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View Full Version : Changing out a cam on a 22RE


RockRunner
03-22-2010, 08:36 PM
After driving Randy's rig in Moab last week I really enjoyed the cam he has in his motor. It is a RV cam I believe made for mid range torque. Our set ups are identical so I know what I can expect from installing one.

I need to know how long a job this is and if there is anybody out there that can help me. I am sure I do a lot of it my self but engines are not my thing. I would like to do this before Moab if possible but if not that is OK.

Also what else can I do to increase my power while my head is off, not that head :rolleyes: I don't have a ton of money to spend on it but do have some.

All suggestions are welcome except for the bigger engine ones :( Not enough cash for that right now.

rover67
03-22-2010, 08:46 PM
turbo :D

that's more cash though...

Red_Chili
03-22-2010, 10:13 PM
Interesting... I ran the same cam and head in the '93 and loved it. Idled great! Dave, I think maybe your cam timing is off. Try an adjustable cam sprocket maybe?

TIMZTOY
03-22-2010, 11:14 PM
it sounds to me like your not tuned properlly.. problly off by a tooth or 2, check to see if your adjustable cam sproket moved some.. of corse check all this at TDC cylender 1

jacdaw
03-23-2010, 02:27 AM
<sniup>Heck, I would trade even the whole engine for a decent running old 22R as long as it idled smooth, let me run 85 again and gave me back my lost few MPG.When my body rots off, I will have what you're looking for and it will likely have less than 100k miles on it. With a new carburetor it might even get more than 11mpg on 85. Actually on Sunday I drove up to Evergreen and then down to Roxborough through Conifer, then home on Wads hitting almost every light red all the way to Lafayette with just the left hub accidentally left locked in and I got just over 12mpg for the day. Pretty good for me for half hiway/half city driving. It idles like a champ at about 750.:rolleyes:

Red_Chili
03-23-2010, 07:13 AM
...i Got Just Over 12mpg For The Day...
Youch!!

Red_Chili
03-23-2010, 07:14 AM
it sounds to me like your not tuned properlly.. problly off by a tooth or 2, check to see if your adjustable cam sproket moved some.. of corse check all this at TDC cylender 1
Dave, that makes two... I bet your fix might be a whole lot easier than you think.

rover67
03-23-2010, 07:43 AM
Dave, Did you degree the cam when you stuck it in?

RicardoJM
03-23-2010, 07:56 AM
I need to know how long a job this is and if there is anybody out there that can help me. I am sure I do a lot of it my self but engines are not my thing. I would like to do this before Moab if possible but if not that is OK.

I don't have the experience you are looking for, but I have recently found that I am learning much more about 22r/re engines. I'd like to lend a hand/learn when you take this job on and will be watching this thread.

RockRunner
03-23-2010, 09:26 AM
Dave, it sounds good. PM me your number so we can talk, very interested.

I have a Engbldr 261C cam in an RV head (he slightly ported the chambers) with oversized valves. You are welcome to trade heads with me, I absolutely hate it and want a stock one back. I run a bored out throttle body, 4-to-1 headers, 2-1/2"LCE intake from the AFM to the TB. Still slow, just gets worse gas mileage and idles like sh!t. The only thing I did not do when I built this engine is lower the block deck or use domed pistons (it was a brand new factory short block, just about the last one in the North American parts system).




I'm serious, straight up trade for a decent stock head and throttle body.




Dead serious.




Really.

RockRunner
03-23-2010, 09:33 AM
Dave what level cam did you put in? Sounds like a level two for more mid to upper range power. I want to put in the level 1 for low end torque. Maybe we can meet up and try each others motors and make a deal. Who knows this may be a win win situation.

RockRunner
03-23-2010, 09:35 AM
I don't have the experience you are looking for, but I have recently found that I am learning much more about 22r/re engines. I'd like to lend a hand/learn when you take this job on and will be watching this thread.

Thanks, I will take all the eyes and hands I can get. I just have to figure out what I want/need to do. Maybe work a deal with Dave, we'll see.

Air Randy
03-23-2010, 09:39 AM
Tom,

If you're happy with the head you have you don't have to pull it off just to install a new cam. But, whats he's offering you is exactly the same head and cam that I have on mine. Just make sure the compression on your bottom end is good. Bring it over to my place and I'll give you a hand, the 22RE are pretty easy to work on. Unless your timing chain is fairly new you probably want to replace it at the same time.

Or, maybe Dave wants to swap the entire motor?

Dave,

You got something wrong with yours buddy. I have the same head and cam and it starts the instant you hit the key, idles perfectly, never pops and seems to have torque like a 2F. What was really nice was you could lug it down to 1100-1200 rpm at Moab crawling obstacles and then drive right on through it without winding it up. Ran just like a good ol' 2F. The big difference I noticed from when I had the stock cam is on top end. The stock cam would pull up into the low 5,000 rpms. With the 261C it goes totally flat at 4500 rpm. Makes sense since it was made to take away on the top end and give it more torque on the bottom end.

It really sounds like your issue may be more related to the modified injection system, maybe a bum injector?

Air Randy
03-23-2010, 09:42 AM
Dave,

I may have a spare stock throttle body you are welcome to. If yours has a problem I'm not sure we want to transfer the issue over to Tom's truck when he's headed for Moab.

rover67
03-23-2010, 11:25 AM
Dave (Sorry Tom for the hijack)..

So you degree'd it with a degree wheel and an indicator on the valve? The cam should have some with a cam card that had a recommended setup (like x lift at x degrees). Depending on the motor and the desired results you'd degree it differently. You know that another option besides an adjustable cam gear is to use an offset cam key... they are usually pretty cheap. I've used them on a few motors that were close.

Seems like with all the stuff done to it it should really be a runner. I am sure the ignition timing is perfect, and again with everything done to it it makes sense that you'd be running a little lean before richening it up a bit.

Anyways, 222* duration is not that wild, it should idle smooth as a stone and fire right up. Sounds like a good low RPM cam. I haven't build too many crazy N/A motors, but the wildest (which can't really be considered THAT wild) had a 286* duration cam in it and it fires right up and idles well at about 900RPM. Sounds lopey, but it idles on all cylinders.

I dunno, maybe you went through all this, but I figured I'd throw it out there.

Edit: It's not a POS, sounds like a sweet setup.....

Red_Chili
03-23-2010, 12:23 PM
Take your adjustable cam sprocket and twiddle till she sings. You'll get it. You gotta be sorta close, just tweak it. Should run like a champ.

TIMZTOY
03-23-2010, 01:02 PM
I think he said that that the adjustable Sproket is not installed.

It actually sounds More like a fuel issue now that I read back on all of dave's posts. What's your timing set at ? You should need a bit more whith a more agressive set up

Air Randy
03-23-2010, 01:16 PM
I think he said that that the adjustable Sproket is not installed.

It actually sounds More like a fuel issue now that I read back on all of dave's posts. What's your timing set at ? You should need a bit more whith a more agressive set up

X2. I would be focusing on the FI system and all it's bits & pieces before I start tearing into the cam. I'll bet the cam & cam timing are fine. As long as you understand the 261 C is a true crawler cam and that it moves all the performance down to the bottom end it will be OK. I'm wondering though, for a DD 22RE where having the high rpm performance might be better, you might want to consider swapping in EB's 270/430HO cam for better on street performance.

Dave-If you need to take your vehicle out of service for a week or two in order to get it fixed and running right, I'm more than happy to loan you the 40 or the mini to drive until you get yours back on the road.

Have you asked Robbie to take a stab at diagnosing your rig?

rover67
03-23-2010, 03:07 PM
Weird, seems like he would have given you angles to check the cam position at. Also, I missed the part where you said you had an adjustable cam gear you hadn't installed yet, that's why I was suggesting offset keys. Sorry about that...

That popback you describe sound like the pop that I've heard carb'd motors make when they are idling too lean. does it pop back through the intake?

Maybe we need a new thread "Help diagnose Dave's Engine problems" before we continue to muddle Tom's thread..

Anyways, check this out.. lifted from the isky cam site, you can check and see if it is near Ok without taking anything really apart:

CHECKING VALVE OVERLAP WITHOUT DEGREE WHEEL OR DIAL INDICATOR
When installing a camshaft, or when an occasion arises where it is necessary to make a check on valve timing and no appropriate instruments are available, the recommended Isky procedure is as follows:

Insert the camshaft and mesh the timing gears on the stock marks. Do not as yet install the timing gear cover.
Using a long wrench or lever, turn the engine over in the normal running direction. Use enough leverage to get an even, steady movement instead of a jerky motion. Rotate until the intake and exhaust valves of No. 1 cylinder are in the overlap position (both valves opened slightly). Stop exactly on T.D.C., which is marked on the harmonic damper.
Now loosen and back off the rocker arm adjusting screws until the intake and exhaust valves are just barely closed. Lock the tappet adjustment screws so that the intake and exhaust valves are at exactly zero clearance.
Now turn the engine over exactly one revolution of the crankshaft to T.D.C. on the harmonic damper. You are now at T.D.C. on the compression or firing stroke.
Take notice! Now there is a large space between the rockers and valve stem tips. This space indicates the actual amount the valves were open at T.D.C. of the overlap period (less valve lash, of course).
We will measure this gap space by probing with common feeler gauges of various thicknesses combined until we determine the gap space. After computing the gap, record the figures for both intake and exhaust in your notebook. If the amount of gap on intake and exhaust is exactly the same, you have a perfect split overlap.

RockRunner
03-23-2010, 03:23 PM
This is whta I was thinking of getting for a cam and BB throtle body (http://www.toyotacatalog.net/M1WebGear/ProductDetails.aspx?PartUniqueID=9F79D3FF-3169-4CEE-B794-A731A422C546) Ialready have the exhaust and intake so I should be good with just those two parts.

I know I don't have a race engine in the 22RE but a little more grunt is always nice. Plus I do not want to dump to much money into it as I still plan on changing motors in the future, most likely a 2.7 since it is easier unless I win the lottery:rolleyes:

So what do all you engine builder guys think? I thought about a new head by the motor is only 4 years old with maybe 20K on it.

Air Randy
03-23-2010, 04:39 PM
Tom,

With that low level of miles on it, and if it's not burning oil (like worn valve guides) then I wouldn't bother replacing the head. The actual performance benefit you get from the EB head is marginal. I put mine on because my stock head was shot (and the EM bolt holes were severely stripped out) and I got the head used but almost new for virtually nothing.

If you put in the 261 C cam we can do that without pulling your head, but you will need to get the RV cam valve springs & retainers. With the adaptor to shoot air into your cylinders we should be able to replace the valve springs too without pulling the head.

I don't know enough about 22RE's yet to detrmine if it's worth the coin to mess with the upgraded TB.

Dave-Did you see this from the website link Tom sent? If you do the TB upgrade like you did, they recommend: " Depending on the amount of miles on your vehicle, it is recommended to consider upgrading fuel injectors to a matched and flowed set. "

I'm still thinking you have a fueling issue, I would start with checking the injectors. It just seems like a cam issue would be 100% consistent, missing the same way every time when it's sitting there idling. Plus unless the cam timing is WAY off it should have nothing to do with hard starting.

Air Randy
03-23-2010, 06:22 PM
Also, I seem to remember reading on Prate about an issue with 22RE injector harnesses. Seems like it's common to get intermittent connections to the injectors that cause lots of weird problems. They suggest you pull everything out where you can see it and then resolder all of the connections.

RockRunner
03-23-2010, 08:13 PM
Dave,
I have the header and intake already. I just need the cam and maybe TB.

Randy,
I will check and see what the price is for the parts needed. I will call them in the morning. May see if there are less expensive folks out there too. May need to do this before Moab:D

TIMZTOY
03-23-2010, 08:15 PM
if it truly is a overlaying valve issue you could easilly tell by putting each cylinder at TDC.. i would verify that by looking thought the sparkplug tube's ( i have a bore scope if ya need to borrow) then use this leak down tester (which i also have, and you can also borrow) and if you have air comming out your exhaust or intake.. your timing is off.. and your valves are off .. quick and easy and all you have to do is remove your spark plug and you know were to look.. and you know your timing is off. either by your chain or your vavles are out of adjustment.. if you dont ahve any air then your know its more than likely a fuel issue:thumb::thumb:

Red_Chili
03-23-2010, 08:34 PM
Also, I seem to remember reading on Prate about an issue with 22RE injector harnesses. Seems like it's common to get intermittent connections to the injectors that cause lots of weird problems. They suggest you pull everything out where you can see it and then resolder all of the connections.

It's the ground connection crimp, and from what I read it is fairly high up in the harness. But that could easily explain your issues since Randy brings it up.

Tell ya what, though... have you called Ted and described your symptoms? Ted and Tod are a wealth of 22RE knowledge.

Air Randy
03-24-2010, 10:41 AM
I can tell you this, even though my enginebuilder head only had a few thousand miles on it, it had one of the worst valve seatings jobs on it I had seen. If I didn't spot it and have the machine shop re-do the valves properly, I would have ended up with lower compression on some cylinders due to the poor seating.

I still think you have a fuel related issue though. If you have a snotty injector that isn't closing cleanly it could be dribbling fuel during the exhaust stroke which would explain black crap out of the tail pipe even though your plugs are burning clean. That could also give you the occassional pop or backfire too. Didn't you also say you thought you were getting some post combustion burning in the exhaust manifold too?