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RicardoJM
06-08-2010, 11:15 PM
How long should it take for oil to make its way from the pan up to the top of the engine? The new engine is in and we filled it with coolant. We poured some oil over the top of the rocker assembly and then re-installed the valve cover and filled it up.

Prior to firing the new engine up, I want to be sure the distributor and oil pump are doing their thing to get oil through the engine. To that end, we disconnected the fuel line at the filter and center wire from the coil to the distributor. We then cranked the engine over using the starter - the intent being to confirm we had oil pressure. We cranked for a few cycles of about 15 seconds each and did not see any reading on the stock oil pressure gauge. Next we removed the valve cover and did another couple of crank cycles, and we are not seeing any oil coming out the holes on the top.

It has been a fair amount of work to get this far and I am not ready to fire this engine up only to have it get blown because of no oil. If there is an issue, it is likely with the distributor or oil pump.

The distributor is a very tight fit when being stabbed in place. I really have to put some muscle into getting it seated. I've tried a couple of distributors and the results are the same. On my old engine, it was a snug but not tight fit. The oil pump looked ok when I dropped the oil pan to put in a new gasket - of course I wouldn't know what a bad oil pump would look like. :D

I know that using the starter to crank the engine will make the distributor go around and drive the oil pump. If all is well, there will be change in the oil pressure gauge and oil visible at the top of the engine. As this operation is new to me, I don't know how long it should crank for all of this to happen. Is it a 10 second thing or a 1 minute thing? I guess I'm wondering if it is possible that all is ok and I just didn't give the starter cranking enough time to do its thing. I could use some input from those with first hand experience.

Aside from making sure the oil is getting where it needs to be, the only other gotcha I have is my clutch adjustment. On the first check, at rest the TO bearing is about 1/4" to 1/2" away from the pressure plate and at full pedal (pressed to the floor) the TO bearing is just making contact with pressure plate. As I am using the diaphragm style clutch I swapped out push rods and this may be contributing to my adjustment issue.

Uncle Ben
06-08-2010, 11:20 PM
You probably just didn't spin it over long enough. Pull the distrib and using a drill and a long home made drive rod flow some oil through that beast.

rover67
06-08-2010, 11:40 PM
like UB says, get a length of something like 3/8 rod from the HW store, grind some flats on it so it fits the oil pump drive like the distributor does, chuck it up to your drill and spin it till it flows out the head.

It can take a while to get oil flowing to the rocker assembly. When it does it ain't gonna be a lot.

Anyways, do the drill trick.. no reason not to. I have always hated cranking motors with no oil pressure after rebuilds, these motors are easy to prime.

did you pack the oil pump with grease or vasoline? I did that one time because somebody reccomended it and it only clogged everything and made it super hard to prime. Never again. people might read that and think it was stupid.

edit: the distributor prolly fits tight because of the new o-ring.

treerootCO
06-08-2010, 11:50 PM
If you don't get oil to the top, with the drill priming, make sure the head gasket isn't on backwards. Installed the incorrect way, it will block that oil passage.

RicardoJM
06-09-2010, 11:18 PM
Thanks for the insight and I know a bit more after this evenings session and can still use some input - regarding stabbing the distributor.

First and update on the diagnosing. The first thing we did was check continuity on the oil pressure sender circuit; power to sender wire fitting and ground to oil pressure sender. Last fall I had the sender (temperature) wire fitting get brittle resulting in the temperature gauge not working - so I wanted to rule out that our no reading on the oil pressure gauge being due to a wiring issue in the circuit.:thumb:

Next we cranked the engine for 30 seconds. There was no reading on the oil pressure sender. :(

Next we removed the distributor and spun the oil pump with a blade in a drill. The oil pressure sender registered pressure:D. It didn't take long (maybe 5 seconds) for the oil pressure sender to start registering the pressure:thumb:. On the F.5 (and 2F) engines, it is my understanding that oil to the top passes through holes on the cam and that at TDC the holes are not open to the top - so we didn't spin the pump with the expectation of seeing oil come out the rockers. I am confident in the oil pump being ok.

So, we have confirmed the oil pressure sender gauge and oil pump are working. Our issue is with the stabbing of the distributor. Prior to removing it tonight, I had it fully seated to the block (I'm very sure about this) but it was not engaging and spinning the oil pump (I'm very sure about this as well) - I know this inconsistent. :confused:

When I removed the dizzy from the new engine this evening, it was a real bear to remove, I had to use some gentle persuasion from below to get it out. It was also a bear to put in when I stabbed it a few days ago. When adjusting the valves, I also confirmed the rotor was moving around in a circle as I rotated the engine.

I have 3 dizzys and two engines in the garage, so I did some experimenting and all three dizzys are pretty easy to stab into the old engine and all three dizzys are very difficult to get stabbed into the new engine. TheBoomBoom gave it a go and experienced the same thing.

As the dizzy goes in, it becomes very tight/hard when the gear on the dizzy shaft meshes with the gear on the cam shaft. It is like the gears are not aligned or the ridges in one are too thick. From this point continuing to push the dizzy down requires HE-MAN FORCE. We tried turning the engine at the flywheel while stabbing to see of some movement (maybe 10 degrees) of the camshaft would align things better and did not see any improvement. I have minimal dizzy stabbing experience, so it may be that sometimes HE-MAN FORCE is required - but it does not feel right.

While this engine is new to the truck, it is not an engine that I rebuilt. I've basically replaced gaskets and seals and added accessories that were not with the engine when i got it. I did not do any work to the timing gears, camshaft, crankshaft, pistons, etc. I'm not saying there is not an issue with any of these items, just letting you know that I didn't work on any of these items.

Before pulling the dizzy tonight we set the engine at 7 BDTC of the compression stroke of cylinder one. So, what next? Should I drop the oil pan so that I can stab the dizzy and visually confirm it is fully seating into the oil pump? Who is the Rising Sun dizzy stabbing champion/expert, perhaps I can get them to lend me a hand.

treerootCO
06-09-2010, 11:52 PM
The rotor has to turn when you set the dizzy. If you want the rotor to be at a 12:00 position, you have to start with it a little 11:00. I might have that backwards but you can feel it. The body of the dizzy has no effect on it. Before you stab it, you need to align the oil pump to where the rotor will end up(where the screwdriver looking part will end up).

RicardoJM
06-10-2010, 12:06 AM
The rotor has to turn when you set the dizzy. If you want the rotor to be at a 12:00 position, you have to start with it a little 11:00. I might have that backwards but you can feel it.

Yeah, I understand about the rotation that occurs as the gears mesh. It should be fresh in my mind, but IIRC if the ending alignment is 12:00, the dizzy should start out pointed to 1:00. The distributor shaft rotates CCW as the gears mesh.

I understand what you are saying about feeling it. When stabbing a dizzy into the old motor I can feel when the distributor shaft gear starts to mesh with the camshaft gear and watch to rotor rotate as the gears mesh. There is a distinct "popping into to place" that occurs when end of the distributor shaft enters the oil pump.

Thing is when stabbing a dizzy into the new motor, the feel is not there - as soon as the gears start to mesh because it is very stiff/hard to continue to push the distributor down.

Rzeppa
06-10-2010, 10:20 AM
http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/attachment.php?attachmentid=2093&stc=1&d=1152843088

Air Randy
06-10-2010, 11:32 AM
Ricardo,

You aren't doing anything wrong with your stabbing procedure, but you need to figure out what is wrong with the cam gear or oil pump shaft. The resistance you're feeling is either because the distributor shaft is not fitting into the oil pump shaft correctly or there is a problem with the cam gears.

To my knowledge there is no difference in cam gears from year to year so the only possible issue I can think of there is the cam is incorrectly spaced so the gears aren't correctly aligned with the hole the distributor drops in to. If it was too far one direction the dist would drop in freely and the gears would not engage correctly, but you would seat into the oil pump. That would probably result in the dist not turning though. If it is shimmed too far the other direction it would wedge the dist gears tightly and possibly prevent the dist from dropping in deep enough to engage the oil pump shaft. Of the two, that sounds like the more likely scenario.

The other possibility is the oil pump shaft has got a burr on it or is somehow deformed and not letting the dist shaft drop in to it. Look down there with a flashlight and see if there is a deformation or maybe even a piece of hard crap fell into the end of the shaft.

You may need to drop the oil pan and pull the pump out to see how it mates up with the end of the dist. If that isn't the issue, use a large flat blade screw driver and see if there is any side to side wiggle in the cam shaft.

RicardoJM
06-10-2010, 01:12 PM
...you need to figure out what is wrong with the cam gear or oil pump shaft. The resistance you're feeling is either because the distributor shaft is not fitting into the oil pump shaft correctly or there is a problem with the cam gears. ...
You've expressed the issue very clearly because I don't think it should take this much force to get the distributor in.

... issue I can think of there is the cam is incorrectly spaced so the gears aren't correctly aligned with the hole the distributor drops in to. If it was too far one direction the dist would drop in freely and the gears would not engage correctly, but you would seat into the oil pump. That would probably result in the dist not turning though. If it is shimmed too far the other direction it would wedge the dist gears tightly and possibly prevent the dist from dropping in deep enough to engage the oil pump shaft. Of the two, that sounds like the more likely scenario.
When I did have the distributor in it was rotating as I spun the engine and the oil pump was not spinning. The tightness begins just as the gears start to mesh.

The other possibility is the oil pump shaft has got a burr on it or is somehow deformed and not letting the dist shaft drop in to it. Look down there with a flashlight and see if there is a deformation or maybe even a piece of hard crap fell into the end of the shaft.
Both Rick and I have looked and we are not seeing any deformity or blockage. We both used a pick and screwdriver while inspecting and there isn't anything obvious. I started disassembling my points distributor so that I could try fitting the shaft. While I got it torn down quite a ways, I could not drive out the pin. Does anyone have a dizzy shaft that I could borrow to confirm the fit to the oil pump? If the shaft fits, then I would know that I have to look more into the camshaft alignment.

You may need to drop the oil pan and pull the pump out to see how it mates up with the end of the dist. I was hoping to avoid having to do this, but if it is needed then it will have to be done.

If that isn't the issue, use a large flat blade screw driver and see if there is any side to side wiggle in the cam shaft.
I gave this a half hearted attempt and there was no movement. I'll give it another go this evening to see if there is any movement.

RicardoJM
06-10-2010, 01:15 PM
Maybe I'm jumping too far ahead, but if it does turn out that the camshaft alignment needs adjusting - will the engine need to be pulled out?

TIMZTOY
06-10-2010, 02:36 PM
Pulling it out is problly the easiest way. But no. You should have enough room if you remove the radiatior and grill to slide the cam forward you'll also have to remove the timing set to get access. (don't really know 2f's but I assume it's a pushrods motor) Seeing he's having cam-dist alignment issues. I'd put money it's not shimmer right and it's about 1/16"-1/8" to far twords the dist blocking the dist from droping correctlly

Air Randy
06-10-2010, 03:09 PM
I'm not sure how you check to see if it is shimmed correctly but I'm pretty sure the cam gear is pressed onto the end of the camshaft. Then there is a retainer plate behind the cam gear where the bolts go that actually hold the cam shaft in. I think the shim that determines end play is behind that plate. Thinking of that arrangement it could only be the shim is missing or wrong size or the retainer plate bolts could be loose letting it slide too far forward.

The cam may not wiggle easy while it's installed due to the pressure from the lifters and valve springs.

60wag
06-10-2010, 03:32 PM
If the dizzy spins when the engine is cranked, the gears must be connecting and the cam shaft is likely fine. I'd measure the distance from the dizzy seating surface on the block to the oil pump. Then compare it to the length of the dizzy shaft. If the dizzy is seated on the block, are you sure it is long enough to fully engage the slot in the oil pump? I don't know if there are different length dizzys out there but its worth checking. Is it possible to shove the oil pump down (bend the mount) by forcing the dizzy in when misaligned?


edit: This is a Toyota dizzy right? not a GM DUI thing right?

RicardoJM
06-10-2010, 04:28 PM
If the dizzy spins when the engine is cranked, the gears must be connecting and the cam shaft is likely fine. I'd measure the distance from the dizzy seating surface on the block to the oil pump. Then compare it to the length of the dizzy shaft. If the dizzy is seated on the block, are you sure it is long enough to fully engage the slot in the oil pump? I don't know if there are different length dizzys out there but its worth checking. Is it possible to shove the oil pump down (bend the mount) by forcing the dizzy in when misaligned?


edit: This is a Toyota dizzy right? not a GM DUI thing right?

Yes Bruce, all three distributors that I have are Toyota. One is a vacuum retard points, one is a 60 Seriers big cap and the third is a 78/79 small cap.

Air Randy
06-10-2010, 10:10 PM
If the dizzy spins when the engine is cranked, the gears must be connecting and the cam shaft is likely fine. I'd measure the distance from the dizzy seating surface on the block to the oil pump. Then compare it to the length of the dizzy shaft. If the dizzy is seated on the block, are you sure it is long enough to fully engage the slot in the oil pump? I don't know if there are different length dizzys out there but its worth checking. Is it possible to shove the oil pump down (bend the mount) by forcing the dizzy in when misaligned?

If the dist was smoothly dropping in like they usually do then I would agree with you. But since he says it gets tight and he has to force it down then something else is going on to cause a bind before the dist is fully seated. The gears could be engaging enough to make the dist spin but binding enough that the dist is not dropping down far enough to engage the oil pump slot.

RicardoJM
06-10-2010, 10:42 PM
Ok guys, I think we can put this thread to bed as I have oil pressure with a dizzy stabbed in:D.

I went through the checks suggested in the thread;

Depth from the block to the oil pump compared to the dizzy shafts. The shafts are long enough. The depth on both engines are within 1/8" of each other - interestingly the new engine is less depth than the old engine.

I checked the camshaft gear for any movement/slippage and there is none. For this I found a drum brake adjusting tool to work very well as the angle made it easier to get leverage for a good test.

I then practiced stabbing the dizzy on the old engine a few times, to get a better feel for where the slot needs to be how far to the right to start the stab, what it feels like when it is wrong, what it feels like when it is right.

I then gave it a go with the new engine. Low a behold, it was snug but not HE-MAN tight and stabbed in all the way. Unfortunately the base locking plate of the dizzy (60 series big cap) was not oriented correctly, i.e. it was too close to the block to allow for advancing the timing. So I pulled it out and proceeded to try and get it all in perfect - when I thought I was there I call Rick out and we cranked it over. Sadly there was no oil pressure and we lost our flywheel position as I did not take the time to rotate the engine to TDC when the rotor was pointing to plug 1.

At this point I was ready to call it a night but decided to give it another try. Yeah, I know that even if I got it done the chance of it being in the right position on the flywheel is pretty slim - but I just had to know tonight if the dizzy would turn the oil pump or was I going to spend tomorrow evening dropping the oil pan.

Well, I know the dizzy turns the oil pump. I got it stabbed in and can see oil pressure on the gauge when spinning the motor with the starter. So tomorrow, I'll pull the dizzy get everything lined up a 7 BTDC on the compression stroke and see if I can get it all the way in, with the appropriate placement of the dizzy base locking plate. Once I have achieved this, it should be started up and running within a few minutes; just need to reconnect the fuel line and hook up the ignition wires. :D

Thanks for your posts and the thought process the helped me make my way through. :bowdown:

FJBRADY
06-11-2010, 08:59 AM
Great job, Ricardo! Fathers day run would be a great shakedown......just sayin that's all!

Rzeppa
06-11-2010, 10:10 AM
A couple things here:

Cams in F series are not set with shims. There is a plate (retainer) that goes on the front of the cam under the timing gear that bolts to the front of the block front plate, that keeps the cam from thrusting forward. The timing gear is pressed on the end of the cam and keeps the cam from thrusting rearward. How far you press the gear on determines the thrust clearance, which you measure with a feeler gauge. Then a circlip goes on the end of the cam just for belts-and-suspenders. In other words, it is just about impossible for the cam distributor gear to be in the wrong spot forward or backward.

Ricardo - you have to take a long screwdriver and turn the oil pump so the slot is in exactly the right spot before you stab the distributor. This needs to be CCW from where you want the rotor to end up because of the (by now familiar to you) twisting motion of the distributor shaft as it engages with the teeth on the cam.

Note the proper TDC orientation of the rotor in this image:

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/attachment.php?attachmentid=2101&stc=1&d=1152920046

You want it to be pointing at that bolt on the side cover when it is stabbed properly. You can be a tooth either way but this orientation will give optimal clearance to the distributor body and diaphragm for setting the static timing.