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Hulk
11-02-2010, 02:49 AM
A few days ago, I dug out my old Dual CS 528 (http://www.vinylengine.com/library/dual/cs-528.shtml) from storage. The belt has been shredded for over a decade. Now thanks to the power of the interweb, I was able to order a new belt (http://www.turntableneedles.com/Flat-Belt-Medium-DUAL-special-133-Inch_p_3786.html) for $15.95 with free shipping.

Probably nothing special about my old turntable, but I bought it new back in 1981 or 1982. It will be cool to see if I can get it working again. My old vinyl awaits.

I wonder if my needle is cashed, too. I had replaced it a few times over the years. Still has the original Ortofon cartridge, too. How does a person evaluate this?

Hulk
11-02-2010, 03:20 AM
Found the stylus I would need: 542-DEV (https://www.turntableneedles.com/Needle-542-DEV_p_1143.html). Check out the picture I took of the actual needle and cartridge on my turntable. The needle isn't original (although it is correct for the cartridge). The Ortofon/Dual cartridge is the same one that came with the turntable.

Crash
11-02-2010, 09:31 AM
Don't listen to vinyl! It will only ruin your digital listening experiences from that point on. Digital is okay as long as you don't compare it to analog. Listen to records and you will only wonder why you ever let the powers that be steer you towards "perfect sound forever". I'd be all too happy to take all that old vinyl crap off your hands, Matt. :hill:
I just had an epiphany in the last couple of weeks: I replaced the rubber drive belt on my record spinner, first with dental floss and when that experiment seemed fruitful, the floss was replaced with silk thread. Amazing how everything sounded considerably better, something akin to better focusing of a camera lens as well as cleaning the lens some. Just installed some NOS Amperex tubes in both the amp and preamp yesterday for similar gains in listening enjoyment. Old school? Moi? You betcha!! Tell us how the "new" turntable and cartridge sound, Hulk, after you've given the cartridge some break in time. The old cartridge's suspension was no doubt shot, so replacing it and the belt were good things to do.
Happy listening!

60wag
11-02-2010, 10:45 AM
My B&O turntable uses a flat black rubber band to make things go round. I pop the band off the motor and platter when the thing is in storage, (which has been most of the last 20 years.) It's still hanging in there but one of these days I'll be searching for a new belt.

As for the needle replacement, it only wears when you're using it. How many hours are on it? You could look at it with a microscope or and eye loupe to see if it looks worn.

Hulk
11-02-2010, 11:37 AM
As for the needle replacement, it only wears when you're using it. How many hours are on it? You could look at it with a microscope or and eye loupe to see if it looks worn.

I think I replaced it my senior year in college (1987). In the years thereafter, I played a mix of CDs and vinyl. I think I'll give it a try with the new belt and see what it sounds like.

Crash
11-02-2010, 12:00 PM
That a cartridge's stylus is the only wear point is incorrect. The suspension of the cantilever is most usually made of rubber. Rubber deteriorates with time, even if unused. If the rubber suspension is dried up and inflexible, it doesn't make any difference if the stylus has never touched a piece of vinyl.

My B&O turntable uses a flat black rubber band to make things go round. I pop the band off the motor and platter when the thing is in storage, (which has been most of the last 20 years.) It's still hanging in there but one of these days I'll be searching for a new belt.

As for the needle replacement, it only wears when you're using it. How many hours are on it? You could look at it with a microscope or and eye loupe to see if it looks worn.

Crash
11-02-2010, 12:16 PM
Even order harmonics are more pleasing to the ear, expecially second order, not odd order.
Dave, the proof is in the hearing, not in the numbers. Fortunately, I don't have an engineering degree that burdens me to being ruled by hard numbers. ;) Even an engineer could hear the improvement of the silk thread drive belt compared to a fresh factory rubber drive belt. I'll bet, if you tried, you could try the experiement on your own table. You may have to help the platter get up to speed because of the initial belt slippage but once proper speed is acheived, it is maintained. As for direct drive, the specs for wow and flutter are small but the noise and vibration induced into the platter and vinyl by the direct drive motor was huge, in comparison. Numbers in recorded audio have never explained everything about the phenomenon of what comprises reproduced sound that makes us happy and sounds like the real thing.

I should also mention that the belt is exactly why Technics and the Japanese tables went to direct drive. They achieved wow/flutter in the >0.01% region while a standard issue NA or European belt-drive can only do ~0.1%. I'd be surprised if even with a perfectly sized silk drive if your table can come anywhere close to a Technics SL-1200mk3 for speed stability, which could do (if memory serves) 0.005%. My Debut III is spec'd at 0.12% flutter. Point is that a belt drive is not necessarily good or bad, but if it's absolute speed you want then nothing that isn't a feedback direct drive is going to do it. But most people feel that the Technics isn't as 'musical' as the belt drives and it's for the same reason you dislike CDs, the precision is perceived as 'sterile'.

Psychoacoustics of music are interesting. For example when you look at the numbers for tubes they should be terrible, 1% THD, yikes. But being that they are lower order and odd harmonics, so they don't sound harsh and are actually appealing.

Now I agree that 44.1KHz is a difficult limit, but for the sake of argument forget the high frequency sampling artifact problem, just take a 440 Hz test tone for comparison and that you are using a decent DAC that has low slew and no oversampling (thus no additional artifacts). They will both sound the same for all practical purposes, but the analog source will likely sound more pleasing because it sounds more natural. Not even the most gifted singer can hold /exactly/ A above middle-C to parts per thousand and we sorta expect some analog-ness to our music.

60wag
11-02-2010, 12:16 PM
That a cartridge's stylus is the only wear point is incorrect. The suspension of the cantilever is most usually made of rubber. Rubber deteriorates with time, even if unused. If the rubber suspension is dried up and inflexible, it doesn't make any difference if the stylus has never touched a piece of vinyl.


Good point. I thought the suspension was a metal spring. What I know about turntables is 20+ years old - long before rubber cartridge suspensions started to decay.

Crash
11-02-2010, 03:07 PM
Dave, engineering and imagination are what fuel the creation of so many of the products that enhance our lives and that artists use to our betterment. Nothing uncomfortable about that! I'd love to demonstrate the differences between the rubber belt and silk thread to you. It's quite easy as my stand alone turntable motor is moveable making the swap a twenty second task.
Matt, to get this back to your original thoughts, Ortofon celebrated their 90th anniversary in the very recent past and is still a leader in the art and science of cartridge design and manufacturing. In this day and age of digital science advances, it is reassuring that good taste is timeless and that money can still be made from old school thinking. I hope you get the new replaceable stylus assembly - nice feature of a moving magnet cartridge - and hook things up in your system. If you do, let us know your impressions. Don't forget, the cartridge will need some time to break in.

Hulk
11-02-2010, 03:55 PM
Just got a notice that the belt shipped today. :)

Once I get the belt installed and determine that the turntable still works (the motor hasn't seized or something else bad), then I'll plunk down for a replacement stylus assembly. That's this thing, right? Or do I need to buy additional parts?

The place online lists three options:
Needle 542-DEV

Quality Level : D7=Stereo LP tip (0.7 mil Dia.) Downgrade copy $21.95
Quality Level : Aftermarket .3x.7 Elliptical $31.95
Quality Level : Genuine Ortofon DN152E $61.95

Crash
11-02-2010, 04:52 PM
Plenty of info out there regarding the various replacement stylii you mention. The middle priced one would work and the low price one appears to be a conical stylus. Worth the extra $10 if your table is in good shape. Have fun!!

Hulk
11-02-2010, 09:25 PM
So the top one isn't even elliptical? I was confused that they would even offer a non-elliptical needle.

Do you think it's worth the extra $30 to get the genuine Ortofon stylus?

Crash
11-03-2010, 09:01 AM
Get the new belt installed and see how the old Dual works before spending $$ on a replacement stylus would be my advice. Going for the Ortophon stylus at the price Dave found would probably be the best way to go. The reason a conical, on average, creates less wear on a record is because it functions its best without any sort of critical setup. The more exotic stylus shapes can dig more information out of a groove but require careful setup by an experienced hand to function their best.

Beater
11-03-2010, 10:34 AM
i second crash.

it's all a matter of perspective. Take that perspective and add that to the time you will actually be using the turntable, divided by the value you place on that experience.

:)


I know I have one of the closest to tube sounding solid state/digital set ups out there. I only really appreciate it about 20% of the time. The rest of the time it's just there. :(

DaveInDenver
08-16-2014, 11:19 AM
Wax and Wane, The Tough Realities Behind Vinyl's Comeback (http://pitchfork.com/features/articles/9467-wax-and-wane-the-tough-realities-behind-vinyls-comeback/)

More and more people are buying vinyl; sales hit a record 6.1 million units in the U.S. last year. But as demand increases, the number of American pressing plants remains relatively fixed. No one is building new presses because, by all accounts, it would be prohibitively expensive. So the industry is limited to the dozen or so plants currently operating in the States. The biggest is Nashville’s United, which operates 22 presses that pump out 30,000 to 40,000 records a day. California-based Rainbo Records and Erika Records are similarly large outfits, and after that come mid-size operations like Record Technology, Inc., also in California, with nine presses, and Cleveland’s Gotta Groove Records, which turns out between 4,000 and 5,000 records a day on six presses. Boutique manufacturers like Musicol in Columbus, Archer in Detroit, and Palomino in Kentucky operate between one and five presses.

“You used to be able to turn over a record in four weeks,” says John Beeler, project manager at Asthmatic Kitty, the label home of Sufjan Stevens. “But I’m now telling my artists that we need at least three months from the time they turn it in to the time we get it back.” Across the board, lengthy lead times that were once anomalies are now the norm. “They’ve been longer this year than they were even nine months ago,” says Nick Blandford, managing director of the Secretly Label Group, which includes prominent indie imprints Secretly Canadian, Jagjaguwar, and Dead Oceans, and artists including Bon Iver and the War on Drugs. “We crossed our fingers and hoped that turn times would improve after Record Store Day in April, but they’re still about the same. We’ve just accepted this as the reality.”

So when it comes to the current state of the vinyl industry’s unlikely resurrection, everyone is happy. And everyone is frustrated.

http://pitchfork-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com/longform/88/P4K_Features_072314_WaxAndWane-BarGraph02%20copy.png

Rzeppa
08-20-2014, 01:14 AM
Even order harmonics are more pleasing to the ear, expecially second order, not odd order.

That's why all my guitar amplifiers are all-tube.

FWIW, I listened to 3 Dog Night's "It Ain't Easy" on vinyl Saturday evening. I used to manage a record store back in the 1970s and still have over a thousand albums.

Hulk
01-06-2015, 01:57 AM
So I'm thinking it's time to replace my old Dual and upgrade. There are a bunch of minor things that need fixing, and it was never a high end turntable to begin with. The guys at Gold Sound have pretty well convinced me that my old Dual is ready to be retired.

Right now, the Pro-ject Debut Carbon (http://www.crutchfield.com/p_252DCESDGB/Pro-Ject-Debut-Carbon-Esprit-SB-DC-Gloss-Black.html?tp=200) is at the top of my list. You can get the metal platter version for $399.

Here's a great review (http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-turntable/) of the current options for a decent turntable that's "budget" priced. The Audio-Technica AT-LP120-USB is certainly very tempting for the price. I'm debating whether I care about whether it's automatic or not. I probably would be fine with a manual table.

The U-Turn turntables (http://store.uturnaudio.com/) are also very cool. All U.S. made and funded on Kickstarter.

DaveInDenver
01-06-2015, 06:33 AM
I have a Pro-Ject Debut III with the cast steel platter, just plain matte black plinth with the Ortofon OM5e cartridge. The main difference between the one you're considering and mine is that my tonearm is an aluminum tube and the Carbon is carbon fiber. The plinth is MDF on both, the motors are the same AFAIK and the suspension is the same. I think some of the Carbons come with an Ortofon 2M Red, which is regarded as a sight improvement over the OM5e I have. Dunno.

The acrylic platter on the Carbon would be nice, if for no other reason than you don't need the felt static mat. Plus it looks cool. But I doubt you'll hear the difference unless your hi-fi is in a dedicated listening room. Personally, I didn't feel the need to spend the extra $150 for it and haven't really thought I should upgrade mine. It's plenty of turntable for anything you or I do. Plus, there is actually an advantage to the steel or aluminum platter, they are heavier and tend to be slightly more stable. It's all about rotational mass!

A true believer like Crash would immediate notice it's flaws, but as far as I can hear it's stable and sounds good. I got mine at Gold Sound as well. They're an OK shop but only because they deal in used and less exotic equipment. I bought my speakers (Paradigm Mini Monitor v.5) at Cherry Creek Audio in their old store on Colorado but they had to order them, they didn't stock anything under $2k/pair.

I personally wouldn't bother with an automatic TT. Does anyone still make them new?

Those U-Turn TT look nice. Back when I got my Pro-Ject there was something of a void between the low and high end. Now there are a lot of choices. Also realize that it's a sliding scale. To audiophiles the Debut is entry level, to hipsters it's high end. In the end, it's a solid turntable that does what you need. It's at the low side of knee on the cost-benefit curve. To significantly improve a little you have to drop a lot more coin. To me the sweet spot is about $750, you can get a whole lot of turntable at that price point, but that's still a bit rich for my blood (say a Sota Moonbeam which would be about $900 with a mid grade Ortofon cart).

BTW, Music Hall would be my second choice at this level (look at the MMF-2.2). Also consider the Rega offerings. Thorens, Denon and Marantz still makes turntables, but couldn't tell you anything their models. Honestly, if I was going to replace my current table it would be a Debut Carbon most likely.

I know Dean has a similar level turntable, I want to say he got the Music Hall. He got his from Moondance way back when. John actually recommended the Debut to me since he'd already decided to close the shop.

40154

DaveInDenver
01-06-2015, 11:26 AM
I stand corrected, the Debut Carbon is in many ways a marked improvement on my Debut III. I don't have any reason to dislike my 'table but I would run, not walk, to get a Carbon...

http://www.analogplanet.com/content/pro-ject-produces-carbon-copy-debut-iii-thats

Hulk
01-06-2015, 01:38 PM
Thanks, Dave. I'm thinking that the Carbon will do everything I need. It's funny about music gear -- you can quickly get sucked down the hole of high-end vintage gear. I spent some time last night looking at the Thorens TD 124 turntables for sale on eBay last night. This morning I thought, just think of how much music (vinyl, digital, or tickets to live shows) I could buy for that kind of money. It gets crazy.

What's your opinion of the regular Carbon (http://shoplistenup.com/pro-ject-debut-carbon.html) vs. the Carbon DC (http://shoplistenup.com/pro-ject-debut-carbon-dc.html)?

rover67
01-06-2015, 02:25 PM
I found a Dual 1019 on c-list for $100 that I've been really happy with.

would it be worth considering something like that?

This guy sells them refurb'd:

http://www.fixmydual.com/

DaveInDenver
01-06-2015, 02:36 PM
The difference I believe is solely the power supply.

The regular Carbon uses the same 16V AC supply as my Debut III while the DC generates the motor driving power differently. It's still an AC motor, although only 9V, but is generated from a DC source (which is generated from the 120VAC mains (so yes, it's AC->DC->AC). In any case this will be much more stable. Otherwise they are the same but for $50 more it's hard to say it's not worth it to get the DC, it's clearly the better 'table out of the chute.

But realize that if you're thinking of a base turntable that you might want to upgrade later the non-DC might be a better choice. Pro-Ject offers improved power supplies called the Speed Box that along with being very stable allow you to switch between 33-1/3 and 45 without moving the belt. These are designed around their standard motors, which are 16V AC, so isn't going to be compatible with the DC. If you have a lot of 45s, not needing to lift the platter and move the belt is infinitely better.

BTW, the TT you show in your photo is the Debut Carbon DC Esprit SB. That's the one with the switch for 33/45. It's got a Speed Box built-in. It's not really saving you anything money-wise compared to a Carbon + Speed Box but is more compact than the combination of both and you get the acrylic platter more-or-less thrown in.

DaveInDenver
01-06-2015, 06:26 PM
This morning I thought, just think of how much music (vinyl, digital, or tickets to live shows) I could buy for that kind of money. It gets crazy.
This statement has been bouncing around in my head all day. It's the critical statement for most everything we do for hobbies. Spend enough to get a decent turntable and dump the rest into records. The analogy to trucks: bounce around in a stock pickup and have tons of money for gas to see places instead of shine an expensive build truck that you can't afford to feed.

To that end, Kirsten got me the 20th anniversary re-release of Hitchhike to Rhome (http://old97s.com/2014/10/13/hitchhike-to-rhome-reissue/) for Christmas. Sounds just fantastic on wax.

Hulk
01-06-2015, 07:20 PM
I found a Dual 1019 on c-list for $100 that I've been really happy with.

Very cool. My Dad still has an old early 60's Dual similar to this. I pinged him to see if he knows what model he has. He hasn't used it in at least a decade, but I'm sure he has plans now that he's finally retired (at age 75).


http://www.fixmydual.com/

Thanks for the link -- really cool business. It's worth noting that they don't work on my old table, which was an early 80s model. The older ones seem to be more desirable.

It's interesting to debate the pros and cons of seeking out a good vintage turntable (at a decent price) vs. simply dropping a few hundred bucks on a brand new, very good modern turntable with a warranty, all brand new parts, brand new cartridge, brand new needle, etc. I'm one of those people (like many of us here) that has an appreciation for older, very well-built machines. If I had the space and wasn't married to a lady who hates clutter, I could see collecting a bunch of vintage turntables, some tube amps, etc. But I hesitate to get sucked into another expensive hobby. I'm leaning towards simply buying a good new turntable to play my records... but it would certainly be cool to have something vintage and awesome.

DaveInDenver
01-06-2015, 08:34 PM
There is no single answer. Sometimes keeping old stuff going is fun, sometimes you just need something that works. For me, though, part of the allure of old stuff is working on it myself. Real 4x4s are built, not bought, right?

Blindranger
01-07-2015, 10:38 AM
Brilliant, I have been rocking an old Dual 1225 for decades, didn't realize people still supported these things. Obligatory pic of my rig in the pre-kid days.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/82/261133322_028d4029c3.jpg
(https://flic.kr/p/p5nQE)High Fidelity (https://flic.kr/p/p5nQE) by blindranger (https://www.flickr.com/people/94942458@N00/), on Flickr

DaveInDenver
01-07-2015, 10:50 AM
You know, if you're gonna show off the stereo at least hide the Herb Alpert.







Even though I have a thrift store copy of that same record. Just for the music, right?


You know, though, that's one point in favor of LPs. You can actually see the album art and read the liner notes! That's why Gen X is embracing vinyl again. We can't see anymore.

Hulk
01-11-2015, 01:51 PM
Purchased the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon DC yesterday. Works great, easy to set up. Listened to a Jeff Tweedy 45 on white vinyl that had never been played.

Dave, did you ever replace the thin felt? It's pretty flimsy.

DaveInDenver
01-12-2015, 12:23 PM
Congrats, you'll love it.

I still just use the stock felt static mat. You need to be careful if you use something else because the factory set up the arm based on this thickness. I agree that it seems flimsy but it seems to work OK and actually if you look up the price for a replacement it's like a $15 item.

BTW, I do use a Bren1 record weight. I give the platter a bit of a little wrist flick when starting with it.

Hulk
01-12-2015, 10:47 PM
BTW, I do use a Bren1 record weight. I give the platter a bit of a little wrist flick when starting with it.

Can you hear an audible difference with the Bren1? Pro-Ject offers the Clamp It record clamp (http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=clampit&cat=accessories&lang=en) which is only 1/3 as heavy as the Bren1.

Crash
01-12-2015, 11:31 PM
Welcome to the world of audiosis nervosa! Would you be able to hear an inaudible difference? ;)

DaveInDenver
01-13-2015, 07:43 AM
I think it helps, but I also have a lot of crappy records that aren't flat. The question of bearings and weight is what audiophiles sit around and argue, mostly it doesn't matter. The Pro-Ject one would be fine, too.

Rzeppa
01-13-2015, 11:19 PM
audiophiles sit around and argue, mostly it doesn't matter.

Best band - Led Zeppelin or Kiss? :lmao::lmao::lmao:

Hulk
01-13-2015, 11:38 PM
Best band - Led Zeppelin or Kiss? :lmao::lmao::lmao:

Answer: The Replacements.

Rzeppa
01-14-2015, 12:05 AM
Answer: The Replacements.

Meh. Too contemporary.

Crash
01-18-2015, 12:33 PM
Hope you are enjoying your new 'table, Hulk. Audio memory can be really sketchy but let us know how you think the Project sounds compared to the old rig. Good choice and I've found the next upgrade for you, once the excitement wears off of your purchase. It's a fairly inexpensive one that reaps great rewards. Reading in one of my audiophool magazines recently, it was mentioned that the $100 Ortophon Red cartridge that came with your 'table (right?) is the same body and internal construction as the cartridges higher up in that line. Replacing the stylus with one for the Ortophon Blue will render sound exactly like the $400 Blue. Cost for the replacement stylus is $99.
Bought any new records yet? Plenty of new and reissue records out there but they aren't cheap, are they?

Hulk
01-19-2015, 12:43 AM
Hope you are enjoying your new 'table, Hulk. Audio memory can be really sketchy but let us know how you think the Project sounds compared to the old rig. Good choice and I've found the next upgrade for you, once the excitement wears off of your purchase. It's a fairly inexpensive one that reaps great rewards. Reading in one of my audiophool magazines recently, it was mentioned that the $100 Ortophon Red cartridge that came with your 'table (right?) is the same body and internal construction as the cartridges higher up in that line. Replacing the stylus with one for the Ortophon Blue will render sound exactly like the $400 Blue. Cost for the replacement stylus is $99.
Bought any new records yet? Plenty of new and reissue records out there but they aren't cheap, are they?

I haven't bought any new records yet, but whew! they are expensive these days. Back when I was in high school, I could get 3 LPs for $10 when Peaches Records had a sale.

The upgrade idea is interesting, but at the moment I want to get some more playtime in what I have now. Some folks online swear by the acrylic platter, too. It's exciting to me just to have a turntable that works!

I also need to figure out a better home for my turnable. Believe it or not, I found a couple of cabinets that hold 12" records and a turntable at Urban Outfitters. Check these out:


Draper Media Console (http://www.urbanoutfitters.com/urban/catalog/productdetail.jsp?id=25772468#/)

Midcentury Console (http://www.urbanoutfitters.com/urban/catalog/productdetail.jsp?id=29959764#/)


If you have any good suggestions, I'm all ears.

DaveInDenver
01-19-2015, 07:45 AM
I would spend the $99 on records personally, but my ears don't discern quite as much anymore. I even <gasp> still buy and listen to CDs, mostly used. Second Spin runs deals and you can drop $40 and walk out with half a dozen pretty decent albums. I miss that about Denver, the Friday afternoon stop there on the way home and just browsing. There's jack for used or even new music up here.

Records don't have to be expensive. They're not as cheap as back in high school, but I don't always opt for the 180 gram pressing, either. A lot of bands press 120 gram records still and they usually go for about $10 to $12, so it's not bad. I find that a standard weight record sounds just fine with the record clamp. Nope, sometimes they ain't perfectly flat and the grooves are not as deep. I don't mind. Even run-of-the-mill vinyl sounds good.

The Ikea Kallax shelves are perfectly sized for 12" LPs. These replaced the discontinued the Expedit, which was sort of the go-to shelves for records. They are modular, we use a single column turned on its side as a low under-window cat perch that double as LP storage. Ikea is cool because you can change the look, mix-and-match doors and all that. But I'm preaching to the choir on that.

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/40275846/

http://riskyfuel.com/2014/12/06/i-bought-a-kallax-shelf-for-my-lps-and-the-world-didnt-end/

https://riskyfueldotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/kallax-ikea-red-2.jpg

My old Peach's crates were, last I checked, still in my dad's basement.

As for a media center, right now I have everything stacks precariously on a low, wide TV console. Rickety and far from ideal. I'm building a nice(ish) looking Flexy rack for my gear, probably using maple shelves and stainless all thread. The look is not for everyone, but the ability to change shelf spacing is handy when you're constantly tinkering.

http://www.andyspage.com/Photos/albums/WoodPictures/normal_Flexy1.jpg

Hulk
01-19-2015, 10:21 PM
Dave, thanks for posting these. I will definitely look into the Ikea stuff.

I have a question about hooking up speakers to more than one receiver. Right now, I have my old HK AVR30 receiver located beneath our TV. I have a center channel speaker, 2 front speakers, 2 rear speakers, and a subwoofer -- and all of these run to the receiver. (see diagram)

My problem is that I don't have a good place to put my turntable with this setup. I do have another good location in the back of the room (see diagram). I know that I can't extend the phono output 20 feet to connect to my receiver. One solution would be to relocate the receiver to put it with the turntable, and then connect the speakers from there.

I could extend the output from the TV through the crawl space all the way over to the receiver, but it wouldn't be ideal for several reasons. For example, the remote control wouldn't work to be able to adjust the volume if I move the receiver to a spot that has no LOS.

I'm thinking I could buy a newer A/V receiver to use with the TV/DVD/Roku/Boxee Box, so I could use my old HK receiver with the turntable. Here's the issue: I'd prefer to use the same speakers for both receivers. But I am guessing that if you hook two amplifiers to one set of speakers, the amplifier putting out a signal will drive that signal back into the other amp, potentially damaging one or both.

I did find this box, the Niles Audio DPS-1 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00006HOFR/103-0487478-1427825?v=glance), but a) it would probably run only the front speakers (no subwoofer), and b) it's $100, which is spendy.

Any ideas?

Rzeppa
01-20-2015, 12:28 AM
I'm not Dave, but I am an electronics engineer with 3 decades of experience, and in particular a lot of audio, both home and pro.

(1) Phono preamps (http://electronics.mcmelectronics.com/search?cataf=&view=list&w=phono+preamps&x=0&y=0) are inexpensive and would work fine to extend your phono signal to your receiver. You'd then have line level which would be good for many dozens of feet without any noticeable degradation. If you wanted to go further you could either go balanced low impedance or even digitize but that would be way overkill for this application.

(2) Never EVER connect the outputs of two amplifiers together, BAD JUJU. It would make the magic smoke (tech term). You need to switch them with a dual SPDT with the commons to the speakers and the inputs to your amps.

There was chat in this thread about the cost of vinyl. Back in the 1970s when I used to manage a record store (and yes we also sold 8 tracks and cassettes), a non-sale catalog LP retailed for $6.99. Sales albums were either $4.99 (loss leaders) or $5.99. Our cost on LPs was typically around five-six bucks. This was from distribution, because we seldom bought more than a hundred or so copies of a particular title at a time. I still own over a thousand albums and play them regularly. My turntable sits on top of those peach crates, the mass of all the albums (average 1/2 pound each) helps to keep the stylus from shaking when I turn up my Ted Nugent.

Crash
01-20-2015, 09:46 AM
NEVER place a turntable in a corner.

Hulk
01-24-2015, 04:36 AM
(1) Phono preamps (http://electronics.mcmelectronics.com/search?cataf=&view=list&w=phono+preamps&x=0&y=0) are inexpensive and would work fine to extend your phono signal to your receiver. You'd then have line level which would be good for many dozens of feet without any noticeable degradation.

Thanks, Jeff, this was the answer to my problem. I bought the Cambridge Audio Azur 551P (http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/hifi-and-home-cinema/azur-551p) today from Gold Sound. And holy cow, it sounds GREAT! I need to do a little A/B testing, but I have a feeling that this standalone phono preamp is a significant upgrade to what's built-in on my old H/K receiver. I was just blown away when I played some Paul Simon.

DaveInDenver
01-24-2015, 08:21 AM
Yup, that's not surprising. I believe the 551P is a 2-stage NE5532. This is a pretty common, good sounding topology (it's very faithful to the RIAA curve) phono stage at this level. It would likely benefit if you replaced all the caps. My bet is they are cheap generics. I don't find it necessary to use anything exotic, but it does help to use at least standard issue Panasonic, Rubycon, Nichcon, Sprague.

Rzeppa
01-24-2015, 11:52 PM
Glad that helped Matt. That less than 1 db spec on the RIAA curve is pretty much the main thing, other than the impedance matching between the cartridge and line level input of whatever preamp stage you are using. Balanced inputs are seldom found on home audio, they are mainly reserved for pro stuff.

As far as the quality of the caps, the good stuff is so cheap compared to how less cheap the Chinese stuff is, it's hard to imagine anyone using something that costs a penny or two less when they're manufacturing something for audiophiles.

That said, I have replaced all the electrolytic caps in the crossovers in my mains with Japanese manufactured polypropylene. They're kinda big and expensive, but the main difference in sound is at each end: The microphone (or in this case the stylus) and the speaker. Generally speaking, the amplifying (and equalizing) electronics in between is an order or more of magnitude down there in their effect on coloration as long as the gain structure is respected. The latter is least respected in pro audio - there are bunch of sound men out there who have no clue on gain structure. But that's kinda off this topic.

Really, when it comes to pushing audio signals around, impedance is a big deal. In general, you want the lowest impedance paths for your longest paths.