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View Full Version : broke 2 wheel studs....


nakman
09-26-2010, 10:17 PM
I'm guessing a tire shop ran these down to 150 pounds or something... all 5 were a real bear to break free with the OEM tire iron.. I also think the angle of the iron relative to the stud may have contributed, but wouldn't have been as big of a deal if the lugs weren't so dang tight. I dunno.. what's odd is they broke free, went about a half a turn, then got tighter, not looser...

I got the spare on, but with only 3 out of 5 I called AAA... especially since they were right next to each other. Driving it down the street tomorrow AM though to a Chevy dealer here in Gunnison.. hope they have metric sockets!

nakman
09-26-2010, 10:19 PM
what's interesting is the one that blew has a date of 2000... the other tires, including the spare, are all 2006. I don't get it.. shame on me for not checking but they are all the same brand, same wear, look every bit like a matching set.

corsair23
09-27-2010, 12:18 AM
Bummer Tim :( - Glad it wasn't worse with the blow out!

You hear stories about tire stores selling old tires in with a set to dump them. I'm guessing the PO didn't rotate in the original spare with a new set of tires given the rig is a '99 so I'd be guessing a not so up and up tire dealer stuck on an old tire :(

60wag
09-27-2010, 07:30 AM
Do you know what the pressure was in the tire that failed? Did it chew up the rim? Good to see it was a rear tire and not a front one.

RicardoJM
09-27-2010, 08:00 AM
Looks like no one was hurt and everything is ok. Hmmm - that is interesting. I took the UZJ100 (a month or so ago) in to have the tire rotated and they snapped a stud. It was a bit inconvenient as it occurred at the end of the day and the shop needed the truck for a day to replace it.

Jacket
09-27-2010, 10:03 AM
That sucks on multiple levels.

Maybe there was a previous blow/flat, and a PO replaced just that tire, and then some how it worked its way into a 5 tire rotation? I guess you can't leave out even the most innocuous of things when baselining a new rig.

So did you wheel the 100? :cool:

DaveInDenver
09-27-2010, 10:08 AM
Yikes!

Man, I'd be worried to the point that I'd probably replace all 20 studs. It would bug me until I did.

Whoever thought 5 lugs was better than 6 at Toyota should have to replace these for you. Not that a few percent less load on each can solve a numbnut overtorquing, but losing two of 6 would worry me less.

nakman
09-27-2010, 10:30 AM
I agree Dave, if we had 4 out of 6 we may have tried to drive home.. I at least would have driven to Gunny instead of wait 3.5 hours for a tow truck... :(


So it's torn down at a tire & service shop, guy has studs on order but can't get them until tomorrow. I have called virtually everywhere and have only managed to find 4 in Montrose at the Toyota dealer.. I bought them, along with 4 new lug nuts, also all they had. Some friends of ours are driving home from Ouray today (they stayed an extra night) and we're hoping they can scoop them up for us, but they haven't called back yet. If it goes another 30 minutes or so we may just rent a car... then I'd drive down to Montrose to get the studs, then back to Gunny so Michele can take the kids home.. we both had to call in today but she needs to get back in a big way.

nakman
09-27-2010, 12:07 PM
All is on track with the lug delivery.. hoping to be on the road this afternoon. Fingers are crossed!

corsair23
09-27-2010, 01:22 PM
Good luck and drive safely!!

Hulk
09-27-2010, 01:25 PM
Tell Michelle that I like her old school pictures of your repairs. :) They look like 1965 for sure.

Red_Chili
09-27-2010, 01:33 PM
I found good quality lug studs at Carquest. In Wheatland Wyo no less. Far better than Toyota OEM. Not their strongest suit.

nakman
09-27-2010, 03:30 PM
Alright here we go... all buttoned up and reading 40psi on all 4 corners. Looking forward to an uneventful 4 hour journey..

wesintl
09-27-2010, 03:46 PM
on a positive note you'll miss the stop and go traffic from grant to conifer.

nakman
09-27-2010, 08:14 PM
Yeah wasn't much traffic at all! made it back.. :)

farnhamstj
09-27-2010, 08:29 PM
Bummer about the studs. I've yet to break one. but I will get some spares. They are larger than ones found on other toyotas. I use a 4 way metric tire wrench. I've found the 3 extra sizes to be pretty useful on trail.

nakman
08-08-2011, 11:12 AM
I broke 4 more studs yesterday. The ones on the wheel that had the studs replaced last year are all still fine, but now I've moved to the driver's side, 2 in the back and 2 in front.

This is the latest chapter in my drama of trying to isolate and remove tire vibration. My Dick Cepek FC2's have never been completely smooth... they were pretty tolerable at first install, but I wanted them better so took it back to Discount for rotating/rebalancing last week. That made it worse- so took it back to them again on Thursday. Guy spent a long time on them, said he got each one to zero.. well no change. So then I'm wondering maybe it's a wheel bearing, upon inspection the PS front is actually a little loose I could get it to klunk if I shook the tire pretty good. So Saturday I tear it down just to the inner nut, give it about a 1/8 turn then button it back up. We then drive to the Rockies' game and it's even worse than before. So ok, must be the tire, the loose wheel bearing was helping compensate, but I took that away now I feel more tire?

So yesterday I go borrow some old bald tires mounted to LX470 rims from Texas Chris, they're round and balanced, figure if that makes the vibration go away then I've isolated this to the Dick Cepeks.. well about halfway off on the last lug I feel it get tight, then all these memories of last year start flooding back.. :mad: took me 1.5 hours to remove that back tire. What's worse is I had 4 off, but put them back on to take the load off this pesky 5th, and another one gets buggered up and ended up seizing on there worse than the first one that's stuck. Got a lot of upper body work in yesterday, and I'm out of WD-40. I'm using my "X" lug wrench for this too- no side load.

So I move to the front and wouldn't you know it, the side I didn't mess with yesterday also has two lug nuts seize. On both of them, I barely broke them free before I felt them tighten up again.. so wtf, it can't be my wrench, angle, technique.. these are just bad components.

Here are my theories (please feel free to challenge)

- Repeated over-torquing by tire shops is bad. I need to be more vocal about having them stop at 80, 85, don't run them down with the gun anymore. Maybe I'll print the FSM page and hand it to them? Or put stickers on the rims..

- Once over-torqued, it's just a matter of time before the right combination of stretched lug and stretched stud mate together in eternal bond.

- 6 is better than 5! Even if they are bigger... :rant:



Sure hope the Discount guy didn't crank on them a little more thinking that's going to improve balance or something, or out of spite for seeing my truck in there again a second day in a row. I'd have to think they're above that.. right? My plan is once I get my new studs installed (on order from Napa, will be in later today) and new lug nuts installed (on order from Napa, will be in tomorrow) I go back to Discount and give them one more chance to get the Cepeks to balance.. if they can't then we need to talk about a different set of tires. too bad my front brakes are all good, sure would be an opportune time to swap rotors. :rolleyes:

farnhamstj
08-08-2011, 12:21 PM
I broke one at Camp Hale. Or at least noticed it after that. In the front PS. It it the first I've broken and the truck is at 220,000k. I ordered a few spares. They are the same front and rear. Exciting part about the front ones for those that are interested; You need to remove the drive plate, hub, remove the disk brake in order to replace them. I'm getting good at removing cone washers. I remember my first cone washer removal thinking "I'll never get these off." Now I have mad skills.
5 is not better than 6, I agree.

Uncle Ben
08-08-2011, 12:30 PM
I broke 4 more studs yesterday. The ones on the wheel that had the studs replaced last year are all still fine, but now I've moved to the driver's side, 2 in the back and 2 in front.

This is the latest chapter in my drama of trying to isolate and remove tire vibration. My Dick Cepek FC2's have never been completely smooth... they were pretty tolerable at first install, but I wanted them better so took it back to Discount for rotating/rebalancing last week. That made it worse- so took it back to them again on Thursday. Guy spent a long time on them, said he got each one to zero.. well no change. So then I'm wondering maybe it's a wheel bearing, upon inspection the PS front is actually a little loose I could get it to klunk if I shook the tire pretty good. So Saturday I tear it down just to the inner nut, give it about a 1/8 turn then button it back up. We then drive to the Rockies' game and it's even worse than before. So ok, must be the tire, the loose wheel bearing was helping compensate, but I took that away now I feel more tire?

So yesterday I go borrow some old bald tires mounted to LX470 rims from Texas Chris, they're round and balanced, figure if that makes the vibration go away then I've isolated this to the Dick Cepeks.. well about halfway off on the last lug I feel it get tight, then all these memories of last year start flooding back.. :mad: took me 1.5 hours to remove that back tire. What's worse is I had 4 off, but put them back on to take the load off this pesky 5th, and another one gets buggered up and ended up seizing on there worse than the first one that's stuck. Got a lot of upper body work in yesterday, and I'm out of WD-40. I'm using my "X" lug wrench for this too- no side load.

So I move to the front and wouldn't you know it, the side I didn't mess with yesterday also has two lug nuts seize. On both of them, I barely broke them free before I felt them tighten up again.. so wtf, it can't be my wrench, angle, technique.. these are just bad components.

Here are my theories (please feel free to challenge)

- Repeated over-torquing by tire shops is bad. I need to be more vocal about having them stop at 80, 85, don't run them down with the gun anymore. Maybe I'll print the FSM page and hand it to them? Or put stickers on the rims..

- Once over-torqued, it's just a matter of time before the right combination of stretched lug and stretched stud mate together in eternal bond.

- 6 is better than 5! Even if they are bigger... :rant:



Sure hope the Discount guy didn't crank on them a little more thinking that's going to improve balance or something, or out of spite for seeing my truck in there again a second day in a row. I'd have to think they're above that.. right? My plan is once I get my new studs installed (on order from Napa, will be in later today) and new lug nuts installed (on order from Napa, will be in tomorrow) I go back to Discount and give them one more chance to get the Cepeks to balance.. if they can't then we need to talk about a different set of tires. too bad my front brakes are all good, sure would be an opportune time to swap rotors. :rolleyes:


Over torquing in not your problem. 5 to 10 lbs of over torque (beyond spec) will not distort the treads on that large of studs. The lateral loading when going up a curvy mountain road will far exceed 5-10#'s over torque. In fact it's not uncommon for Torque wrenches to be +/- 5#'s. So unless you've had your T-wrench professionally calibrated chances are you already under/over torque! While Service manuals are a must have they are still calculated guidelines when it comes to specs such as torque. Since the author has absolutely no idea or control over the end user many specs have error allowances figured in.
You need to use anti-seize on the tread! WD-40 does not last and in fact is somewhat water soluble. Over anti-seizing can be an issue too because it can seal the treads and cause false torque loading because of air compression. I would replace all studs and lug nuts personally! Just swapping the stud and using the damaged lug is like putting a new chain on worn out sprockets! :twocents:

nakman
08-08-2011, 01:45 PM
Over torquing in not your problem. 5 to 10 lbs of over torque (beyond spec) will not distort the treads on that large of studs. The lateral loading when going up a curvy mountain road will far exceed 5-10#'s over torque. In fact it's not uncommon for Torque wrenches to be +/- 5#'s. So unless you've had your T-wrench professionally calibrated chances are you already under/over torque! While Service manuals are a must have they are still calculated guidelines when it comes to specs such as torque. Since the author has absolutely no idea or control over the end user many specs have error allowances figured in.
You need to use anti-seize on the tread! WD-40 does not last and in fact is somewhat water soluble. Over anti-seizing can be an issue too because it can seal the treads and cause false torque loading because of air compression. I would replace all studs and lug nuts personally! Just swapping the stud and using the damaged lug is like putting a new chain on worn out sprockets! :twocents:

I agree with you on the torque, and see your point on actual load vs. what the wrench does. I still gotta wonder what gorilla worked on this truck, that's 6 out of 20 that's I've broken now. if not over-torquing, what else could cause that? So in my quest today, it turns out this shop down in Golden actually stocks these studs... pretty cool guys down there. But huh, they see more 100's than anyone for maintenance and seemed to know right where they were on the parts shelf.. I'm calling that a testament to the 5 vs. 6 engineering decision. I still don't like it.

So I picked up 20, yes I'm getting all new lug nuts too. And yes, as long as I got it all apart, new front rotors, pads, repack the bearings... hoo boy.




:kevin:, one of our favorite mechanics specifically advises against Anti-Seize on lug nut threads, as I learned in my other "broken wheel stud" thread... http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showthread.php?t=3283&page=2&highlight=broken+wheel+stud

I've never had one come loose at 76 (the ones that are supposed to be that) as with UB not having one come loose @ 90. Other thing, Make sure the threads are clean. "They" (whoever that is) say never put any kind of lube on lug studs. Usually this ok. I use regular engine oil on mine. DON'T USE ANTISEIZE. For lack of a better tech explanation is makes the threads too slippery and the lug will snap before torque is reached. Ask me how I know - numerous occasions.

Toyotas used to come with a little on them from the factory. 1st service while torquing wheels 1 or 2 would always break. Different torque wrenches. Clean the a/s off of the studs and they would torque every time - no breaky.

I think i remember seeing roger brown do a comparison test in a lab supporting this. It used to be on his web site somewhere.

I'm a little torn on the matter, but I've also seen him take tires off, looked like he'd done it before.. I'll probably stay away. I figure all new bits oughta get me another 12 years of life, even more if I do more of tire swapping..

Uncle Ben
08-08-2011, 01:51 PM
So it turns out this shop down in Golden actually stocks these studs... pretty cool guys down there. But huh, they see more 100's than anyone for maintenance and seemed to know right where they were on the parts shelf.. I'm calling that a testament to the 5 vs. 6 engineering decision. I still don't like it.

So I picked up 20, yes I'm getting all new lug nuts too. And yes, as long as I got it all apart, new front rotors, pads, repack the bearings... hoo boy.




:kevin:, one of our favorite mechanics specifically advises against Anti-Seize on lug nut threads, as I learned in my other "broken wheel stud" thread... http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showthread.php?t=3283&page=2&highlight=broken+wheel+stud



I'm a little torn on the matter, but I've also seen him take tires off, looked like he'd done it before.. I'll probably stay away. I figure all new bits oughta get me another 12 years of life, even more if I do more of tire swapping..


Good back reference! Any advice from Ben or BVB should be taken as law! I have extensive training but BVB's team have forgotten more than I will EVER know! :bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:BVB

TIMZTOY
08-08-2011, 02:00 PM
There is actually a product just for tourqing. It might be for engine assembly and a lock tight brand, but Im sure there's actually a antisieze version. I saw it on tv they tested with 1 torque wrench and a gauge. They set the wrench to a number. Then tightened a nut or stud (don't remember) till the wrench clicked. And the actual #'s On the gauge were all over the place. They tested everything from plain oil, to lock tight , to assembly lube, anti sieze. And the only thing that actually tested to what the wrench was set to was the special torque lube. (don't know it's name)

Personally I wouldnt care if mine broke. As long as there was at liest 2 holding the wheel on ( and not next to each other) and the 5 studes are stronger than the 6 because there much thicker. Working at yota I've hardy ever seen broke Studs, there just not a common issue. So I'd say PO.

And also just about every shop's rules are to torque with a torque wrench. Id say only about 20% of mechanics actually do it. And about 90% of shops never inforce it. And the "torque sticks" they use are crap. They say 80 lbs but ive never seen one actualy do it at it's spec. (I've measured w/ my wrench).

My opinion
Replace them, don't replace them. Personal opinion. Check your torque once and a while (never hurts, stuff comes loose) if your takin one hub apart to replace 1 or 2 studs then replace all on that wheel since your in there. Freak out about the other wheels , I wouldn't till they break! The only way I've seen all 5 break is not even tighting them and the wheel comes off then your fired. No discussion

nakman
08-08-2011, 02:01 PM
I broke one at Camp Hale. Or at least noticed it after that. In the front PS. It it the first I've broken and the truck is at 220,000k. I ordered a few spares. They are the same front and rear. Exciting part about the front ones for those that are interested; You need to remove the drive plate, hub, remove the disk brake in order to replace them. I'm getting good at removing cone washers. I remember my first cone washer removal thinking "I'll never get these off." Now I have mad skills.
5 is not better than 6, I agree.

Whoa, so were you driving around on 4? for how long?

nuclearlemon
08-08-2011, 02:02 PM
i stopped using antiseize when i left the midwest. dont' have to worry about them rusting on out here, plus, we maintain our vehicles alot, so that shouldn't be an issue. but the salt in the midwest and low maintenance can make life a living hell without antiseize.

subzali
08-08-2011, 02:25 PM
Whoa, so were you driving around on 4? for how long?

I broke one on my red truck a few years back, drove with 4 out of 5 for a couple weeks until I could order in the new one and make time to replace it. NBD.

Why does the Tacoma have 6 lugs when the higher hp, higher torque Tundra/Sequoia have 5 lugs? :confused:

Uncle Ben
08-08-2011, 02:42 PM
I broke one on my red truck a few years back, drove with 4 out of 5 for a couple weeks until I could order in the new one and make time to replace it. NBD.

Why does the Tacoma have 6 lugs when the higher hp, higher torque Tundra/Sequoia have 5 lugs? :confused:

You're an engineer....that question surprises me! What would take a higher lateral load....6 12mm fasteners (72 mm combined area) in a 5.5" circle or 5 14mm fasteners (70mm combined area) in a 5.9" circle?

subzali
08-08-2011, 03:51 PM
Well I know why from that perspective and also from the perspective of optimizing materials and production processes. But why, then, keep the 6 lug design on the Tacomas?

BTW I like your new AxleIke quote :p:

Uncle Ben
08-08-2011, 03:54 PM
BTW I like your new AxleIke quote :p:

:p:

Uncle Ben
08-08-2011, 04:15 PM
Well I know why from that perspective and also from the perspective of optimizing materials and production processes. But why, then, keep the 6 lug design on the Tacomas?



What I have problem with in Toyota's recent engineering is the Tundra. Why is it that when Toy finally steps into the competitive work truck market they begin the "overbuilt" standard that has placed them so high in the past but then they fall short. The biggest example I'll use is the awesome 10.5 ring geared rear diff found in the 5.7 vehicles. They did add massive 36 spine axles but they again stayed with the 5x 150 bolt pattern AND use semi float design. WTF? :confused:

nakman
08-28-2011, 04:16 PM
I thought this was interesting, stumbled on this thread today and found some math in favor of the 5 vs. 6 decision:

Quick little writeup on changing a broken lug. I had a lug nut `freeze' on me one day a few weeks back. For the life of me I could not get this lug nut off. I eventually had to go have it broken off `professionally.' I am of the assumption from that experience that dirt and/or other material mysteriously found their way into my lug nut during a flat tire change.

The 100 series' lugs are 14mm and though only 5 lugs are present, it represents almost 12% increase in total cross-sectional lug area than the 6 lugs on an 80 series. No rhetoric there, but let's just say that 14mm lug is a tough job to break.

from http://forum.ih8mud.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=783693


Scott curious where you got that logic? I do feel a little more reassured. And will also attest to how strong they are, I've broken 6 of them now :o

subzali
08-28-2011, 05:07 PM
What I have problem with in Toyota's recent engineering is the Tundra. Why is it that when Toy finally steps into the competitive work truck market they begin the "overbuilt" standard that has placed them so high in the past but then they fall short. The biggest example I'll use is the awesome 10.5 ring geared rear diff found in the 5.7 vehicles. They did add massive 36 spine axles but they again stayed with the 5x 150 bolt pattern AND use semi float design. WTF? :confused:

To add:
-Looks like they got the brakes right this time compared to the 1st gen :rolleyes:
-But they didn't get the tailgate right (have heard some reports of folding tailgates with surprisingly little amounts of weight)
-They figured out that even with a 4 door Tacoma people wanted a 6 or 6.5 foot bed, but that discovery didn't transfer over to the Tundra :rolleyes: