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View Full Version : !!Important meeting to discuss reopening Rollins Pass!!


Tramontana
02-17-2010, 09:48 PM
So another dual sport motorcyclist on Adventure Rider has been pushing the status quo, and working to get Udall's office to sit down and discuss the reopening of Rollins Pass and/or Boulder Wagon Road reopened.

Cross posted from ADV:

As many of you know there has been a movement to reopen Rollins Pass for many years. There has also been similar feelings about the Boulder Wagon Road (which parallels Rollins Pass) ever since the USFS gated it two summers ago.

It looks like our persistence may result in a meeting.
Below in yellow is an email I recieved on 2-10-10 from Mark Udall's staff member / aide Doug Young. It was also sent to the staffs of the USFS, Gilpin, Grand and Boulder counties.

Hello County Commissioners et al:

I would like to suggest that we all get together to discuss the situation with the Rollins Pass road. As you all will recall, then-Congressman Udall included a provision in the James Peak Wilderness and Protection Area Act to explore the reopening of this road to 2-wheel drive traffic (that language is posted below for reference). I know that since this provision was enacted in 2002 there have been periodic discussion regarding this provision.

I would like to get together with you (or your designee) in the near future to discuss this issue and get a status report on where things stand.

Since there are a number of people on this email (including County Commissioners), I would like to hear back from folks about this suggestion and when such a meeting might work.

Also, if there are folks whom you know would be interested in this but I inadvertently failed to include on this email, feel free to share this with them.

Thanks,

Doug Young
Senator Mark Udall’s Office
(303) 293-0960

(excerpt from James Peak Wilderness Bill)

SEC. 7. OTHER ADMINISTRATIVE PROVISIONS.
(b) ROLLINS PASS ROAD.—If requested by one or more of the
Colorado Counties of Grand, Gilpin, and Boulder, the Secretary
shall provide technical assistance and otherwise cooperate with
respect to repairing the Rollins Pass road in those counties
sufficiently to allow two-wheel-drive vehicles to travel between Colorado
State Highway 119 and U.S. Highway 40. If this road is repaired
to such extent, the Secretary shall close the motorized roads and trails
on Forest Service land indicated on the map entitled ‘‘Rollins Pass Road
Reopening: Attendant Road and Trail Closures’’, dated September 2001.


I am hoping to get some good input and support to take to this meeting.
Lets put our heads together to come up with the best points to present at this potential meeting. Thank, Steve

nuclearlemon
02-17-2010, 10:32 PM
when's the meeting? if it's not during work, i'll go!!!:thumb:

timmbuck2
02-18-2010, 12:02 AM
I don't care when it is, I will BE THERE!!!!! very cool

Red_Chili
02-18-2010, 09:05 AM
Thanks, Boz!! There is a lot of potential in working together with motorcyclists!!!

MDH33
02-18-2010, 11:26 AM
This language doesn't sound positive:

"...If this road is repaired to such extent, the Secretary shall close the motorized roads and trails on Forest Service land indicated on the map..."

Do we have a copy of the map referred to?

Also, there is no support for a maintained two wheel drive road. BRD has a valid point that it would bring far too much traffic to an area that could not support it. Where would the $ come from to maintain it, patrol it, add improvements (like bathrooms) that would be required to handle the traffic?

The only way I see this working would be to open it as a 4 wheel drive route similar to Williams Pass.

:twocents:

Uncle Ben
02-18-2010, 11:37 AM
This language doesn't sound positive:

"...If this road is repaired to such extent, the Secretary shall close the motorized roads and trails on Forest Service land indicated on the map..."

Do we have a copy of the map referred to?

Also, there is no support for a maintained two wheel drive road. BRD has a valid point that it would bring far too much traffic to an area that could not support it. Where would the $ come from to maintain it, patrol it, add improvements (like bathrooms) that would be required to handle the traffic?

The only way I see this working would be to open it as a 4 wheel drive route similar to Williams Pass.

:twocents:

Very valid points Martin! I totally see your view and I agree with you!

Old40Dog
02-18-2010, 11:07 PM
I'm in, if I'm in town. We should make an extra effort to appear in great numbers just to send a message. Even if we're unsuccessful here, if we continue to appear in numbers any time these issues are up for discussion, it makes a point that "we actually care" about keeping or re-opening this type of access.

Martin, I wouldn't get too concerned about the dollars, s..t, they seem to find money for everything else in the world that somebody wants. that's just an excuse they give to taxpayers. So why not a few $ for some hard working, hard playing folks that actually "pay" taxes getting a little benefit for a change.

We not only need to be a "squeaky" wheel....we need to become a "SCREACHING" wheel that won't stop.....in order to be heard!

Just my $.02

powderpig
02-19-2010, 08:20 AM
I think what martin is refering to is the closure of other roads. It would be nice to know what these other roads are.

Red_Chili
02-19-2010, 10:26 AM
I believe that is a reference to the Boulder Wagon Road - already closed. :rant:

Red_Chili
03-05-2010, 02:45 PM
The meeting is no longer potential, it is actual!
Friday, March 12, at Clear Creek Ranger District

Christine from the BRD will be there, as well as Udall's representative.

Here is the email text. Martin, if you could be there, that would be wonderful.
SOMEONE FROM THE CLUB NEEDS TO BE THERE to represent our interests. I will be in Moab... but I can cancel that in order to be at this meeting, I need to know ASAP!!
Hello everyone.

I have now heard from most of you about having a meeting.

How about this date, time, and location:

Friday, March 12, 2010
9:00 am
Idaho Springs (location to be determined; perhaps the Forest Service’s Clear Creek Ranger District office, or Town Hall)

I'm suggesting Idaho Springs as it is convenient and centrally located for most Grand County folks and Front Range folks. Also, in the morning early to avoid any ski traffic.

Let me (and everyone on this email) know if this works. And if not, suggest a better date, time or place.

And Dan Lovato, could we use your offices, or, if not able to accommodate this group, any suggestions in Idaho Springs?

Thanks,

Doug

I will update this as I get more info.

MDH33
03-05-2010, 02:48 PM
Thanks Bill. I can definitely be there. :thumb:


The meeting is no longer potential, it is actual!
Friday, March 12, at Clear Creek Ranger District

Christine from the BRD will be there, as well as Udall's representative.

Here is the email text. Martin, if you could be there, that would be wonderful.
SOMEONE FROM THE CLUB NEEDS TO BE THERE to represent our interests. I will be in Moab... but I can cancel that in order to be at this meeting, I need to know ASAP!!


I will update this as I get more info.

SRT08BUS
03-05-2010, 02:48 PM
I can go but feel it would be best for someone that might be better suited for this would be best....but I'll be there for sure!

SRT08BUS
03-05-2010, 02:49 PM
Thanks Bill. I can definitely be there. :thumb:

you are the faster draw!

timmbuck2
03-05-2010, 02:52 PM
crap, I will be in Moab!

nuclearlemon
03-05-2010, 02:56 PM
The meeting is no longer potential, it is actual!
Friday, March 12, at Clear Creek Ranger District

Christine from the BRD will be there, as well as Udall's representative.

Here is the email text. Martin, if you could be there, that would be wonderful.
SOMEONE FROM THE CLUB NEEDS TO BE THERE to represent our interests. I will be in Moab... but I can cancel that in order to be at this meeting, I need to know ASAP!!


I will update this as I get more info.

wooohoooo...i'll be off work so i can be there. martin, brandon, i'll see you guys there

Red_Chili
03-05-2010, 03:07 PM
It strikes me that we MUST have clarification on
1) what road closure is meant by the bill in question? I assume it was Boulder Wagon Road, which was open at the time, and is now closed. That means we lose no routes.
2) what is the definition of 2WD road? The BRD (Christine, actually) is worried about a smooth graded gravel alternative to Berthoud Pass. We need to let the parties know that we are concerned about that, too. If the road is primitive, but generally accessible (in theory, even though not recommended) by high clearance 2WD vehicles, does that meet the intent? If so... then what other concerns can be addressed?
3) the tunnel should not be 'daylighted'. This would be a terrible loss. (IMHO and in the RPRA's opinion I am sure)
4) If concerns prevent the reopening of Needle's Eye- the possibility of opening Boulder Wagon Road, seasonally, with a minimum maintenance standard agreement with a sponsoring 4x4 club, as an alternative. This would be cheaper, it would provide a primitive connecting route, and could be made into an interpretive route with engraved signage including historic pictures. This could be a cooperative project with the RPRA, mtn bikers, motorcyclists, and other interested parties. It would be a WONDERFUL project.

4) would preserve what appears to be the intent of the bill- that is, at least ONE route connecting over the top. Now we have NONE.

Stress MULTIPLE USER GROUP participation!! Key words (and actual facts, not schtick, just communicate it!)

nattybumppo
03-06-2010, 07:01 PM
I can go too...until 1pm.

jacdaw
03-06-2010, 08:25 PM
It appears that I am available all day that day. It is on my calendar! :thumb:

Old40Dog
03-07-2010, 10:01 AM
I'll be in town, so I'll be there as well.

9:00 AM Friday, March 12, at Clear Creek Ranger District.

SRT08BUS
03-07-2010, 08:28 PM
Soooooooooo, we might be able to hit a trail:D

Blackdiamond72
03-07-2010, 09:27 PM
I'll be there. Then work right in town!:D

Red_Chili
03-07-2010, 10:47 PM
It appears the meeting date and time may be shifting around. Pretty annoying.

I will let Martin take on updating this thread with the final time.

MDH33
03-08-2010, 01:40 PM
Meeting date and time are still the same, Friday 9:00am, but they are trying to locate a larger venue that will accommodate everyone. I'll post up as soon as I have more details.

Old40Dog
03-08-2010, 05:29 PM
Soooooooooo, we might be able to hit a trail:D

Hoping to play hooky for at least several hours :D!

SRT08BUS
03-08-2010, 05:37 PM
Hoping to play hooky for at least several hours :D!

I was able to get the whole day:eek::D And it's a trail or I'm heading up to Echo!

I just reminded my self that I've had days off that have turned into half days, so I guess I shouldn't get to happy yet.

MDH33
03-08-2010, 06:41 PM
Ok. The final word:

Friday, March 12.
9:00am
Idaho Springs City Hall



I'm thinking either beers at Tommyknocker brewery or a snow run afterwards?? ;)

rover67
03-08-2010, 07:14 PM
Guys, thanks for attending! I will anxiously be waiting on news from the meeting.

Old40Dog
03-08-2010, 08:42 PM
Ok. The final word:

Friday, March 12.
9:00am
Idaho Springs City Hall



I'm thinking either beers at Tommyknocker brewery or a snow run afterwards?? ;)

How about a quick run, then lunch and beers :beer: They have a pretty good Rueben there! Lamertine Mine is really close by and with the snow we're getting it should be a fun run. Other ideas?

jacdaw
03-08-2010, 08:48 PM
Ok. The final word:
Friday, March 12.
9:00am
Idaho Springs City Hall
I'm thinking either beers at Tommyknocker brewery or a snow run afterwards?? ;)

My truck is not driftworthy yet but I am lunchworthy all the time.

Old40Dog
03-08-2010, 09:06 PM
My truck is not driftworthy yet but I am lunchworthy all the time. :beer:

I'm sure we can find you an empty seat John? Besides, I'm interested in what's taking you to CA for such an extended time.

jacdaw
03-08-2010, 09:51 PM
:beer:

I'm sure we can find you an empty seat John? Besides, I'm interested in what's taking you to CA for such an extended time.I was typing on my phone and my thumbs were to tired to ask for a co-dog spot, but that was my hope. As for my Cali story, okay, I guess I'll save it for Friday.:p: But the teaser is last year I went from October thru January, so this time it's relatively short.

MDH33
03-09-2010, 12:17 AM
My truck is not driftworthy yet but I am lunchworthy all the time.

All it takes to be drift-worthy is a recovery point. :hill:

jacdaw
03-09-2010, 12:28 AM
All it takes to be drift-worthy is a recovery point. :hill:I have the factory hook in the front and a really nice 2" receiver shackle in the back. I've got a FLAPS snatch strap that I have never needed to use. I'm poor, and I need to be able to drive to Cali in about 3.5 weeks, so I can not afford to break anything. Literally. I'm more than happy to co-dog on this one. And then a beer and a snack sounds like a good wrap to the day. And as we slide down the hill we can watch the backup going up the hill.

MDH33
03-10-2010, 08:58 AM
Meeting - Workshop to Re-open Rollins Pass

Friday March 12th 9 AM

Idaho Springs City Hall
1711 Miner St, Idaho Springs, CO 80452

There is seating for 50 people and the meeting is open to the public.

MDH33
03-10-2010, 09:55 AM
So it's 9:00 in the morning during a work day? Crud. I was hoping Kirsten (she's a civil/structural engineer and currently an architecture grad student) and I could make it, but alas this is not possible.

Yes, business hours for the government folks I guess. It would be great if the two of you could come somehow. take a 1/2 day off maybe?

Uncle Ben
03-11-2010, 03:13 PM
Just wanted to post here too that Ige and I are meeting in Idaho Springs for breakfast before the meeting. 07:30 Kings Derby (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=2801+Colorado+Blvd,+Idaho+Springs,+CO+80452&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=45.688268,75.322266&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=2801+Colorado+Blvd,+Idaho+Springs,+Clear+Creek,+Colorado+80439&ll=39.742521,-105.497611&spn=0.01089,0.018389&z=16).

MDH33
03-11-2010, 03:15 PM
Just wanted to post here too that Ige and I are meeting in Idaho Springs for breakfast before the meeting. 07:30 Kings Derby (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=2801+Colorado+Blvd,+Idaho+Springs,+CO+80452&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=45.688268,75.322266&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=2801+Colorado+Blvd,+Idaho+Springs,+Clear+Creek,+Colorado+80439&ll=39.742521,-105.497611&spn=0.01089,0.018389&z=16).

I'll meet you there, if you don't mind saving me a spot. :thumb:

treerootCO
03-11-2010, 06:05 PM
I wanted to bump this thread to the top. If anyone is reading this, and feels they won't add value or are too new to the club, I highly recommend you consider attending. This is a great opportunity to show your support and your physical presence is more than enough. The meeting, not breakfast, for those that think tangents are funny.

Here is a link for those that may not be familiar with the Rollins Pass Road:

Rollins Pass Road (http://www.rockymountainprofiles.com/Rollins%20Pass.htm)

You may have also seen discussions regarding Jenny Creek and the Boulder Wagon Road. Jenny Creek and Rollins Pass have been adopted by Rising Sun and many hours have been logged maintaining and improving the road. For that matter, many hours have been logged supporting the local ranger districts in their efforts to maintain and improve these roads. The Boulder Wagon Road is a secondary route over Rollins Pass aka Corona Pass that passes to the North instead of following the railroad grade through the Needles Eye tunnel.

Old40Dog
03-11-2010, 08:09 PM
I was typing on my phone and my thumbs were to tired to ask for a co-dog spot, but that was my hope. As for my Cali story, okay, I guess I'll save it for Friday.:p: But the teaser is last year I went from October thru January, so this time it's relatively short.

You're in! Zach's coming too, so we'll put him in the back. I'm not too sure if I can get over in time for breakfast, but we'll see everyone at the town hall.

treerootCO
03-11-2010, 08:25 PM
I would have thought the members of the the Rollins Pass Restoration Association would have this meeting on their calendar of upcoming events. We must be united to achieve the goal of reopening the pass even with the inevitable compromises that need to be discussed. The RPRA would like the road to be accessible by all 2WD vehicles. Christine from the BRD mentioned the costs of maintaining a 2WD road as a reason the pass may not be opened again. I'll link the RPRA in this thread and ask if anyone knows if they are aware of the meeting tomorrow. The language used in the memo above is very similar to the RPRA's thoughts so I assume they are involved. (http://www.moffatroad.org/RPRA/RPRA_Home.htm)

http://www.moffatroad.org/RPRA/RPRA_Home.htm

SRT08BUS
03-11-2010, 08:26 PM
Just wanted to post here too that Ige and I are meeting in Idaho Springs for breakfast before the meeting. 07:30 .

I'll try, but will most likely be running late, the meeting on the other hand I'll be 10 minutes early!

MDH33
03-11-2010, 10:18 PM
I would have thought the members of the the Rollins Pass Restoration Association would have this meeting on their calendar of upcoming events. We must be united to achieve the goal of reopening the pass even with the inevitable compromises that need to be discussed. The RPRA would like the road to be accessible by all 2WD vehicles. Christine from the BRD mentioned the costs of maintaining a 2WD road as a reason the pass may not be opened again. I'll link the RPRA in this thread and ask if anyone knows if they are aware of the meeting tomorrow. The language used in the memo above is very similar to the RPRA's thoughts so I assume they are involved. (http://www.moffatroad.org/RPRA/RPRA_Home.htm)

http://www.moffatroad.org/RPRA/RPRA_Home.htm

Thanks Mike, I think someone from RPRA was following the thread on Adventure Rider. so, hopefully they're planning on being there.
I hope You're planning on attending too! Having you, Ige and Kevin there will be great since you all have a lot more knowledge of the work the club has done up there than I. :thumb:
:thumb:

SRT08BUS
03-12-2010, 05:57 PM
I REALLY hate going in front of people to speak, but it was worth it!

MDH33
03-12-2010, 07:05 PM
Thanks everyone from Rising Sun who made it to the meeting.

jacdaw
03-12-2010, 07:21 PM
I REALLY hate going in front of people to speak, but it was worth it!I think most people in the room appreciated what you said Brandon...except for Ben Pearlman of course.

SRT08BUS
03-12-2010, 09:25 PM
Thanks John, and it was really good meeting everyone!

nuclearlemon
03-12-2010, 11:54 PM
it's long....and i'm tired, so sorry about the quality, but you will get the picture.



There was awesome attendance by the multi use community and the Rollins Pass Restoration Association. In addition, were

Councilman Doug Young from Sen. Udall's office, Commissioner Nancy Stuart from Grand County, commissioner Pearlman from

Boulder Cty, Christine Walsh from the Forest Service, commissioner Buddy Schmaltz from Gilpin Cty, and commissioners Newberry

and Baumgartner from Grand Cty (via phone). there were about two anti motorized recreation folks. There was also a rep from jared Polis' office.


First question related to the wording in the James Peak Wilderness Act, regarding what is meant by "attendant" road and trail

closures that would be closed if Rollins Pass was opened. It is added to clean up any spurs and illegal bypasses, but could

(not will, but could) also mean the closure of Jenny Creek. Also, Boulder Wagon Road is, for lack of a better word,

protected in the James Peak Wilderness Act, but it is not exempt from closure through the Indian Peaks Wilderness Act. Young

couldn't find the map referred to in the JPWA.

The biggest issue is what is the legal status of the road? Is it a cty rd? a railroad right of way? a forest service road?

That will determine who is reponsible for the road.

The JPWA states that if one or more counties requests the road be opened, the forest service has to help facilitate opening

the road. Gilpin originally requested it be opened about five years ago, and restated that in another letter, which i have a

copy of, in 2009. Pearlman confirms that it has been about five years ago since it was first discussed.

Pearlman states three major issues. Liability, environment, and lack of funding. Boulder cty did have to pay out when the

fireman was injured in the 90s and he stresses that he's trying to protect the taxpayers money. He went onto point out that

while he has us looking for multi use, he also has a lot of folks that dont' want motorized that he also has to consider, the

n that the forest service is stretched thin financially already.

Steve Green was quick to rebutt the non motorized folks have thousands of acres between James Peak, Indian Peak and multiple

other areas, while OHV routes are sparse already and all we are asking for is 2 roads, each about six miles long (thats the

length of the trail in Boulder County) of a road that's supposed to be open.

Ron Chaney, VP of the Rollins Pass Restoration Assoc, stated that not one rock has fallen since the issue in the 90s, the

trail is safe and that Pearlman needs to remember that it's not his money, it's the taxpayers, which includes the multi use

groups. He also wanted to know why Pearlman says they have talked about it numerous times, but there are no reports to show

they've discussed it.

RPRA has offered numerous times to pay to have the tunnel inspected by a professional using tomography (kind of like xraying

the tunnel), but Boulder is not willing to do it. Christine Walsh says the FS doesn't have the resources to do allow it to

be done. They have to request a special permit before an engineer can go inspect the tunnel (which a fellow FS ranger has

said takes all of about 10 minutes), then they'd have to see about the environmental impact of getting someone with equipment

to go up and move the jersey barriers so the engineer could get into the tunnel with his equipment.

Someone also pointed out that there is still liablilty having the trail closed, as mtn bikers ride to the tunnel then carry

their bikes down off the top. someone could easily slip and fall and end up down the hill in yankee doodle lake. Pearlman

pointed out that it was supposed to be safe when it was reopened in the 90s also, but it wasn't.

Someone asked if Boulder would relinquish the road to Gilpin and/or Grand County, Pearlman ignored the comment. It was also

pointed out that Gilpin and Grand County have discussed a 'Tunnel Authority' which would take liability away from the

counties. Pearlman says he's never heard anything about it, but would like to see the proposal. Everyone I spoke too felt

that he was still reluctant about it. Gilpin County pointed out that they are still all for the tunnel authority and Grand

County seconded the emotion.

at this point, Pearlman started to state that he had to leave as he had another meeting to attend. he saved one hour for a

meeting that was slated to last three hours....there's dedication :rolleyes:

Juanita Straight of the RPRA was glad to hear Pearlman referring to the road as a county road and wanted to know why it

hasn't been maintained. When the road started to get bad, a lot of the residents of Rollinsville volunteered to maintain the

road, using their own equipment and Boulder County told them no. She also stressed getting the tunnel opened long enough to

send the engineer in to do tomography of the tunnel.

Ann Vickory of the Indian Peaks something or another spoke on behalf of hikers and anti access crowds regarding people going

off trail and blazing illegal routes or bypassing obstacles and Commissioner Newberry from Grand County reassured her that

Grand Cty is not against wilderness and has hundreds of Wilderness area. They would want illegal routes closed, but not at

the expense of the legal routes. Blazing trails in the six miles that we are requesting be opened is highly unlikely as

there is a 45 degree wall on one side of the road, and a 45 degree dropoff on the other side. Baumgartner from Grand Cty,

then reinforced that the trail was not supposed to be permanently closed.

Jerry Abboud of COHVCO inquired as to the type and limit of their insurance. They are self insured to $150k/person up to

$600k. He pointed out under Tort law the 90's incident wouldn't have cost as much as the check they'll be writing for the

Rocky Mtn Christian Church lawsuit (I don't know what he's referring to, maybe a boulderite could fill us in...this was

referred to a couple of times). The purpose of Tort reform was to allow the entities to do more for the people, not less.

Paula Becker, a motorcyclist with a background in Wildlife Biology and backcountry studies, pointed out the dangers to other

trails by removing trails and forcing a growing group onto a smaller number of trails. She stated that the excessive use is

the damage that Ann is talking about, not blazing new trails, at which point Pearlman showed his ignorance by stating he was

sick of "us" threatening to go wherever we wanted if they closed the trail,which was never once said or even inferred. He

made a couple more ignorant comments along the same lines before finally shutting up and leaving.

Next up was Christine Walsh, who may have learned to like Rising Sun with all the work we've done in the last few years, but

it wasn't at all evident today. She stated that ownership of the road is very sketchy, Rollins Pass Road has been deeded

back and forth between the Interior Dept, the FS and the Railroad Authority so many times, plus, there are issues with

counties thinking it's theirs while the FS thinks it's theirs. Gilpin and Grand Counties have been maintaining the road

using Schedule A, where the FS and the County come to a mutual agreement as to which trails in the county to maintain and

while the county maintains it, the FS pays for the maintenance. The road is also designated as a historical route, which

complicates any future maintenance, since everything done to the road has to be approved by the Historical Commission. In

order for the counties to claim the road, they would have to get the ok from the Historical Commission. Then an EIS would

have to be done because of the historical aspect. Christine estimated that this would cost R$3/4 to $1million dollars and

would take a very long time. and the FS doesn't have the money to do it. Grand County doesn't care who has ownership, they

will continue to claim there portion of the road and maintain it using rs2477. Counties could pay for the EIS, with the FS

overseeing everything. If they went this way, they would be free to maintain the road as a county road.

The FS is very uninterested in opening the tunnel because along with Boulder Cty, they were also part of the lawsuit and had

to pay out a lot of money. Tort protection does not apply to the feds.

Jerry Abboud asked about a federal finding as a result of the 90s incident, which would've been standard and Christine had no

information.

Someone asked if the historical label also applied to BWR, to which Christine wasn't sure, but she said that was part of

Indian Peaks Wilderness and opening the trail is not an option. The law that Udall set draws BWR and Rollins Pass both out

of the JPWA, but does not mention if they are part of IPWA. Christine also talked about Kingston peak since it's a lot of

high altitude tundra like Rollins Pass and said something about IPWA acquiring that trail also, so enjoy it while you can

:mad:


Someone asked if it was ok for the user groups to do fundraising and/or donate to pay for the EIS. Yes, but the engineers

would report to the FS. We would be cut out of the loop information wise.

Other issues that Christine states the FS has a problem with are the width of the road is only 150-300' so off trail would be

an issue...again. there's a wall on one side and a cliff on the other...i don't see an issue. Also, counties would have to

maintain and monitor it. She also is set on the fact that there would have to be amenity's like bathrooms and picnic tables

"because the public would expect it". Any studies needed couldn't be done because, while there is a Section of the Federal

Lands Program that covers federal highways and roadways, that the forest service gets are currently being used up to work on

the bark beetle issue, then, they will have to work on water issues. And and EIS would have to be done to the road before

they could even determine who is responsible for the road. Grand County has been claiming their section since 1953 as a

county road.

In the end, BWR was brought up and Christine flat out refused to talk about it. As for Rollins Pass, Christine stated that

the FS would follow Boulders example. Doug pointed out that the FS cannot be an obstacle when it comes to getting the road

opened back up.

Doug has promised to have Udall's office look into who has legal ownership of the road, but stated that it would take a while

because there will be lawyers involved. He requested that Gilpin and Grand counties send the tunnel authority proposal over

to Boulder County again. He wanted to get someone up to inspect the tunnel, this is where Christine said that can't happen

and went into her speal about special use permits. He asked the two counties present what they wanted the road to be and it

was agreed that they both wanted it to be a 2wd passable road, to open around July 4th every year.

Where it goes from here, i won't even speculate, but it's a start.

sank
03-13-2010, 12:55 AM
Whew! so exciting and so frustrating all at the same time. I would have loved to go, but work etc... Excellent writeup of the meeting that many could not make. Thanks!!

As for the money Boulder County spent on Rocky Mountain Christian Church, it went something like this:


2003 - RMCC wanted more space for their children and asked for permission to add temporary buildings
Boulder County granted approval, pending master site plan ("forever" plan for their 55 acres)
RMCC complies at a cost of over $1 mil. RMCC later learns no other applicant had been given this requirement. Church proposal is to use 30% of their land. Boulder County rule-of-thumb is to use 50% of your land.
Boulder County denies permit, asks court if what they did was legal. Judge AND Jury say: not legal to discriminate against church after approving similar permit for Dawson school. Boulder County was found guilty of violating the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act
Boulder County appeals a losing case, and loses.
2010 - Federal Judge orders county to pay church $1.3 mil (only a portion of what the church has spent on the issue)
Google news search pulled this up: http://www.speroforum.com/a/25713/Christians-win-lawsuit-against-county-government-in-Colorado


So, the geniuses at Boulder County paid a ton in legal fees, and an additional $1.3 mil to RMCC. The church lost a lot of money; the county lost even more, and as usual, the lawyers win, and Rollins pass is still closed.

As a Boulderite and a voter, I will do what I can when election time comes (I always do, but it seems fruitless).

Uncle Ben
03-13-2010, 08:12 AM
Thank you Ige! You outlined the just of the day very well! I would like to add that every time Christine was cornered she came back with the excuse that ALL BRD resources are tied up right now with bark beetle mitigation. Christina was reminded that the USFS is a vehicle set up to aid and enforce county, state and federal forest service infrastructure rather than being a governing force. It was also reminded that if the legal right a way is determined to be county control the FS would be required to do the EIS. Christine responded by threatening that due to BRD resources being diverted so heavily towards the bark beetle it would likely be 2 or more years till they could do or oversee the EIS.
I pointed out that the road is deteriorating and last year the washout did considerable damage and the road was band-aide repaired. I asked what happens now with this tied up with entities deciding who has control. I reminded that with this years heavy snow pack in the high country that the road could have worse runoff damage. I got no answer, as expected, but I did spark an alert in several folks that hadn't thought about this issue. I reminded that if the road becomes dangerous it will get a "temporary" closure like Needles Eye tunnel did!

I also wanted to add that Summit county has been willing and was the one who graded and repaired the road in the past until BRD refused to pay due to "no resources." Summit is offering to not only blade their section again but pay for that maintenance but the BRD would have to agree.

As you and everyone have painfully realized now is that BRD and Boulder County are the HUGE hurdles that have to be jumped in order to move forward. I think we, RS, need to let both Grand County and Summit County know we are willing and able to help them however we can. I also plan on a road trip when the Corona Pass opens later this year and snoop around the other side of the gates.

nuclearlemon
03-13-2010, 08:33 AM
uncle ben means gilpin county...he's had summit cty stuck in his head.;)

Uncle Ben
03-13-2010, 08:41 AM
uncle ben means gilpin county...he's had summit cty stuck in his head.;)

Ya what she said! ;) :hill: Thank you again Ige!

Mendocino
03-13-2010, 09:06 AM
I have not followed this closely but have had a lot of experience with the FS and other government entities when it came to land use and environmental concerns. What I have found is that the FS and local government never respond to requests to do something, they only respond to law suits. I humbly submit that if the multi-use really wants to get this opened they will have to sue. This could be in an ADA claim, or something else, but I doubt anything will happen unless there is a threat of litigation.:(

Rezarf
03-13-2010, 09:48 AM
I also plan on a road trip when the Corona Pass opens later this year and snoop around the other side of the gates.

I'd be game, it is one of my favorite drives in the area.

Thanks so much for all the RS'ers who attended :risingsun:

I am so proud of our club.:thumb:

Drew

SRT08BUS
03-13-2010, 10:52 AM
Christine responded by threatening that due to BRD resources being diverted so heavily towards the bark beetle it would likely be 2 or more years till they could do or oversee the EIS.

I think she said 5 years but could be wrong.

SRT08BUS
03-13-2010, 10:53 AM
I'd be game, it is one of my favorite drives in the area.
I'm game!

jacdaw
03-13-2010, 08:43 PM
Thanks for taking meticulous notes Ige! They agree with my memory.:D


As a Boulderite and a voter, I will do what I can when election time comes (I always do, but it seems fruitless).We can start by not reelecting Ben Pearlman. He clearly believes he has a mandate and refuses to listen to the part of his constituency that doesn't agree with him. I plan on campaigning hard but with reason against him when he runs again...hopefully people will listen.

jacdaw
03-13-2010, 08:49 PM
Jerry Abboud certainly had Pearlman on the ropes a few times, and Pearlman is a lawyer. Was fun to watch him squirm. But I wonder where Multiuse would get that kind of money? We have donations lined up, but not the million+ legal action would require. I have not followed this closely but have had a lot of experience with the FS and other government entities when it came to land use and environmental concerns. What I have found is that the FS and local government never respond to requests to do something, they only respond to law suits. I humbly submit that if the multi-use really wants to get this opened they will have to sue. This could be in an ADA claim, or something else, but I doubt anything will happen unless there is a threat of litigation.:(

Old40Dog
03-13-2010, 09:02 PM
Thank you Ige! You outlined the just of the day very well! ........I also plan on a road trip when the Corona Pass opens later this year and snoop around the other side of the gates.

Yes! Thanks Ige! :beer: (Darn...I knew that's what we were missing with lunch...he...he...)

I'm thinking along the same lines as you, Kevin. Perhaps even hiking or even backpacking if overnight is necessary, past the gates provided we can park somewhere, in order to see first hand what the trail looks like up there. Is it in the bad shape we heard....or is it just a spot or two in need of some more extensive maintenance? That'll give us some real insight into where the opponents to the re-opening are really coming from~:cheers:

Old40Dog
03-13-2010, 09:08 PM
I have not followed this closely but have had a lot of experience with the FS and other government entities when it came to land use and environmental concerns. What I have found is that the FS and local government never respond to requests to do something, they only respond to law suits. I humbly submit that if the multi-use really wants to get this opened they will have to sue. This could be in an ADA claim, or something else, but I doubt anything will happen unless there is a threat of litigation.:(

After a few preliminary questions are answered that is certainly an viable option! We need to keep the heat turned up on this thing or they'll just wear us out by dragging it out....That's also why a "look...see" of the area is so important for us to better understand if there's truly some real issues up there or just excuses.....

MDH33
03-14-2010, 10:10 AM
Awesome write-up Ige! Thanks. :thumb:

Red_Chili
03-14-2010, 05:47 PM
Christine is the mistress of bureacratic passive-aggressive roadblocks. She can pull a regulation out of... lots of places, and craft it to block any action she does not want to take.

You can bet if an environmental group she is quite friendly with (koff koff Indian Peaks Wilderness Association koff) wanted to do something, she would bend the regs the other way.

Part of the pressure that needs to be brought to bear is, to point out that she is not being a problem solver, but rather that ANY input she has had on this issue is negative, and blocking. That is not what she was hired to do. Her job is to point out options and solutions that comply with NEPA, the Forest Plan, and desires of the local constituency. Bring it up publicly, repeatedly, and often. :rant:

The USFS is to render aid on this issue, per the JPWA - not to block at every turn.

SRT08BUS
03-14-2010, 05:55 PM
Christine is the mistress of bureacratic passive-aggressive roadblocks. She can pull a regulation out of... lots of places, and craft it to block any action she does not want to take
You can bet if an environmental group she is quite friendly with (koff koff Indian Peaks Wilderness Association koff) wanted to do something, she would bend the regs the other way.


I was in the back sitting next to the wilderness lady and Christine was nodding and looking towards here the at times. I was waiting for here to start :cheer:leading for her.

jacdaw
03-14-2010, 06:10 PM
I was in the back sitting next to the wilderness lady and Christine was nodding and looking towards here the at times. I was waiting for here to start :cheer:leading for her.IIRC the IPWA person you sat next to would be Anne Vickery. How ironic would it be if she is related to the Vickery Motorsports folks?:lmao:


She's the chairman of IPWA (http://indianpeakswilderness.org/ipwa_board.htm)

nuclearlemon
03-27-2010, 08:34 PM
from Steve Green, Adventure Rider and huge driving force behind getting the roads opened back up.


Hi All,

Reference: Rollins Pass Road and the Wagon Road

I sent this letter today. (It might look a bit wonky since I cut and pasted it into the email.)

After our meeting in Idaho Springs on the 12th I felt it was necessary to go over Boulder Ranger Christine Walsh's head to her superiors. Please feel free to use all or any part of my letter.

Steve

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



March 27, 2010

Regional Forester Rick Cables 740 Simms Street
Golden, CO 80401



Dear Mr. Cables,

I am writing you about two different roads over the same pass on the Colorado Front Range. I am referring to the Rollins Pass Road (FR 149) which predominantly follows the old D&SL RR grade and the Wagon Road (aka Boulder Wagon Road) which is the original 150 year old road over this pass. Both of these roads cross the Continental Divide at the same point and are historically and geographically linked. These roads are located within the boundaries or the Arapaho and Roosevelt National Forests.

James Peak Wilderness Protection Area Bill states:

PUBLIC LAW 107–216
SEC. 7. OTHER ADMINISTRATIVE PROVISIONS
(b) ROLLINS PASS ROAD.—If requested by one or more of the
Colorado Counties of Grand, Gilpin, and Boulder, the Secretary
shall provide technical assistance and otherwise cooperate with
respect to repairing the Rollins Pass road in those counties sufficiently
to allow two-wheel-drive vehicles to travel between Colorado
State Highway 119 and U.S. Highway 40. If this road is repaired
to such extent, the Secretary shall close the motorized roads and
trails on Forest Service land indicated on the map entitled ‘‘Rollins
Pass Road Reopening: Attendant Road and Trail Closures’’, dated
September 2001.

Both Grand and Gilpin Counties have requested in writing to the USDA Secretary to re-open Rollins Pass Road the Needle’s Eye Tunnel. The Rollins Pass Restoration Association and many individuals have also written. The Rollins Pass Road and the Needle’s Eye Tunnel remain closed. The USFS Arapaho and Roosevelt National Forest Boulder Ranger District has stubbornly stood in the way of reopening this road.

The "attendant" roads (the Wagon Road) was closed by the USFS in spite of a well known understanding that it was to remain open so long as the Needle’s Eye Tunnel was closed.

The wilderness bill specifically recognizes and mandates the Wagon Road as a motor vehicle maintenance easement for the natural gas pipeline that parallels this road.



JAMES PEAK WILDERNESS BILL
PUBLIC LAW 107–216
"(2) NATURAL GAS PIPELINE.—The Secretary shall allow for
maintenance of rights-of-ways and access roads located within
the Protection Area to the extent necessary to operate the
natural gas pipeline permitted under the Arapaho/Roosevelt
National Forest master permit numbered 4138.01 in a manner
that avoids negative impacts on public safety and allows for
compliance with Federal pipeline safety requirements. Such
maintenance may include vegetation management, road maintenance,
ground stabilization, and motorized vehicle access. "

Arapaho & Roosevelt National Forests Order No. 10-00-03 Motor Vehicle Travel and Developed Trail Restrictions
Arapahoe and Roosevelt National Forests (A&RNF) dated June 10, 1999 closed both the Wagon Road and a section of the Rollins Pass Road.

Can one law say "closed" and another say "open" for roads in the NF ?
Which law should be observed ?
Why has the USFS closed the Wagon Road in spite of a contradictory law stating it should remain open ?
Why has the USFS closed a section of the Rollins Pass Road in spite of contradictory laws stating it should be re-opened ?
Why has the USFS not followed the law pertaining to Rollins Pass Road as enacted by the Congress of the United States ?
Why has the USFS not acted upon the request of the Gilpin and Grand County Commissioners to re-open Rollins Pass Road ?
Your kind attention to this matter and answers to the above questions are greatly appreciated.

Thank You,



Steve Green





Cc: Senator Udall, Grand and Gilpin County Commissioners

SRT08BUS
03-27-2010, 09:55 PM
I'll send my own, but that was as well said as it needs to be. i was thinking this was something that needed to be done. I'll type it out in the morning after I get some rest. I just got back from China Wall and I'm beat!

ArloGuthroJeep
05-04-2010, 10:43 AM
from Steve Green, Adventure Rider and huge driving force behind getting the roads opened back up.


Hi All,

Reference: Rollins Pass Road and the Wagon Road
...
Steve Green

Do you know if Steve ever received a response back regarding his letter?

QuadsWest
07-03-2010, 01:40 AM
Hi guys, I'm new to the forum but found you because I've been searching about the Corona/Rollins Pass closure. I snowmobile a lot on the Corona side (west side) and I'd really like to take a drive all the way over the top of the Continental Divide. I've read this entire thread and would like to ask what I can do to help out. I have a forum that I run called QuadsWest.com and I know there are a lot of guys on there that would prefer to see this pass re-opened. I also know a lot of my snowmobiling buddies would like to see it opened as well. I'll post up whatever info I can over there about working to get this pass opened up.

Is the Boulder Wagon Road open at all or is the FS still dragging their feet on this? Thanks all.

PAUL

sank
07-04-2010, 12:19 AM
Today I walked a loop around BWR to the tunnel and back via the main road. BWR does cross wilderness, there is a sign up at the "top" of the boulder side of the saddle that says "no motor vehicles behind this sign" or something. The gas pipeline is, for sure, right along the road, but without needing to do work on the pipeline, vehicle access is not permitted. However, I definitely saw tracks from two-wheeled vehicles that must have driven around the blockades.

Anyway, BWR is closed at Jenny Creek on the East side, all the way to where it meets Rollins Pass Road on the Northwest side of the tunnel. I'm sure you've seen the gate from your end. It does not open: http://www.traildamage.com/trails/photo_pop.php?d=rollins_pass_west/070813&f=second_parking_area.jpg (looking East)

Off Topic: the snow bank at the top of the jenny creek trail is still blocking access to the trail from that end. I'd give it a couple more weeks.

Red_Chili
07-04-2010, 01:12 AM
While the BWR is indeed closed... that 'no motor vehicles' sign does not signify Wilderness. The Indian Peaks Wilderness is quite close... but it does not cross it. In fact the maps show the BWR as a boundary.

I have heard nothing regarding any movement on the BRD's part... but they would have no motivation to do so. :rant:

MDH33
07-06-2010, 10:24 AM
While the BWR is indeed closed... that 'no motor vehicles' sign does not signify Wilderness. The Indian Peaks Wilderness is quite close... but it does not cross it. In fact the maps show the BWR as a boundary.

I have heard nothing regarding any movement on the BRD's part... but they would have no motivation to do so. :rant:

I saw a recent map and most of the BWR looked to be within the wilderness boundary. Not sure if this was a change when the Indian Peaks were expanded, but I would guess it is. I'll see if I can get a copy and post it up.

ArloGuthroJeep
08-21-2010, 10:48 PM
BRW is on the MVUM...so how the hell it is still freaking closed is beyond me:(

Red_Chili
08-24-2010, 11:01 AM
On the mvum is, by my lights, just an indication the closure has some sketchiness to it. Not open but not gone. Satisfies the IPWA (see above). :rant: