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View Full Version : Fairlead for ARB to use synthetic winchline?


Snorkel 1
04-19-2006, 01:16 AM
Well I got my aluminum fairlead in the mail but it doesnt line up with the opening for the winch cable in my ARB bumper. It sits too low so the bumper covers part of the opening. Do I need to modify the bumper or find another fairlead? I could get the roller fairlead that is designed for synthetic line but I would rather go with the one piece aluminum. This is going on my 97 LC with a Warn M12.

Crash
04-19-2006, 07:56 AM
http://www.okoffroad.com/
Seth, check out the fairlead page on this site and see how your new fairlead compares. They offer an offset fairlead for ARB bumpers.

Snorkel 1
04-20-2006, 12:59 AM
http://www.okoffroad.com/
Seth, check out the fairlead page on this site and see how your new fairlead compares. They offer an offset fairlead for ARB bumpers.


Thanks. I just e-mailed them to make sure it will work for my application. It looks like a quality product. I also just listed the Poly Performance fairlead that didn't fit on ebay.

Seldom Seen
04-20-2006, 01:38 AM
Since you know that a roller fairlead fits here is another option:

http://www.winchline.com/delrin_rollers.jpg

Viking Replacement Delrin Fairlead Rollers

These new Viking rollers are designed to be used with synthetic winch lines, replacing the factory galvanized rollers. They are made from Delrin offering high strength, abrasion resistance, and heat resistance, and have a smooth surface to protect your synthetic winch line. these rollers replace the stock Warn fairlead rollers. The Viking rollers are 68% lighter than stock: .97 Kg (34.4 oz / 2.1 lb) vs. stock steel rollers at 2.4Kg (83.2 oz / 5.2 lb). Delrinis a material that somewhat similar to lightweight alloys like aluminum. We call it the alloy of plastics because it has good machining properties like aluminum, it is dimensionally stable and very tough. The material is resistant to oils, chemicals, UV light and abrasion



Made from tough Delrin
Lightweight
High resistance to abrasion
Wider rope opening with curved edges front and back
High heat resistance: maintains serviceable life with intermittent use at 140.5 C (285F.)
Melting point : 165 C (329 F)
Tensile strength at 73 F: 8,800 psi
Precision CNC Machined

http://www.winchline.com/fairleads.htm

Crash
04-20-2006, 07:55 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if the Delrin fairlead would require drilling of new placement holes just as the Warn fairlead does to fit the ARB correctly. Also, there are a couple of other reasons given by several of the synth rope vendors as to why a roller fairlead isn't recommended for rope such as the rope won't roll the rollers.

nakman
04-20-2006, 08:09 AM
It looks like those rollers are just replacement rollers- you'd still use your same fairlead, just unbolt the rollers and swap them out with the Delrin ones. But I agree with going with the fairlead that's just a slot for synthetic line.

Snorkel 1
04-20-2006, 08:23 AM
http://www.okoffroad.com/
Seth, check out the fairlead page on this site and see how your new fairlead compares. They offer an offset fairlead for ARB bumpers.

Well I just got off the phone with them. I ordered the offset fairlead they have and it will be shipped today so I should have it in plenty of time for CM. :thumb:

Seldom Seen
04-20-2006, 08:39 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if the Delrin fairlead would require drilling of new placement holes just as the Warn fairlead does to fit the ARB correctly. Also, there are a couple of other reasons given by several of the synth rope vendors as to why a roller fairlead isn't recommended for rope such as the rope won't roll the rollers.

A friend of mine turned me on to these guys 'cuz the ARB's on both of my trucks leave few options for mounting hause fairleads for syn rope. I gave them a call and they have come up with this solution with ARB's in mind. Here is what I learned

There is no need to remove your current roller fairlead, you just pull the pins and replace the rollers.

Syn. rope makers do not recommend the use of steel rollers 'cuz if the steel is nicked, scratched or damaged in any way it could leave a sharp burr that will damage your rope.

They recommended that you start with a fresh set of syn rollers when you put on a syn. rope. If the rollers do get scuffed, nicked or damaged, the damage will not leave a sharp burr that can cut your rope. Any injury to the roller can be fixed on the trail with emery cloth.

They claim the will take more abuse than steel. That remains to be seen, but where the rollers are positioned on my bumpers, I doubt the rollers would take a hit any way.

Bruce Miller
04-20-2006, 09:48 AM
Seth, We're currently machining replacement rollers for our Warn M12 fairlead using virgin teflon. Will let you know how it works out. What model of ICOM radio do you have? Are you an amateur radio op?

Uncle Ben
04-20-2006, 11:03 AM
Seth, We're currently machining replacement rollers for our Warn M12 fairlead using virgin teflon. Will let you know how it works out. What model of ICOM radio do you have? Are you an amateur radio op?

I'll buy and test a set! ;)

Bruce Miller
04-20-2006, 01:55 PM
Let's see what the prototypes look like and how they perform. We chose teflon because of its ability to handle temperatures up to 500 degrees. Delrin is good to 185 degrees. We were unsure what temperature the rope may get to as it slid across the rollers. The teflon costs $22.25 per foot, delrin is $5.50 per foot. If a combination of the slippery roller and the slippery rope won't allow the winching rope to turn the roller then the teflon was a good choice. If the rollers turn, maybe the next batch should be made out of delrin. I'll let you know as soon as we spool up the rope.

Uncle Ben
04-20-2006, 02:37 PM
Let's see what the prototypes look like and how they perform. We chose teflon because of its ability to handle temperatures up to 500 degrees. Delrin is good to 185 degrees. We were unsure what temperature the rope may get to as it slid across the rollers. The teflon costs $22.25 per foot, delrin is $5.50 per foot. If a combination of the slippery roller and the slippery rope won't allow the winching rope to turn the roller then the teflon was a good choice. If the rollers turn, maybe the next batch should be made out of delrin. I'll let you know as soon as we spool up the rope.

Cool! I am using a polished aluminum Marlin fairlead and it works great! Just always on the lookout for cool factor stuff! :hill:

Bruce Miller
04-20-2006, 03:38 PM
The Sept. 2004 Australian 4WD Monthly magazine had an ad from a guy in California who was machining aluminum winch fairleads with features that looked like a frog's head (anodized green), hot lips (anodized red), and a skull and crossbones (clear anodized). Really cool stuff but it would appear he's gone out of business. His web site was www.rockdancerproducts.com. I sent him an email and left a message on his phone number but no reply. Easy stuff to CNC machine. Just need an artsy person to draw the different features.

Seldom Seen
04-20-2006, 04:06 PM
Dyneema and Spectra the 2 fibers syn rope is made from both have a very low melting point. I don't recall the actual temp. I do know, for Spectra at least, you can melt a it by rubbing 2 strands against each other under moderate hand pressure. So any thing that would reduce friction like Teflon and decrease heat would great.

nakman
04-20-2006, 04:30 PM
One of those stories by Bill Burke that Wes posted yesterday (thanks, Wes!) mentions the detriment to synthetic line is actually "winching out," where you lower a vehicle using the winch, or just let out line with the winch running, instead of flipping the deal and just pulling. It's possible that the entire row of cable on the spool can melt doing this.. I though that was pretty interesting. fwiw.. :popcorn:

Snorkel 1
04-21-2006, 03:58 AM
Seth, We're currently machining replacement rollers for our Warn M12 fairlead using virgin teflon. Will let you know how it works out. What model of ICOM radio do you have? Are you an amateur radio op?

I think the model is Icom 2800 H but I will have to look. It came with another LC I bought. I have installed everything except the antenna in this LC because I have not finished the amateur radio class/book yet. I may have trouble convincing a cop that it is not functional but I hope I don't have to worry about that before I finish the class. Will you be at CM06? If so I would like to talk to you more about it. I have alot to learn.

Snorkel 1
04-21-2006, 04:30 AM
Dyneema and Spectra the 2 fibers syn rope is made from both have a very low melting point. I don't recall the actual temp. I do know, for Spectra at least, you can melt a it by rubbing 2 strands against each other under moderate hand pressure. So any thing that would reduce friction like Teflon and decrease heat would great.

Here is a quote form winchline.com - "The Viking Fire Line is made from Samson's Tec-12 (Technora Aramid Fiber) with Critical temperature of 450 F and melting or char point at 900 F, you will never have to worry about melting this line to your winch drum. "
I'm not sure what the melt point of the standard Amsteel Blue is though.

Uncle Ben
04-21-2006, 07:54 AM
Here is a quote form winchline.com - "The Viking Fire Line is made from Samson's Tec-12 (Technora Aramid Fiber) with Critical temperature of 450 F and melting or char point at 900 F, you will never have to worry about melting this line to your winch drum. "
I'm not sure what the melt point of the standard Amsteel Blue is though.


Amsteel Blue is rated at 275*F melting point. The only possible time you could generate that much heat would be winching out. Even then it would take an extended amount of power out winch time. Automotive winches, especially large ones, just don't have fast enough line speed to friction heat the line unless what ever you sliding the line accross has traction such as rubber or soft plastic.

Seldom Seen
04-21-2006, 02:13 PM
One thing that concerns me is, in situations that would cause a winch to heat up, the steel cable wound on the drum would act as a heat sink, drawing heat build up away from the winch. Synthetic line would act as an insulator and may have been a contributing factor in Bill Burke's experience with the 1st wrap melting.

I use cord made with the same fibers as AmSteel and Technora all the time for climbing. The cord is spun and woven to give it different handling characteristics, but the physical properties are the same. Let me share a few experiences both good and bad.

Technora is tuff stuff. Very heat, abrasion and cut resistant. So much so I ruined a new Spydaco knife trying to cut some into usable lengths. It won't melt, you can't burn it with a lighter or melt it with a soldering iron, to singe the end to keep it from fraying. You have to dip the ends in epoxy. Technora will hold a knot. The problem with it is, it does not like to be bent over acute angles under tension. The fibers are fragile and repeatedly running it over, say a fair lead, at an extreme angle will damage it. I use High Tenacity Cord, a Technora product, tied in various size loops for rigging anchors. The manufacturer recommends that any knots that have been severely loaded be untied and retied in a different spot in the cord because the fibers that are tightly wound in the knot can be damaged and subsequent loading may cause failure.

Using a winch line made entirely of Technora would make me nervous, I wouldn't want to repeatedly run it through a snatch block. A line using Technora as the 1st wrap around the drum would be the way to go, just don't spool it out far enough where it might be bent around the fairlead, use an extension strap, and it will last a long time.

the UHMWPE, in all its different forms is weird stuff. When its relaxed it is hard to cut, but put it under tension and all you have to do is think the word knife and watch out!! Make sure you pad any rocks it runs over or use an rub guard. Under normal use it is rather abrasion resistant and as Mr Burke pointed out it only fuzzes or pills, under not so normal use its not resistant and can be deadly, I'll explain latter.

The stuff slipperier than snot on a door knob, it wont hold a knot, no matter how hard you try. Tie a knot in it and pull the knot will come undone. Climbing gear manufacturers that use this stuff to make webbing will only sell it in sewn loops.

As slick as this stuff is I have had it wear right through the anodized surface of a carabiner in a matter of seconds under body weight. If for some reason I was winching in and out with the rope running over the some spot on the fairlead, I'd be sure to check for damage.

During a climbing lesson an instructor did a demonstration that realy made a point. He fixed a Dyneema sling to an anchor, ran a cord through the loop and "sawed" the cord back and forth. In a matter of seconds the cord went right through the sling. The heat from the friction had made the frayed ends of the sling stiff and brittle. Not a situation I would expect when winching, but something that can and does happen every year killing climbers. When winching I will avoid potential friction points at all costs.

Mr. Miller's post on the low melting point of Derlin has me rethinking my choice of synthetic rollers. I can see a potential problem if for some reason the roller didn't roll and the line ran across the same spot. I'm thinking I'll wait till he comes out with Teflon ones.

Disclaimer, I'm not a chemical enginerd, these are just my real life experiences with products made of the same fibers in situations where my life depends in them.

nakman
04-21-2006, 02:41 PM
Good stuff, Brian, thanks! Man between this thread and the tire thread I'm learning a ton this week.. plug I got a new water jug!

:risingsun

Uncle Ben
04-21-2006, 03:26 PM
Great info Brian!

There is a major differance however between the friction of a line going through a carabiner at a pretty fast rate compared to 30feet per minute or slower winch fairlead. I do like you first hand experiance information! It really puts things in perspective! :thumb:

Seldom Seen
04-21-2006, 03:51 PM
Great info Brian!

There is a major differance however between the friction of a line going through a carabiner at a pretty fast rate compared to 30feet per minute or slower winch fairlead. I do like you first hand experiance information! It really puts things in perspective! :thumb:

You might be thinking of a rapelling or lowering situation where the cord is moving pretty fast. You can't use the cord that way. The cord (or a winch line) can take it, the problem is the 'biner will heat up rapidly, not a problem if you keep moving as the cord is not in contact with the hot surface long enough to cause damage. The problem is when you stop, then the cord will melt. The situation I was in was static, the webbing (in this case) was looped through a 'biner and supporting my body weight. Just the motion of my body was enough to cause a back and forth movement between the webbing and 'biner and wear right through the anadization. Not a dangerous situation at all just an example of how something so slippery can still cause friction.

I'm not dissing Syn cable at all, I planning on using it when i figgure out the fairlead thing. I believe it's much safer than steel. Like so many other mods we do, when we change the parameters of a piece of gear we need to under stand the new limiting factors. I'm just hoping to add some insight.

Bruce Miller
04-21-2006, 06:22 PM
Why do you call me Mr. Miller? Is it because I'm a member of the AARP and I'm in bed by 8:30 every night?

Seldom Seen
04-21-2006, 06:35 PM
Why do you call me Mr. Miller? Is it because I'm a member of the AARP and I'm in bed by 8:30 every night?

Out of respect, sir.:thumb:

Bruce Miller
04-21-2006, 07:08 PM
Reminds me of Rodney Dangerfield. I saw him perform at Caesar's in Las Vegas. Great performance! Getting back to winches, I think most of them are only ornaments on a cruiser, like shovels, axes, and mud. How will we ever know that teflon rollers out perform delrin ones? Where would you go in Moab to test them both to find out? We'll never know. Since delrin is 1/4th the cost of teflon, delrin gets my vote.