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Dr. Schlegs
08-26-2010, 01:22 AM
Ok, I know the rule; 33's or less - mini. 35's or larger - Saginaw. Now I know there are the few people that have ventured out and march to the beat of a different drummer and have done 60 PS in a 40.

Now I'm just spit balling here, but what about putting 80 PS in a 40? (I looked on the web and didn't find anything). I figure if I am going to do a PS conversion I should consider all possible options. Hell people are putting 45's on 80 frames, mixing and matching axles, and dropping 350's in Volvos. Don't even get me started on Red Chili. :lmao:

I have not put a 60 and a 80 PS gearbox side by side (I have looked at various photos). Seems like the main differences would be the placement of the pitman arm, and the valve assembly. I assume the pitman could be clocked to a desired position. I figure the 80's PS gearbox would be stout in comparison to the 60's, as it is full time all wheel drive. 60 parts are getting harder to find and 80 parts are getting easier to find.

Again I'm just thinking out loud and wondering what people would see as possible barriers to a conversation of this nature, if any.

subzali
08-26-2010, 07:45 AM
I really like the end result of my FJ60 PS conversion, don't know really anything about the 80 series steering box, but I think there are a couple threads on MUD of people doing or at least thinking about that conversion as well...and the FJ60 box wasn't really hard to find. The steering column parts I got lucky with because timmbuck2 was parting out Uglibus, and the drag link stuff, if I were to do it again, would seriously consider getting a custom one made. I'm still thinking about getting an intermediate shaft custom made as well, with a better slip joint and smaller u-joints. And I would like to shorten my steering column (FJ55 steering column).

So what are all the pieces and parts (not just the steering box) that you are thinking of, and that might be hard to find?

wesintl
08-26-2010, 08:29 AM
60 and 80 are essentially the same. The 80 box might be slightly stouter but it's more about the style and removing the a linkage and the center arm with saginaw and 60/80/ scout boxes. I think it's more important to use strong pump like the saginaw vs toyota pump. :twocents:

frontrange
08-26-2010, 08:39 AM
I did an 80 box in my FJ40. If you searched the net you should have run across this on mud http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/240609-anyone-ever-put-fj80-steering-box-fj40.html

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l116/scranage/box_out1.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l116/scranage/box_in2.jpg

MDH33
08-26-2010, 08:54 AM
Ok, I know the rule; 33's or less - mini. 35's or larger - Saginaw. Now I know there are the few people that have ventured out and march to the beat of a different drummer and have done 60 PS in a 40.

Rule schmool... 34's and armstrong steering. :hill: :zilla:

Dr. Schlegs
08-26-2010, 09:45 AM
So what are all the pieces and parts (not just the steering box) that you are thinking of, and that might be hard to find?

Matt I have not really thought about the rest of the steering assembly. Here is a little more information.

9/72 FJ-40 Needs a Rag Joint -which I have a line on.

I plan on running 35's with a 4" OME system - I personally don't like the SOA conversation - It always seemed too involved and I have seen some done very poorly/unsafe.

I want to remove as many tie rods as I can from the 40. Way too many links and parts to fail.

I will use a Toyota PS Pump, as it will bolt straight to the engine block.

I think the hardest part would be piecing it together from the firewall to the Gearbox. Most likely will need to find a specialty shop to help fab up some linkage. 55's are too rare and I'm sure someone with a 55 is looking for the part.

Might end up replacing the knuckle housing to a 60 or a 6 shooter.

Air Randy
08-26-2010, 10:10 AM
You know you can still buy brand new rag joints right, from JTO?

You can go with 4" lift springs and you will hate yourself because of the lousy ride, both on and off road. If you do the SOA correctly (east to do it right) your rig will ride and handle better plus it will perform better off road.

If you do the SOA you should also do the front shackle reversal at the same time and flip your front & rear springs, this will give you 6" more wheel base. In the process you will also do U bolt flip and high steer, all things which will much improve your offroad capability.

Whether you do 4" lift or SOA you will have to rotate your rear pinion up due to the driveline angle and then have a dual cardan CV driveshaft built. Otherwise you will have vibration and be replacing rear U joints quite frequently. You will have to grind out the valleys on your front driveshaft yoke to keep it from binding and breaking at full droop unless you do a cut & turn on the front housing (the right way to do it).

IMHO either do a 2" lift and 33's or do a SOA if you want to go bigger.

As far as steering gears I'm sure you could mount one out of a Maserati with enough time, money and fabrication skills. The reason for the "tried & true" methods (mini truck & saginaw) are: They work well, are relatively easy modifications to perform, are relatively inexpensive and the parts are readily available almost any where.

If you get a 2F alternator bracket and move your alternator to the passenger side and get a Mark's Offroad PS pump bracket, you can also bolt a saginaw pump right up to the engine block. Whether you go mini truck, saginaw, 60/80 or whatever on the steering gear it's a good idea to go saginaw on the pump. They're inexpensive, they produce higher pressure (stronger power steering), are supposed to last much longer than the toyot units and they are readily available at any parts house/junk yard.

Dr. Schlegs
08-26-2010, 10:29 AM
Whether you do 4" lift or SOA you will have to rotate your rear pinion up due to the driveline angle and then have a dual cardan CV driveshaft built. Otherwise you will have vibration and be replacing rear U joints quite frequently. You will have to grind out the valleys on your front driveshaft yoke to keep it from binding and breaking at full droop unless you do a cut & turn on the front housing (the right way to do it). :eek: I didn't realize all that needed to be done for a 4" lift, but makes sense. I'm sure I have some of those issues already as the PO, just put extended shackles on it.

As far as steering gears I'm sure you could mount one out of a Maserati with enough time, money and fabrication skills. The reason for the "tried & true" methods (mini truck & saginaw) are: They work well, are relatively easy modifications to perform, are relatively inexpensive and the parts are readily available almost any where. I was wondering that I could do with a Lamborghini.:lmao: I know the tried and true methods, just wondering if there was a better mouse trap. I did read the 60PS conversation in TT back in the day and thought that was a nice set up. Just figured an 80 might be similar, and stronger. Again I want to explore all options to get the best results. Nothing has been cut or modified yet, just want to do it "right" the first time.

PabloCruise
08-26-2010, 10:46 AM
I really like the end result of my FJ60 PS conversion, don't know really anything about the 80 series steering box, but I think there are a couple threads on MUD of people doing or at least thinking about that conversion as well...and the FJ60 box wasn't really hard to find. The steering column parts I got lucky with because timmbuck2 was parting out Uglibus, and the drag link stuff, if I were to do it again, would seriously consider getting a custom one made. I'm still thinking about getting an intermediate shaft custom made as well, with a better slip joint and smaller u-joints. And I would like to shorten my steering column (FJ55 steering column).

So what are all the pieces and parts (not just the steering box) that you are thinking of, and that might be hard to find?

No need for custom drag link Matt, I found 70 series part #'s that work in the US for a very nice cost! Check my thread...

Matt and I are about the same height and I like the added length of the 55 column in my cab, gives me more leg room. The downside is it is harder to drive with my knee now... :doh:

Hulk
08-26-2010, 12:18 PM
You can go with 4" lift springs and you will hate yourself because of the lousy ride, both on and off road. If you do the SOA correctly (east to do it right) your rig will ride and handle better plus it will perform better off road.

Whether you do 4" lift or SOA you will have to rotate your rear pinion up due to the driveline angle and then have a dual cardan CV driveshaft built. Otherwise you will have vibration and be replacing rear U joints quite frequently. You will have to grind out the valleys on your front driveshaft yoke to keep it from binding and breaking at full droop unless you do a cut & turn on the front housing (the right way to do it).

IMHO either do a 2" lift and 33's or do a SOA if you want to go bigger.

Kevin, you should come drive my 40 for a day. Sprung under. 4" lift and 33" tires. Extended the back drive shaft but no double cardan CV needed. No grinding on the front shaft needed. Did not do a shackle reversal. Did put in some 4 degree shims in the front axle packs (cut and turn is better, as Randy says, but the shims work fine). Also, I have Saginaw PS, which is a great upgrade.

Air Randy
08-26-2010, 12:41 PM
Extended the back drive shaft but no double cardan CV needed. No grinding on the front shaft needed.

If you didn't rotate your pinion up to point at your TC and you are happy with the driveline angle (a little vibration), then no double cardan is needed.

If you did rotate the pinion up you can get by without a double cardan CV if you dont mind driveline vibration and reduced U joint life.

As far as the front yoke that depends on what year rig your driveshaft is out of. The older ones require minor grinding in the valleys to have enough clearance to not bind at full droop if the other wheel is stuffed.

If you never wheel your rig hard enough to cause that condition then it's probably not a concern.

Hulk
08-26-2010, 12:59 PM
If you did rotate the pinion up you can get by without a double cardan CV if you dont mind driveline vibration and reduced U joint life.

No rotation. Driveshaft and U-joins have been fine since 2001. Knock on wood.

If you never wheel your rig hard enough to cause that condition then it's probably not a concern.

Used to be my wheeler. Laid it on its side once. Also, broke a rear axle shaft. Since building the 80, I don't wheel my 40 as hard as I used to, though.

subzali
08-26-2010, 01:46 PM
Dr. Schlegs, have you read my and TJ's writeups on FJ60 power steering? They go through all the steps pretty well, in addition to the TT article...

Do you have a later model 2F block that will accept the FJ60 power steering pump? Or how do you know a Toyota pump will mount to your block?

TJ, I am running a 70 series drag link tube on my conversion currently, but it wasn't cheap and I haven't checked your thread in a while. I'll take a look at it and see what you've added. :thumb:

PabloCruise
08-26-2010, 05:29 PM
Kevin, you should come drive my 40 for a day. Sprung under. 4" lift and 33" tires. Extended the back drive shaft but no double cardan CV needed. No grinding on the front shaft needed. Did not do a shackle reversal. Did put in some 4 degree shims in the front axle packs (cut and turn is better, as Randy says, but the shims work fine). Also, I have Saginaw PS, which is a great upgrade.

My 4" SUA is similar to Matt's, 60 series PS vs. Sag.
I flipped my rear spring pack to gain 4" of wheel base.

I do not see any need to do a shackle reversal. Jim Chenoweth is not a fan of these either, as he has seen the front driveshaft pogo-stick into the t-case and effectively destroy the t-case in a shackle-reversal rig.

AxleIke
08-26-2010, 05:43 PM
Meh, never worry about steering again:

http://www.pscmotorsports.com/Toyota-Full-Hydraulic-Kit-w-DE-cylinder-NO-PUMP.html

THAT is a power steering conversion.

:D

Dr. Schlegs
08-26-2010, 05:45 PM
In way of the lift, I like the stance that FJBrady's 40 has. He has a 4" Skyjacker and a 1" body lift. I figure 4" would be good enough for me to fit 35s under it. I am not looking to lenghten the wheelbase. I would like to get an OME kit however as it is the shiznit. MAF has a 4" kit using 2.5" OME springs, and longer shackles and what not. I don't think OME has a 4" kit like Skyjacker does.

Dr. Schlegs
08-26-2010, 05:49 PM
Meh, never worry about steering again:

http://www.pscmotorsports.com/Toyota-Full-Hydraulic-Kit-w-DE-cylinder-NO-PUMP.html

THAT is a power steering conversion.

:D

When I do rear steer in the 80, this is the kit I will definitely be going with.:rolleyes:

Air Randy
08-26-2010, 06:54 PM
No rotation. Driveshaft and U-joins have been fine since 2001. Knock on wood.

If you didn't rotate the pinion up then you don't want/need a double cardan, a regular single u joint on each end shaft is actually the way to go.

nuclearlemon
08-26-2010, 07:44 PM
the nuclearlemon ran 4" skyjacker with extended shackles for years, no dc shaft required. did have to put 4degree shims in the front. i don't know anyone who required a dc shaft with the lift because the ujoint angles don't change. i loved the skyjacker springs, as did a few friends and they must've held up because i met a guy at cruise moab four or five years back (when we held it at that picky campground) that is still running the springs. i was number three to purchase the 4" skyjacker springs back in 91 or so. my buddy steve bought the first set made and my buddy lane bought the second set made.

i would not, however, run their shocks. i had they eye snap off one, and i know two others that had the eyes snap off. i did flip the rear springs for a bit more wheelbase (garners a couple inches) and a p.o. had already put a shackle reversal in. ran it with 35s for a while, but mainly 33s for better road (couldn't afford to do gears). i did have the front shaft extended a couple of inches a few years later. fenders were already cut in the rear from a p.o. bushwacker mod.

reference pics, stock with sagging springs, 2 1/2" kidney busters (rancho), 4" skyjackers, 4" skyjackers and nuclearlemon paint. 33" tires in all but stock

Air Randy
08-27-2010, 09:14 AM
I do not see any need to do a shackle reversal. Jim Chenoweth is not a fan of these either, as he has seen the front driveshaft pogo-stick into the t-case and effectively destroy the t-case in a shackle-reversal rig.

I never said reversed shackles were mandatory, but I recommend them based on my personal experience. They greatly improve the ride quality, improve front axle traction and reduce wheel hop.

I suppose if you hit a rock dead on with your diff at 20 mph it could break something. But at least in my case, with the proper length drive shaft with long travel splines I've never had an issue and it's been wheeled hard on pretty rough trails.

On MUD this is one of those Ford vs Chevy type discussions, lots of people with opinions on both sides of the arguement. I'm simply giving my opinion.

Uncle Ben
08-27-2010, 09:26 AM
My 4" SUA is similar to Matt's, 60 series PS vs. Sag.
I flipped my rear spring pack to gain 4" of wheel base.

I do not see any need to do a shackle reversal. Jim Chenoweth is not a fan of these either, as he has seen the front driveshaft pogo-stick into the t-case and effectively destroy the t-case in a shackle-reversal rig.

I agree with Randy big time! If I built another 40 a shackle reversal would be one of my first planned mods! To be honest if I was to pick up another 40 tomorrow and plan on moderate trail use I would Buy BDS 4" springs f&R 4" shackles for the rear and shackle reversal for the front. Just that alone would improve the ride and handling of the vehicle 10 fold! Throw on some 33's and a rear Lockright and the vehicle can do 80+% of the trails out there and I could drive it anywhere all 4 seasons! And yes I would flip the rear spring pack!

Uncle Ben
08-27-2010, 09:30 AM
the nuclearlemon ran 4" skyjacker with extended shackles for years, no dc shaft required. did have to put 4degree shims in the front. i don't know anyone who required a dc shaft with the lift because the ujoint angles don't change. i loved the skyjacker springs, as did a few friends and they must've held up because i met a guy at cruise moab four or five years back (when we held it at that picky campground) that is still running the springs. i was number three to purchase the 4" skyjacker springs back in 91 or so. my buddy steve bought the first set made and my buddy lane bought the second set made.

i would not, however, run their shocks. i had they eye snap off one, and i know two others that had the eyes snap off. i did flip the rear springs for a bit more wheelbase (garners a couple inches) and a p.o. had already put a shackle reversal in. ran it with 35s for a while, but mainly 33s for better road (couldn't afford to do gears). i did have the front shaft extended a couple of inches a few years later. fenders were already cut in the rear from a p.o. bushwacker mod.

reference pics, stock with sagging springs, 2 1/2" kidney busters (rancho), 4" skyjackers, 4" skyjackers and nuclearlemon paint. 33" tires in all but stock

I loved the Skyjacker springs ride as well but the company will not stand behind thier product so I will not ever buy from them again! Only customer service I got was brochures with Jehovah Witness booklets from them.... :rant:

Air Randy
08-27-2010, 09:40 AM
i don't know anyone who required a dc shaft with the lift because the ujoint angles don't change.

It's impossible to effectively raise the frame (or lower the axle if you prefer) 4" and not also increase the angles on the U joints unless you somehow lower the TC at the same time. That said, as long as you stay within the working range of the yoke/u joint from full stuff to full droop you can run it that way.

To be clear, a DC shaft is recommended ONLY when you rotate your rear diff up so the pinion points straight at the TC and the angle on the rear u joint is 0 degrees. I know, 0 on the rear and less angle on the front would seem to be a good thing. But go read any technical discussion on the topic by numerous drivetrain experts and they are unanimous in their recommendation. Apparently, when your diff is not rotated and you have angles on both top and bottom u joints, they offset each other since every time the u joints rotate they move the DS slightly off center. When there is 0 angle on the bottom joint (pinion rotated) the top of the DS moves off center while the bottom one does not, thus you lose the offset and get the same effect as an out of balance driveshaft on the top of the shaft. Over time, depending on severity, this can reduce the life of the u joint and increase the wear on the output shaft of the TC.

I drove mine like this for awhile and it worked OK but I could feel some vibration at hwy speed. If the slip splines on your shaft are worn you'll probably feel it more. Since I needed to get my DS lengthened anyways I took it up to Rocky Mtn Driveline. They looked at the setup and agreed DC was the right way to go. They lengthened my stock DS and added the DC joints on top for $200, so it wasn't much more than just getting it lengthened. I now have zero vibration.

If you keep your pinion in the stock location you DO NOT want a DC shaft as it will have the opposite effect and cause vibration.

PabloCruise
08-27-2010, 09:49 AM
Only customer service I got was brochures with Jehovah Witness booklets from them.... :rant:

Are you kidding??? Too funny... :lmao:

AxleIke
08-27-2010, 09:49 AM
For those that are curious:

When one lifts a truck, with regard to drive shaft joints, there is an easy way to figure it out.

With a single cardan style, which is just your standard shaft with u joints at each end, all that matters is that the angles at each end are the same. To briefly bore you, angular velocity must be conserved throughout a spinning system. In the case of angled shafts, like a drive line with single cardan style joints, angles cancel out. Thus, if you have a 25 degree angle on your first joint, you MUST have a 25 degree angle on the second joint, in the opposite direction. This will conserve angular velocity as it is a vector function.

If you lift the rig, and the angles change the SAME amount, then you will be fine. If they are different angles, say 25 and 15, then you need axle shims or a cut/turn for the front.

The double cardan, or CV joint, is nice, because it does exactly what the name implies, constant velocity. Angular velocity is conserved through a double cardan joint, which means that you don't need a second joint to cancel the angle out somewhere else down the line.

Since driveshafts have a second joint, with a CV jointed driveshaft, you must point the pinion at the transfercase so there is an angle of 0deg in the joint. Actually, with leaf springs, you generally want to point the pinion down about a degree or two to accommodate axle wrap when under load.

Both systems work quite well. IMO, the CV style is a better way to go, simply because you get to rotate the pinion up, which gives you more ground clearance, and gets the pinion up higher, allowing for less chance of a rock contacting it and trashing it.

I know this is all probably yesterday's news to most, but I figured I'd throw it in, in case someone was reading this down the road and had no idea what the reasons were.

Dr. Schlegs
08-27-2010, 10:52 AM
This is all great information, and I very much appreciate it. I see this shackle reversal debate has the same fervor, as that of the David Lee Roth vs. Sammy Hagar debate.

Is there any other pearls of wisdom people wish to impart on the 80 PS in a 40?

Uncle Ben
08-27-2010, 10:58 AM
This is all great information, and I very much appreciate it. I see this shackle reversal debate has the same fervor, as that of the David Lee Roth vs. Sammy Hagar debate.

Is there any other pearls of wisdom people wish to impart on the 80 PS in a 40?

Instead of bench wheeling you could do it then you would be an expert!

Air Randy
08-27-2010, 11:03 AM
Instead of bench wheeling you could do it then you would be an expert!

:lmao::lmao::lmao: leave it to UB to set the world right:thumb:

Air Randy
08-27-2010, 11:16 AM
I think it is possible to get a decent ride with 4" lift springs, depending on manufacturer, and shackle angle will also be critical for a good ride. Any time you have a spring that is thick enough and arched enough to hold the rig 4" higher in the air, it stands to reason it is going to be a much stiffer spring and will not compress as easily or droop as much, so overall suspension travel is reduced. Stills works Ok though, just not as much travel and a stiffer ride.

SOA, if done properly, allows you to use a soft spring with more up/down travel/flex while giving an overall smoother ride. It also gets your pinions up out of the way and less prone to being a rock magnet.

However, to do it properly requires a whole lot more work and expense. The improvements in ride, handling and wheeling ability are there but are only incremental. Thousands have done the std 4" lift and are happy with it. In the end you need to decide how you will drive and wheel the rig, then decide how much money and effort you want to put into it.

Dr. Schlegs
08-27-2010, 11:26 AM
Instead of bench wheeling you could do it then you would be an expert!

I wheel, I just yield to authority. It takes too long to reach the point of being a sage like you and Randy. I want to build it once, the right way. :)

Air Randy
08-27-2010, 11:27 AM
Is there any other pearls of wisdom people wish to impart on the 80 PS in a 40?

Stay out of this, were having a fun debate. Besides, it'll be years before you get your 40 running much less having to worry about being able to steer it. :D

Dr. Schlegs
08-27-2010, 11:28 AM
Yes, Sir.:o

Air Randy
08-27-2010, 11:29 AM
I do not see any need to do a shackle reversal. Jim Chenoweth is not a fan of these either, as he has seen the front driveshaft pogo-stick into the t-case and effectively destroy the t-case in a shackle-reversal rig.

Just for the record, I think all of the Gen 1 and Gen 2 4Runners and mini-trucks with front leaf spring suspension came from the factory with shackles at the rear of the springs. I don't think they have an issue with pogo sticking and breaking TC's.

AxleIke
08-27-2010, 11:42 AM
Some like the shackles up front because as the wheel arcs, it wants to arc forward, and thus, when you are climbing a rock, the wheel is forced into the rock, aiding traction.

However, the shackles are then in a position to get beat on the rocks, and can get jammed up against the rocks, preventing the spring from moving as it is supposed to, and potentially damaging the spring.

I've never, ever heard of this "pogo/TC damage" thing occurring on any truck that has a proper drive shaft. Obviously, if you do suspension mods, and do not get your driveshaft modified if needed, that is your own fault. Long splines are needed for long travel.

That being said, I have no opinion on the matter other than, if you can afford to, get rid of leaf springs.

AxleIke
08-27-2010, 11:43 AM
Just for the record, I think all of the Gen 1 and Gen 2 4Runners and mini-trucks with front leaf spring suspension came from the factory with shackles at the rear of the springs. I don't think they have an issue with pogo sticking and breaking TC's.

Gen 3 trucks, and Gen 1 4runners. Only for 2 years of the 4 runner as well.

Then we got the beloved IFS.

AxleIke
08-27-2010, 11:45 AM
Instead of bench wheeling you could do it then you would be an expert!

Dang. When I bench wheel, I get to be a pro rock racer.

Forcing me to go out in the real world is way less cool, and leaves me on a budget still. That's no fun.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

FJBRADY
08-27-2010, 11:48 AM
I like the stance that FJBrady's 40 has.

This was my favorite part of the whole thread. :drumsticks:

Instead of bench wheeling you could do it then you would be an expert!

Good point

Stay out of this, were having a fun debate. Besides, it'll be years before you get your 40 running much less having to worry about being able to steer it. :D

:lmao:

PabloCruise
08-27-2010, 03:40 PM
Is there any other pearls of wisdom people wish to impart on the 80 PS in a 40?

Yes, set up the stereo so you can listen to both types of Van Halen; David and Sammy...

(Flashback to the Blues Brothers when they show up at Bob's Country Bunker and the waitress says "We got both kinds of music; country AND western!")

PabloCruise
08-27-2010, 03:41 PM
Just for the record, I think all of the Gen 1 and Gen 2 4Runners and mini-trucks with front leaf spring suspension came from the factory with shackles at the rear of the springs. I don't think they have an issue with pogo sticking and breaking TC's.

I think you are correct!