably Fax or scan/email.

subzali
05-03-2011, 10:37 AM
Thanks 2nd Childhood, I am continuing on chasing down this problem. I got a Haynes that has wiring diagrams for a lot of different years and I have an FSM that has pretty pictures of the components and procedures for spot checking switches and stuff but unfortunately has the wrong year wiring diagram - I'm positive I told them to get me a manual for a '77 :rant:

Oh well, it runs and drives and everything works except the hazard circuit. I'll keep on cleaning and checking as I get free time here and there.

ttubb
05-05-2011, 05:52 PM
I suppose this has already been covered, but did you check all your ground connections, I mean all, including to frame? I have seen corrosion do some strange things to electrons....Terry

corsair23
05-05-2011, 09:24 PM
...I have an FSM that has pretty pictures of the components and procedures for spot checking switches and stuff but unfortunately has the wrong year wiring diagram - I'm positive I told them to get me a manual for a '77 :rant:

How close is the '77 wiring to '75/'76 wiring?

I have a couple of those laminated 11x17" ish sized wiring diagrams that used to be sold on fleebay (maybe still are). One is labeled '74 and the other is for '75/'76 model years...

subzali
05-06-2011, 08:27 AM
I suppose this has already been covered, but did you check all your ground connections, I mean all, including to frame? I have seen corrosion do some strange things to electrons....Terry

That was the first thing that was brought up in 2006 when I first started this thread. I had some wayward wiring and grounds that I addressed at that time and have been addressing since, and just recently got my turn signals to work reliably as they should, mainly by cleaning up the switch itself. Now I'm down to problems with my hazard circuit. I am in the process of going back through the grounds again, armed with more knowledge and more chemicals this time, but everything I've done so far has made no difference. My bulbs burn bright when my turn signals are on, but I get no response from my hazard switch, so I'm having a hard time believing it's the grounds, because both the turn signal and hazard circuits ground through the same points, and if one works (which it does) then well I think the problem lies elsewhere.

How close is the '77 wiring to '75/'76 wiring?

I have a couple of those laminated 11x17" ish sized wiring diagrams that used to be sold on fleebay (maybe still are). One is labeled '74 and the other is for '75/'76 model years...

The Haynes manual has diagrams for a lot of model years, including '77, and so far it's been pretty accurate. At least as accurate as the FSM. So I think I'm covered. There are some slight differences in this circuit (go figure, this circuit changed almost every year :rolleyes:) from '75-'76 and '77.

subzali
08-26-2011, 01:12 PM
Hm. Couple more data points as this saga continues.

Sometimes my turn signals will work with the hazard switch pushed in, sometimes they will only work with the hazard switch pulled out. The indicator light is noticeably brighter when they are working with the hazard switch pulled out. To me, this means there is something wrong with the turn signal circuit, too much voltage loss somewhere along the line, upstream of the bulbs.

Also, just this week my right turn indicator bulb just decided that sometimes it wants to work and sometimes it doesn't. A couple times I have tapped the instrument panel face, and it started working again. But not every time.

So more things that will hopefully be fixed whenever I do whatever I'm going to end up doing to get this working right.

subzali
04-21-2012, 07:56 AM
So I've figured out (I think) what the problem is with my hazard circuit. But I'm waiting on making a $100 order to SOR that will include the parts I need to fix it, and then I can do a writeup on it. Let's just say it's nowhere near as simple as we all thought.

But I've driven my 40 on a couple day trips and the turn signals have been working splendidly, without needing to have the hazard switch pulled out.

And then the other day AHorseThief was looking at Proffitts bargain basement and found a set of MAF taillight protectors for $40. They are normally $125, so I snagged them (he has the older style taillights). I've been waiting for these for a long time. They are burly. The stock rear crossmember is 3/16" thick, and these things has a 1/4" thick vertical portion and 3/8" bottom skid portion.

Of course all the aftermarket companies supply this hardware with SAE hardware :mad: One of my pet peeves is putting SAE hardware on my Land Cruiser that came with JIS hardware. So I bought some new hardware (but not everything I need, I'll just have to do that later).

A few years back Bruce Miller gave me some NIB foam wrapped taillight lenses. I was saving them for just this occasion.

So here they are, all boxed up with hardware, and my lenses wrapped up safely:

subzali
04-21-2012, 07:57 AM
You have to drill a couple holes in the rear crossmember to mount them, but it's pretty easy once it's bolted on.

Here's some pictures showing what I started with and what it looks like with one side done. Very happy with the product :thumb:

nattybumppo
04-21-2012, 02:55 PM
Nice Matt. I have the parts for that tailight project on the shelf myself...so keep the write-up coming!

Rzeppa
04-23-2012, 02:13 PM
Holy mackerel batman! Those tail light protectors look REALLY stout!

:eek:

subzali
04-23-2012, 06:23 PM
Well I got the other side on tonight. This side needed more smithing than the other side. The bottom of the c-channel of the rear crossmember had been bent up on this side :o

I think that happened on Rose Garden Hill :o

Anyway, with a little creativity with the BFH, brass drift, and 1/2" ratchet :hill: I was able to get it close enough I could pull it all together with the hardware that was provided.

Looks good!

And a shot of the side to show how much it sticks out. Not sure why they have it sticking out that far, that might need an "adjustment" later on ;)

The best part about this addition is it forced me to spend a lot of good time cleaning up the bulb housings, ground connections, and generally check everything in that area very closely. With all that done the bulbs flash brighter and stronger than they ever have, so things are looking good from a turn signal perspective.

SteveH
04-23-2012, 09:42 PM
I have never seen that style of taillight protector - very cool. Thanks for the photos.

bomber22
04-23-2012, 10:49 PM
they look great, nice score. but what i would really like to know is, who use's turn singles any more? lol..hope you figure it out.

where is the spell check, when i write a post?

subzali
04-24-2012, 08:22 AM
yeah, no kidding :rolleyes:

The turn signals are still working good, so let's keep hoping :thumb:

There is a spell check when you go to the advanced reply. It's up and to the right above the smilies.

Spike Strip
04-13-2014, 03:10 PM
Subzali,

In your 1st post, you ask what the dangling bullet connector with GW wire, out of the Turn Signal switch is for or goes to .... Ever find out ?

I've got the same issue.

:o

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/attachment.php?attachmentid=1241&stc=1&d=1145237468

subzali
04-13-2014, 07:17 PM
I've seen the same thing on several 77s so I think it's a relic from the 76 harness