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RicardoJM
11-13-2010, 07:38 AM
I've been loosing coolant and recently it has gotten worse. I was a bit dumfounded as I could not see where the coolant was leaking from any of the hose connections, radiator, my oil was clean and my exhaust appeared to be clean. I did notice some staining under the water pump and so I replaced it on Monday evening. While doing so, I replaced my water pump mounting bolts. The coolant leak was still there. Yesterday evening, I found the source of my leak, several cracks on the engine block.

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/crackedblock/w_crack_01.jpg

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/crackedblock/w_crack_02.jpg

The telltale stains have been there since shortly after I installed the engine. I had wondered from time to time where they were coming from, now I don't have to wonder any more.

Jacket
11-13-2010, 07:56 AM
That sucks man, especially after all the work you've done to get your 40 running strong. Where did you source that engine from?

farnhamstj
11-13-2010, 08:01 AM
bummer

Air Randy
11-13-2010, 08:10 AM
He got it from me, after I got it from someone else. If I had only known......Little bugger ran good too and it was balanced and blue printed.

Well make it right though, I've got the 1.5F block that came out of my 74. We'll bore that out to match the pistons in Ricardo's engine and swap the balanced assembly over and he'll be good to go.

Dr. Schlegs
11-13-2010, 08:33 AM
He got it from me, after I got it from someone else. If I had only known......Little bugger ran good too and it was balanced and blue printed.

Well make it right though, I've got the 1.5F block that came out of my 74. We'll bore that out to match the pistons in Ricardo's engine and swap the balanced assembly over and he'll be good to go.

Your an upstanding man Randy!!!!! Ricardo sorry to hear that your hard work was for not.

subzali
11-13-2010, 08:38 AM
Sorry to hear about that Ricardo :(

frontrange
11-13-2010, 08:50 AM
That block was cracked back in the 80's when I owned it. I had a guy who specialized in welding cast iron come in from out of town to try his best to repair the crack. As he welded the original crack with nickel rod he'd peen the surrounding area to try to keep it from cracking again as it cooled. Japanese cast being what it is, there was no joy, it just kept cracking.

I repaired the cracks I found by grinding them out and filling them in with JB Weld because I didn't want to pull the engine out again. It did seem to hold for all these years, but the engine probably had no more than 20 miles on it. It seems there are still some hairline cracks that have opened up. I wouldn't have reinstalled it without swaping the guts into a new block, but that's water over the dam now. You might want to try doing what I did back in the eighties and just grind the cracks out and JB Weld them. It did hold a pressure test back then after the first repair.

waggoner5
11-13-2010, 09:01 AM
You can clearly see the repairs in Ricardos pics. Best of luck on the swap Ricardo. Bummer.

treerootCO
11-13-2010, 09:22 AM
I have two 2F builders if you need a new block. Free to a good home :).

My North engine is - 441050 = Mar '80
My South engine is - 334175 = Dec '78

frontrange
11-13-2010, 09:33 AM
I have two 2F builders if you need a new block. Free to a good home :).

My North engine is - 441050 = Mar '80
My South engine is - 334175 = Dec '78

I've been trying to source another 2F block for ages, can I call dibs on one in trade for a case of your favorite :beer: cash, whatever?

PhatFJ
11-13-2010, 10:15 AM
Really sorry about this Ricardo!! I know how hard you have worked on this motor.. Good luck with the replacement!!

Brian

Rzeppa
11-13-2010, 02:25 PM
I've also got a spare F builder you are welcome to for free Ricardo. Was running when pulled, just needed machining and freshening - you are familiar with the story from 2006 - I pulled it when it started getting rod knock on the way to Moab. Vintage is January of 1971.

RicardoJM
11-13-2010, 05:52 PM
It is a bummer, and it is also another great learning experience. I appreciate all the offers of blocks and stuff:D. I've got the block from the F.5 that was in the Mule. I tore it down today and sure enough the bearing on #3 had spun again; not that it matters as the crankshaft will not be used. The last photo didn't come out too good, but it is pretty cool that it all fit into the LX470. It was a busy day in Randy's shop; he was working on an ARB for the Mule, Satchel stopped by to look at his steering and I tore down my first engine. :thumb:

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/crackedblock/w_cracked_03.jpg

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/crackedblock/w_cracked_04.jpg

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/crackedblock/w_cracked_05.jpg

Now I have to decide if I want to

Rebuild the bottom end, pretty easy as I have a new camshaft and bearings.
Move the balanced assembly that is in my truck now, bit more complex as I would have to pull and tear down the engine so the machine shop can prep the new block.


Option 1 will get the rig back up and running in less time. Option 2 might save a few bucks but could take a bit longer to work through. Either way, I am very appreciative to the club and especially Randy. Fact is I feel really prepared to tackle this because of all the experience that I have been able to pick up working on my truck and the jobs I've been able to lend him a hand on.

Rzeppa
11-13-2010, 10:43 PM
Sounds like you had a good day wrenchin' all things considered.

60wag
11-14-2010, 07:19 AM
I'd put the balanced assembly in the new block. Every time you wind it up to 3500 rpm, you'll know it was worth it rather than wishing you had made the effort.

RockRunner
11-15-2010, 07:50 PM
X2, you have the stuff so you might as well use it. Do you need to have the 40 running for some reason sooner than later?

theboomboom
11-15-2010, 08:42 PM
X2, you have the stuff so you might as well use it. Do you need to have the 40 running for some reason sooner than later?

It's my little brother's DD, his school parking permit is on the windshield.

RicardoJM
11-16-2010, 09:31 AM
I am going to swap over the balanced rotating assembly from the block in my engine. Fact is aside from the cracked block, the engine runs real strong. While I haven't updated my cracked distributor shaft thread, Randy and I resolved that issue. Heading south on I-25, the engine gets the truck up to 80 mph heading up Surrey Ridge. There is still the possibility that the new block may not work with my stuff, but I won't know until the machine shop gets a chance to inspect it all. HutHut can drive the Bronco while the FJ40 is down, but hopefully it won't be down too long.

I took the truck out to the shop Sunday and yesterday evening prepped it for pulling the engine/trany/t-case out.

I pulled out my hand written notes from this summer and found them to be very usefull. I have not memorized all the bolt/nut sizes and it saved me a bunch of time to be able to see what was needed for each step. It was also a nice that I had a checklist to follow.

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/crackedblock/w_cracked_07.jpg

I started working at about 4:00 and by 8:30 everything (but the engine mount bolts) is out of the way and ready to pull. This is what it all looked like when I started work.

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/crackedblock/w_cracked_08.jpg

And here is what it looked like when I knocked off for the evening.

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/crackedblock/w_cracked_12.jpg

Passenger side
http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/crackedblock/w_cracked_09.jpg

Drivers side
http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/crackedblock/w_cracked_10.jpg

Here is a better photo of the drivers side of the block and the stains from the cracked block.

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/crackedblock/w_cracked_11.jpg

The tech tip from this exercise - use a 5 gallon bucket and improvised "funnel" (cut up plastic water bottle) to capture the coolant. This system focused the draining coolant and eliminated the typical mess that occurs from the coolant hitting the tie rods and splashing beyond the container.

Jacket
11-16-2010, 09:55 AM
Isn't it amazing how much better and faster you are at something the 2nd time you do it? Not that you wanted to do this a second time.....

RicardoJM
11-16-2010, 12:10 PM
Isn't it amazing how much better and faster you are at something the 2nd time you do it? Not that you wanted to do this a second time.....

Better yes, faster - I suppose so, but still not as fast as someone who does this sort of thing for a living. I gave Randy a hand with Mule engine swap, so this was the 3rd time since this summer:D.

Air Randy
11-16-2010, 04:04 PM
Not that you wanted to do this a second time.....

I'm not so sure about that. Ricardo was thrilled he got to disassemble the Mule motor down to the bare block, and now he's all excited about getting everything back from the machine shop and re-assembling it.

He has his notebook all laid out and fresh batteries in his camera, so I'm sure the entire process will be well documented :thumb:

RicardoJM
11-17-2010, 08:18 AM
A very big shout out to Nattybummpo for giving me a hand with pulling the engine/tranny/t-case and getting the engine on the stand:D. An extra set of hands and eyes really makes the work safer and smoother. Most of you already know Sascha, but for those that don't - here he is enjoying a well deserved root-beer at the end of the wrenching.

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/crackedblock/w_cracked_13.jpg

Once again, my engine bay is empty. Last time it was like this I had intentions of cleaning it up. Well, I didn't get around to doing that:o.

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/crackedblock/w_cracked_14.jpg

The evenings work went smoothly. We removed the "ears" of the engine mounts once the load was on the hoist. This small step only takes a few minutes but really helps with any clearance issues when pulling everything out.

The 5 gallon bucket continued to work well for capturing the coolant from the block. Once we had the engine on the stand, we rotated it, removed the drain plug, stabbed the muck with a screw driver and caught every drop in the bucket. Now, I need to figure out how to capture the cup or two that always falls out the water pump when the engine is pulled. It isn't much and paper towel soaks up most of it - but it would be nice to not have to clean any up from the floor.

Next step will be to tear down my engine so that the pistons, connecting rods, crank shaft camshaft and "new" block can be taking to the machine shop.

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/crackedblock/w_cracked_15.jpg

corsair23
11-17-2010, 05:59 PM
Once again, my engine bay is empty. Last time it was like this I had intentions of cleaning it up. Well, I didn't get around to doing that:o.

Might as well get it done this time around :hill: :thumb:

Now, I need to figure out how to capture the cup or two that always falls out the water pump when the engine is pulled. It isn't much and paper towel soaks up most of it - but it would be nice to not have to clean any up from the floor.

Doggy potty training pads...no joke. Get the biggest ones you can find an just set one or two under the area and they will soak up that coolant no problem and no mess :D - I use them when I change the oil in the LX and the 80 because no matter what I've tried, I still can't get the oil filter out without it dripping oil all over. One pad, strategically positioned, catches all of the oil before it makes a mell of a hess :)

RicardoJM
11-19-2010, 08:46 AM
The lower end parts (block, pistons, crankshaft, camshaft, bearing caps and bolts) were dropped off at the machine shop this morning. They will be hot tanked and then inspected to confirm the block can be machined to work with the balanced rotating assembly. Along with the machine work, new bearings, rings, gaskets and freeze plugswill sourced by the machine shop. The head, timing gears and oil pump are in very good condition and will be reused.

The tear down of the cracked block engine went very smoothly. Sascha joined me and Randy got back from his business trip as we were getting ready to pull the pistons. The tear down work is something that an individual can do but it is nice to have some company to shoot the breeze with and help with the "heavier" parts; head and crank shaft.

The tear down of an F.5/2F engine is a fairly straight forward process. A 2F Factory Service Manual is a very good reference to have available. A single person can tear down the engine, but an extra hand is nice for removing the head, pistons and crankshaft.

The basic steps involve;

Remove the "TOP"
Remove the "FRONT"
Remove the "BOTTOM"
Remove the "ROTATING ASSEMBLY"


The engine should be mounted to an engine stand. These engines are long and heavy, while a 750lb stand will work in a pinch, if you can - use a larger, more stable stand. A four wheel engine stand make everything more stable.

There are going to be a bunch of bolts, nuts and washers that will be removed. Labeling and bagging them will keep things together nicely. Once you have done a few of these, you will likely just put all of them in a cofee can - but as I am stil somewhat new to this labled bags is the way I roll.

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/crackedblock/w_cracked_15.jpg

Remove the TOP
Remove the 4 nuts that hold the valve cover on the top of the block and remove the valve cover.

The rocker arm assembly needs to be removed. The nuts and bolts involved are 17mm, 14mm and 12mm in size. Deep impact sockets and an impact wrench make quick work of removing them.

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/crackedblock/w_cracked_17.jpg

With the nuts, bolts and lock washers removed, the rocker assembly can be lifted up and removed from the head.

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/crackedblock/w_cracked_18.jpg

Remove the 12 push rods. These lift right up. In my research, I have determined that many recommend keeping track of the order of each of these rods so they can be returned to their original holes.

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/crackedblock/w_cracked_19.jpg

Using a 19mm size deep impact socket, remove the head bolts. With the head bolts removed, the head can now be lifted up and removed from the block. Sometimes the head may be firmly affixed to the block, in these situations there is a slot that a screw driver/small pry bar can be inserted into to pry them appart. My head lifted straight off. The head is a big block of iron and weighs approximately 50lbs.

Remove the small bolts from the engine side cover and remove the engine side cover.

Rotate the engine so that the lifters slide out of the block. As with the push rods, the recommendation is to keep these in order so that they go back in the same holes. As each lifter was removed, I cleaned it up with brake cleaner and wrote its number on the bottom before putting them in the bag.

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/crackedblock/w_cracked_20.jpg

The top is now removed. I left my thermostat housing attached to my head. As the work that I am doing is all on the block, there was no need to remove the housing.

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/ricardojm/crackedblock/w_cracked_21.jpg


Remove the FRONT
Wow, I'm woefully lacking any photos of this part of the operation. The steps are:

Bend the locking tabs flat on the big-ole-nut
Remove the big-ole-nut
Remove the harmonic balancer/pulley
Remove the small bolts and large bolts form the Timing cover
Remove the timing cover
Remove the oil slinger (note: later 2Fs don't have an oil slinger)
Remove the flat screws and two bolts that hold on the timing plate
Remove the timing plate
Remove the two bolts that hold the camshaft, don't remove the camshaft yet.

As I will be re-installing the camshaft and crankshaft into the new block, I did not remove the timing gears.

Remove the BOTTOM
Ok, no pictures here either. The steps are:

Remove the water pump.
Rotate the engine so that the oil pan points to the sky.
Remove the oil pan bolts and remove the oil pan.
Remove the oil pump assembly from the engine.


Remove the ROTATING ASSEMBLY
I guess I really got into the work, cause photos here are also MIA. There are details here that are very important to keep track of and they all have to do with knowing how to put the pistions back in the exact place and orientation when they get re-installed.

In my engine, each piston assembly is stamped with the cylinder number in two places; on the connecting rod and connecting rod cap. These stamps were facing the distributor side of the engine. These stamps are very usefull as they tell me which cylinder a piston goes in, what the orientation of the piston should be and which caps go with each connecting rod. If you do not have these stamps (or similar markings) take appropriate steps to make sure you can put them back in the same cylinders and with the same orientation. If I did not have these marks, Randy has a stamp set that I would have used to put them in place.

Now is when I removed the camshaft. It is much easier to remove the camshaft with the oil pump out of the way.

The pistons are removed one at a time. Before removing pistons, you should inspect the top of the cylinders to determine if there is a ridge that needs to be reamed away. As my engine is realtively fresh, there was no ridge to remove.

To remove a pistion, you remove the nuts that hold the connecting rod to the connecting rod cap. You then tap (carefully) the threaded post of the connecting rod to start the piston on its way. Then remove the connecting rod cap and bearing. Next, continue to tap (carefully) the threaded post of the connecting rod until the piston is out of the engine block. A second set of hands is very handy to hold the connecting rod straight and not allow it to damage the cylinder walls. Then put the connecting rod cap back on the connecting rod and the nuts.

You will have easy access to two piston assemblies at a time. Temporarily re-install the big-ole-nut so that you can rotate the crankshaft to get easier access to the next pair of piston assemblies. A wooden handle works very well to prevent damaging the threaded post of the connecting rod. Tapping them out, does not required pounding on them.

With the pistons removed, you are now ready to remove the four main caps. Each of these is physically different, but at first glance the two in the middle look alot alike.

After removing the main caps, you can lift out the crankshaft. The crankshaft is also heavy. The use of nylon straps to cradle the crankshaft and a second set of hands makes this step easy.

Finally, make a pass around the block to remove some of the items that you see; spark plugs, oil pressure sender, coolant plug, etc. Do not remove the oil pump mounting block.

MDH33
11-19-2010, 10:16 AM
Super bummed to hear about your engine troubles, Ricardo. :(

But, I'm looking forward to your rebuild thread! ;)

If you ever get a hankering to pull an FJ60 motor and rebuild it, let me know. I would love some help with that project someday. :hill:

RicardoJM
11-19-2010, 10:46 AM
If you ever get a hankering to pull an FJ60 motor and rebuild it, let me know. I would love some help with that project someday. :hill:

I'm not sure I'll ever get the hankering :D - but I would definitely be up for lending a hand with your the engine rebuild. Aside from it being a bit like work, this project has really been one of the more exciting/fun ones that I have taken on. My experience (limited as it is) and knowledge all seem to be coming together on this gig. Sascha also has a back burner engine rebuild project and I'm looking forward to giving him a hand with that as well. Many in the club have rebuilt engines, this is my first and I have to admit it is really cool to see and better understand how it all works:thumb:.

Rzeppa
11-19-2010, 10:31 PM
The lower end parts (block, pistons, crankshaft, camshaft, bearing caps and bolts) were dropped off at the machine shop this morning. They will be hot tanked and then inspected to confirm the block can be machined to work with the balanced rotating assembly

I am assuming the pistons won't be hot tanked?

RicardoJM
11-20-2010, 07:27 AM
I am assuming the pistons won't be hot tanked?

I just re-read that sentence. The pistons are there so the machine shop can bore out the new block to match.

Air Randy
11-20-2010, 09:41 AM
Super bummed to hear about your engine troubles, Ricardo. :(

But, I'm looking forward to your rebuild thread! ;)

If you ever get a hankering to pull an FJ60 motor and rebuild it, let me know. I would love some help with that project someday. :hill:

You are always welcome to bring it over here. We can rebuild it pretty quick. It's like "Field of Dreams", if you bring it, Ricardo will come :D Trust me, he can't stay away from something like this.

MDH33
12-05-2010, 08:28 PM
You are always welcome to bring it over here. We can rebuild it pretty quick. It's like "Field of Dreams", if you bring it, Ricardo will come :D Trust me, he can't stay away from something like this.

That's a very generous offer. Thanks Randy. When the time comes, I'll take you (and Ricardo ;) ) up on it. :thumb:

subzali
12-06-2010, 08:23 AM
Ricardo, have you thought about replacing the elastomer timing gears with a solid steel timing gear set? Since you have it apart anyway...

See Here (http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/87140-best-2f-3.html#post1048995) and Here (http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/87140-best-2f-14.html#post1383913) from This Thread (http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/87140-best-2f.html)

RicardoJM
12-06-2010, 08:50 AM
Ricardo, have you thought about replacing the elastomer timing gears with a solid steel timing gear set? Since you have it apart anyway...

See Here (http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/87140-best-2f-3.html#post1048995) and Here (http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/87140-best-2f-14.html#post1383913) from This Thread (http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/87140-best-2f.html)

No I will not be replacing the timing gears. I did not even remove the timing gears from the cam or crank during the tear down. If I went this route, I would use the timing gears that we installed on the Mule a few months ago, they are/were brand new and are solid.

I stopped by the machine shop last week to drop off freeze plugs and they pointed out a small chip (likely from a puller) on the small gear but it will be fine. Both cam and crank are good. New bearings and rings will be installed, but everything else from the bottom end of the engine is "just being moved over". The head will go back on, didn't even remove the thermostat housing. Aside from the cracked block, the engine was/is great.

subzali
12-08-2010, 04:46 PM
Ricardo,

Which machine shop are you using for the work? And how difficult is it to get the engine there in pieces? Is the block light enough when stripped down that far that two people can handle it? When do you expect it back?

Waiting with bated breath...:)

Air Randy
12-08-2010, 05:09 PM
Ricardo,

Which machine shop are you using for the work? And how difficult is it to get the engine there in pieces? Is the block light enough when stripped down that far that two people can handle it? When do you expect it back?

Waiting with bated breath...:)

He just called me from Gunn Automotive on So. Federal, he picked everything up and is on his way over tonight. We'll get the block mounted on the engine stand and I'm sure he'll be rarin' to get started putting it back together.

60wag
12-08-2010, 06:10 PM
Sounds like we have a project for the Christmas party?

Air Randy
12-08-2010, 08:14 PM
Sounds like we have a project for the Christmas party?

Anything is possible:hill:

He just left here so we are planning to put it back together on Sunday, so anyone that wants to join the fun should swing on by.

RicardoJM
12-08-2010, 09:56 PM
Ricardo,

Which machine shop are you using for the work? And how difficult is it to get the engine there in pieces? Is the block light enough when stripped down that far that two people can handle it? When do you expect it back?

Waiting with bated breath...:)

Gunn is the machine shop. The called today, I picked it up and it is in Randy's shop ready to be put back together.

It is not difficult at all to get it there. The block stripped down is still heavy. I use the engine hoist to load it. Two strong backs could handle it, but I would still use a hoist:D.

Why all the questions - you looking at rebuilding an engine?

subzali
12-09-2010, 08:10 AM
Sorta :o

I'm finding oil in my air cleaner, which is telling me that I'm getting excessive blowby and it won't be long before I'm going to need to tear it down and, at minimum, have the cylinders honed and re-ringed, and I was thinking of having it balanced at the same time. My engine has already been bored 0.040" over (or so it's been told to me) and the head has been shaved a tad, so I don't have much room to play with. Course it's probably gonna be at least a couple of years before I take this step, but I just like to have time to think these things through and have some ideas in my back pocket. That way I know exactly what I want when the time comes. Hope it comes back together well, depending on what happens I may stop by on Sunday and hang out with you guys :thumb:

FJBRADY
12-09-2010, 08:10 AM
Sounds like we have a project for the Christmas party?

I am in on the project, but I want to stay clean and just drink Randy's beers.:drink: This time

Air Randy
12-09-2010, 08:31 AM
I want to stay clean and just drink Randy's beers.:drink:

Thats all you ever do, why change now? :D You will have to stand outside and peer in through the window to watch the proceedings unless you bring :beer: with you. :cheers:

Air Randy
12-09-2010, 08:36 AM
I'm going to need to tear it down and, at minimum, have the cylinders honed and re-ringed

Thats really easy to do. Pop the head and oil pan off, yank the pistons, install new rings & rod bearings, put it all back together. If you start in the morning with 2 people that know what they're doing, you'll have it running again that evening.

Thats what I did 2 years ago on the mule motor, worked great. I have a cylinder hone, we might have to borrow a ridge reamer from Autozone but thats about it. You're probably looking at $150 or less for rings, bearings and gaskets. I'm sure this is something Ricardo would love to participate in :thumb:

FJBRADY
12-09-2010, 08:49 AM
You will have to stand outside and peer in through the window to watch the proceedings unless you bring :beer: with you. :cheers:

Noted :drumsticks:

RicardoJM
12-09-2010, 10:16 AM
Thats really easy to do. Pop the head and oil pan off, yank the pistons, install new rings & rod bearings, put it all back together. If you start in the morning with 2 people that know what they're doing, you'll have it running again that evening.

Thats what I did 2 years ago on the mule motor, worked great. I have a cylinder hone, we might have to borrow a ridge reamer from Autozone but thats about it. You're probably looking at $150 or less for rings, bearings and gaskets. I'm sure this is something Ricardo would love to participate in :thumb:

Yeah, that would be a great project to be involved in. We would get to use the new SST that I dropped off at Randy's yesterday. :D

nattybumppo
12-10-2010, 10:32 PM
Thats really easy to do. Pop the head and oil pan off, yank the pistons, install new rings & rod bearings, put it all back together. If you start in the morning with 2 people that know what they're doing, you'll have it running again that evening.

Thats what I did 2 years ago on the mule motor, worked great. I have a cylinder hone, we might have to borrow a ridge reamer from Autozone but thats about it. You're probably looking at $150 or less for rings, bearings and gaskets. I'm sure this is something Ricardo would love to participate in :thumb:

Maybe this is the best course of action for me. What do you guys think? Here's the facts: My spare engine seems to be in bad shape. Compression test numbers, cold, were 107/100/80/40/74/111. Not so good. I also know it has been rebuilt before, so it may well already be bored out. I'm tinking its a pile of spare parts.

However, the engine in my 40 now had pretty good compression. Warm and dry it was 131/120/132/130/113/130. When we did the wet test to cylinders 2 and 5 which were the low ones, they came up to 131/130. That would make it pretty darn good. The engine runs pretty well, but smokes a fair bit. Maybe that is from 2 and 5, huh. So would an in-truck hone and ring job on 2 and 5 fix me up, or should I do 'em all while i'm in there?

Of course, the other problem is that the rear and front main seals leak like a hooker with a colostomy bag. Also the clutch seems to be wearing down and the tranny/tfer seal is bad, so maybe it would be worth pulling the whole shbang out and fix it all at once. Thoughts anyone?

Air Randy
12-11-2010, 08:02 AM
Does it smoke worse when it's cold and you first start it up or does it smoke all of the time when you're driving it? Point being that it could be valve guides and seals contributing to your smoking in addition to the rings.

For me, if you're going to pull the head off anyways, I recommend you send the head to Gunn and have them do a complete valve job including guides, seals, deck the head, etc. You could pull the head off of your spare motor and get it rebuilt in advance so you can still make it a weekend job.

Along the same lines, if you're going to drop the oil pan it's better to hone and re-ring all cylinders while you're in there.

My advice though, since you also have issues with leaking seals, failing clutch, etc. is to go ahead and disassemble your spare motor and take it to Gunn. Just because it's been rebuilt before doesn't mean it can't be bored out more, depends on how much they took out the first time. If your crank is bad I have a good one thats cheap. I would do a full rebuild on the spare so you end up with a new motor. Its about the same amount of work to pull the old engine and drop the new one in as it is to do an in-chassis rebuild. And you can replace the clutch and tranny/TC seals at the same time.

Keep in mind too, an in-chassis re-ring is sort of a stop gap measure. Depending on how worn your cylinders are it may only give you a marginal increase in compression and will wear out sooner.

If you rebuild your spare it will be just like a new motor and go forever (well almost).

nattybumppo
12-11-2010, 08:47 AM
It smokes most noticeably when I start it up, cold or warm. Gunn can mic the cylinder walls for me to see where its at if I bring him the block, right?

Air Randy
12-11-2010, 11:31 AM
It smokes most noticeably when I start it up, cold or warm. Gunn can mic the cylinder walls for me to see where its at if I bring him the block, right?

If you get most of your smoke on startup versus when you are driving, that usually indicates worn valve guides & seals.

Whats the elevation where you live? Are your compression numbers adjusted for altitude already or is that what the guage actually read? Just curious.

Yes, Mr. Gunn will mic the cylinder walls and crank and tell you if they are rebuildable before he starts any of the work. He can also get you a master rebuild kit that includes pistons, rings, bearings and all gaskets & seals. Tell him you're with the Toyota club and he'll give you a really good price. He already sells you the parts at cost plus 10% so his prices usually can't be beat.

nattybumppo
12-11-2010, 01:04 PM
Thanks, Randy. You should just about be due for a free engine job as much business as you send to Gunn's! I live in Denver, 5280 feet ad those were the raw numbers.

Air Randy
12-11-2010, 01:19 PM
Thanks, Randy. You should just about be due for a free engine job as much business as you send to Gunn's! I live in Denver, 5280 feet ad those were the raw numbers.

I wish. So your worst cylinder adjusted for altitude is 133 psi, next worse is 141 and the rest are almost 150. 150 is what they should be new at sea level. Generally speaking it sounds like the rings aren't in too bad of shape.

subzali
12-11-2010, 09:11 PM
...Keep in mind too, an in-chassis re-ring is sort of a stop gap measure. Depending on how worn your cylinders are it may only give you a marginal increase in compression and will wear out sooner.

If you rebuild your spare it will be just like a new motor and go forever (well almost).

Why is there any difference between honing in-chassis vs. rebuild/hone in a machine shop? I mean, the honed cylinders have to broken in either way, and if the rest of it's good...

:confused:

Air Randy
12-12-2010, 05:22 PM
Why is there any difference between honing in-chassis vs. rebuild/hone in a machine shop? I mean, the honed cylinders have to broken in either way, and if the rest of it's good...

:confused:

Because all you can do in-chassis is hone the cylinders and use the same size piston rings you just took out. If the block goes to the machine shop they can bore the cylinders to take out the uneven wear and allow you to put in oversize pistons/rings so the engine seals up like new.

nattybumppo
01-22-2011, 12:04 PM
I wish. So your worst cylinder adjusted for altitude is 133 psi, next worse is 141 and the rest are almost 150. 150 is what they should be new at sea level. Generally speaking it sounds like the rings aren't in too bad of shape.

These are words of wisdom. I can't afford a full engine rebuild right now since I can't use credit cards at Gunn's, so the plan is as follows.

1) Take the head in to Gunn for a rebuild.

2) Possibly do an in-truck hone and re-ring as Randy described earlier in this thread, although as noted above, they probably aren't too bad, except in #2 and maybe #5. (Drop oil pan, remove pistons, hone and ream all cylinders, replace rings and main bearings, right?)

3) Replace the rear and front main seals.

4) Possible replace the transmission/transfer case seal, though this is not critical since I have that return kit installed so there is a bandaid fix in place.

5) Install my Aussie locker in the rear, with bearing replacement if necessary since I have those parts ready to go.

6) Inspect the front knuckles and rebuild if necessary since I have a kit ready to go. (I think they are OK since I did the front axle service at the WBPP last spring, though we didn't touch the knuckles.)

7) Adjust the parking brake and clutch (grinds going into reverse only).

8) Flush the coolant and the brake fluid.

And voila! MOAB READY.

Randy, is your shop still available starting Monday, February 7? Ricardo, are you available for guidance and some moral support? Anybody else want to help/laugh at my feeble attempts at real mechanics?

Air Randy
01-22-2011, 01:07 PM
I won't be here during the week but you and Ricardo and any other helpers you line up are welcome to use the shop.

I'm willing to bet most of your compression loss is from poorly seating valves that the new valve job will fix. On the other hand it's pretty easy to drop the oil pan at that point and replace the rings & rod bearings. Eespecially if you plan to replace the front seal requiring you to also remove the timing cover.

As far as the rear main seal, keep in mind you will also have to drop the tranny/TC in order to replace it. So you might as well replace the clutch & pressure plate at the same time too.

nattybumppo
01-22-2011, 02:42 PM
Thanks, Randy. I'll put in a good stock of beer!

RicardoJM
01-22-2011, 04:58 PM
I'm up for giving you a hand with the work:D.

That is a bummer about the finances for a machine work on the bottom end. It will be easy enough to replace rings and bearings and if there is not significant wear on the cylinder walls and journals - everything on the bottom end should be just fine for a while. That is good you will be having the head done.

I keep going back and forth in my mind if it would be better/easier to pull everything out of the truck or leave the engine in the truck. To do the rear main seal and clutch, the transmission and t-case need to come out. installing oil pan and side cover gaskets is a bit easier with the engine on the stand. Of course, leaving the engine in - minimizes the risk of mislabeling your engine mounts and the ensuing cuss fest:D. Either approach will work.

The locker can be done separate from the engine/drive train stuff. It is a pretty straight forward job that should easily be knocked out in an evening. I would think you front is ok, but a full rebuild (including trunion bearings) would remove any doubt whatsoever.

Air Randy
01-22-2011, 09:49 PM
Yep, I would be really tempted to just pull it and do the engine work on the stand. Especially since you need to do the clutch too. You may also want to take one of the spare flywheels I have and get it resurfaced while you're at it. That way you can do a first class job on the clutch rebuild. You could also replace the main bearings at the same time and do the rear main seal much easier if you do it that way.

Plus, since it would take a few days to get it all done, you may be able to get someone to split the tranny/TC case apart and help you replace that seal too while you're at it.

I have a feeling that letting the parts get mis-labeled this time won't be an issue :D

nattybumppo
01-23-2011, 12:50 AM
I have a good spare flywheel to turn, and a pretty good looking clutch too. I was thinking it might be overall easier to pull the engine out also, especially since Ricardo can do that with his eyes closed by now...

Air Randy
01-23-2011, 08:48 AM
I have a good spare flywheel to turn, and a pretty good looking clutch too. I was thinking it might be overall easier to pull the engine out also, especially since Ricardo can do that with his eyes closed by now...

I think that is your best bet. Plus Ricardo just loves to paint stuff so he'll be able to get his fix better with it on the stand.

FJBRADY
01-23-2011, 08:52 AM
Plus Ricardo just loves to paint stuff

:thumb:

Beater
01-23-2011, 08:52 AM
you know., just scanned this thread for the first time. amazing teamwork.