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satchel
11-01-2010, 07:23 PM
I need the collective help here to solve my steering issues.

I've done a lot of upgrades to my truck recently, including the 5.3 motor swap and 3 inch OME lift. After all this work it would want to steer slightly to the left when I accelerate and come back to the right when letting off the gas pedal.

Marco and I threw in an aussie locker and 4.11 diff in the rear this weekend and now I have a vibration when letting off the power from the diff that I didn't have with my 3.73 diff, and the worst part is that my truck flies to the left hard when I accelerate now. It magnified the previous steering problem by at least 10.

My caster angle is set at around 3+ degrees, so I can't figure out what could be the problem. One of my thoughts is that when placing the tcase into the truck and welding it in, that the tcase pinion may be left or right in relation to the frame from where the diff pinion is making it somewhat of a diagonal angle to the diff. If it is I can't see it, but I'm thinking that under power it may be trying to pull the rear diff left or right thus making the whole rear axle housing move diagonal and make the rear want to drive off to the right or left a little. Almost like driving in crab mode if you know what that means.

Any thoughts on what it could be or things to try would be helpful.

satchel
11-01-2010, 07:26 PM
Also, I've changed out pretty much everything on the front end, all new TRE's and bushings and such, and did an axle rebuild.

TIMZTOY
11-01-2010, 08:16 PM
my guess... axle wrap !!! "caused by springs that are too soft fo the amount of power going to the ground " get a anti wrap bar, it should fix just about all of your issues

satchel
11-01-2010, 08:37 PM
I'm thinking along those lines as well but 2 things are keeping me from thinking it is axle wrap or any other movement in the rear axle. First, Marco has the same setup and his doesn't do what mine is. Second, I don't understand why it would become worse with the locker. At the same time, all I changed was the locker so that pretty much means it's got to be something in the rear doing it, it certainly made it worse anyway.

subzali
11-02-2010, 07:49 AM
Have you checked your toe-in on your alignment? Maybe that's not set properly...

TIMZTOY
11-02-2010, 08:13 AM
Defentlly axle wrap because with out a locker your only sending power to one wheel. With a locker it's both. And juat because he has the "same set up" he does have a different right foot and a diffrent frame. Stress spots & week spots between frames. Also problly has diffrent tires as well. Resulting I. Different contact patch in the tires and grip caracteristics.

satchel
11-02-2010, 08:58 AM
Yes, I checked the toe in and all is good there. Might look into an anti wrap bar. Thanks for the suggestions.

nakman
11-02-2010, 09:08 AM
Just to clarify... this is on a 60?

rover67
11-02-2010, 09:12 AM
Defentlly axle wrap because with out a locker your only sending power to one wheel. With a locker it's both. And juat because he has the "same set up" he does have a different right foot and a diffrent frame. Stress spots & week spots between frames. Also problly has diffrent tires as well. Resulting I. Different contact patch in the tires and grip caracteristics.

Aussie lockers only power one wheel initially at least. Also, I am not too sure it is axle wrap since they are OME Heavies and the truck is sprung under. Those springs are pretty stiff.

60wag
11-02-2010, 09:53 AM
It might be worth having an alignment shop measure it to see how square the rear axle is to the front axle. The number you're looking for is the thrust angle. Ask the shop if they measure that angle before having them do the work.

http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm

Air Randy
11-02-2010, 10:05 AM
Based on the work you've done I'm going to assume all of the front end components are in good shape, including your leaf spring bushings. Even if they are new, you have to make sure they are the right size and don't let the thru bolt have any slop. Also make sure your u bolts are tight.

It doesn't sound like axle wrap to me, but it definitely sounds like torque steer.

On my SOA 40, under hard acceleration, it leaps to the left until you shift or let off the gas, then it it shifts back to the right until you hit the gas again, then it leaps back to the left again. Thats with a 2F, with your 5.3 you're putting out a lot more HP which probably makes it even worse.

I do have a trac bar so I know it's not axle wrap on mine. Also, on leaf spring vehicles, when you increase the ride height and/or add softer springs you increase the odds of changing the suspension geometry. When you accelerate the entire body/frame has a tendency to rotate in a clockwise manner (viewed sitting in the drivers seat) because of the engine torque being transferred. Taller suspension components have more leverage and typically give you more flex. As the weight shifts towards the passenger side that spring will flatten (lengthen) and the drivers side will raise (shorten) which has the effect of turning the solid axle ever so slightly towards the drivers direction. Thus the pull to the left. Thats why it is important you have no slop in your spring bushings. This suspension shift is made worse by the torque steer caused by the locker. The torque steer is one of the unfortunate effects of the lunchbox style lockers.

I have another rig with a Detroit Locker in the rear and the torque steer is present but virtually nil with that unit. With an ARB unit there is zero torque steer when it's unlocked, but the downside is the higher cost for the Detroit or ARB.

If you can add a sway bar to your suspension it will help reduce some of the body rotation but you won't get rid of the torque steer completely unless you change lockers.

subzali
11-02-2010, 12:04 PM
Strange that Marco doesn't have that problem, though, seeing as he has a V8 in his truck too. Did you drive Marco's truck to make sure he's not "not-feeling" something you feel? Or that he's not lying to you? :p:

satchel
11-02-2010, 12:49 PM
Yes, it is a 62, sorry for not clarifying.

I thought the thrust angle would cause it to move one way or another all the time, not just under acceleration. Whatever the issue is, keep in mind that sitting still, or coasting I should say, all is fine. It only is an issue when power is applied to the rear wheels.

I have driven his and I didn't notice it, but he has ARB lockers instead of the Aussie I have, so maybe he would experience it if he did. He said he used to have aussie in the back though, and there's no way he wouldn't have noticed it. By pulling the steering wheel, I mean the steering wheel is at the 3 o clock position when accelerating to overcome the pull.

All bushings are new. The lift was just put on about 2 months ago.

I rechecked my caster and it looks like I have 0 on the PS and 1-2 degrees on the DS so I'm going to add some shims tonight and see what happens. Not sure how I am off from when I checked it 2 months ago (still post lift).

rover67
11-02-2010, 12:55 PM
Trey's pulls much worse than mine did when I had the Aussie. I drove it and it is literally all over the road. Feels like mine did when the caster was not steep enough, but is amplified.

60wag
11-02-2010, 01:02 PM
How do you measure caster without a fancy alignment table?

satchel
11-02-2010, 01:04 PM
I just put an angle finder on the knuckle at the knuckle bolts. Same with measuring pinion angles and such.

AxleIke
11-02-2010, 01:51 PM
This is certainly not axle wrap. Likely torque steer, or roll steer, like randy suggested.

What angle is your drag link at? Likely not the cause but extreme drag link angles can cause issues.

Get the caster fixed. That cross caster will hose you a bit, but not a ton. Is positive good on these trucks?

I have some roll steer in my truck due to the rear link design. With leaf springs, you have a similar issue with roll axis, but it isn't as pronounced.

As for vibration, perhaps the locker isn't functioning properly? Did your drive shaft come apart and possible the joints are out of phase now? I'm guessing you and marco checked out the bearings before sticking it in. You should have no play in the pinion flange.

satchel
11-02-2010, 02:01 PM
My drag link is not anything extreme I don't think. It is angled down so there is a bit of bump steer, but it is the same angle anyone with an OME lift would have.

I'm doing 3 degree caster shims tonight so I will post up afterwards how that helped out. From what I understand, 1* of caster (top of knuckle 1* towards the rear) is stock, but that many people run 4-6* without issues.

My understanding is that there is no real bad effects on steering to be anywhere from 2-9* or so. More than that supposedly can induce the death wobble, and obviously the more caster you have, the more effort you have to use to move the wheel from center. Also, you don't want to go so far that you throw the pinion angle off.

I'm not sure yet on the vibration. It was a used diff, but Marco and I looked at it and he didn't seem to think there was any excessive play in it. Once I get my steering figured out I will probably pull the locker and leave the diff and see if it still has issues just to isolate which of the items is causing the problem.

Air Randy
11-02-2010, 02:46 PM
The caster correction should help but it will not eliminate torque steer. You get that from the body roll and the fact the locker is applying more power to one wheel than the other for a short period.

Be sure and check your front cross member to make sure it is not loose or cracked. If it is it will allow the front to flex more exxagerating the problem.

As far as the diff causing vibration on decel. The first thing that comes to mind is what Ike suggested, DS out of phase (though it should also cause vibration on acceleration too). Next likely would be a bad pinion bearing. When you accelerate the torque forces the bearing into the cup removing slop, but when you decel it pops it out of the cup if there is excessive play. That can let the flange wobble a little but it has to be really worn. The other possibility is the locker is locking/unlocking causing wheel hop or jerking. If you pull it as a test you'll answer that question fast enough.

I don't believe any of your issues are related to the placement of the TC in relationship to the diff pinion flanges. I have seen people run toyota TC's set up for offset differentials and run them into a centered diff. The only issue they ever have is premature u joint death. There is enough travel in the DS slip joint to ensure any TC movement is not being transferred to your front axle.

satchel
11-02-2010, 04:40 PM
Good thoughts, I'll look at it tonight.

As for the driveshaft, it is not out of phase. I did disconnect it from the diff to change it out, obviously, but I didn't pull it apart, and I also looked at that again last night to make 100% sure and the yellow dots from when it was balanced and shortened (5.3 conversion) still line up on the yoke and the shaft.

that's good to know that being off center from tcase to diff will not cause an issue as that was one of the main things I was looking at.

AxleIke
11-02-2010, 06:09 PM
You didn't change anything other than the diff, correct? You pulled your old diff, and put in the new, correct?

If that is the case, then its the locker. And the diff must have some play in it, if you didn't change drive line angles.

As for the offset between diff and TC, this is only a problem if the angles are exactly opposite. In your case, if the tcase is straight, and the diff is straight, then you will not have vibes due to the offset. Assuming you rotated the rear axle to compensate for the longer drivetrain, and new angles, you shouldn't have any issues there, except, as Randy said, premature wear.

You can check the angles on the angle finder, and just make sure both tcase and axle are opposite.

I am also assuming that you are running in only 2wd, or, pulled the front diff too.

Air Randy
11-02-2010, 07:20 PM
or at least the front driveshaft :D

TIMZTOY
11-02-2010, 07:25 PM
yea its not axle wrap with new springs and spring under. i didnt know that b4.. id deffentlly say torque steer more than alignment, like the others have sugusted, odds are your frame is twisting. id also pop your head under and check for cracks in the frame aswell as structure rust. partiurally around the leaf spring brackets. you could also have a friend get in the truck and brake torque it while you look at the suspention and all mounts for flex. just hold the brake and snap the gas for a second then let off. if its suspention related youll see it. if its alignment related the computer will see it..

satchel
11-02-2010, 09:25 PM
Well, I just put on the 3* shims and it didn't fix it at all. And yes, it is in 2wd while doing this. I also don't see any cracks or anything abnormal around the frame where the springs would be connected to it, and I don't really have rust on my frame to speak of.

Can anyone suggest a decent shop that could figure this out for me? I'm at a loss right now and I would hate to just throw money and parts at it without knowing the cause.

Ike, you are correct, I didn't do anything other than throw in a used diff and locker. I did notice the pull slightly with the old diff, but now that the locker is there it is 10x as bad.

My rear is exactly opposite the tcase angle. It is 1* up and the tcase is 1* down.

njtacoma
11-02-2010, 09:37 PM
Have you thought about disconnecting the rear driveshaft, engaging the front hubs and gently (gently) accelerating to see if it changes things in anyway?

It sure sounds like torque steer, but this would help eliminate or point to the rear end as the source of your problems.

-Neil

satchel
11-02-2010, 09:42 PM
I thought about that, but the reason I haven't done it is because it wasn't nearly this bad before the diff and locker install.

I guess I could try that and see.

satchel
11-02-2010, 10:16 PM
Ok, just tried your suggestion of running the truck in front wheel drive mode, meaning 4wd with the rear drive shaft disconnected. I actually took it on the highway as well. I get reverse pull from what I was getting. The difference is that now, the truck pulls to the left some when coasting, about the 11 o clock position on the steering wheel, and when I accelerate it wants to go to the right about 5-10 degrees. Not nearly as bad as the pull is with the rear drive shaft connected in rear wheel drive mode, but worse than it was before I installed the locker in the back.

to sum up, it used to pull slightly to the left upon acceleration and then come to about even when coasting with my old diff and no aussie locker. New diff and locker and it starts quickly to the right and then hard to the left where my steering wheel is at the 3 o clock position to correct it while accelerating, and comes back to about even when coasting. Front wheel drive only pulls about 10 degrees to the left when coasting and pulls to the right about 10 degrees when accelerating.

Also, there were no vibrations at all.

If anyone has ideas I'd love to hear them. I will try the torque braking idea when I can get someone to help me with that to see if something is flexing that shouldn't be.

TIMZTOY
11-02-2010, 10:38 PM
well then the vibration is your driveshaft.. if you have a carrarer bearing, odds are thats it..
my roomate who is also a tech, says its tourque steer, and the only way to fix it propelly is to do a 4link, becasue this is the same thing that happens to drag cars.. what they have to do is box the frame ! (start with first) (could also install a x member)
the proper way to fix it is to install a 4link and preload the driver rear suspention, because the toruque from the motor is causing the suspention/frame to flex, and squating the left rear and lifting the right rear. causing the truck to steer left..
a cheaper fix that might not fix anything but its eaiser and cheaper that the above is to install new shocks with more support.. id personally start with the shocks, then start boxing in the frame starting from the center, and working rearwords.. id also cut holes in the frame and sleeve those holes with tube.. to loose weight and add strength... just start boxing like 1-2' sections at a time. then drive it again.. and see if its still there.. granted theses are not cheap fix's but i dont think your going to be able to fix it cheaplly..

satchel
11-02-2010, 10:42 PM
Not sure I follow. Why do you think it is the rear driveshaft and not the rear diff?

I disconnected the entire rear and only ran the front end and there was no vibration. The rear diff could still be vibrating at the pinion flange and I wouldn't know it because the driveshaft isn't hooked up to transfer that vibration to the tcase, right? I really can't see it being the driveshaft because I was using it before without any issues.

nakman
11-02-2010, 10:51 PM
dude you're figuring it out! and it makes perfect sense.. think about your driveshaft rotation, they're the same, right? but the pinions are on different sides meaning the torque under load is going to be opposite front or rear, that's why the torque steer is reversed! so if you now put it in 4WD they will counter each other out somewhat.. and if you were still open in back it'd likely go away almost completely in 4WD.


My solution? some kind of adjustable lift block, or pin relocation device. Something that will allow you loosen up one side of the rear axle and dial in its front-back location. I'm curious what the distance numbers are from one side to the other (what 60wag referred to as thrust angle), from your posts on the first page I was thinking the distance is slightly longer on the driver's side (hub to hub), compared to the passenger side, so my next thought is how can you increase the wheelbase on the passenger side....:confused:

TIMZTOY
11-02-2010, 10:54 PM
Not sure I follow. Why do you think it is the rear driveshaft and not the rear diff?

I disconnected the entire rear and only ran the front end and there was no vibration. The rear diff could still be vibrating at the pinion flange and I wouldn't know it because the driveshaft isn't hooked up to transfer that vibration to the tcase, right? I really can't see it being the driveshaft because I was using it before without any issues.

its not the diff because the diff is still spinning even with the drive shaft not connected.. because there still connected to the tires.. regardless,

and i added more to my post above..

satchel
11-02-2010, 10:57 PM
Whoa Nakman... let me re read what you said cause I am definitely not getting it.

So, before I do that, let me share what Proffitt's cruisers suggested the problem is:


Trey,

Off of the top of my head, I would suggest looking at:

engine mounts
tranny mounts
drive line angles


I can't imagine you needing a track bar with a 2.5" lift. OME springs are stiff and there is not much wrap to them in a SUA configuration.

This makes me wonder if my tranny/tcase mount is flexing too much, and under torque it is moving to the passenger side some. That means the rear of the tcase would be pointing to the passenger side and the front would be pointing to the driver's side. That could possibly mean that if that is causing the pull, that it would be opposite depending on whether the rear is driving the truck or the front is.

I'm not sure if that is what you are saying, but it's a thought. Let me re read now and I may understand what you are saying.

satchel
11-02-2010, 10:59 PM
Timztoy, The 4 link idea was basically where I was going with this whole thing when we were talking about anti wrap, I was just a little confused. I'm still thinking about trying to add a bar on the sides of the rear to keep it stationary laterally but that could get expensive so I want to try everything else out first.

satchel
11-02-2010, 11:08 PM
Nakman, I think I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that you think my thrust angle is always off, or just off under acceleration? My original thought was that my axle housing is moving laterally under acceleration, meaning my thrust angle is moving under acceleration. I'm assuming it is fine when just sitting being that it is fine when I'm coasting (using rwd). This I think would be helped by some sort of traction bar to the rear that would keep the rear end in a stationary position laterally.

Timztoy, as for the vibration. I can definitely say it is in the rear. It is probably either the diff, the locker inside the diff, or the driveshaft. I would still think it would be possible to have the diff flange vibrating some without the driveshaft attached and not feel the vibration, but once the driveshaft is attached it would send it through to the tcase and you could feel it much more pronounced. That's not to say it couldn't be the driveshaft, I just don't think it is because it was fine before I changed the diff.

nakman
11-02-2010, 11:29 PM
I'm hypothesizing that your thrust angle is off and it's been off since you put those springs on, under acceleration it makes your steering funky, under braking it makes it funky in the other direction, and the rest of the time you just track sideways a little bit. Adding the locker just exposed the issue with the added traction.

It's pretty common for folks with an Aussie to mention that sometimes the back end is squirrely or seems to shift to one side while taking off from a stop. I had that once, actually removed the locker because of it.. but that was a 40, not a wagon where things are more spread out and more tolerant.

I'm just guessing here.. but my theory sounds similar to Proffit's, though I didn't consider it could be the t-case itself that isn't true.. I'd think the u-joints would compensate for that but what do I know.. :)

satchel
11-02-2010, 11:34 PM
I could see my thrust angle getting off under acceleration causing this issue, but I can't really see it always being off because it doesn't do anything when coasting (in rwd mode) and it doesn't do anything when braking, only when accelerating. Maybe it is though, because in front wheel drive mode it does pull to the left when coasting and to the right when accelerating.... I guess I would think that it would go one way all the time if it were off no matter whether you were accelerating or not.

I guess I can find out for sure by going out and measuring from the front tire to the rear on both sides just to make sure.

Here's my basic theory of what is going on: When measuring pinion angles, most people say that you should put the rear diff down about 2* from what the tcase flange is, so that when you provide power, the rear diff moves up slightly, about 2*, and then makes that angle equal so that there is no vibration. That's why I'm wondering if having the tcase offset to the center of the vehicle some, and again if it is I can't see it, that under acceleration it may pull the rear diff towards it slightly therefore causing a thrust angle issue and causing the rear to drive in that direction. I'm assuming some sort of 4 link or something like that would fix this issue, if it is the issue. Then again, there was a post about people having an offset tcase going to a centered diff without issue, so it probably is a bad theory.

subzali
11-03-2010, 08:25 AM
If it were me, this is what I would do to gather more information (especially seeing as Marco's truck was pretty much set up the same as yours before he put ARBs in it):

-Take out the locker in the rear diff for now and put the spider gears back in.
-Take the truck to Big O Tire or someplace where they do alignments and have them check the alignment all the way around (didn't you say your caster on each side was different? How is that able to happen on a Land Cruiser axle?)
-If you're concerned about the alignment of your t-case, take some measurements in comparison to Marco's truck or a stock FJ60 to find out how much your t-case flange location changed, if it did at all, or if it's even something to worry about.
-Maybe check Marco's angles of his t-case and rear pinion as well to see how yours compare.

To me, more information would be more helpful in this situation. But I'm no expert. I'm just having a hard time believing that you can't find a solution without resorting to a trac bar or a 4 link design. You're not the only one to put a V8 in a 60 series wagon with an OME Heavy lift...

satchel
11-03-2010, 08:58 AM
I will be taking out the locker soon. Hopefully this weekend.

I will likely take it to get aligned soon as well.

I've wondered how they could be different caster angles as well, and the only thing I've noticed looking at it that could explain it is that the passenger side shackle is at more of an angle than the drivers side. In other words, the front of the passenger spring is closer to the mount than the drivers side, maybe because of more weight on that side or something. I also have the A and B leaves in the back causing the drivers side rear to be raised up some, so that may be putting more weight on the front on one side than the other.

nakman
11-03-2010, 09:03 AM
What about some forced spring settling.. go wheel it or find a ditch somewhere where you can get it up on just two wheels for a minute... two corners at a time? You could also go haul rocks (http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showthread.php?t=13858) on Saturday with the club.. doubtful it makes the problem go away, but it could get a little better. Or a little worse, either way it's progress towards isolating the issue.

satchel
11-03-2010, 09:12 AM
I hadn't thought of that, it's worth a try I guess. I think I will be pulling my locker on Saturday but if I can get that done before the rock haul then I could probably make it.

rover67
11-03-2010, 09:51 AM
Have you eyeballed the front and rear axles to see if they are square and the truck doesn't look like it sits sideways? An easy way to check that is to just drive down the street and have somebody follow you from behind. The person following can steer over to line up with the rear wheels and eye ball it. Big misalignments are obvious. Better maybe if somebody else drives it and you look.

Are the U bolts in the rear tight? What is your toe set at? Does the pinion flange still feel tight? I remember checking it when we installed it and it felt solid... no wiggle.. but that may have changed?

are your tire pressures perfect? I remember that affected the action of my Aussie.

I am running out of ideas...

I can have the spiders for that 4.11 ready for ya any time. I was also going to throw the spiders back in your old 3.73 diff so you could take it back as well.

satchel
11-03-2010, 10:00 AM
I haven't eyeballed the axles to see, I was planning on measuring the tires front to rear to see if one side is closer than the other. That should do the same thing right?

The U bolts are tight, very tight. I don't remember on the toe, we set it at your place a long time ago. Pinion flange still feels pretty tight to me.

Tire pressures are all around 35. I have the spider gears for the 4.11 and will try to throw them in this weekend. If you want to help me get the locker out that would be great, but otherwise I will try and get it all out of there.

Air Randy
11-03-2010, 10:27 AM
I do not think this is a TCase alignment issue. Disconnect your driveshaft at the tcase and pull on it, the yoke should slid fairly easily up and back. Unless your driveshaft is too long there is no way it is pulling or pushing your rear axle around enough to cause misalignment to the degree you are experiencing. Check the obvious stuff first before you get off into building track bars and 4 link systems.

Is there any chance you installed the rear springs backwards, or just one side backwards? That could put your rear axle out of alignment by several inches.

Check the same on the front. It's actually easy to do as there is only a slight difference in front to back distance on the centering pin. I am very suspicious of the fact you say your shackle angle is noticeably different on one side versus the other, especially with brand new springs. There should not be enough weight difference left to right to make one side sag noticeably. If you have one spring flipped around it could account for the different shackle angle.

Check where the cross members attach to the frame. On 40's that is where the front cross member itself usually cracks, on the drivers side.

Your rear vibration is probably coming from the diff itself and removing the DS just stopped transmitting the vibration so you could feel it.

rover67
11-03-2010, 10:29 AM
I haven't eyeballed the axles to see, I was planning on measuring the tires front to rear to see if one side is closer than the other. That should do the same thing right?

The U bolts are tight, very tight. I don't remember on the toe, we set it at your place a long time ago. Pinion flange still feels pretty tight to me.

Tire pressures are all around 35. I have the spider gears for the 4.11 and will try to throw them in this weekend. If you want to help me get the locker out that would be great, but otherwise I will try and get it all out of there.

Measuring tires front to rear won't tell you if the axles are offset to one another, but it will tell you if they are not parallel.

Double check the toe when you get a chance. just a quick check with a tape measure from inside of tire to inside of tire on the front and rear of the front tires.. I think we set it at about an 1/8th to a 1/4". should still be about the same.

satchel
11-03-2010, 10:43 AM
Oh, I see what you mean about offset now. I will have someone follow behind and look at it.

I don't believe any of the springs are backwards. I have looked at that numerous times actually. The military wrap of the spring is toward the rear on the front springs and the front on the rear springs.

I will check my cross members again, but I didn't notice anything odd last night.

subzali
11-03-2010, 11:47 AM
On the toe, even if the tires are toed-in correctly in reference to each other, they may not be toed-in correctly in reference the the frame. Take two examples for a 0.25" toe-in:

left tire is toed-in 0" wrt frame
right tire is toed-in 0.25" wrt frame

VS.

left tire is toed-in 0.125" wrt frame
right tire is toed-in 0.125" wrt frame

In both cases the tires are 0.25" wrt each other but their relation to the frame is different. That could make a difference.

satchel
11-03-2010, 11:52 AM
I don't think that makes sense to me. I didn't realize you could toe in a tire in relation to the frame cause the toe will change in relation to the frame as soon as you move the steering wheel. I thought toe was only related to the other tire. I probably just need to have an alignment shop look at it.

I guess it just seems to me like your 2 examples could both be achieved by turning the steering wheel and not changing the toe at all.

subzali
11-03-2010, 12:17 PM
Maybe you're right. The tires are going to center themselves naturally when rolling down the road. Okay, nevermind.

satchel
11-03-2010, 12:19 PM
You could be right and I'm just not seeing it. Either way, I appreciate the thoughts.

nakman
11-03-2010, 02:30 PM
I'm still in the "axles aren't parallel" camp until proven otherwise. Measuring between the tires may get you there, but there's a lot more variables if you have uneven wear, or the tires are turned, etc. A better measurement would maybe be "center pin to center pin" if you have u-bolt flips and enough room to do that? Or shock bolt to shock bolt? Or something else that's common to both axles... as far out towards the tires as possible. Maybe you could just c-clamp a tape measure to the axle itself? Hopefully something is easy down there, and repeatable, and isn't skewed by changes in the axle tube diameters.

TIMZTOY
11-03-2010, 03:55 PM
Pm sent !

Air Randy
11-03-2010, 10:02 PM
I'm still in the "axles aren't parallel" camp until proven otherwise. Measuring between the tires may get you there, but there's a lot more variables if you have uneven wear, or the tires are turned, etc. A better measurement would maybe be "center pin to center pin" if you have u-bolt flips and enough room to do that? Or shock bolt to shock bolt? Or something else that's common to both axles... as far out towards the tires as possible. Maybe you could just c-clamp a tape measure to the axle itself? Hopefully something is easy down there, and repeatable, and isn't skewed by changes in the axle tube diameters.

I agree with you, thats why I was wondering if a spring was flipped. That could cause an axle to be quite a bit out of alignment. It's also suspicious that he has one shackle angled quite a bit different than the other one.

satchel
11-03-2010, 10:39 PM
Ok, here's some pics of the shackles. The first shows how I'm using the angle finder to see what angle the shackles are at. 90* would be straight up and down, the drivers side is 74* and the passenger side is 68*. My thought has been that, because I have the 'A' and 'B' springs in the back, 'A' being taller on the driver's side, that maybe the driver's rear being taller would be tilting the trucks weight to the front passenger side some and therefore putting more weight on that spring in the front.

Take a look at the springs and let me know if anything looks fishy.

Uncle Ben
11-03-2010, 10:58 PM
I have not paid attention to this tread. You problem sounds hugely like a tire issue. For giggles swap your rear tires side to side and see if the problem switches. A locker would aggravate the situation and possibly even cause vibrations just like you have described. You are definatly getting torque steer.

satchel
11-03-2010, 11:00 PM
It's not tires I don't think. I've had bad tires pull before, this is dramatically different. Tires that I have noticed doing that before also seem to pretty much always do it. This is pretty much just an acceleration thing. I have also already done the X rotation. PS rear to DS front, DS rear to PS front.

nakman
11-03-2010, 11:03 PM
Ok for grins can you post up a pic of the right rear shackle? we have the others... then how about some panned out shots showing the full spring packs? Were you able to get any measurements?

Uncle Ben
11-03-2010, 11:03 PM
It's not tires I don't think. I've had bad tires pull before, this is dramatically different. I have also already done the X rotation. PS rear to DS front, DS rear to PS front.

Spring eye bushings in good shape? Sorry, just reread through and seen they are new.... I will re read word for word before I post anything else....

satchel
11-03-2010, 11:13 PM
Bushings are all new, so I'm assuming they are in good shape.

Here are the rest of the requested pics. Let me know if something else would help.

Uncle Ben
11-03-2010, 11:46 PM
Whew....that was a lot of reading.... :rolleyes:

I too used to have a V-8 62 and it was very rowdy. I did not have torque steer even with the Detroit I had in the rear at first. You do not need a torque bar with that small of lift especially being spring under. Randy, has a good grip on this as every hunch I come up with he has already posted. My working theory is engine/T-case mounting or cracked frame. How rigid did you mount the power train? Non-parallel to the frame will not cause torque steer in a leaf sprung vehicle BTW. If your power train mounting is really rigid it could cause torque steer but I can't imagine it being as bad as you describe yours. Quite the puzzler!

Air Randy
11-04-2010, 08:25 AM
How much slop do you have in your steering gear when just rocking the steering wheel from side to side? If you have extra play in the power steering gear it may accentuate the torque steer effects.

At this point I can say were taking the buggy to Moab today and will return Sunday night. I will be in town on Monday before leaving the rest of the week on business. If you want to bring it by my place we can go over it in detail and see what we can find. Diagnosing stuff like this via the forum has it's limits.

satchel
11-04-2010, 09:36 AM
How rigid is it mounted? The engine mounts are the standard AA engine mounts if you know what that means. I don't know that they are any more or less rigid than anything else. As for the crossmember on the tranny, that is a different story. At first I thought it would be too weak because it is a pretty small bar, but it is just bolted up to the frame on each side and there is an FJ60 tranny mount that connects the crossmember to the tranny adapter.

Not much slop in my steering. I've tightened it up pretty well I think. There is a little bit, but not much.

I think I'm going to take TIMZTOY up on his offer to look it over real soon and see if I can get it aligned. If things come up empty there then I will probably get with you as well, Randy. I figure the more eyes that look at it the better chance I have at someone finding something. I could probably make it over Monday night if you are free, just PM me your number and let me know if that works or not.

satchel
11-04-2010, 10:52 PM
Ok, I just measured my drivers side front tire at the hub to the rear drivers side tire at the center of the wheel and then the same thing on the passenger side. The measurement on the drivers side is 107 inches and the passenger side is 106.5.

rover67
11-05-2010, 08:43 AM
does it look crossed up when you follow from behind?

satchel
11-05-2010, 09:16 AM
That I still haven't gotten to check yet.

satchel
11-05-2010, 09:17 AM
I have followed it several times and never noticed it before, but I haven't been able to do so recently. I will probably do that tonight or tomorrow.

Air Randy
11-07-2010, 08:15 PM
The measurement on the drivers side is 107 inches and the passenger side is 106.5.

Which makes sense based on the pictures you showed of your shackles. The drivers side has a greater angle than the passenger side so the spring on that side is longer for some reason. You could have a broken leaf, a spring pack starting to sag, the spring pak center pin could be broken, etc. If whatever it is is flexing or moving as you drive, that is what is giving you such pronounced torque steer.

satchel
11-07-2010, 09:52 PM
Well I guess it's just going to have to remain a mystery. I decided I could not handle it any more and I pulled out the locker. I might try and save up for an ARB down the line sometime. It's back to being a decent driver for now.

Air Randy
11-08-2010, 08:31 AM
I get back into town this coming Friday. Try to bring it over on Sat or Sun and lets take a look at it. Even if you don't put a locker back in it, you've got something going on that still needs to be fixed.

satchel
11-08-2010, 10:24 AM
Randy, I could definitely do that. It will probably be much harder to tell what the problem is without the locker. It still moves a little on acceleration, but not like while the locker is in there. Saturday would be great if you want to hook up then. I'll send you a pm.

Air Randy
11-14-2010, 08:52 AM
Trey came over yesterday with his 60 so we could try to further the investigation into his steering issues. We took it for a test drive to see how the handling/steering was with the locker removed. I drove it pretty hard and, as expected with the locker out, there was no evidence of any torque steer. I can tell you that V8 runs REALLY good and that thing really gets up and goes! You can feel a little torque twist in the chassis when you jump on it, but thats normal.

There was a little bit of rumble in the rear driveline when decelerating from higher speeds. That could be a rough bearing or gear set in the rear diff, but there is also some slop in the rear TC output yoke that needs to be investigated too.

We put it in the shop and gave it a very thorough visual inspection front to rear for any signs of cracks or misalignment. We checked the entire steering system for signs of play or misalignment. We did find a very small clunk in the steering column which sounds like a tilt-wheel u joint getting a little loose. Trey is already planning on replacing it.

We then hoisted the vehicle up and checked the geometry of the axles and springs and everything was within 1/8" or less. We then put a come-along between each axle and the bumper and put a lot of pressure on each spring pack to see if there was any excess movement in the hangers, bushings, u bolts or spring packs. Nada.

We really only found 1 mechanical issue = the drivers side front wheel bearing was so loose the tire had over an inch of movement at the top :eek: Trey pulled it apart under Ricardo's expert guidance and re-packed it. The wheel bearings were replaced a couple of weeks ago so we don't believe this was a factor in the torque steer issue. We think maybe a lock nut just came loose on that side as the preload on the passenger side was fine.

There is a 2* difference in the shackle angles on the rear springs. The drivers side is 6* and the passenger side is 8*. That is explained by the OME springs having an "A" and "B" side spring, apparently the drivers side gets slightly more arch by design to offset "cruiser lean".

In summary, I could find nothing wrong that would account for excess torque steer. I do have a theory though: The rig does have a rear sway bar. The new suspension has clearly raised the rear of the vehicle a solid 3" at least over the old stock springs. The sway bar is still connected and the links have not been lengthened to account for the new suspension height. I know on some sway bar equipped vehicles you have to lengthen those links when you mod the suspension.

Is it possible the sway bar is under a lot of torsion on both sides because of the up pressure from the new springs? If so, when torque steer does occur with the locker (unavoidable) is the extra strong unloading/reloading of the sway bar amplifying the movement? Especially with a slight arch difference already, if the springs flex out slightly different a 1/4" variance in rear axle alignment would have an impact on steering.

My suggestion to Trey is to disconnect the sway bar (2 bolts) and see how it drives. Then re-install the locker and see how it performs without the sway bar connected. If he sees a big reduction in the torque steer he can try lengthening the sway bar links or toss the sway bar if he doesn't see the need for it.

For those of you with more experience on the effects of sway bars, does that sound feasible? Any other suggestions?

FJBRADY
11-14-2010, 08:58 AM
Any other suggestions?

I would ask D. Schlegs..........:dunno:

satchel
11-14-2010, 09:33 AM
Thanks a ton to Randy and Ricardo for all their help! I will probably throw the locker in sometime after the holidays and will then reinvestigate the effects of the sway bar.

AxleIke
11-14-2010, 09:34 AM
Generally, with a sway bar, the bar only sees torsional loading when one side is compressed and the other is not.

An antisway bar is simply a torsional spring, secured to the frame in some fashion, generally a couple of bushings and some clamps.

If the 60 series bar is anything like a regular antisway bar, then simply lifting it will not change how the sway bar works. People usually lengthen the links to bring the sway bar back to its factory position, thus keeping the links to the axle from the bar in good angles, so that the links don't break. The lift pulls the sway bar down, causing the links to be at different angles, and causes excessive wear to the joints.

Anyway, I'm not sure that is is problem.

However, since he removed the locker, and it now drives pretty normal, is it possible that the locker was malfunctioning, and not driving the wheels as it should? I'm assuming this is a used unit? The ultimate solution here is a selectable, but it seems weird that this would be such an issue just due to the autolocker.

AxleIke
11-14-2010, 09:36 AM
I would ask D. Schlegs..........:dunno:

You guys sure are hard on that guy :D

However, at least you didn't inadvertently make a psychologist joke before you realized that he had his MD in that very field. Want to know what a size 13 boot tastes like?

FJBRADY
11-14-2010, 10:02 AM
You guys sure are hard on that guy :D

However, at least you didn't inadvertently make a psychologist joke before you realized that he had his MD in that very field. Want to know what a size 13 boot tastes like?

I know, but I have a warped sense of humor....my father is smiling down right about now. Michele says I should be nice.....she is definately my better half.

:banghead:

satchel
11-14-2010, 11:01 AM
The locker is not a used unit.

Uncle Ben
11-14-2010, 11:28 AM
My V8-62 drove great with a Lock Right! It drove better when I put a Detroit in the rear. I ended up putting the Air Locker in the rear because I pull heavy trailers all the time and the fatigue on the rear axles from that broke a few. Going to a selectable in the rear solved the axle breaking issues.

AxleIke
11-14-2010, 01:47 PM
My V8-62 drove great with a Lock Right! It drove better when I put a Detroit in the rear. I ended up putting the Air Locker in the rear because I pull heavy trailers all the time and the fatigue on the rear axles from that broke a few. Going to a selectable in the rear solved the axle breaking issues.

If the lockright was broken, would it cause the issues that Satchel is seeing? Meaning, could only one tire driving only, and the other getting no power, cause the steering issues?

Uncle Ben
11-14-2010, 02:09 PM
If the lockright was broken, would it cause the issues that Satchel is seeing? Meaning, could only one tire driving only, and the other getting no power, cause the steering issues?

When a Lock right is worn out/broken it "pops" but it is impossible for it to only drive one axle unless an axle is broken.

Dr. Schlegs
11-14-2010, 03:53 PM
:ranger:

satchel
11-18-2010, 04:22 AM
So I changed out my diff and steering column with the replacements I got in the mail today from cruiserparts.net. Neither of the units were 100%. I got the column to work eventually but it took some grinding on the ignition to get it to work. As for the diff, the pinion is not set closely enough to the ring gear and it is just loud because of the play. Is it pretty easy to move the ring gear closer to the pinion? The good news is that my steering column no longer clanks and there is no vibration from the diff, just noise. I do still have the same torque steer issue I had all along.

subzali
11-18-2010, 08:02 AM
What does the tooth pattern look like on the gears? There are two ways to move the pinion "closer" to the ring gear. Either by changing the shims under the pinion (not a trivial task) or by moving the ring gear a little bit. But which one you need to do depends on what the tooth pattern looks like.

satchel
11-18-2010, 08:04 AM
I have no idea. I have a few videos of it that I will try to post up later this morning that may help answer that question.

subzali
11-18-2010, 08:09 AM
This is what helps:
http://risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showthread.php?t=10162&highlight=gear+pattern

satchel
11-18-2010, 09:46 AM
Just realized that I can't attach a video to this thread. I'll try and post it to youtube or something tonight and link over to it.

Here is a screenshot of the video showing the pinion and ring teeth. This is probably not what you are looking for so let me know if it is something else you are requesting.

satchel
11-18-2010, 10:08 AM
One other thing I noticed that could possibly have been causing the vibration in the other diff was that the thrust washers were too small.

When I put in my Aussie locker with Marco, I had to use one of his old thrust washers that was smaller than what was in mine because the locker wouldn't fit in otherwise. When I pulled the locker back out I left the thinner washers in and the block in the middle of the carrier pretty much went in with a little room to spare.

When I put in the diff I got yesterday, that block in the carrier was barely squeezed in there. So tight that I almost thought about using a hammer. That got me thinking that maybe there was a little too much play between the axles and the block which may have been causing my vibes.

satchel
11-18-2010, 11:36 AM
Does anyone know if you can adjust the ring backlash without pulling the diff? Can I just adjust it with the back cover off? I'm referring to RA-18 in the FSM if anyone is curious. It looks like that would fix my problem.

Air Randy
11-18-2010, 12:03 PM
The backlash will increase as diffs wear, usually due to 2 reasons: High torque situations have further crushed the crush sleeve resulting in pinion movement or actual wear on the ring & pinion gears and/or side bearings.

If you have excessive backlash I would pop out the diff and put an over haul kit into it (or rebuild the one you just pulled out). You can get a kit from cruiseroutfitters for $129 and it includes new bearings, pinion nut, seal, crush sleeve, shims and gear marking compound.

You can remove the side nut lock bolts and use a punch to rotate the side nuts in opposite directions so you can move the ring gear closer to the pinion to reduce BL but I don't recommend it.

This is one of those times that cutting corners is not a good idea.

satchel
11-18-2010, 12:29 PM
That's good advice. I'll throw the one I just pulled out back in tonight, and then rebuild the one currently in there soon after. I think that one is a better candidate for a rebuild. I was under the impression that rebuilding these was like a 5 banana job, but I might as well give it a shot anyway. I wish I had just gotten a good third off the bat!

satchel
11-18-2010, 08:00 PM
Can anyone tell me why these two are different? They are the gears that mate to the axle inside the carrier and they are from FJ62 4.11 diffs. Would it be better to use one over the other?

Air Randy
11-18-2010, 10:09 PM
That's good advice. I'll throw the one I just pulled out back in tonight, and then rebuild the one currently in there soon after. I think that one is a better candidate for a rebuild. I was under the impression that rebuilding these was like a 5 banana job, but I might as well give it a shot anyway. I wish I had just gotten a good third off the bat!

You do need a dial indicator, spanner wrench, inch pound torque wrench and a foot pound torque wrench. A vise is useful too. You also need access to a bearing splitter and bearing press. You do need to perform the overhaul process in the right order and carefully but it is within your capability with a little over sight the first time.

Always glad to help out if you need assistance.

Air Randy
11-19-2010, 10:29 AM
I can't remeber if you're doing 4.10 or 3.70 gears, but I do have a matched 3.70 pinion & ring gear that is still installed on the open center diff. This came from a good diff I got from Marco so I know they're good. Marco has first dibs on them but if he doesn't want them you can have them if they help you out.

satchel
11-19-2010, 03:05 PM
I'm doing 4.1. Thanks for the offer though.

satchel
12-02-2010, 11:41 PM
Thought I would update this with the video of the second rear diff I installed in my 62 from cruiserparts.net. The video is right after I installed it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7Xc9B4w2MA

They are sending me a third third now, hopefully this one is a decent item.

corsair23
12-03-2010, 01:46 AM
Crikey man...Hopefully things will turn around soon and you'll be able to stop working on the 62 and start enjoying it :thumg:

satchel
12-03-2010, 06:59 PM
Not sure if you guys are able to see this or not, so let me know if it doesn't work. Just got my third diff in today, they were supposed to ship it to Texas where my truck is now but whatever. Opened the box and started rotating the flange back and forth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFwWEF1AYXo

It's the "clicking differential #2" video.

I'm tired of getting these from them, so does it sound like there is a simple adjustment that I could do to fix this thing? It's much much harder to turn the ring gear by hand than my last 2 were for whatever that's worth. Do you think this clicking would go away when it gets oiled?

rover67
12-03-2010, 07:25 PM
Well, there is supposed to be some backlash in it.. the best thing to do would be to measure it i guess. In other words, measure the amount that the ring gear moves back and forth with the pinion stationary.

I wouldn't freak until I measured the backlash.

Harbor Freight would have a dial indicator and a stand you could use to measure backlash like this:

look at about minute 1:00 on this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LObfebayp6Y&feature=related

satchel
12-03-2010, 07:57 PM
Should it be that loud though? I'd hate to put this one in too just to hear it clicking all the time.

TIMZTOY
12-03-2010, 08:04 PM
does it still vibrate when it up in the air, with the tires spinning ?
dowbt full but noone has mentioned axle bearings.
and the sway bar wont matter at a angle, ppl typically lengthen it to prevent bushing ware.
if you can bring it by my shop while im working between 4-6 i can lift er up, inspect everything, and also check the alignment.
and you dont need a anti wrap with spring under, i said that b4 knowing it was under. odds are its a simple fix thats just way to easy to overlook..
i can also check your backlash if needed, i have all the tools..
i also have axcess to like 30 toyota master techs, that i could have look at it with me, if its not obvious.

satchel
12-03-2010, 08:55 PM
Tim I'm sure I'll be taking you up on that offer. My truck is in Texas for the next couple of months so it will be a little while.

rover67
12-03-2010, 09:10 PM
As far as how loud it is, It's probably because it's dry.

TIMZTOY
12-04-2010, 01:08 PM
Why is it in Texas ? U trying to make the problem bigger ? :lmao:

If the truck was here it'd only be a small shimmy and slight torque steer. :cool:

Air Randy
12-04-2010, 04:48 PM
Why don't you just get a master rebuild kit from cruiser outfitters for $129? Then we can put all new bearings in it, set the preload with a new crush sleeve and then set the backlash. It's an easy afternoon job since the 3rd member is already out. As long as the R&P don't have any chipped teeth or excessive wear we can fix it up like new. Then you can stop worrying about it.

TIMZTOY
12-04-2010, 05:44 PM
Why don't you just get a master rebuild kit from cruiser outfitters for $129? Then we can put all new bearings in it, set the preload with a new crush sleeve and then set the backlash. It's an easy afternoon job since the 3rd member is already out. As long as the R&P don't have any chipped teeth or excessive wear we can fix it up like new. Then you can stop worrying about it.

thats what i was also thinking.

satchel
12-04-2010, 10:04 PM
It's in Texas getting painted.

I probably will just rebuild it but I figured I would keep trying cruiserparts.net until I got a good one. We'll see how this one does once I get my truck back and I'll rebuild one If I have any more issues.

Air Randy
12-05-2010, 09:27 AM
I thought you said they shipped the 3rd member to you here in Colorado even though the truck is in Texas?

satchel
12-05-2010, 01:23 PM
They did, the diff is here and my truck is in Texas. Not sure what I said that contradicts that, but basically the latest third I got in on Friday is clicking some when I turn the flange so I was just curious if I should even try with putting it in when I do get the truck back. Are you thinking of the first video I had with it installed? That was the second diff I got. Anyway, all of this is on hold for a couple of months regardless, so I figure I'll put the diff in when I get the truck back and if I'm still having problems with the newer one, I'll just rebuild one of the other ones I got from cruiserparts.

Air Randy
12-05-2010, 02:11 PM
I was suggesting you rebuild the 3rd member you currently have in Denver. That way you know it is good and ready to go when you get the truck back. From what I've seen of your videos I wouldn't put any of those diffs back in without going through them first.

satchel
12-05-2010, 05:32 PM
I see. That's probably what I should do, but I was kind of debating on just putting this newest one in there and seeing how it does first. I guess I'm just not very confident that I can rebuild it correctly. Did you say previously that you have all the tools to do a rebuild? Would you be willing to school me on it some weekend? I'm certainly not in any hurry, but I just don't think I can do that myself without messing something up.

Air Randy
12-06-2010, 12:36 PM
I see. That's probably what I should do, but I was kind of debating on just putting this newest one in there and seeing how it does first. I guess I'm just not very confident that I can rebuild it correctly. Did you say previously that you have all the tools to do a rebuild? Would you be willing to school me on it some weekend? I'm certainly not in any hurry, but I just don't think I can do that myself without messing something up.

Yes, I've got everything needed to rebuild it and I'm glad to help.