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Chris
08-20-2010, 04:09 PM
After failing emissions 3 times due to high NOx I'm in need of expert help in diagnosing why. The limit is 5.0 and I've gotten 7.5 the first time, 8.1 after tuning it up & today 11.2 which shows I'm moving in the wrong direction. :eek:

I did find a crack in the intake 'accordian' and thought I sealed it well but apparently not which would account for some of the increase but even when I replace that I'll probably still be high since I started out high. I'm guessing I split that when I tuned it and put it back on. :o

Anyone dealt with this or knows the emissions well that can find what's going on?

TIA!

Chris

wesintl
08-20-2010, 04:19 PM
most likely cats, How old are they chris?
http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showpost.php?p=106081&postcount=13

Chris
08-20-2010, 04:31 PM
1 year old Wes, I went back to Scott at AAPerformance Muffler and they checked out fine. Working hard but as good as the day installed. Scott said my EGR tube was probably gunked up so I pulled that and it's clean. I had a flat spot on acceleration which was fixed by the tune-up and the trucks running better but the NOx is increasing. :(

wesintl
08-20-2010, 04:39 PM
I thought I remember you saying they were new.. EGR valve? is it running lean?

Chris
08-20-2010, 04:55 PM
The EGR valve appears to be working from what I can determine. Running lean? Perhaps but isn't that controlled by the EFI?

wesintl
08-20-2010, 05:11 PM
if you were to far advanced. what's the timing set at?

Chris
08-20-2010, 05:23 PM
I think it's right on 7 BTDC per the FSM. I have a hard time getting a line of sight on it but it should be right. Idle at 650rpm. It does idle rough but seems the nature of these motors.

powderpig
08-20-2010, 08:49 PM
Is it only NOX you are failing, can you post you other numbers as well?


How are the O 2 sensors?
If these are not working or are 80k miles down the pike, they may need to be replaced. I would only go with Denso, NTK or OEM boxed.

frontrange
08-20-2010, 09:20 PM
If you are sure the EGR is working, I'd check for clogged injectors. I have a spare set I've cleaned & flow tested that I can loan out if that helps.

Chris
08-20-2010, 09:27 PM
I don't know anything about both the O2 sensors or injectors. I appreciate input on how these affect NOx in particular. It's my understanding that what I'm looking for are vacuum leaks and/or EGR issues.

Latest numbers:
HC - .4027
CO - 3.77
CO2 - 668.44
NOx - 11.26

Thanks for your help.

frontrange
08-20-2010, 09:36 PM
NOX is caused by too high combustion chamber temps. It can be caused by an EGR that isn't opening when it should, a too lean condition, advanced timing..

I've cleaned and flow tested 3 sets of 3FE injectors and never seen one that had a decent flow. I had to toss at least 3-4 of them because they were hopelessly clogged. But the sets I had may have come out of engines that were out to pasture for a long time too. Anyway, like I said I still have more of them then I need if you want to try some known good injectors.

powderpig
08-20-2010, 11:12 PM
O 2 sensors tell the computer how lean or rich the exhaust stream is. So it effects too lean or too rich or just right(simple version). So if the O2 sensors are not working, it can lead to a lean condition which leads to NOX. If you have a Factory service manual and a old style VOM(swing meter style), you can check them out per the manual. If not and you do not have any idea of how many miles(but feel they could be a bunch) I would just replace them, it could also lead to better fuel ecomany.
Looking at your number you gave, it looks like you are running on the lean side of the fuel flow.
So If we look at those numbers, you need to make it run richer. So yes it could be injectors, but it could be the O2 sensors as well.
With similar number, I have seen good results with the O2 sensors. But testing them first before replacing is a wise choice.

But as the other suggest, the injectors or EGR could also effect NOX.

Chris
08-20-2010, 11:34 PM
Scott at AAPerformance Muffler tested the cat a couple days ago and said the temps (180 degrees IIRC) shows its running rich and he suggested a clogged EGR pipe. Can bad 02 sensors cause it to run rich? I have put 101,000 miles on the truck myself so they should be on their way out. I don't have cash for parts that may good for a bit longer. The obvious thing is to find a VOM and test it, thanks Robbie.

frontrange
08-21-2010, 12:55 AM
IIRC the voltage output across a narrow band O2 will look like a sine wave if the system is working correctly, but that means you have to have a system that is toggling between too rich and too lean and that means you have to have good (not clogged) injectors, right? If that's the case putting a VOM across the O2 won't really tell you anything.

One thing I don't like about the 3FE is there is no service port on the fuel rail for a pressure test guage. I have a nifty Kent-Moore injector test set that will drive the injectors one at a time with a calibrated pulse train. You just pressurize the system with Key-On, Engine Off, get a pressure reading, send the pulse train and read pressure again. Repeat for each injector and if there is a difference in pressure readings on any injector you have a clogged one.

IOT test the Toyota injectors I have to pull them out and put them on a Chevy fuel rail. In a Chevy I can test all 8 injectors in place in less than 5 minutes without getting my hands dirty. I don't know why Toyota skimped on a simple schrader valve for a fuel rail service port.

Chris
08-21-2010, 08:58 AM
Now you're way beyond me which is good because this is the kind of stuff I'm hoping for to help me nail down my issue.

frontrange
08-21-2010, 11:23 AM
Here's a possibility for you if you want to test the injectors. I while back I got annoyed with the lack of a standard pressure test port on the Toyota fuel rail, so I made a few of these:

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l116/scranage/DSCN1916.jpg

Haven't tried one out yet, but it's simple enough it should work. It replaces the OEM banjo bolt (on the right) for the hard line that goes to the cold start valve with a new one that has the standard Chevy test fitting. With this I can use my Kent-Moore to do an injector balance test without pulling the rail and injectors out.

So if you want to come by my shop it shouldn't take more than 15 minutes to install one of these and test the injectors. If they test OK and the EGR isn't leaking, I'd say go ahead and drop the cabbage on new O2 sensors.

TIMZTOY
08-21-2010, 11:48 AM
There should be a banjo fitting somewhere abouts the fuelrail. You'd hook up a double banjo bolt into that spot to check pressure ! (not 100% if your truck has it, it should)

frontrange
08-21-2010, 12:28 PM
There should be a banjo fitting somewhere abouts the fuelrail. You'd hook up a double banjo bolt into that spot to check pressure ! (not 100% if your truck has it, it should)

Ever tried to find a M8x1.0 banjo bolt? Now try to find an M8x1.0 in a double length. I'm sure they make them but how much time do you want to spend looking for one? Hell I can't even find the 8mm crush washers without searching all over the internet or going to the dealer.

TIMZTOY
08-21-2010, 03:20 PM
Ever tried to find a M8x1.0 banjo bolt? Now try to find an M8x1.0 in a double length. I'm sure they make them but how much time do you want to spend looking for one? Hell I can't even find the 8mm crush washers without searching all over the internet or going to the dealer.


I have one !! It comes in the master fuelinjection kit ! :cool:

frontrange
08-21-2010, 04:34 PM
I have one !! It comes in the master fuelinjection kit ! :cool:

Do you get douced with gasoline everytime using that type of setup? The port injected fuel systems I've worked on maintain high fuel rail pressure for a long time after you shut off the engine. The schrader valve is the way to test pressure as well as bleed the system down to open it without spraying fuel all over the place and risking a confligration.

Chris
08-21-2010, 04:40 PM
So if you want to come by my shop it shouldn't take more than 15 minutes to install one of these and test the injectors. If they test OK and the EGR isn't leaking, I'd say go ahead and drop the cabbage on new O2 sensors.

Thanks for the offer frontrange (nice screen name BTW)

I'm under the assumption the EGR is a sealed unit, right? The diaphragm shouldn't let air past or am I mistaken here? After replacing the intake I sprayed starting fluid to see if I had any leaks and if I spray anywhere near the EGR valve the rpm's increase considerably.

frontrange
08-21-2010, 05:36 PM
Sounds like you got a cracked EGR diaphram. It should be sealed but after enough miles they fall apart. That's your first problem, it sounds like yours is in pieces.

Chris
08-21-2010, 05:41 PM
Yes, sure does. Thanks for confirming that for me. It may be the key to the emissions failures. I'll check it out again and take it from there. Of course you've got me wondering about the injectors but first things first. :thumb:

frontrange
08-21-2010, 06:03 PM
Yeah I would still check the injectors just because I bought three different sets from three different sources and all of them were a mess when I bench tested them. I've never seen anything like that with Bosch or Rochester any other type of injector for that matter.

Now I suspect any Toyota injector (and I'm not a big fan of the rest of their FI system either as you may have noticed). My 2FE is a complete redo of the fuel delivery and a aftermarket ECU with a crank triggered ignition. I kept the Toyota injectors, but only because I had plenty and milling the hardware to use a Bosch was too much of a pain.

Chris
08-21-2010, 07:27 PM
I would like to follow-up after I deal with the emissions if that's good with you. Thanks again for your help.

frontrange
08-21-2010, 07:32 PM
Sure, no sweat. Good luck with the EGR.

PabloCruise
08-23-2010, 02:32 PM
Yeah I would still check the injectors just because I bought three different sets from three different sources and all of them were a mess when I bench tested them. I've never seen anything like that with Bosch or Rochester any other type of injector for that matter.

Now I suspect any Toyota injector (and I'm not a big fan of the rest of their FI system either as you may have noticed). My 2FE is a complete redo of the fuel delivery and a aftermarket ECU with a crank triggered ignition. I kept the Toyota injectors, but only because I had plenty and milling the hardware to use a Bosch was too much of a pain.

Do you have a build thread anywhere?
I have a 3FE but am interested in aftermarket ECU that fires injectors sequentailly vs. the gang firing the stock ECU does...

Hijack over!

frontrange
08-23-2010, 03:45 PM
No, no thread. I have to get this project done soon, so far all I have finished is the custom tank and fuel delivery, the custom rail setup and the Ford EDIS-6 conversion and the ECM completed and tested. I used a megasquirt controller. The engine still needs assembly, I only just got the 3D toolpath done and tested to eyebrow the cylinder walls to relieve the valves. Next I'm making a custom Hydraulic cam. Should be starting that soon.

You do know sequential fire will have zero impact on performance, right? All ECM's operate in bank fire mode once you are in the engine's powerband. Sequential operation is basically just a means to lean out the AFR during idle so you're not dumping unburned hydocarbons in to the atmosphere when stuck in traffic.

corsair23
08-23-2010, 04:51 PM
Christo has a set of 3FE injectors for sale...

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showthread.php?t=13707

PabloCruise
08-23-2010, 04:55 PM
You do know sequential fire will have zero impact on performance, right? All ECM's operate in bank fire mode once you are in the engine's powerband. Sequential operation is basically just a means to lean out the AFR during idle so you're not dumping unburned hydocarbons in to the atmosphere when stuck in traffic.

No, I did not know this.

Thank you.

I would still be interested in reading a build about your 3FE when you are finished.

Where are you located?

frontrange
08-23-2010, 05:35 PM
No, I did not know this.

Thank you.

I would still be interested in reading a build about your 3FE when you are finished.

Where are you located?

Just south of Monument CO.

I'll take some pics when it's all back together, but it's a 2FE, not a 3FE, in other words a 2F with a hydraulic roller cam and the 3FE induction + aftermarket ECM.

PabloCruise
08-24-2010, 01:19 PM
Just south of Monument CO.

I'll take some pics when it's all back together, but it's a 2FE, not a 3FE, in other words a 2F with a hydraulic roller cam and the 3FE induction + aftermarket ECM.

Got it. I would love to learn more about your build when you have time to post.

Esp. interested in how you produced a hydraulic cam, and got oil pressure to the lifters for this build!

frontrange
08-24-2010, 02:02 PM
I digitized a SBC cam lobe profile to apply it to the 2F centerline timing taken off of a stock 2F cam. I will cut it on my 4 axis CNC mill, chuck the roughed cam between centers in the lathe and grind it with my toolpost grinder acting as a cam follower by using an air cylinder in place of the lathe's crosslide acme screw.

To get oil to SBC lifters I plan on making an oil manifold that will sit behind the lifter galley plate.

Chris
08-31-2010, 10:48 AM
O 2 sensors tell the computer how lean or rich the exhaust stream is. So it effects too lean or too rich or just right(simple version). So if the O2 sensors are not working, it can lead to a lean condition which leads to NOX. If you have a Factory service manual and a old style VOM(swing meter style), you can check them out per the manual. If not and you do not have any idea of how many miles(but feel they could be a bunch) I would just replace them, it could also lead to better fuel ecomany.
Looking at your number you gave, it looks like you are running on the lean side of the fuel flow.
So If we look at those numbers, you need to make it run richer. So yes it could be injectors, but it could be the O2 sensors as well.
With similar number, I have seen good results with the O2 sensors. But testing them first before replacing is a wise choice.

But as the other suggest, the injectors or EGR could also effect NOX.

I thought I found the problem when finding my EGR diaphragm was leaking but it failed again with a new one. I think I'll just jump to 02 sensors as you suggested Robbie.

Thanks again.

Chris
09-01-2010, 05:06 PM
Not the O2 sensors either - failed the 5th time today. It doesn't make sense to me but a guy on 'Mud said his NOx dropped to acceptable levels with a new t-stat so I threw one of those in for the heck of it. I'll see what the Air Care tech has to say Friday. Injectors?

I have to say the trucks running fine these days despite high NOx. :p:

PabloCruise
09-01-2010, 05:27 PM
What is your timing set to?

PabloCruise
09-01-2010, 05:38 PM
Here's a possibility for you if you want to test the injectors. I while back I got annoyed with the lack of a standard pressure test port on the Toyota fuel rail, so I made a few of these:

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l116/scranage/DSCN1916.jpg

Haven't tried one out yet, but it's simple enough it should work. It replaces the OEM banjo bolt (on the right) for the hard line that goes to the cold start valve with a new one that has the standard Chevy test fitting. With this I can use my Kent-Moore to do an injector balance test without pulling the rail and injectors out.

So if you want to come by my shop it shouldn't take more than 15 minutes to install one of these and test the injectors. If they test OK and the EGR isn't leaking, I'd say go ahead and drop the cabbage on new O2 sensors.

Has anyone seen an OEM banjo bolt replacement that is threaded in the top for a small fuel gauge? I think there is room under the hood to run a fuel pressure gauge off the banjo bolt for the cold start injector. That way you could just open the hood and check fuel pressure right there.

Kind of like this bolt for Honda banjo bolts at the fuel filter:

http://www.russellperformance.com/mc/adapt_fit/img/640700_lg.jpg

Who knows, maybe this fits? Is the 3FE banjo bolt a 12mmx1.25? You would need a fuel pressure gauge w/ 1/8" NPT thread.

Air Randy
09-01-2010, 05:49 PM
Shoot a PM to RicardoJM on this site. There is an auto shop he uses in Englewood that works on old cruisers. They have their own emission testing gear so they can adjust it until it will pass, then they give it to you so you can go direct to the state testing station.

I've also heard (no first hand experience) that if you run a 50-50 mix of E85 and prem gas it will help you pass.

Chris
09-01-2010, 06:15 PM
What is your timing set to?

Factory specs, I've been told the Air Care tech like everything set to factory specs.

Shoot a PM to RicardoJM on this site. There is an auto shop he uses in Englewood that works on old cruisers. They have their own emission testing gear so they can adjust it until it will pass, then they give it to you so you can go direct to the state testing station.

I've also heard (no first hand experience) that if you run a 50-50 mix of E85 and prem gas it will help you pass.

I'll guess it's the shop on Evans, I see lots of cruisers there. I really can't afford to pay someone to troubleshoot this right now. Yes, that may have been the best approach on day 1 but I had no idea I was heading down the path I'm on.

There are numerous variations of the E85 solution including drug store isopropyl, Heet, etc. I'm hoping to get to the bottom rather than sidestep the actual problem. I figure I'll end up with a damned great running 3FE when I'm done if that ever happens.

I'll swap you my truck for the Gecko Randy! :D

RicardoJM
09-01-2010, 06:28 PM
Shoot a PM to RicardoJM on this site. There is an auto shop he uses in Englewood that works on old cruisers. They have their own emission testing gear so they can adjust it until it will pass, then they give it to you so you can go direct to the state testing station.

The shop is:
Colorado Car Clinic
5311 S Broadway, Littleton, CO.
Phone: 303-730-0055

Chris
09-01-2010, 06:36 PM
Thanks Ricardo, I'll see what Air Care Tech says first since that's free.

wesintl
09-01-2010, 07:08 PM
uh nevermind

Chris
09-01-2010, 07:30 PM
uh nevermind

Still under the $750 repair limit Wes. :D

wesintl
09-01-2010, 07:33 PM
gotcha :) good luck Chris. hope you get it figger'd out, kinda sounds like a stumper.

frontrange
09-01-2010, 08:25 PM
Good plan. If you are running too lean or have too advanced timing you are asking for trouble if you don't get this fixed right. As in cracked pistons kind of trouble.

There are numerous variations of the E85 solution including drug store isopropyl, Heet, etc. I'm hoping to get to the bottom rather than sidestep the actual problem. I figure I'll end up with a damned great running 3FE when I'm done if that ever happens.

frontrange
09-01-2010, 08:28 PM
The Toyota rail fuel delivery hole is M12x1.25, but it uses the pulse damper in place of a banjo bolt. The cold start injector banjo is M8x1.

Has anyone seen an OEM banjo bolt replacement that is threaded in the top for a small fuel gauge? I think there is room under the hood to run a fuel pressure gauge off the banjo bolt for the cold start injector. That way you could just open the hood and check fuel pressure right there.

Kind of like this bolt for Honda banjo bolts at the fuel filter:

http://www.russellperformance.com/mc/adapt_fit/img/640700_lg.jpg

Who knows, maybe this fits? Is the 3FE banjo bolt a 12mmx1.25? You would need a fuel pressure gauge w/ 1/8" NPT thread.

Art Volmer
09-01-2010, 08:52 PM
Hi Chris I like to see cat temps around 250 to 350 and the cat should raise in temp from the front to rear between 50 and 100 degrees if it is working properly. Good luck

Chris
09-01-2010, 10:05 PM
Thanks Art, IIRC there was something like 180 degree change front to rear but I don't trust my memory enough to say that's what Scott told me. I do recall his 130% comment though.

PabloCruise
09-02-2010, 11:33 AM
The Toyota rail fuel delivery hole is M12x1.25, but it uses the pulse damper in place of a banjo bolt. The cold start injector banjo is M8x1.

There is the damper at the inlet end and then the FPR on the outlet end, correct.

Too bad the cold start injector bolt is M8... I really want to get a fuel pressure gauge on my rail. I wonder if there is room on my rail to tap a hole.

Thanks for letting me play in your thread Chris!

Chris
09-07-2010, 08:55 PM
Quick update - Air Care Tech found:

1. A bad EGR solenoid. I guess when I found the bad EGR valve I stopped trouble-shooting. :o Didn't really matter, hardly changed the NOx reading when I replaced it.

2. It appear to be running lean - not sure how to resolve that yet.

3. Recommended going back to dual cats, :blah:

Scotty is warrantying my year old cat tomorrow. I really think that may be the problem but I claim total ignorance and frustration at this point.

If that doesn't fix it I have an appt at Colorado Car Clinic next week. I stopped in there and Dave (IIRC) was good. Not very surprised to see another "Land Crusher" outside his shop. :p:

frontrange
09-07-2010, 10:23 PM
Well I offered you a loaner set of injectors, or to do a quick test on yours, but go on with your plan. BTW, a bad cat has nothing to do with running lean.

If you are running lean at this point you should be checking your fuel rail pressure and injector flow rate. Actually that should have been step 1. I'm going away now and not coming back to this thread anymore.

:banghead:

PabloCruise
09-08-2010, 10:22 AM
Quick update - Air Care Tech found:

1. A bad EGR solenoid. I guess when I found the bad EGR valve I stopped trouble-shooting. :o Didn't really matter, hardly changed the NOx reading when I replaced it.

2. It appear to be running lean - not sure how to resolve that yet.

3. Recommended going back to dual cats, :blah:

Scotty is warrantying my year old cat tomorrow. I really think that may be the problem but I claim total ignorance and frustration at this point.

If that doesn't fix it I have an appt at Colorado Car Clinic next week. I stopped in there and Dave (IIRC) was good. Not very surprised to see another "Land Crusher" outside his shop. :p:

If you are running lean, and you already replaced O2 sensors, I would look at the injectors.
Upstream of injectors would be fuel flow (think pump and filter) and pressure (think fuel pressure regulator).
Have you checked fuel pressure?
How many miles are on your injector?
I think you can richen things up by tweaking the AFM.

Keep us posted!

Chris
09-08-2010, 10:30 AM
If you are running lean, and you already replaced O2 sensors, I would look at the injectors.
Upstream of injectors would be fuel flow (think pump and filter) and pressure (think fuel pressure regulator).
Have you checked fuel pressure?
How many miles are on your injector?
I think you can richen things up by tweaking the AFM.

Keep us posted!

Yeah, I'm waiting to see if the cat is why I'm failing emissions then I'll work on the lean condition. The FF, FP, FPR are fairly new but the injectors are unknown age and obviously suspect.

Chris
09-08-2010, 05:54 PM
The cat did it - NOx 4.2660/5.0 allowable.

PabloCruise
09-20-2010, 04:40 PM
That is cool that you fixed it.

Although I am not sure how much margin that is, passing at 4.266/5.0

Chris
09-20-2010, 08:24 PM
Not much margin at all but I passed. With the ever changing limits I guess I'll be running Chevy power when I go through a couple years from now.