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View Full Version : Been doing some thinking these days...


bh4rnnr
08-17-2010, 11:13 PM
As to where to go regarding my vehicle situation.

I love Skelator, but at what point does it make sence to start new? IT's getting harder for me to justify spending 4k just to make the suspension right, only to later stress about the motor (that has 280K) and other parts of the truck.

I talked to Cruiser Outfitters about the double cab Tacoma that might be for sale, 28k is just not doable for me. So I fall Back on the first gen minis and 4runners. Do I save my money and find that grandmad mini and build it? I guess i'm lost as to what to do.

One thing is for sure, if i'm still wheeles next summer, i'm not staying stuck to the city!

:beer::beer:

P.S, no 80's for this guy;)

:beer::beer:

Hulk
08-18-2010, 12:46 AM
Perry,

What about a 3rd gen 4Runner? They are solid and getting really reasonable in price. A 5-second search on Craigslist found this:

1997 4Runner Limited 4WD - $5000 (DU area)
http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/1904727458.html

Think about how nice Yoder's vehicle is -- and it wheels really great. Plus, the bonus is that if you picked up a date in this, she'll think it's a slick ride and not a beater.

MountainGoat
08-18-2010, 08:20 AM
Something I don't see mentioned much is the difference, MARKED difference in wheelability of progressive generations of 4Runners and mini trucks. I had an 86 4Runner (1st year of IFS) which would lift a front tire if you leaned against. I got so frustrated trying to wheel it that I gave it to my then step daughter and went out and bought a solid axle mini truck.

However, later I got a 94 mini truck (2nd iteration of IFS). While not as good as my solid axle, it was light years ahead of the 86 in terms of front end travel and off road capability. I was really impressed with the improvement.

More recently we got my wife a 2000 4Runner (yet again the next iteration of IFS beyond the 94 truck). This is the 3rd gen Matt references above. Holy crap, this truck is amazing. The rear coils help a LOT, since it makes it much harder to lose traction on both a front and a rear tire at the same time with that much travel out back. I shopped until I found one with a rear e-locker. We put 235 85 16s on it (skinny 32" tires) with no lift and I can't get them to rub at all.

I guess my point is that you shouldn't get too hung up on having to have a first gen. You can get second and third gens uber cheap if you look around. I just bought a 94 4x4 manual 22RE truck off my neighbor with 131K on it for $800. It had a dented fender and door, but I got a color matched fender from Yoda Jim's yard for $60! Blue book on it is around $3k, so I got a screaming deal on this truck. But even at $3k these are nice, comfortable, capable and buildable trucks for cheap.

That's all I have to say about that. :hill:

Red_Chili
08-18-2010, 08:33 AM
Perry, if you are replacing Skelator and still thinking 1st gen ... don't bother, same same different problems. If you are thinking hard core no longer, Hulk's suggestion is a good one. HOWEVER, you Baja that thing and the fix won't be as simple as Skelator's last year. Carrying a spare rack, knuckle and upper A-arm is inconvenient.

+1 on preventing all the predictable 80 suggestions. You might consider an early double cab with your rooftop tent.

Uncle Ben
08-18-2010, 08:38 AM
Perfect solution...

http://image.automotive.com/f/tech/9399627+pheader/0712or_01_z+1999_ford_ranger_4x4_project+in_the_air.jpg

Red_Chili
08-18-2010, 08:45 AM
Something I don't see mentioned much is the difference, MARKED difference in wheelability of progressive generations of 4Runners and mini trucks. I had an 86 4Runner (1st year of IFS) which would lift a front tire if you leaned against. I got so frustrated trying to wheel it that I gave it to my then step daughter and went out and bought a solid axle mini truck.

However, later I got a 94 mini truck (2nd iteration of IFS). While not as good as my solid axle, it was light years ahead of the 86 in terms of front end travel and off road capability…

Interesting … I have owned all of the above. There is no essential design difference between an 86 IFS and 90-something IFS. There may be differences in torsion bars and weight and whether the sway bar was disconnected (highly recommended ). The generation of 4Runner pictured is surprisingly capable but the IFS is a tad more fragile. Know that, and drive sane, and you will be fine. The coils work great but the control arms limit mods beyond a certain point but 80 coils are an option if you don't mind a raked look.

MDH33
08-18-2010, 08:53 AM
I think you have the right idea, Perry. Finding another rig that needs less and has lower miles would be a better use of funds. I've actually been looking for another first gen mini truck or 4runner to use as a daily driver and I've been finding a lot of great deals on Craigslist. I haven't had the fund$ to jump on any deals yet, which makes me crazy because there are some good ones available right now for decent prices that I'm missing out on.

Check these out:

http://cosprings.craigslist.org/cto/1846385074.html

http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/1882409435.html

http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/1900357926.html

http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/1903140424.html

http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/1901399667.html

http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/1895345552.html

http://rockies.craigslist.org/cto/1886306554.html

:beer::beer:

MountainGoat
08-18-2010, 09:02 AM
I haven't had the fund$ to jump on any deals yet, which makes me crazy because there are some good ones available right now for decent prices that I'm missing out on.

Check these out: ...


Dang, there are some nice trucks there. :eek:

DaveInDenver
08-18-2010, 09:35 AM
I had an 86 4Runner (1st year of IFS) which would lift a front tire if you leaned against.

However, later I got a 94 mini truck (2nd iteration of IFS).
The Hi-Trac IFS on 4Runner and Pickup from 1986 through 1995 are all identical and other than the frame width the outside parts on the T-100 are the same (the CV axles are the sole difference and the T-100 used rack-n-pinion steering instead of the recirculating ball and cross-over relay rod like Hiluxes). I have a right spindle and lower control arm from a 1987 4Runner, both CV axles and upper control arms from a 1988 truck and the rest is the original 1991. There might be differences in torsion bars, although AFAIK they are all 22.5mm from Toyota and should be similar spring rates. Might be you saw a difference due to weight of the truck or something else, but the parts are all the same.

DaveInDenver
08-18-2010, 10:01 AM
So I fall Back on the first gen minis and 4runners. Do I save my money and find that grandmad mini and build it? I guess i'm lost as to what to do.
I plan on driving my truck until the wheels fall off (well, sorta to the point that Skeletor is for you I suppose). Cars are sinking investments and so you weigh the amount of money you are spending against using the money for something else. When you hit the point where you are spending more money on the truck than it is returning in actual or perceived utility, then you stop.

But if you want to flog your truck, then you have to be willing to spend money on it regardless if it's your 4Runner or something else. Just because it's newer doesn't mean driving it hard is going to break it less. The advantage to keeping what you have is that you've already spent a lot of money and time to buy it and get it to this point. That money and time will have to be re-spent.

Personally, in your position, I would find another IFS mini truck or 4Runner that hasn't been beaten silly and move as many parts over as you want to keep, part out and scrap the rest. Cars are just tools, a means to an end. Your truck is a lot like mine, a way to get someplace and if it's not doing the job anymore there is nothing wrong with moving on. If I had the money I might think of an SAS on Skeletor, but the truck in other ways doesn't meet your criteria. You've mentioned other times wanting more interior space, more enclosed space, etc. So it all depends on how much you want to spend on achieving your goals. Our IFS trucks might not be ideal for crawling, but they work just fine to get us places, so it's a lot of effort and money for something that might be a good fit to the application when considering our finite income. If I won the lottery I would SAS Imelda in a heartbeat, but in the real world it's less important than other uses of my savings.

Jacket
08-18-2010, 10:27 AM
What exactly does that $4k that you need to spend entail? Is that to just get the IFS back in shape (doesn't seem like it would cost $4k to weld a control arm back on)? Or are you looking at other upgrades? Some of that cost might be redundant whether you are fixing your truck, or buying a new one.

So give us an idea of what that cost covers to help you make a decision. And you need to make a decision that you can bite off, because not having a truck next spring is not an option. :scold:

Air Randy
08-18-2010, 12:08 PM
If you want a super built mini truck that has a brand new motor in it, the gecko is for sale :D

bh4rnnr
08-18-2010, 01:08 PM
Perry,

What about a 3rd gen 4Runner? They are solid and getting really reasonable in price. A 5-second search on Craigslist found this:

1997 4Runner Limited 4WD - $5000 (DU area)
http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/1904727458.html

Think about how nice Yoder's vehicle is -- and it wheels really great. Plus, the bonus is that if you picked up a date in this, she'll think it's a slick ride and not a beater.

Matt, that's a good thought, and a great price.

I plan on driving my truck until the wheels fall off (well, sorta to the point that Skeletor is for you I suppose). Cars are sinking investments and so you weigh the amount of money you are spending against using the money for something else. When you hit the point where you are spending more money on the truck than it is returning in actual or perceived utility, then you stop.

But if you want to flog your truck, then you have to be willing to spend money on it regardless if it's your 4Runner or something else. Just because it's newer doesn't mean driving it hard is going to break it less. The advantage to keeping what you have is that you've already spent a lot of money and time to buy it and get it to this point. That money and time will have to be re-spent.

Personally, in your position, I would find another IFS mini truck or 4Runner that hasn't been beaten silly and move as many parts over as you want to keep, part out and scrap the rest. Cars are just tools, a means to an end. Your truck is a lot like mine, a way to get someplace and if it's not doing the job anymore there is nothing wrong with moving on. If I had the money I might think of an SAS on Skeletor, but the truck in other ways doesn't meet your criteria. You've mentioned other times wanting more interior space, more enclosed space, etc. So it all depends on how much you want to spend on achieving your goals. Our IFS trucks might not be ideal for crawling, but they work just fine to get us places, so it's a lot of effort and money for something that might be a good fit to the application when considering our finite income. If I won the lottery I would SAS Imelda in a heartbeat, but in the real world it's less important than other uses of my savings.

Dave, i understand with what we do to our trucks, things are going to break, just would be nice to have something a little more new (less miles).

What exactly does that $4k that you need to spend entail? Is that to just get the IFS back in shape (doesn't seem like it would cost $4k to weld a control arm back on)? Or are you looking at other upgrades? Some of that cost might be redundant whether you are fixing your truck, or buying a new one.

So give us an idea of what that cost covers to help you make a decision. And you need to make a decision that you can bite off, because not having a truck next spring is not an option. :scold:

Matt, The 4k will be fixing the truck and upgrading it. SAS, ARB's front and rear and some other stuff...

If you want a super built mini truck that has a brand new motor in it, the gecko is for sale :D

Randy, how is the Gecko for street driving and long distance? Can it handle long exursions with steady fast paced driving?

Thanks for the thoughts so far guys:thumb:.

Martin, i'll look at those links tonight:cheers:.

:beer::beer:

Air Randy
08-18-2010, 02:35 PM
Everything on it from the engine, clutch, T-cases, driveshafts, U joints, diffs, axles and brakes are new. It is a little slow going up I-70 because of the 39" tires. Since it has 5.29 gears in it, if you put 35's on it that would give it a lot more pep uphill but with the 5 speed you would still be able to cruise.

bh4rnnr
08-18-2010, 09:06 PM
Perfect solution...

http://image.automotive.com/f/tech/9399627+pheader/0712or_01_z+1999_ford_ranger_4x4_project+in_the_air.jpg



:drool:

MDH33
08-18-2010, 09:58 PM
Pick this up and you're turn-key ready for the Outlaws Run once you strap on your RTT ;)

http://cosprings.craigslist.org/cto/1846385074.html

http://images.craigslist.org/3k83p03o95V15Y15Q4a7g89614160a8521460.jpg

Romer
08-18-2010, 10:20 PM
Rachel is really happy with her 3rd gen 4runner. She has had it for 6 years now with no major issues.

The only real problem with it is changing the oil filter is a PIA.

Look for a 3.4VL witha rear locker. We later put an arb in the front.

You would probably want to keep the tires at 33's unless you wanted to dump a ton of money. She wheels it quite a bit and its great on the highway

MDH33
08-19-2010, 09:12 AM
This one already has the SAS, lift, bumpers done:

http://fortcollins.craigslist.org/cto/1904813064.html

http://images.craigslist.org/3m03oa3lc5Y45T45Q2a8h88cafbb18c691151.jpg

http://images.craigslist.org/3n33me3o95V65O45X0a8hbd10c20f26991d98.jpg

:beer:

Caribou Sandstorm
08-19-2010, 10:43 AM
Perry there is also a used Toyota pick up truck lot on Broadway in Denver. they have all years, some sort of built and some bone stock at wacko low prices..

I would love to go over there and look at trucks with you, that sounds totally fun...shopping with someone else's money...:D

btw, I am with Matt, maybe it makes since to find a rig that is less hardcore and a bit nice looking? You are already an IFs man, don't leave us..our numbers are down, as it is:lmao:

AxleIke
08-19-2010, 11:38 AM
Perry, I feel you there man. I personally have been doing a lot of thinking about a similar step, though I am seriously considering an early 2000's 2wd tacoma extended cab. However, they are still sorta pricey these days, though the mileage is usually pretty good.

If I were you, I would really look at the third generation 4runners and first gen tacoma's if you plan to stay IFS. The second generation IFS is far superior to the early garbage you and I have.

MDH33
08-19-2010, 04:29 PM
This one is pretty cool too, Perry. That commercial topper would hold your RTT perfectly. It has bumpers, 4.88's, locked front and rear, onboard air and an aux fuel tank for long distance.

http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/1908092358.html

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt87/cdwillia89/DSC00030.jpg
http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt87/cdwillia89/DSC00032.jpg
http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt87/cdwillia89/DSC00037.jpg

:beer:

nakman
08-19-2010, 06:12 PM
This one is pretty cool too, Perry. That commercial topper would hold your RTT perfectly. It has bumpers, 4.88's, locked front and rear, onboard air and an aux fuel tank for long distance.

http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/1908092358.html





:beer:

That has been on CL for EVER... I don't know if it's price or demand, but it's been off and on CL for the better part of a year. that that into consideration, should you make that guy an offer. ;)

MDH33
08-19-2010, 09:12 PM
That has been on CL for EVER... I don't know if it's price or demand, but it's been off and on CL for the better part of a year. that that into consideration, should you make that guy an offer. ;)

Yeah, I remember seeing it listed once about a year ago, but it hasn't been listed non-stop like a lot of rigs. (I DO look at CL every day afterall. ;) )

AxleIke
08-19-2010, 09:33 PM
Whoo, some good trucks in here. Nicely done folks! Perry, I really think you can't go wrong with a 00-04 taco, or a 99-02 4runner.

bh4rnnr
08-19-2010, 09:48 PM
Whoo, some good trucks in here. Nicely done folks! Perry, I really think you can't go wrong with a 00-04 taco, or a 99-02 4runner.

Isaac, that's what I thought.....

Kurt is asking around 28K for his Taco... Well built, just cant afford it....

Kurt is steering me away from double cabs.

Randy, you around sunday evening? Will be back from the cabin then, unless you want to stop by;)

MDH33
08-19-2010, 09:51 PM
Isaac, that's what I thought.....

Kurt is asking around 28K for his Taco... Well built, just cant afford it....

Kurt is steering me away from double cabs.

Randy, you around sunday evening? Will be back from the cabin then, unless you want to stop by;)

What's wrong with double cabs (other than being pricey)?

Anyway, you're a single dude, so no need for room to strap in a baby seat. ;)

bh4rnnr
08-19-2010, 10:14 PM
What's wrong with double cabs (other than being pricey)?

Anyway, you're a single dude, so no need for room to strap in a baby seat. ;)

Nothing, they just cost more then say extended cabs...

Yeah, seems though only good of being single is more stories for you:blah::cheers:


With that, seems though i've impressed a bartender at the Paramount;

This be the joke she told me (among others): What bee's produce milk?

:beer::beer:

nakman
08-19-2010, 10:56 PM
What bee's produce milk?

:beer::beer:


I give.. what? :confused:

Uncle Ben
08-19-2010, 10:58 PM
This be the joke she told me (among others): What bee's produce milk?

:beer::beer:

Boo...

bh4rnnr
08-20-2010, 08:47 AM
Boo...

Think UB is on the right track...

RedCreeper
08-20-2010, 10:10 AM
I look around on ksl.com in the rockcrawler section. Yes it is Utah and Wyoming but there is a lot to offer up there and deals to be had. Here are a few i found. And the the 40, 60 and 80 guys there are a few that pop up also that look nice. The only thing i would watch out for is buying someone else problem. Something someone else put together is not always better. I am figuring that out now... Good luck Perry. Cant wait to see what you finally decide.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=12058367&cat=402&lpid=&search=

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=11682861&cat=402&lpid=2&search=

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=11987719&cat=402&lpid=&search=toyota

Air Randy
08-20-2010, 11:58 AM
Isaac, that's what I thought.....

Kurt is asking around 28K for his Taco... Well built, just cant afford it....

Kurt is steering me away from double cabs.

Randy, you around sunday evening? Will be back from the cabin then, unless you want to stop by;)

We should be around Sunday evening.

Also, I wasn't aware your frame cracked. Where did it crack? Are you sure we can't just box plate it and weld it? Thats pretty common with the older mini trucks.

wesintl
08-20-2010, 03:42 PM
Perry doesn't need a crawler. I've tried my best to stay out of this thread for a while. :o

IMHO you are an overlander. Sure a few trails in moab but nothing hard core.

If you want to fix your rig why not just SAS it and be done. There's no reason to arb it F&R for overland travel. IMHO mibs. If you going to keep it you can fix it for cheap, no reason to spend 4-5K on that clunker.

I think you would be best served by a 3rd gen with a rear locker and 2.5" lift. IMHO i think they wheel better than pickups and while pickups are functional I don't think they are as functional for overland travel (i'm sure I'll get dinged by some here but look at how many pickups vs 60's 80's and 100's are used this way) or best suited for wheeling.

I still think your crazy not to get an 80. You can find a lifted and locked one for nothing. You can rip out the rear seats and 3rd row to build a KILLER overlanding platform. The most sought after rigs for overlanding besides a troopy's are 80's then 60's. It's far better to keep track of your stuff in an enclosed vehicle than a pickup or even one with a topper.

5k asking for lifted and locked? you'd be silly not to really think about what suits your level of travel the best vs what your want. IMHO 80's are super reliable and easy to fix.
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/cto/1906329321.html

Air Randy
08-20-2010, 03:59 PM
[QUOTE=wesintl;159655]Perry doesn't need a crawler. QUOTE]

Could be, makes no difference to me, but Perry needs what Perry wants. I'd say let him evaluate all of his options then let him decide.

wesintl
08-20-2010, 04:42 PM
I am, I've got nothing to gain or lose other than to see him on the trail more often doing what he loves taking pictures. Maybe i'm being too honest to a point but being objective as I can after wheeling and camping with him for the last 7 years. He only has one vehicle. If he had a daily driver or lots of $ I can see having a crawler otherwise it's just not practical.

jacdaw
08-20-2010, 05:23 PM
Perry, you should buy my Hilux. Use it as a DD and build your rig the way you want.

Hulk
08-20-2010, 10:54 PM
I pretty much agree with Wes 100%. That's why I suggested the 3rd gen 4Runner. A nice big enclosed vehicle would be great for the kind of wheeling you do, Perry, and you don't need a solid axle for overland expeditions.

If I didn't have a kids, I already would have built a sleeping platform with a big thick foam mattress inside my 80.

Perry, if you want to get over your fear of Land Cruisers, I'll loan you my 80 for a weekend. :)

Jacket
08-21-2010, 09:47 AM
Here's the place to go to debunk the myth that Ex Cabs can't work as overland vehicles.

http://www.bajataco.com/bajataco.html

As long as you will never be more than 2 people, it's a great platform. Just accept the "challenge" of packing your stuff at 6' of depth - drawers are pretty critical.

JadeRunner
08-21-2010, 10:12 PM
Perry,
I can remember when you were riding along with me 5-6 years ago in Moab. You were already thinking you needed a new rig for a more dependable expedition type rig and that you like the 3rd gen Runners. You just need to figure out how to swing it financially. May take some time. But they sure have come down in price.

Get one with the locker. Put a 2.5" lift on it and 33's. Beat it up on trails if needed. Then work on armor for a while. That's what I did for 5 years or so. Tackled most all the trail too.

DaveInDenver
08-22-2010, 05:57 PM
...while pickups are functional I don't think they are as functional for overland travel
You wagon guys putting up with not being able to stand up inside your sleeping and storage quarters, now that's neanderthal. :-)

http://wildernest.armbrusterweb.com/page4/page13/files/page13_1.jpg http://wildernest.armbrusterweb.com/page4/page14/files/page14_6.jpg

http://www.armbrusterweb.com/tripsfolder/longtripsfolder/grancanyonfolder/files/page3_8.jpg http://www.armbrusterweb.com/tripsfolder/biketripsfolder/wrtsept07folder/wrt1pixfolder/files/page69_6.jpg

Romer
08-22-2010, 06:14 PM
You wagon guys putting up with not being able to stand up inside your sleeping and storage quarters, now that's neanderthal. :-)

http://wildernest.armbrusterweb.com/page4/page13/files/page13_1.jpg http://wildernest.armbrusterweb.com/page4/page14/files/page14_6.jpg

http://www.armbrusterweb.com/tripsfolder/longtripsfolder/grancanyonfolder/files/page3_8.jpg http://www.armbrusterweb.com/tripsfolder/biketripsfolder/wrtsept07folder/wrt1pixfolder/files/page69_6.jpg


Ahhh, but we can get there a lot faster than you can:D

DaveInDenver
08-22-2010, 06:23 PM
Ahhh, but we can get there a lot faster than you can:D
Man, you went right for the gut! :-)



20448 20450

Romer
08-22-2010, 06:42 PM
Man, you went right for the gut! :-)



20448 20450


Oh man, now a big semi is passing him

Inukshuk
08-22-2010, 06:55 PM
I pretty much agree with Wes 100%.

And I with both

Perry doesn't need a crawler.
IMHO you are an overlander.
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/cto/1906329321.html

He is an overlander.

And in the end he'll choose. But he did ask for suggestions.

Double or extra cab taco IMHO. He's just not an 80 guy (his opinion). Plus, fuel efficiency is a big deal overlanding and 80's = not so good.

DaveInDenver
08-22-2010, 06:58 PM
Oh man, now a big semi is passing him
In full disclosure, this particular pass was happening right before I pulled over for Wendover Will...

20452 20453 20467

Romer
08-22-2010, 08:08 PM
In full disclosure, this particular pass was happening right before I pulled over for Wendover Will...

20452 20453 20467

Ok, your right

We did put you in front so we wouldnt lose you though :)

Romer
08-22-2010, 08:15 PM
Back to the subject. I agree on Perry being an overlander. He should get something with maximum utility

The 3rd gen 4runner is a great compromise. Great offroading, you can get them with a rear locker and great on the highway. Good MPG at 18-24

They have a lot of power with the 3.4L

He can carry friends to dinner or gear to go camping. Rachel has put a RTT on top as well

She goes everywhere I go with 33's and does just fine

treerootCO
08-22-2010, 08:25 PM
How about a 4th gen Land Cruiser?;) All the 'mods' you seem to see on a minitruck come stock.

Romer
08-22-2010, 08:31 PM
Here are some shots of Rachels truck.

She has done most of the stuff in Moab thats not buggy rates, Chinamans, Blackhills, etc with no issues

DaveInDenver
08-22-2010, 08:32 PM
How about a 4th gen Land Cruiser?;) All the 'mods' you seem to see on a minitruck come stock.
Which one is a 4th gen?

bh4rnnr
08-22-2010, 09:07 PM
Perry doesn't need a crawler. I've tried my best to stay out of this thread for a while. :o

IMHO you are an overlander. Sure a few trails in moab but nothing hard core.

If you want to fix your rig why not just SAS it and be done. There's no reason to arb it F&R for overland travel. IMHO mibs. If you going to keep it you can fix it for cheap, no reason to spend 4-5K on that clunker.

I think you would be best served by a 3rd gen with a rear locker and 2.5" lift. IMHO i think they wheel better than pickups and while pickups are functional I don't think they are as functional for overland travel (i'm sure I'll get dinged by some here but look at how many pickups vs 60's 80's and 100's are used this way) or best suited for wheeling.

I still think your crazy not to get an 80. You can find a lifted and locked one for nothing. You can rip out the rear seats and 3rd row to build a KILLER overlanding platform. The most sought after rigs for overlanding besides a troopy's are 80's then 60's. It's far better to keep track of your stuff in an enclosed vehicle than a pickup or even one with a topper.

5k asking for lifted and locked? you'd be silly not to really think about what suits your level of travel the best vs what your want. IMHO 80's are super reliable and easy to fix.
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/cto/1906329321.html

Wes,

I was planning on all those upgrades because it's something i've always wanted to do to the truck. Just this past Cm on E-Hill I found myself wishing for lower gearing, and thus thinking about a second t-case.

You are right that i'm an overlander, but i've always wanted a truck that is ready for anything.....

Wes, you ver think about getting a job for Slee Off Road?:hill:

[QUOTE=wesintl;159655]Perry doesn't need a crawler. QUOTE]

Could be, makes no difference to me, but Perry needs what Perry wants. I'd say let him evaluate all of his options then let him decide.

Like your thinking Randy, and sorry, forgot to call you tonight. Will try during the week.

I am, I've got nothing to gain or lose other than to see him on the trail more often doing what he loves taking pictures. Maybe i'm being too honest to a point but being objective as I can after wheeling and camping with him for the last 7 years. He only has one vehicle. If he had a daily driver or lots of $ I can see having a crawler otherwise it's just not practical.

Thanks for your honesty Wes.

Financualy i'm at the bottom end of the spectrum. Yes all bills are getting paid, but i'll be lucky if I have some left over once the next two weeks comes. I've been working a lot of over time this summer only to be just getting by. Lately i've been thinking about the prospect of taking the next two years and really putting money away to get something nice built up. If that be the case, i'm not going to do what I did this year and not go on any runs with my friends.

I pretty much agree with Wes 100%. That's why I suggested the 3rd gen 4Runner. A nice big enclosed vehicle would be great for the kind of wheeling you do, Perry, and you don't need a solid axle for overland expeditions.

If I didn't have a kids, I already would have built a sleeping platform with a big thick foam mattress inside my 80.

Perry, if you want to get over your fear of Land Cruisers, I'll loan you my 80 for a weekend. :)

Matt,

I'm thinking I need to ride in some 3rd gen 4runners before an 80. I don't not like them, there just not for me.

Here's the place to go to debunk the myth that Ex Cabs can't work as overland vehicles.

http://www.bajataco.com/bajataco.html

As long as you will never be more than 2 people, it's a great platform. Just accept the "challenge" of packing your stuff at 6' of depth - drawers are pretty critical.

Chris is a good guy.

Don't think i'll ever be more than two people. Kids scare me and who knows if i'll ever land another relationship.

And i'm already used to packing with that space with the 4runner.

Perry,
I can remember when you were riding along with me 5-6 years ago in Moab. You were already thinking you needed a new rig for a more dependable expedition type rig and that you like the 3rd gen Runners. You just need to figure out how to swing it financially. May take some time. But they sure have come down in price.

Get one with the locker. Put a 2.5" lift on it and 33's. Beat it up on trails if needed. Then work on armor for a while. That's what I did for 5 years or so. Tackled most all the trail too.
\
Might have to ride along with you again Scott.

Back to the subject. I agree on Perry being an overlander. He should get something with maximum utility

The 3rd gen 4runner is a great compromise. Great offroading, you can get them with a rear locker and great on the highway. Good MPG at 18-24

They have a lot of power with the 3.4L

He can carry friends to dinner or gear to go camping. Rachel has put a RTT on top as well

She goes everywhere I go with 33's and does just fine

Ken,

How does Rachels 4runner do with the RTT?

:beer:

Romer
08-22-2010, 10:42 PM
She used it once with the RTT with no issues. It was a lighter weight one though. It's the same RTT that I took on the Rubicon, the one convert now has.

We replaced the oem rack with the Yakima that you can see in the photos I posted

MDH33
08-24-2010, 04:53 PM
Check this one out Perry. Spendy, but :cool:

http://cosprings.craigslist.org/cto/1910203855.html

bh4rnnr
08-24-2010, 07:28 PM
Check this one out Perry. Spendy, but :cool:

http://cosprings.craigslist.org/cto/1910203855.html

Seems way pricey. At that point I might as wel buy the Gecko or a third gen 4runner.

treerootCO
08-24-2010, 07:42 PM
Seems way pricey. At that point I might as wel buy the Gecko or a third gen 4runner.

Dang... I got all excited but I clicked on the link and it was a minitruck :p:

bh4rnnr
08-24-2010, 07:48 PM
Dang... I got all excited but I clicked on the link and it was a minitruck :p:

Sorry:hill:. Christo gets enough money from you.

Hulk
08-25-2010, 02:45 PM
Seems way pricey. At that point I might as wel buy the Gecko or a third gen 4runner.

I've seen a bunch of third gen 4Runners for about $5K. Is that more than your budget?

MDH33
08-25-2010, 09:04 PM
Perry, if you're truly interested in a 3rd gen runner rather than a first gen pickup or runner, I'll keep my eyes open for one and post up what I find. I just figured you preferred the old-school rides... based on your tatse in women...:bolt: :D

SteveH
08-25-2010, 09:29 PM
http://cosprings.craigslist.org/cto/1919286940.html - $4000 3rd gen 4Runner -

bh4rnnr
08-25-2010, 10:06 PM
I've seen a bunch of third gen 4Runners for about $5K. Is that more than your budget?

No not really... Figure i'd save money for the next two years to get enough put away for something nice. Currently, I have no budget.

Perry, if you're truly interested in a 3rd gen runner rather than a first gen pickup or runner, I'll keep my eyes open for one and post up what I find. I just figured you preferred the old-school rides... based on your tatse in women...:bolt: :D

:rolleyes::lmao::beer:

http://cosprings.craigslist.org/cto/1919286940.html - $4000 3rd gen 4Runner -

Keep them coming.

P.S; no $ saved up yet, it's all been going to the dentist:rolleyes:

Red_Chili
08-26-2010, 09:30 AM
The 3rd gen 4runner is a great compromise. Great offroading, you can get them with a rear locker and great on the highway. Good MPG at 18-24

I'm still waiting for that kind of mpg I keep hearing about. I think there is a midnight gremlin who takes some of my gas and puts it in your tank to make those numbers vs. mine. 15-17mpg

RedCreeper
08-26-2010, 10:26 AM
seen this runner today.... not sure if i put this up before...

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=10930363&cat=402&lpid=&search=

dont know much about them but seems to have a lot of good stuff on it.

powderpig
08-26-2010, 11:04 AM
Being a bit honest here and more blunt not trying to piss you off Perry.

Maybe I am wrong, but is this a yearly thing with you Perry, over the last few years. Trying to save up for some thing and do more talking about it, then making it happen. I feel for you in some way, having a dream, not having the money to make it all happen, it seems like the years float by(i can relate in many ways).
With the last major problem you had with crack frame and a arm floating off. I personally scrap that frame, it has showen you it weakness and I am there are some other places on that frame that are hurt or are weak.
So then move on, borrow some money from one of your family Or use your job and get into a 2000 and up (yes strap your self to a payment and get what you want, most banks will not loan on anything older than a 2000 model year).
Do it for your 2-3 years and make it your main focus to pay it off. Some times it is easier to make payments then to save(how many years have you been trying to save for you front suspension). Get a second job to pay it off and be a work a holic for a couple of years.
Then you just need to figure out what type of vehicle you need, Truck or runner. Yes i hear you do not like 80's( I can not figure that out).
Your young, it is not easy to give up one part of life to accomplish the other in the future.
Yes I agree with Wes and others, you are more of a expedition type, than Hard core.
Good luck with your choice and how you accomplish it.

Dr. Schlegs
08-26-2010, 11:19 AM
Sorry to jump on the Band Wagon here with Robbie. He does make a good point - Live Life.

After I got divorced, I was on my Internship and I bought my 80 on Ebay. It was want I wanted and no one was going to stop me. I got a loan and flew to OH to pick it up. I sold my Corolla and picked up a part time job at Papa Murphy's. I remember my application had Ph.D's and MD's as references and highest grade completed was the "28th". It was a perfect job for me at that time. Kept me busy and was low stress, plus got free pizza's. I made extra payments on it, and now it is paid off. The money that I budgeted for payments now goes to tires, PS conversations, and other Land Cruiser funds.

Hulk
08-26-2010, 12:06 PM
...picked up a part time job at Papa Murphy's. I remember my application had Ph.D's and MD's as references and highest grade completed was the "28th". It was a perfect job for me at that time. Kept me busy and was low stress, plus got free pizza's.

Great story, Kev. Love the free pizzas part of it, too.

Perry, I agree with Robbie, too. Go get yourself a car loan and get a sweet ride now. A $5K car loan for 5 years will cost you about $165/month, and that's with no money down. If you can't afford it, start tending bar once or twice a week. (Plus, free beer.)

Dr. Schlegs
08-26-2010, 12:12 PM
A $5K car loan for 5 years will cost you about $165/month, and that's with no money down. If you can't afford it, start tending bar once or twice a week. (Plus, free beer.)

You could make about $80 a night just in tips easy.

corsair23
08-26-2010, 12:31 PM
seen this runner today.... not sure if i put this up before...

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=10930363&cat=402&lpid=&search=

dont know much about them but seems to have a lot of good stuff on it.

Why does that look so ridiculously low price wise for what has been put into it? There's got to be a catch?

wesintl
08-26-2010, 12:36 PM
you really need to tend bar. delivering pizza's is a racket. you may make 80 bucks in tips but - your gas and - your wear and tear on vehicle it ain't great. It might have been back when gas was a $1.50. BTDT, it sucks

Dr. Schlegs
08-26-2010, 01:02 PM
Just to clarify, I never delivered. I only made pizzas, washed dishes and made cookie dough. All the honeys come out once you open a 20 lb bag of chocolate chips. :lmao:

wesintl
08-26-2010, 01:15 PM
oh :D

RedCreeper
08-26-2010, 01:50 PM
Why does that look so ridiculously low price wise for what has been put into it? There's got to be a catch?

was wundering the same. but dont know much about them sooooooo....

AxleIke
08-26-2010, 02:42 PM
The reason its that low is that he's trying to sell it quickly. He could probably get 8 ish if he waited a while.

Building a truck like a 4runner isn't a good investment. You dump 27k in, and if you sell, you are lucky to get 10k out.

Just the way it goes. Thats why I've heard the saying, and like it so much, if you build it, you are marrying it. Essentially, if you decide to get rid of the rig, you will lose your shirt in the process, so to speak.

Perry, I don't know you very well, as I think I've met you once, maybe.

However, if you do enjoy the expedition type wheeling, there is a lot to be said for setting a truck up for comfort. If it were me, I'd stay away from anything pre 95.

IMO, if you didn't go with an 80 series cruiser, the best expo swap you could do would be to put an FJ80 suspension up front, and run factory in the back. You could put cromo everything into the truck, and elockers front and rear. The 3rd gen runner would be perfect for this, as you would only need 1" spacers in the rear. Keep it near stock height, and with the 80 series radius arms, and coil suspension, you get a good ride, that is strong and durable, low, and the truck is halfway comfy.

I hate driving my 4runner for longer than 4 hours. Its old, noisy, and made for smaller people. I've made a few mods to account for the height differences, but its still a drag.

bh4rnnr
08-29-2010, 04:59 PM
Being a bit honest here and more blunt not trying to piss you off Perry.

Maybe I am wrong, but is this a yearly thing with you Perry, over the last few years. Trying to save up for some thing and do more talking about it, then making it happen. I feel for you in some way, having a dream, not having the money to make it all happen, it seems like the years float by(i can relate in many ways).
With the last major problem you had with crack frame and a arm floating off. I personally scrap that frame, it has showen you it weakness and I am there are some other places on that frame that are hurt or are weak.
So then move on, borrow some money from one of your family Or use your job and get into a 2000 and up (yes strap your self to a payment and get what you want, most banks will not loan on anything older than a 2000 model year).
Do it for your 2-3 years and make it your main focus to pay it off. Some times it is easier to make payments then to save(how many years have you been trying to save for you front suspension). Get a second job to pay it off and be a work a holic for a couple of years.
Then you just need to figure out what type of vehicle you need, Truck or runner. Yes i hear you do not like 80's( I can not figure that out).
Your young, it is not easy to give up one part of life to accomplish the other in the future.
Yes I agree with Wes and others, you are more of a expedition type, than Hard core.
Good luck with your choice and how you accomplish it.

Robbie, not pissing me off at all. Thanks for being honest, always good to here this. I guess to one point, I never ended uip doing the front suspension because well, it just worked. And though there were things I wanted to do, this year would have been no different, spending more time focusing on being out there and bettering my photography then spending money and time on upgrades.

Guess I have taken Scott Brady's advice of "Use what you have".

As far as the loan, i've thought about it, I just cant bring myself to dit it. I promised myself long ago that i'd never be in debt. So I have no credit Cards, tool box is all paid off and the only current bill I have is my dentist bill (will be paid off soon).

It does get frustrating some times being on the bottom end of the financial spectrum, but at the same time i'm doing better than before.

Sorry to jump on the Band Wagon here with Robbie. He does make a good point - Live Life.

After I got divorced, I was on my Internship and I bought my 80 on Ebay. It was want I wanted and no one was going to stop me. I got a loan and flew to OH to pick it up. I sold my Corolla and picked up a part time job at Papa Murphy's. I remember my application had Ph.D's and MD's as references and highest grade completed was the "28th". It was a perfect job for me at that time. Kept me busy and was low stress, plus got free pizza's. I made extra payments on it, and now it is paid off. The money that I budgeted for payments now goes to tires, PS conversations, and other Land Cruiser funds.

Yeah, great story, thanks for sharing:thumb:

Great story, Kev. Love the free pizzas part of it, too.

Perry, I agree with Robbie, too. Go get yourself a car loan and get a sweet ride now. A $5K car loan for 5 years will cost you about $165/month, and that's with no money down. If you can't afford it, start tending bar once or twice a week. (Plus, free beer.)

Matt, as I stated to Robbie, I can't put myself into debt by getting a lone. But looking at my budget, I should at least have enought to buy a used third gen by Cm 11. Swap the tent and Radios over and i'd at least have something to drive out there. Then I could just ride along for the rest of the week.

Found a few photo contests that I was going to enter.

I have to be careful on the thrid job part since I do affordable housing with my apartment, if I make more than the stated amount my rent goes up.

The reason its that low is that he's trying to sell it quickly. He could probably get 8 ish if he waited a while.

Building a truck like a 4runner isn't a good investment. You dump 27k in, and if you sell, you are lucky to get 10k out.

Just the way it goes. Thats why I've heard the saying, and like it so much, if you build it, you are marrying it. Essentially, if you decide to get rid of the rig, you will lose your shirt in the process, so to speak.

Perry, I don't know you very well, as I think I've met you once, maybe.

However, if you do enjoy the expedition type wheeling, there is a lot to be said for setting a truck up for comfort. If it were me, I'd stay away from anything pre 95.

IMO, if you didn't go with an 80 series cruiser, the best expo swap you could do would be to put an FJ80 suspension up front, and run factory in the back. You could put cromo everything into the truck, and elockers front and rear. The 3rd gen runner would be perfect for this, as you would only need 1" spacers in the rear. Keep it near stock height, and with the 80 series radius arms, and coil suspension, you get a good ride, that is strong and durable, low, and the truck is halfway comfy.

I hate driving my 4runner for longer than 4 hours. Its old, noisy, and made for smaller people. I've made a few mods to account for the height differences, but its still a drag.

Yeah Isaac, think it has not been to many times that we have hung out....

Odly, I always enjoyed driving the 4runner for long stretches, even if it was a bit rough. I'm really leaning towards the 3rd gen now, and have been looking at prices all weekend.

80's are a great vehicle and wheeler, but there bigger than what I need. Me being single, no kids or pets.


:beer::beer:

Romer
08-29-2010, 05:16 PM
Perry something to think about for the future. You will never be able to get a house loan until you have had a loan and showed you can pay it off.

I got Rachel a loan on her 4runner, we made payments for a while and paid it off. She has a credit card that she pays off everymonth. Ran her credit score when she was 20 and it was 781 based on the one loan and the paid off credit card.

I am in process of doing the same thing with Sarah

If you ever have a dream down the pike of buying your own house, you need to think about how to establish credit.

Those with a low credit rating get very high interest rates vs those with good or excellent credit.

Your no debt means no credit history means high risk for a loan. I know it doesnt make sense, but thats the way the world works

Just something to think about if you ever in your life plan on buying a home

wesintl
08-29-2010, 05:17 PM
I promised myself long ago that i'd never be in debt. So I have no credit Cards, tool box is all paid off and the only current bill I have is my dentist bill (will be paid off soon).

While i admire your conviction and totally appropriate with CC, a car loan and a house loan are appropriate reasons to go into debt. As long as they are reasonable rates and costs within salary. There are many reasons why you would want to as well. It would be more advantageous to do so than not.

powderpig
08-29-2010, 06:55 PM
Well if the front end worked, why even doing anything about it? Why think about anything else?

Inukshuk
08-29-2010, 08:06 PM
Perry something to think about for the future. You will never be able to get a house loan until you have had a loan and showed you can pay it off.

Yes. Perry, its is good to use a credit card just a little. Pay it off every month and there is no charge.

As for vehicles, and having been on all but one Outlaws Run with you and other overland adventures, a Taco with the extra or extended or crew or whatever the heck that's called cab strikes me as perfect for you.

AxleIke
08-29-2010, 10:10 PM
x3 or whatever for credit cards and loans.

I use my card exclusively. Almost never pay with cash or check. However, I don't exceed what I can pay off monthly. At the end of the year, I get a nice check for all the cash back stuff (5% on qualified items, 1-2 on other stuff). Also have a nice credit score, though not a ton of it. However, It was enough to get a very good rate on a home loan.

bh4rnnr
08-29-2010, 10:25 PM
Perry something to think about for the future. You will never be able to get a house loan until you have had a loan and showed you can pay it off.

I got Rachel a loan on her 4runner, we made payments for a while and paid it off. She has a credit card that she pays off everymonth. Ran her credit score when she was 20 and it was 781 based on the one loan and the paid off credit card.

I am in process of doing the same thing with Sarah

If you ever have a dream down the pike of buying your own house, you need to think about how to establish credit.

Those with a low credit rating get very high interest rates vs those with good or excellent credit.

Your no debt means no credit history means high risk for a loan. I know it doesnt make sense, but thats the way the world works

Just something to think about if you ever in your life plan on buying a home

Ken, thanks for the thoughts! But I don't ever see myself owning a house. I do not want to be tied down.

I know what it's like to not have credit, 800$ just to get a cell phone. Again, i'm not going to put myself in debt just to have something. Don't think i'd ever enjoy that 3rd gen knowing I have to pay it off.


I'd rather save money than deal with the people that got us into the **** were in now

While i admire your conviction and totally appropriate with CC, a car loan and a house loan are appropriate reasons to go into debt. As long as they are reasonable rates and costs within salary. There are many reasons why you would want to as well. It would be more advantageous to do so than not.

Sorry Wes, not gonna do it.

Well if the front end worked, why even doing anything about it? Why think about anything else?

Robbie, the front end worked, until it broke during Cm10.... Now I have to think about the future...

x3 or whatever for credit cards and loans.

I use my card exclusively. Almost never pay with cash or check. However, I don't exceed what I can pay off monthly. At the end of the year, I get a nice check for all the cash back stuff (5% on qualified items, 1-2 on other stuff). Also have a nice credit score, though not a ton of it. However, It was enough to get a very good rate on a home loan.

Again, thanks for all the thoughts! This is me being stuborn. No Card, No loan, No debt. I'll ride along till I can get something trail worthy.



No loans, no 80's.

:beer::beer:

Romer
08-29-2010, 10:30 PM
Ken, thanks for the thoughts! But I don't ever see myself owning a house. I do not want to be tied down.



No problem Perry. You gotta live your life the way that makes you happy.

You must be able to look at your life and figure you want to be in the same place in 30 years. Good for you, that takes guts:beer:

JadeRunner
08-29-2010, 10:51 PM
I'll be sure to invite you on my next club run Perry.


I'm still waiting for that kind of mpg I keep hearing about. I think there is a midnight gremlin who takes some of my gas and puts it in your tank to make those numbers vs. mine. 15-17mpg

That sounds about right Bill. I got those numbers Romer quoted when I was stock. I can't believe Rachel gets that now that she's on 33's and armored.

I just checked my gas log. I average 12-16.5 for my normal tanks when wheeling is involved. Which is the norm for me since it's not my daily driver. I did see a 3-4 mpg jump when I switched to premium (I can't believe it took me so long to do that). I get 18.4 mpg now on highway trips to Colo. Springs and back. And I'm totin' 3 heavy skids plates and bumpers. Robbie commented it's pretty sluggish compared to his daughters stock 2000.

Uncle Ben
08-29-2010, 10:57 PM
No loans, no 80's.

:beer::beer:

Good luck! Even Peter Pan had to grow up one day and leave Neverland!

Hulk
08-30-2010, 01:43 AM
Again, thanks for all the thoughts! This is me being stuborn. No Card, No loan, No debt. I'll ride along till I can get something trail worthy.

No loans, no 80's.

"No, it's just - I - You know, I just think, right now I have *one key*, you know, everything I own is in the car, and I just... I like that; you know, I mean, I just - if I get an apartment, that's two keys, if I get a job, you know, um, I might have to open or close, that's more keys..."

Graham from Sex, Lies and Videotape.

nakman
08-30-2010, 09:35 AM
No problem Perry. You gotta live your life the way that makes you happy.

You must be able to look at your life and figure you want to be in the same place in 2 years.

fixed that one for you Romer... buying a house is a 2 year minimum, not 30. :D


Perry, get over it and get a credit card. One thing you can't do without one is rent a car- you may not need one now, but you never know what may come up in future travels, why handicap yourself.

Uncle Ben
08-30-2010, 09:41 AM
fixed that one for you Romer... buying a house is a 2 year minimum, not 30. :D


Perry, get over it and get a credit card. One thing you can't do without one is rent a car- you may not need one now, but you never know what may come up in future travels, why handicap yourself.

Agree! With your low credit score your only going to qualify for a 3k to 5k limit card anyway. Use it, log your spending and pay it every month. Your credit will build pretty fast. Get something like a Capital One card and you'll even earn miles so you can fly cheap or free to your future wifes country whom you haven't met yet...

DaveInDenver
08-30-2010, 09:54 AM
Perry, get over it and get a credit card. One thing you can't do without one is rent a car- you may not need one now, but you never know what may come up in future travels, why handicap yourself.
I respectfully disagree Nakman. If he gets along without a credit card then there is no reason to bother with them. It does hamstring a person in some ways, but Perry seems to get along just fine when he traveled to Ireland, for example.

We're coming closer to not using them at all and keep asking issuing companies to reduce our limits. Not to mention we've had identify theft issues and so have become extremely weary of using them. We have unlinked them from auto pay accounts and have started using random online account generators for Internet transactions. The CC companies have tools that generates a single use fake account number, CCV and expiration date so that if someone is snooping the generated number will be declined as invalid on a second use. We also have started paying cash whenever we can't see the card at all times, like restaurants when they take your card to swipe.

Romer
08-30-2010, 10:56 AM
fixed that one for you Romer... buying a house is a 2 year minimum, not 30. :D


Perry, get over it and get a credit card. One thing you can't do without one is rent a car- you may not need one now, but you never know what may come up in future travels, why handicap yourself.

That wasnt my message though.

It was where does he see himself when he is 55? Thats why I decided to go to college after taking time after high school to bum around and do what I wanted

Dr. Schlegs
08-30-2010, 11:52 AM
Romer makes a good point. While things seem to be very upside-down right now. You need to have some foresight for the future. Where and what do you want to be at age 55? Make a goal and set of course.

Are the choices you are making today, put you an target for your long-term goals?

AxleIke
08-30-2010, 12:39 PM
I respectfully disagree Nakman. If he gets along without a credit card then there is no reason to bother with them. It does hamstring a person in some ways, but Perry seems to get along just fine when he traveled to Ireland, for example.

We're coming closer to not using them at all and keep asking issuing companies to reduce our limits. Not to mention we've had identify theft issues and so have become extremely weary of using them. We have unlinked them from auto pay accounts and have started using random online account generators for Internet transactions. The CC companies have tools that generates a single use fake account number, CCV and expiration date so that if someone is snooping the generated number will be declined as invalid on a second use. We also have started paying cash whenever we can't see the card at all times, like restaurants when they take your card to swipe.

I have to disagree here. Reducing your limits reduces your credit. Obviously, if no one used them, we'd be fine, but since the majority of people in this country do, the rest of our ability to get financing is vastly reduced.

As for worrying about fraud, I think its a valid point, and I've had fraudulent charges come up twice. Both times the full amount was refunded to me by the company, and they went out and dealt with the issue. Most cards are pretty worry free in the that department now a days.

Obviously Perry, you can do as you wish. I think most of us are just pointing out that its not the card thats the issue, but spending habits, that have resulted in the credit problem in this country. If you don't want one, then no worries.

leiniesred
08-30-2010, 02:08 PM
We don't have any credit cards. We were able to rent a car at Alamo using our debit cards last week. It says DEBIT right on it, but it also says VISA and starts with a 4. Maybe that is why it wasn't a problem. It has been a problem in the past. (like 5 years ago)

Bighead
08-30-2010, 02:20 PM
I just checked my gas log. I average 12-16.5 for my normal tanks when wheeling is involved. Which is the norm for me since it's not my daily driver. I did see a 3-4 mpg jump when I switched to premium (I can't believe it took me so long to do that).

Apparently I need to switch to premium. That is pretty good for what your 4Runner is wearing.

DaveInDenver
08-30-2010, 02:21 PM
I have to disagree here. Reducing your limits reduces your credit. Obviously, if no one used them, we'd be fine, but since the majority of people in this country do, the rest of our ability to get financing is vastly reduced.
Can you elaborate. Are you saying that by us asking to reduce our unused credit I am affecting your ability to get credit? I have a low 800 FICO, so I'm not sure what I can do differently.

FJBRADY
08-30-2010, 02:34 PM
We don't have any credit cards. We were able to rent a car at Alamo using our debit cards last week. It says DEBIT right on it, but it also says VISA and starts with a 4. Maybe that is why it wasn't a problem. It has been a problem in the past. (like 5 years ago)

Only pitfall with using a debt card in that situation is that you do not have case with Visa if you have a dispute with the charge since it is same as cash.

Can you elaborate. Are you saying that by us asking to reduce our unused credit I am affecting your ability to get credit? I have a low 800 FICO, so I'm not sure what I can do differently.

Well maybe. You are reducing your overall credit availability....not so much an issue since your in the low 8's, but unnecessary IMHO. You are more attractive, finanically speaking, retaining your available credit and not using it rather than reducing it. These days Banks are less likely to allow you to expand your unsecure debt, credit cards, should you need to.

DaveInDenver
08-30-2010, 03:11 PM
Well maybe. You are reducing your overall credit availability....not so much an issue since your in the low 8's, but unnecessary IMHO. You are more attractive, finanically speaking, retaining your available credit and not using it rather than reducing it. These days Banks are less likely to allow you to expand your unsecure debt, credit cards, should you need to.
My understanding of the algorithms is they are looking for utilization rates and being on the extreme low end was confusing the formulas. IOW, most people fall in the 20%-80% range of balance-to-limit, but since we were <5% for long periods the algorithm's mis-calibration was giving us a lower rating than we should have. That seemed to be the case because going from ~1.5% monthly utilization up to around 5% (so instead of spending more, we asked for less ceiling, how unAmerican, eh?) bumped my score up a few points. I've been told that there seems to be steps at approximately 25%, 50% and 75% utilization, so floating in the sub-25% but still high enough to register point is where you want to be to maximize your rating. Below a certain point, utilization must be unweighted in the final number if it's insufficiently reliable and there is an apparent usage threshold that they want to see.

The algorithm also apparently compares income to aggregate limit to utilization, so if you have too much credit and very low use your risk assessment increases because the chance of you loading up your cards without any hope of paying them off goes up. It seems you want to float around 250%~300% available credit to annual income. This I don't have to analyze because I would think it's total credit available, which is the amount beyond your balance. But it might be the aggregate compared to income, which also makes sense.

So since between us we've never had a student loan, only had one car loan (me 14 years ago, paid off in 2.5 years) and two mortgages (no refinances, rock solid payments), the formulas after throwing out sporadic credit card utilization didn't have enough new data to chew on and over time the rating goes down because of expiring data. I'm not complaining, because I sit in the 98% percentile on FICO. And this by more or less kindly telling the banks and credit companies to f$%k off, which is sorta the irony.

Romer
08-30-2010, 03:19 PM
I dont think it matters what your limits are.

Just showing you are current is great. This was two years ago, but rachel had a $500 limit on her CC and one car loan and her credit score was in the high 700's at age 20.

I think just getting some credit and showing you can handle it is a big step. Even if you get a credit card with no ffees, make one charge, pay it off and then lock it up in a safe.

treerootCO
08-30-2010, 03:53 PM
Which one is a 4th gen?

I don't know why they call it a 4th gen. I think Perry should buy a 6th gen.

This is how I read it:

Fj25 - 1st Gen
Fj40/45 - 2nd Gen
Fj55 - 3rd Gen
Fj60/62 - 4th Gen
Fj70 aka Montero - 5th Gen
Fj80/Fzj80 - 6th Gen

Uncle Ben
08-30-2010, 04:12 PM
I don't know why they call it a 4th gen. I think Perry should buy a 6th gen.

This is how I read it:

Fj25 - 1st Gen
Fj40/45 - 2nd Gen
Fj55 - 3rd Gen
Fj60/62 - 4th Gen
Fj70 aka Montero - 5th Gen
Fj80/Fzj80 - 6th Gen

He's not good enough! ;) :p:

DaveInDenver
08-30-2010, 04:28 PM
I don't know why they call it a 4th gen. I think Perry should buy a 6th gen.

This is how I read it:

Fj25 - 1st Gen
Fj40/45 - 2nd Gen
Fj55 - 3rd Gen
Fj60/62 - 4th Gen
Fj70 aka Montero - 5th Gen
Fj80/Fzj80 - 6th Gen
Never knew that there were Cruiser generations. I figured there would be two branches of the tree, 25-40-70 and 25-45-55-60-80-100.

subzali
08-30-2010, 06:59 PM
After going through Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University, I agree with Perry. Kinda.

Since Jacki and I are looking at buying a house, I am glad we both have had credit cards and a car loan in the past and have good credit history, so we can hopefully get a good mortgage rate when we get to that point. Beyond that, I don't plan on needing to borrow money ever again, so credit becomes unimportant to me. I'm not going to speak for Dave, but that was the idea I was reading into his argument about decreasing his credit limit - he doesn't need it and doesn't seem to be planning on needing it, so why have it (especially if having a high limit that you aren't using makes your credit score go down)?

By the way, you can do anything with a VISA debit card that one could do with a VISA credit card - except go into debt. I rented a car last September in Hawaii using a debit card. And no, it's not the same as cash/ATM if it is swiped and used as a credit card - you have the same security protections as a credit card:
http://usa.visa.com/personal/security/visa_security_program/zero_liability.html

Perry, I'm glad you're trying to stay true to what you believe. But I think what you do really need to do is look at your future and see where you want to be in 30 years, and then focus on what it will take to get there.

If you want a new car, I'm with you that you don't have to get a loan to get it. Maybe if you were to get it RIGHT NOW then yes. I wanted to get a new truck RIGHT NOW last summer, so I got a loan for it and it's felt like being in slavery for the past 14 months. Personally I don't like having this thing weighing over my head. So my wife and I are on a plan, and very focused, to pay it off and work a plan so that we won't have to take out a loan on a car ever again. Right now we are more focused because we have a creditor that can come and repo the thing if things go haywire and we stop paying. But once we get it paid off (before the end of the year), it will be up to us to keep staying focused to reach our other financial goals. I'm just going to say that I believe that if you fix a goal for yourself and are committed to staying focused on that goal, you will reach it. But you have to set the goal. Do you want a new(er) truck? Then set the goal and reach it. Do you want to get out of the city? Then set the goal and reach it. But you already knew that, because you've paid for some pretty expensive things with cash, by saving up.

One thing though, my wife and I are following Dave Ramsey's suggestions for prioritizing our financial life, and I have to say that that is helping us the most with this process that we're going through. So make sure you have your priorities set up and the foundation in place to allow you to win and then you'll be able to go forward and not look back.

That's my :twocents: :thumb:

bh4rnnr
08-30-2010, 08:05 PM
Good luck! Even Peter Pan had to grow up one day and leave Neverland!

So growing up means that I have to buy an 80?:rolleyes:.

And yeah, this be a lot to take in, give me a bit:cheers:

Thanks guys!

:beer::beer:

wesintl
08-30-2010, 08:13 PM
You don't want to be tied down but if you don't have reliable transportation you will never be able to go anywhere. you've lived in the same 10 mile radius for 7+ years. are you planning to be untied next month or the month after? I've picked up and moved 1700 miles without knowing a sole. Any one of us could leave in a month or two and move. It's called selling. Also while it may be smarter being younger to rent eventually you'll want to get in on a little thing called appreciation. I've made over 100k on a home. You're saying you would turn that down?

by your writing you seem to accept being at one of the salary range and your situation. I hope this isn't so.

I find it ironic that while you waive your fist in defiance of a loan the other hand is open to affordable housing.

bh4rnnr
08-30-2010, 08:31 PM
That wasnt my message though.

It was where does he see himself when he is 55? Thats why I decided to go to college after taking time after high school to bum around and do what I wanted

Romer makes a good point. While things seem to be very upside-down right now. You need to have some foresight for the future. Where and what do you want to be at age 55? Make a goal and set of course.

Are the choices you are making today, put you an target for your long-term goals?

The only place I see myself when i'm 55 is exploring the west. Reading about it when i'm not out there. This is the only life I know. A house ties me down from doing this. So does a pet.

I don't want to bother others, I just want to get out there and do what I love.

You don't want to be tied down but if you don't have reliable transportation you will never be able to go anywhere. you've lived in the same 10 mile radius for 7+ years. are you planning to be untied next month or the month after? I've picked up and moved 1700 miles without knowing a sole. Any one of us could leave in a month or two and move. It's called selling. Also while it may be smarter being younger to rent eventually you'll want to get in on a little thing called appreciation. I've made over 100k on a home. You're saying you would turn that down?

by your writing you seem to accept being at one of the salary range and your situation. I hope this isn't so.

I find it ironic that while you waive your fist in defiance of a loan the other hand is open to affordable housing.

Wes,

I've lived in the same area my whole life. Borne and raised. I've thought about leaving, maybe move to SLC. Just cant do it, knowing my familys history here.

I didnt think i'm waiving my fist in defiance towards a loan. It's more than I can handle. As far as affordable housing, it's what my income alows:rolleyes:

:beer:

wesintl
08-30-2010, 08:56 PM
If i'm mis reading things i apologize. you said you never wanted to go into debt, period. now you're saying you're not waiving your fist in defiance it's just more than you can handle? meaning if you had the extra income you would do it?

I think having a financial mentor might help you. Talk about these things. Maybe you are afraid because you don't know or understand some of the concepts? I don't know, it's perfectly acceptable though. no on has all the answers. Just as one would have a professional mentor. ie helping someone on weekends with wedding photography, etc. they can give you tips, idea's on angles, all sorts of stuff. Sometimes it's difficult in life to learn these things on your own and often people are willing to help.

bh4rnnr
08-30-2010, 09:16 PM
If i'm mis reading things i apologize. you said you never wanted to go into debt, period. now you're saying you're not waiving your fist in defiance it's just more than you can handle? meaning if you had the extra income you would do it?

I think having a financial mentor might help you. Talk about these things. Maybe you are afraid because you don't know or understand some of the concepts? I don't know, it's perfectly acceptable though. no on has all the answers. Just as one would have a professional mentor. ie helping someone on weekends with wedding photography, etc. they can give you tips, idea's on angles, all sorts of stuff. Sometimes it's difficult in life to learn these things on your own and often people are willing to help.

Wes, you put the word "Defiance" into my meaning. I dont disagree with debt's or loans, i've just found in my experiances, to many people have over done them selves. Racked up 10k on one credit card only to start another. They've bought houses or cars they cant afford. Go into debt just for a loan to go to school.

My so called "Defiance" is the unability to pay for these things. Yes, I want a new Tacoma or 3rd gen 4runner. I know my limits in my income, i'm not going to go beyond my means. Thus my "Defiance" towards loans.

:beer:

Inukshuk
08-30-2010, 11:43 PM
So growing up means that I have to buy an 80?:rolleyes:

Nope - I know lots of immature guys with 80's :)

Hulk
08-30-2010, 11:57 PM
Perry, do you see yourself relying on the safety net of affordable housing in 5 years? How about 2 years? Do you have a vision for yourself that involves making more money and moving out of the low income bracket, paying the market rate for your apartment, upgrading your vehicle, maybe buying a small house that has a garage where you can park your Toyota and keep your nice toolbox? Wouldn't it be nice to pay off that small house 15-30 years from now, so you could not pay rent for the rest of your life?

You move cautiously, and for your financial health, that is mostly a good thing. However, you have a skewed view of debt.

Debt when used wisely towards a goal can be a good tool. For example, if you go into debt to pay for an education, that's almost always a wise investment (if you're serious about learning and improving your opportunities). Buying a house (that you can afford) is one of the best investments you can make. As the saying goes, they aren't making more real estate, buy it before the price goes up.

The people who get a credit card, buy a bunch of crap they don't need, and spend years transferring balances from one card to another have made mistakes. No one here is advocating for such irresponsible money management techniques. But if you're on a vacation and have an unexpected situation come up, a credit card can save your bacon. In my mind, it's as important a recovery tool as a 5-gallon tank of water.

Debt is no more evil than a hammer. It can be used for good or for ill. You can use a hammer to build a house or to kill someone. How you use a tool is up to you.

I'm not really advocating what you should do. Whether you get a car loan or save up your money doesn't matter, as long as you're willing to wait.

The thing that strikes me is that you seem to have a plan to remain poor. Living the simple life is a good thing, so long as you're satisfied with it. If however, you find yourself wanting a bit more than you can afford, you have two choices towards happiness:
1. Eliminate the desire for better things.
2. Improve your situation so that some of the things you desire are within reach, with work.

You can't walk on water until you step out of the boat.

MDH33
08-31-2010, 08:43 AM
You don't want to be tied down but if you don't have reliable transportation you will never be able to go anywhere.

This rings so true Perry. Not having a reliable rig is what's holding you back from not being able to get out and explore the West an shoot photos. A truck payment is a temporary evil that will enable you to get out and enjoy doing what you do without having to lose time waiting to save the $ to pay cash. That lost time is more detrimental than a short term amount of debt.

I still think you could go cheaper than a 3rd gen, taco, 80, etc and have an uber reliable rig with a really small payment and then you would be out in the desert rather than at the bar. (how much is that monthly bar tab costing anyway?) ;)

this one is even at a dealership:
http://denver.craigslist.org/ctd/1924181701.html

Inukshuk
08-31-2010, 09:45 AM
Not having a reliable rig is what's holding you back from not being able to get out and explore the West an shoot photos.

I beg to differ. I have wheeled the most remote places in the US with Perry and his 4-runner for 7 years and it only ever failed or had any problem I am aware of once in Moab. His rig is rock solid reliable.

Only Perry is holding back Perry. He knows it :thumb: Not a big deal. He'll be just fine. Great thread!

AxleIke
08-31-2010, 09:53 AM
I beg to differ. I have wheeled the most remote places in the US with Perry and his 4-runner for 7 years and it only ever failed or had any problem I am aware of once in Moab. His rig is rock solid reliable.

Only Perry is holding back Perry. He knows it :thumb: Not a big deal. He'll be just fine. Great thread!

I could be wrong, but whats holding him back right now is that the suspension broke off the frame, no? So it was rock solid reliable. Not any more.

DaveInDenver
08-31-2010, 10:04 AM
"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose."

I still suggest that Perry find another 86-95 4Runner or mini truck that is not beat up, move over what's still good and be done (add an IFS truss though!). Yes, I would stick with IFS so that he can swap the FR and RR thirds and tires he already has. That '87 Martin linked would be a great base. Add a camper shell and/or rack (for the RTT) and start driving. I would not take on a loan for a $3,500 truck, not even sure you could get one for something 20 years old like that. Maybe a family or friendly loan. It does not have to be a complex issue fer goodness sakes.

rover67
08-31-2010, 11:07 AM
Hey Perry. Remember that we can beef up that frame if you want and get skelator going reliably again. Just throwing it out there.

Uncle Ben
08-31-2010, 12:35 PM
Hey Perry. Remember that we can beef up that frame if you want and get skelator going reliably again. Just throwing it out there.

Not only that but to ignore Skelator you render it nearly worthless for any kind of resale value. Spend the money on it and upgrade it and you'll have trade in or at least some cash value to swap it for something else.

Inukshuk
08-31-2010, 12:43 PM
I could be wrong, but whats holding him back right now is that the suspension broke off the frame, no? So it was rock solid reliable. Not any more.

True it broke, but Marco fixed it up proper on the trail and has offered to do even more in the garage.

True what Robbie said earlier that it is sure possible to have more flaws, but it can be checked and reinforced for pennies.

We need to get Perry to air down more too.

And on top of all that I still think he'd be thrilled in a newer expedition built Taco. Its always been my opinion that Skelator is not worth paying someone $4,000 for a SAS. It would be different if Perry had a garage and like to do the work himself for fun, but if you are paying for a result, that $4,000 is better spent to achieve his goals.

Air Randy
08-31-2010, 02:16 PM
Hey Perry. Remember that we can beef up that frame if you want and get skelator going reliably again. Just throwing it out there.

I agree. When we took the Gecko to Holy Cross last month the front spring hangar on the drivers rear spring ripped out of the frame. Upon closer inspection the frame was really rusted out on both sides in the area where it curves up. Apparently this is common on minis. We box plated the frame on both sides, inside and out and now it is stronger than new. I have to believe we can get you fixed up good enough to use the rig or sell it with very little cost.

Dr. Schlegs
08-31-2010, 04:58 PM
Many of the 1st gen 4Runner guys had a similar issue at the CM2010 PreRun. I know there has to be some people with welders and scrap metal in this club.:rolleyes: