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View Full Version : Tips for plugging brake line during maint?


coax
05-23-2010, 09:29 AM
This week my cruiser gets a brake refresh, including all new soft lines, rotors, calipers, and pads. Does anyone have some tips on what I can use to plug the hard lines so all the fluid doesn't drain out while I'm swapping soft lines and calipers? I'm trying to avoid putting air up into the abs and master cyl. Would an earplug work? Not sure what types of materials would react or break down in brake fluid.

Corey

TIMZTOY
05-23-2010, 09:49 AM
Here at work I've always used a piece of bulk hose mabey 2" long either 1/16" or 1/8" diamater what ever fits the flaired end tightlly and i shuve a bolt in the other end to act as a plug. And slide it up as far as you can with the bolt already init at liest 1/2" past the flare. Works perfectlly then when your done very little bleeding. Never had a issue with it breakig down or melting. And if it does who cares it's free bulk hose (for me) mabey $2.00 for you if you have to buy it

coax
05-23-2010, 07:23 PM
Cool I'll give that a try. I have a bunch of fuel or heater hose left. Wasn't so much concerned about the material itself, but something contaminating the brake fluid. Got the new rotors on, hopefully the lines will be coming from Dan in the next day or two.

TIMZTOY
05-24-2010, 02:57 PM
The only way your going to contaminate the brake fluid is if you leave it open to the atmosphere. It collects moisture. Any ways your going to have to bleed it when done. So the tip of fluid at the plug will be flushed out the first pump of bleeding.

AddictedOffroad
05-26-2010, 12:53 PM
Vacuum caps are sweet. In most cases I only need one pump on the brakes to bleed and I use them religiously.

MDH33
05-26-2010, 01:12 PM
Never a bad idea to completely drain it and refill with new fluid, especially if it hasn't been done in awhile and you're adding new parts.

wesintl
05-26-2010, 01:16 PM
Vacuum caps are sweet.

that's what i've always used. :hill:

coax
05-26-2010, 01:43 PM
Hrm super good idea! And I think I have a few vacuum caps laying around. Dan's package of new brake lines, washers, and pads arrived yesterday to pair up with my mediocore new calipers from napa. (though I forgot to order new banjo bolts...so I'll have shiny rotors, hoses, calipers, pads, and an old bolt :rant: ) And yep, I'll do the full on flush again. Had flushed a few months back, but definitely will do it again. Being a n00b, just was nervous about any petroleum contamination.

Thanks all.

Hulk
05-26-2010, 05:14 PM
What's a vacuum cap?

AddictedOffroad
05-26-2010, 06:43 PM
What's a vacuum cap?

http://www.streetsideauto.com/productlist.asp?SubID=2782

coax
05-26-2010, 08:10 PM
Ok so got about 1/3 the way through the brake job today. Vacuum cap worked fabulous to plug the flared end on the hard line while I messed with calipers. That was the part of the job that went well :D

However, I'll shortly be starting my thread of "things the PO did that make me angry". The list is long, but the one that got me today was the shims freaking glued to the brake pads. Boo! :eek: (As I am new to this, is this an accepted practice? I have never seen it before.)

So I have 2 questions for you all.


Are the shims necessary for the brakes on these, both front and back? The fronts are pretty much toast as they are COVERED in some glue, and I have no shims for the rear as the pads that came off had some sort of integrated shim in them. Was thinking since some folks run hundo series pads without shims, that maybe its ok to do it? Not sure I'll have time to track some down before the weekend, but if its not safe I wont drive it.
Being that I was too cheap to get Toyota Calipers, the napa ones came with some wear indicator that doesnt quite match the FSM. I put it on the upper side of the pad, as opposed to the lower. Think it makes any difference?


http://lh6.ggpht.com/_RHGIeuamB_E/S_3USpFuNQI/AAAAAAAAAfg/c6zzU2S16GI/s720/DSCF2618.JPG

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_RHGIeuamB_E/S_3UTeeUzCI/AAAAAAAAAfk/i2jYzNXwXfc/s720/DSCF2619.JPG

Notice the little clip at the top of the brake pad...I guess its the wear indicator. Not sure if it goes on the top or bottom.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_RHGIeuamB_E/S_3UUbOAt8I/AAAAAAAAAfo/TmevRtZoQBs/s720/DSCF2620.JPG

At any rate, I got all rotors on, both passenger side calipers done, and two soft lines replaced.

TIMZTOY
05-26-2010, 09:10 PM
yes you should use the shims they keep down the squeek.. that "glue" is actually brake grease. to also keep squeeks and rattles away. its normal.. you can drive on anything as long as the pad material is facing the rotor.. but i highly reccomend using the brake grease and shims togther.. you dont need to go over kill like the PO did.. and the grease dose not need to be between the shim and pad.. only on the outside of the shim and any contact areas that slide on the caliper.. but like i said you dont need either for the pads to operate..

corsair23
05-27-2010, 12:04 AM
IMO no worries running the pads without the anti-squeal shims for the time being, even forever if you can live with the potential squealing...As you mention, when you fit on 100 series pads up front on the 80, the shims won't fit (initially) anyway. For the most part my fronts are quiet. Now that you've done the hard part though, going back in and installing shims later probably wouldn't take you but an hour for all 4...You'll spend more time jacking up the truck, pulling tires, etc. than installing the shims.

As for the wear indicators...I can't remember which way I installed mine other than I followed what the FSM showed. IIRC they were on the bottom of the pads but whadda I know. Bottom seems to make sense as they would get pushed down and away when they start hitting vs. down and into the pad if they were on the top (if that makes sense). If the caliper dictates placement though go with it...

For anti-squeal I used the CRC Disk Brake Quiet (http://www.amazon.com/CRC-Disc-Brake-Quiet-oz/dp/B0007N1ZPO) stuff...seems to have worked fine

Don't forget to bed in the new brake pads properly - lots of "suggestions" on the web via Google search but I followed this one --> Brake Bed In Procedure (http://forum.ih8mud.com/3123042-post14.html)

A lot easier that the 8 stops from 60 to 0 you'll see suggested by some...Oh, and this only applies to the front pads...You'll smoke the front pads trying to bed in the rear pads :hill:

EDIT: Just looked at the picture in the FSM for the rear brakes (that you have pictured above) and it looks like Mr T shows the wear indicator at the top :rolleyes: - I don't even see anything in the FSM regarding the front wear indicators...Good thing I have a FSM and don't work on my truck from memory :hill:

coax
05-27-2010, 08:38 AM
Ok so called the toyota dealer in ft. collins, and all the shims are order-items. Not only that, but they are crazy-expensive. I think 45-ish bucks for the front and like 26 for the rear. I think I may just put a thin coating of brake grease between the pad and caliper and run them for a while.

So....out of curiosity does anyone have some shims they dont want cause they went to 100 series pads, or had some extras lying around? I'd much rather spend my money on beer for someone than 75 bucks for tiny pieces of metal from toyota.

I also asked about a combo pad/shim kit from toyota, but apparently not an option for the 80 series? Might have to shoot Cdan a pm.

corsair23
05-27-2010, 06:17 PM
That's crazy :eek: - I'd definitely call CDan or Derek at Stevinson or Jerry at Boulder Toyota. Something doesn't sound right.

Did you try cleaning up the old ones? Mine were nasty gross but I was surprised at how well they cleaned up with some brake cleaner. I'd give you my shims but I really do plan on putting them back on, someday :)

coax
05-27-2010, 09:31 PM
Yep, so that was my second thought, to clean up the shims. So I did that, and promply noticed that the shims are not oem either! If you look closely in the pic with the pads, you can see that only about 2/3 of the piston actually contacted the shim, because its too small and the wrong shape. boo.

So...I just put a thin film of brake grease between the pads and the pistons, and we'll see how that goes. I'm at 6/7 soft lines done, and all the calipers pretty much bled. Have to try my luck at bleeding the lspv tomorrow, and if it passes the final inspection, off to Utah this weekend!

corsair23
05-28-2010, 12:36 AM
:cool:

I didn't find bleeding the LSPV to be any different than bleeding the calipers...Don't get discouraged though if you have mushy brakes after bleeding the brakes the first time around. Just do repeat the process until everything feels good. Are you doing the power bleeder method or the old school 2-person manual method?

coax
05-28-2010, 07:50 AM
Are you doing the power bleeder method or the old school 2-person manual method?

I've been going with the old school 2 person method. I do have a motive sitting in the garage, but last time I tried it on the 80, I ended up with a puddle of brake fluid on the floor. If the 2 person deal doesn't work out, I may try it again and see if I can get a better seal on the MC reservoir. Plus new hose clamps for it, since it leaks there too :\

coax
05-28-2010, 10:00 AM
Wow...so tons of air in the lspv. It just seems to keep flowing. I bled the system once, then went around and did the 4 wheel cyls again, and then back to the lspv, and there is still air there. Hopefully there is not air coming into the system somewhere, but I see no leaks, so hopefully just a good sign that there was tons of air in teh system before and getting it out now.

corsair23
05-28-2010, 10:30 AM
I do have a motive sitting in the garage, but last time I tried it on the 80, I ended up with a puddle of brake fluid on the floor. If the 2 person deal doesn't work out, I may try it again and see if I can get a better seal on the MC reservoir. Plus new hose clamps for it, since it leaks there too :\

First time I tried the Motive I didn't have such great results either...Second go around things went much, much better - obviously a tight seal is critical. I've found the Motive to be awesome for when you are flushing the fluid or changing out major components like you did. For the times when you just change pads etc. IMO the Motive is more work than it is worth, if you can find a helper to do things the old school way.

Still might try those Speed Bleeders someday though...

coax
05-28-2010, 01:03 PM
So got everything back together but brakes are still pretty spongy. I may try and pick up another quart of fluid and try the motiv again. I must have already put 1.5 quarts thruogh the system and got no air bubbles at the end. *sigh*

corsair23
05-28-2010, 01:20 PM
So got everything back together but brakes are still pretty spongy. I may try and pick up another quart of fluid and try the motiv again. I must have already put 1.5 quarts thruogh the system and got no air bubbles at the end. *sigh*

80s seem notoriously hard to bleed for some reason...At least you see a lot of threads on MUD in regards to difficulty bleeding the brakes. On the :Princess:'s 80 it took me 4 rounds to get it good (and all I did was change the rotors and pads) - First attempt was using "suction" on the bleeder based on a thread I read. That didn't work at all...Second attempt was with the Motive power bleeder and that didn't work so well either (didn't know how to use it :rolleyes:). Third and Fourth attemps were the old school two person system. First round of that go the brakes ok and the second round made them :thumb:.

Given the amount of work you did I would have guessed it will take you 3+ rounds of bleeding to get them right...Just keep at it...

If you try the Motive again, I'd suggest 2 Qts of fluid...Dry test the Motive per the instructions to insure you have a good seal. Then fill with the 1.5 Qts of brake fluid and run an equal amount through all 4 corners plus the LSPV keeping an eye on the reservoir. Run all the fluid out of the Motive + about 1/2 of the reservoir. Then use the last bit of new fluid left in the bottle to top off the resevoir.

Don't rely on seeing the bubbles stop...Just run a lot of fluid through each corner and the LSPV and hopefully all will be well.

coax
05-28-2010, 07:39 PM
No luck. Did a few rounds with the motive, a few more 2 person rounds, both with the cruiser running and not. Used up 2 more quarts. Cracked the lines into the MC and abs with the motive on there, got fluid out but no air. Pedal still has very little resistance and wont build up pressure after multiple pumps. I'm beginning to question the MC, even though it was "seemingly" good before starting this. Used a block under the brake pedal, but maybe it was rusty enough in the bore...or there's just tons of hidden air in teh MC.

Looks like another mazda-to-the-desert weekend :\

TIMZTOY
05-28-2010, 11:52 PM
Use the motive with the brake pedel locked all the way down. And if the try k has abs there might also be a blessed on there as well. (don't have 80's memorized) if not I belive you can bleed the abs by actuating the abs electronically to get the pump actuating. Just diffrent methods of bleeding hard to bleed systems

coax
06-28-2010, 09:48 AM
In my fruitless attempts to get this system to bleed after 8 quarts of fluid, I found some generic brake documentation related to toyota/lexus that I figured I'd post up. Might have already been circulated, but I found some of the docs interesting. Explains a bit more about the lspbv, etc. I was hoping I'd find some secret way to activate a "bleed mode" on the abs controller without some fancy tool. *sigh*

http://www.autoshop101.com/autoshop15.html (Scroll all the way down)

Toyota Series - Brakes
Brake01 Fundamental Principles.pdf 194KB
Brake02 Master Cylinder.pdf 420KB
Brake03 Drum Brakes.pdf 337KB
Brake04 Disc Brakes.pdf 268KB
Brake05 Brake Booster.pdf 608KB
Brake06 Parking Brake.pdf 224KB
Brake07 Brake Diagnosis.pdf 319KB
Brake08 Hydraulic Control.pdf 553KB
Brake09 Anti-Lock Brakes.pdf 834KB
Brake10 ABS Diagnosis.pdf 327KB
Brake11 Other ABS Actuators.pdf 1041KB
Brake12 Traction Control System (TRAC).pdf 1357KB
Brake13 Appendix.pdf 193KB

RedCreeper
06-28-2010, 10:38 AM
Man I feel for ya. I been messin with my brakes also and cant get them to be any more firm. I did manage to get this Japanese Brake System to do for now. haha Good luck.

RedCreeper
06-28-2010, 10:39 AM
oh and no leaks yet....

Old40Dog
06-28-2010, 06:19 PM
Man I feel for ya. I been messin with my brakes also and cant get them to be any more firm. I did manage to get this Japanese Brake System to do for now. haha Good luck.

Hey Kenny! That was German (Kaiser) engineering not Japanese! Do you know the name of the company that built those Jeeps in the 60's and 70's?

Dave K.

RedCreeper
06-28-2010, 07:24 PM
Hey Kenny! That was German (Kaiser) engineering not Japanese! Do you know the name of the company that built those Jeeps in the 60's and 70's?

Dave K.

Dave,

Seeing that this is a MIX of all things i just suspect it is Japanese engineering to make the lock grips lock. And to make it worse those grips were prob made in china so guess that makes it a acient chinese secret now.....


:cheers:

Old40Dog
06-28-2010, 07:57 PM
Dave,

Seeing that this is a MIX of all things i just suspect it is Japanese engineering to make the lock grips lock. And to make it worse those grips were prob made in china so guess that makes it a acient chinese secret now.....


:cheers:

Ahh...yes grasshopper! :bowdown:

coax
07-03-2010, 05:34 PM
The frustration continues. I started buying brake fluid by the gallon, and put about that much more through the system. I think at this point I'm up to probably 3+ gallons total.

I've tried as many different methods as I can think of or read about. (Assistant w/ 3 pushes on pedal, motive only, both combined, etc.) I've bled the MC in place with the motive by cracking both front and back lines and running fluid through it.

Still can't get pedal. Super mushy, and pressure doesn't build after multiple times pressing the pedal.

To compound matters, now the bleed valves on 3/4 calipers don't seem to seat right and a tiny bit of fluid has started leaking out of them. I'm wondering if the cheap napa calipers/valves have something to do with it, or if I buggered something up. :mad:

So, at this point I have somewhat resigned myself to the fact that my original 600 dollar brake job will probably double (or even more if the napa calipers are bad. Guess I learned the lesson not to give the cores back until the part is working. Also tempting to order some Toyota calipers, but oh so pricey.)

My question is, am I now limited to a dealer with the fancy abs tool and the ability to push fluid through at much higher pressures than the motive? I'll have to trailer it somewhere (not cheap) so I have to work my destination out ahead of time.

corsair23
07-03-2010, 10:40 PM
Corey,

Sorry to hear that you are still having problems...Totally sucks

At this point I say it might be a good time to call Robbie (http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showthread.php?t=10843) and see if he has some time to come up for a visit...I would think that not only would this be a less expensive route than trailering the LX to a dealer but that he can figure out exactly what the problem is, and what the proper remedy is as well :thumb:

Hey, if you have AAA+ you could have the LX towed to his place for free :)

coax
07-14-2010, 03:57 PM
Closing out the thread. Robbie was able to pencil me in on his schedule and come check out the brakes yesterday. Long story short is that I was probably being overly cautious (being a noob) but better cautious I say than taking the dirt nap. The speculation was that maybe some of the pistons/lines/etc in the old system were not moving/flowing free, and that's what made the old brakes feel a bit more firm than how they do now. The old fluid was pretty nasty so not surprised if there was some partly sticking pistons.

During the bleeding prior to yesterday (which I was apparently doing correct) I found that the best way to get air out was to put the motive on with 15psi or so, and then leaving the bleed screw open, stomp down on the brake pedal, and then let up slowly. Seemed like that "burst" of pressure and fluid was able to move along more air than just the motive alone.

Test drive was successful :clap: so with any luck should be good to go for a while now.

Anyway, my :twocents: Thanks all for the advice along the way, and thanks Robbie! :beer:

rover67
07-14-2010, 04:25 PM
Phew, glad you got it!!

remember not to overtighten the bleed screws, overtightening them will damage them and won't allow them to seal. I tend to overtighten stuff so it has happened to me before....