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Inukshuk
04-19-2010, 06:10 PM
My air conditioning is not cold anymore. Can anyone recommend where I should have it looked at, of anything else I should check first?

Compressor works, belt is still there, fuse is good, compressor kicks in.

Thx! :thumb:

Dr. Schlegs
04-19-2010, 06:59 PM
Freon leaked out? O-rings dried up and Freon escaped.

rover67
04-19-2010, 07:00 PM
this close to moab just throw some more freon in it...

I mean, I'm sure it leaked somewhere, but if the compressor still cuts on it still has some freon in it.. It'll leak down again, but deal with it after the trip..

74fj40
04-19-2010, 07:02 PM
If the r134a leaked out the compressor would definitely not be kicking on as the low pressure sensor the not allow it to.

Are you 100% that the compressor clutch is engaging?

Inukshuk
04-19-2010, 07:13 PM
this close to moab just throw some more freon in it...

How?

If the r134a leaked out the compressor would definitely not be kicking on as the low pressure sensor the not allow it to.

Are you 100% that the compressor clutch is engaging?

Its a 1993 and I believe R-12. Not 100% sure, but engine revs up and nothing sounds or acts out of the ordinary.

74fj40
04-19-2010, 07:27 PM
Hmm most shops are still able to put R12 in your system if that is the route you choose to go, but R12 is expensive and not something I would want to do twice.

ttubb
04-19-2010, 08:02 PM
There should be a label near the top of the radiator that states R12 or R134.

rover67
04-19-2010, 08:04 PM
you can go to Autozone and get the fill tube thinggie and a can of freon for pretty cheap.. it comes in a package together. then just hook it up and let it suck it in as it runs.

I know people say it's a no no, but i've mixed 134-a and r 12 and it's been fine. Even put in 134-a on r12 systems without doing the o-ring changes and it has done OK.

The "conversion kits" they sell are just basically o-ring kits and adapters so you can hook up the 134-a fill tube to the r-12 port on the truck

I know that on several cars i've worked on the freon was "low" enough to not cool, but still had enough pressure to kick the low pressure switch on. Usually it just takes a half a can or so to do that.

Look and see if it takes r-12 or 134-a and then go from there. If it takes r-12, you'll need the "conversion kit" and chances are that the kit from autozone will have what you need. just walk in there and tell them what's up and they'll actually be able to help you... I think...

Inukshuk
04-19-2010, 09:07 PM
There should be a label near the top of the radiator that states R12 or R134.

Nice - label says R-12

TIMZTOY
04-20-2010, 12:53 AM
if its r-12 please dont convert it to r134a.. r134a is crap compared to r12.. there is a enviromentally OK verson of r12 that dose not harm the enviroment. and will not harm your system like r134a will. 134a in a 12 system will runin you system and damage componets.. i dont want to get into it.. just go to napa and buy the stuff called "freeze 12" its a epa aproved version of r12..

r12 is colder than r134a
and freeze 12 is colder than r12 :thumb: ive used it on several cars and it is absoltuatlly wonderfull stuff.. and its only a cupple bucks a can.. basically the same price as r134a :thumb: use the 134a conversion adaptors so you have the quick disconects (easier to add the freeze 12) because you dont have to find r12 hoses..

granted someone will probly say "no your wrong" well thats because r134a is very cold when used in a r134a designed system.. but NOT in a r12 system..

powderpig
04-20-2010, 07:09 AM
Freeze 12 is a mix of R134(80%) and R142 (20%). R134 is know to react badly to older oil in R12 systems.
Here is a link to the EPA site on what is reviewed for replacements for R12
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/macssubs.html

Some of these mixes with R22 will destroy the inner liner of older hoses and require a changing of the hoses to retro fit.
All R12 today sold is recovered and recycled R12. That is why some of the higher cost, whole sale is about 32/can for 12 oz and about 24 dollars a lb if you have a license(legally any how). That is why you could see about 60/lb for R12.
It usually take less than 2 lbs for a recharge of R-12. Really for the best thing for the eviroment is to find the leak(take a charge with die), recover the r-12 ,fix the problem. Charge it back with R12. (as long as you do not need to change the compressor or other high dollar componet).
Most of the other refrigerants do not have the heat carrying capability's that R-12 has. R134a has about 60% efficiency of r-12.
It is a choice. But the statement of fix and fix it right the first time if you have the funds is a great way to do it.

powderpig
04-20-2010, 07:23 AM
It looks like people with R134a are going to have to be going through some of the same things in the future. R-134a has some negative effects on the upper layer of the air bag.
It hangs in the air for 14.5 years and can effect many different things. It seems in my reading that the USA is a hold out for r-134 currently. New cars may have something different in the in the very near future.

frontrange
04-20-2010, 07:30 AM
I would never convert an R12 system to 134, it will never work as well as it used to. The biggest problem with R12 alternatives is your system will now need to be serviced by someone with dedicated recovery equipment for the hybrid mix. I would never hook my R12 recovery system up to a system contaminated with any of these blends.

If you want to do the repair right you need to put a dye charge into the system and run it long enough to find the leak like powderpig says. The dye kit uses a dye that glows when illuminated with a UV lamp. Fix the leak and recharge with R12. That's the old school way to do it.

Inukshuk
04-20-2010, 07:45 AM
Great stuff. Can anyone recommend an R-12 source [EDIT: a place that would charge the R-12 for me] in Denver?

frontrange
04-20-2010, 07:52 AM
Not quite that easy. You need an EPA license to buy R12. Although you can get one of those without too much trouble, IOT fix the problem you also need a recovery unit and tank, vacuum pump, charge scale, etc.

If you don't mind driving down to Monument I could help you out, you can PM me. You might fist shop around Denver, it's probably not worth the drive down here when there are plenty of shops where you are.

Inukshuk
04-20-2010, 02:45 PM
Update: Thursday morning Greg at the Toy Shop is going to convert me to R-134. About $200 complete. He will evacuate the remaining R-12 and uses an R-134 with an oil compatible with any remaining in the system. He does not flush out the system. He will check for the leak and replace seals. New refrigerant will have dye in it. I have known Greg for about 12 years and he is what I'd call my regular shop (though I do use our other guys as much as possible - i.e., see the WBPP thread with my shiny new slotted and cross drilled rotors from Slee.)

Thanks for all the input. It was helpful to choosing my course of action.

I'll report back after :thumb: or you'll see me at CM wearing a ski hat in my rig!

frontrange
04-20-2010, 02:54 PM
I'd fix it right for a half of that (cost of R12), but it's your ride and your call.

TIMZTOY
04-20-2010, 04:11 PM
I've never had or herd or any problems or side affects to the system when using freeze 12. Granted I've always had access to the Proper evap, vacume. & storage A/C machines. So I could always do it properlly and get all the old gas out. But that's my opnion and I'll always use freeze 12 if I needed to recharge another r12 system.

Inukshuk
04-20-2010, 05:59 PM
I'd fix it right for a half of that (cost of R12), but it's your ride and your call.

Much appreciated offer! I think if I thought I could get several more years by just charging, it would be worth the drive to Monument and $100 less. What do you think? It has always been strong (and I have always made sure to run it a few times in winter to circulate the oil) and now nothing. So I suspect a leak let it all out, but I may be wrong. I'm not trying to spend money when I don't need to and I'm not super picky about my rig. I like to try lower cost options when I can.

frontrange
04-20-2010, 06:50 PM
If it is still cycling the compressor, you have a slow leak but it is not yet starved of Freon. All automotive AC systems rely on a refrigerant charge to circulate oil to the compressor. No charge, no oil circulation. A pressure switch will kill the current to the AC compressor clutch when you are down to no charge so you don't grenade the compressor and contaminate the system with metal filings.

If it were my ride I'd put a dye charge in there and top off just enough R12 to get the system back to working. It may take a few hours for the dye to show a really minor leak and I'm guessing you wouldn't want to hang around a couple hours or more to see the leak show itself.

I could let you borrow my UV light - check it after a few hours of run time and identify the point where it is leaking. My recovery unit takes about 20-25 minutes to completely drain/recover the R12 so you can open it up to replace the failed O-ring. Its another 10 minutes or so to recharge the system with a measured charge and button everything up. Not a big deal, but two trips unless you want to wait around for everything to be done in a single trip.

TIMZTOY
04-20-2010, 07:17 PM
I too have a uv light you can borrow don't know were frontrange is located but i'm in littelton ( if it makes life eaiser ) Can a r134 sniffer detect r12 ?? If so my shop has a sniffer and you wouldn't have to Wait For the dye to show, but we cannot work on r12 systems. (no licens, no equipment) I'm personally not a fan of dye because I've herd stories about the dye causing damage to the compressor because it's not oil. Or somthing goofy like that. I've never experanced it so it's all (myth) buy I know it's not in there from the assembly line so it problly shouldn't be In there. But it does make working on the system a Hell of a lot eaiser. Lol

frontrange
04-20-2010, 07:29 PM
I too have a uv light you can borrow don't know were frontrange is located but i'm in littelton ( if it makes life eaiser ) Can a r134 sniffer detect r12 ??

I don't think so, but since I don't work on 134 systems I'm just guessing the chemistry is too different. I should have a sniffer, but the leaks I run across show up very quickly with dye and dye works everywhere - power steering fluid, ATF, coolant you name it. The dyes are different, but the kit with the goggles and light is just one kit with a bunch of dyes.

TIMZTOY
04-20-2010, 07:50 PM
Correct. Same reason I have it. Just so convient.

Inukshuk
04-21-2010, 09:55 AM
Mostly due to timing and convenience I am going to drop it off to Greg tomorrow. Frontrange and I had a good PM exchange and his offer of assistance was really great. Tim, you too. I bet the three of us could have had a good wrenching session.

I just don't have the time right now before CM. I'll report back tomorrow afternoon

TIMZTOY
04-21-2010, 11:40 AM
Any time!:beer:

Inukshuk
04-22-2010, 07:18 PM
Its done, R-12 out, R-134 in + dye, and blowing cold, but on a day like today its all cold. There was no obvious leak found. System held vacuum for 1/2 hour, which is of course less pressure than inside the operating A/C system. We'll test it soon in moab.

Hulk
04-22-2010, 11:18 PM
Did they find a leak and fix it?

You may find that your A/C isn't as icy frigid with the R-134. Still better than none at all, though.

ScaldedDog
04-23-2010, 04:38 PM
Its done, R-12 out, R-134 in + dye, and blowing cold, but on a day like today its all cold. There was no obvious leak found. System held vacuum for 1/2 hour, which is of course less pressure than inside the operating A/C system. We'll test it soon in moab.

So, where'd you take it? I'd like to get the AC working again in our 4Runner, if for no other reason than to assist in defogging the plastic Canback and half door windows.

Mark

Inukshuk
04-23-2010, 06:02 PM
No leak detected. Greg said that he commonly has people come in with the AC having failed after a winter of inactivity but holding a fine charge after that.

Shop is the Toy Shop. Greg Kochiss, owner. 1185 S. Cherokee St., Denver, CO 80223. (303) 744-7621. I have been a customer for 12 years. Naturally, I also frequently go to our club member and supporter Slee Offroad.

frontrange
04-24-2010, 06:52 PM
Sad to say it sounds like your mechanic is just winging it. A slow leak with R12 will surely become a much faster leak with R134.

Inukshuk
04-25-2010, 12:20 AM
Steve,

I will report back. I do agree that I will probably need to go back in there to replace seals when i have more time. If this keeps me cold in moab then I'm happy!

frontrange
04-25-2010, 08:43 AM
If the way I worded my last post offended you I apologize. What I'm trying to say is that your original problem was a slow leak. Removing the original R12 charge and replacing it with R134 will only make this problem worse since R134 is much more prone to leakage than R12.

Inukshuk
04-25-2010, 10:52 AM
I apologize too :bowdown: :o - I originally posted the last one late after watching the av's lose :rant: and a few 12 oz curls. No offense taken whatsoever! :beer: :thumb: First thing I did this AM was edit.

Evrgrnmtnman
04-26-2010, 02:57 PM
I need to get the A/C on my 88 Pickup fixed. Not sure if it has a leak, needs a compressor, dryer or what? Would like to say with R12..anyone have any recommendations on where to take it?
Thanks

Inukshuk
05-03-2010, 11:03 AM
No report yet. It was cold enough in Moab and on the drive not to use A/C!

Inukshuk
04-05-2011, 05:32 PM
Long term status report: 11 months later, 72 degrees, cold A/C.