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Air Randy
01-05-2011, 11:40 PM
Reference the discussion held tonight at the club meeting, here is a copy of the Colorado law regarding personal liability when using an AED. I've highlighted the important sections. The requirements under section 3 are doable but significant, but should not apply in our case. We are a non-profit club without a fixed location. Our usage would fall under section 4 which specifically exempts you from the section 3 requirements.

Colorado AED Law
HB 99-1283

HOUSE BILL 99-1283 Colorado General Assembly

BY REPRESENTATIVES Spence, Coleman, Witwer, Decker, Kester, King, Lawrence, Stengel, Swenson, Tapia, Vigil, and Webster; also SENATORS Blickensderfer, Congrove, Epps, Hernandez, Maritnez, Musgrave, Reeves, Tebedo, and Weddig.

Concerning limited immunity for the use of automated external defibrillators in emergency situations.

Be it enacted by the General Assembly of the State of Colorado:

SECTION 10 Part 1 of article 21 of title 13, Colorado Revised Statutes, is amended BY THE ADDITION OF A NEW SECTION to read:

13-21-108.1. Persons rendering emergency assistance through the use of automated external defibrillators - limited immunity.
(1) The general assembly hereby declares that it is the intent of the general assembly to encourage the use of automated external defibrillators for the purpose of saving the lives of people in cardiac arrest.

(2) As used in this section, unless the context otherwise requires:

(a) "AED" or "defibrillator" means an automated external defibrillator that:

(I) Has received approval of its premarket notification filed pursuant to 21 U.S.C. sec. 360 (k), from the federal food and drug administration;

(II) Is capable of recognizing the presence or absence of ventricular fibrillation or rapid ventricular tachycardia, and is capable of determining, without intervention by an operator, whether defibrillation should be performed; and

(III) Upon determining that defibrillation should be performed, automatically charges and requests delivery of an electrical impulse to an individual's heart.

(b) "Licensed physician" means a physician licensed to practice medicine in this state.

(3) (a) In order to ensure public health and safety, a person or entity who acquires an AED shall ensure that:

(I) Expected AED users receive training in cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) and AED use through a course approved by the department of public health and environment;

(II) The defibrillator is maintained and tested according to the manufacturer's operational guidelines and that written records are maintained of this maintenance and testing;

(III) There is involvement of a licensed physician in the program at the site of the AED to ensure compliance with requirements for training, notification, and maintenance;

(IV) There are written plans in place concerning the placement of AED's, training of personnel, pre-planned coordination with the emergency medical services system, medical oversight, AED maintenance, identification of personnel authorized to use AED's, and reporting of AED utilization, which written plans have been reviewed and approved by a licensed physician;

(V) Any person who renders emergency care or treatment to a person in cardiac arrest by using an AED activates the emergency medical services system as soon as possible and reports any clinical use of the AED to the licensed physician affiliated with the program.

(b) Any person or entity that acquires an AED shall notify an agent of the applicable emergency communications or vehicle dispatch center of the existence, location, and type of AED.

(4) (a) Any person or entity whose primary duties do not include the provision of health care and who, in good faith and without compensation, renders emergency care or treatment by the use of an AED shall not be liable for any civil damages for acts or omissions made in good faith as a result of such care or treatment or as a result of any act or failure to act in providing or arranging further medical treatment, unless the acts or omissions were grossly negligent or willful and wanton.
(b) The immunity provided in paragraph (a) of this subsection (4) extends to the licensed physician who is involved with AED site placement, the person or entity who provides the CPR and AED site placement, and the person or entity responsible for the site where the AED is located.

(c) The immunity provided in this subsection (4) applies only if the requirements of subsection (3) of this section are met.

(5) The requirements of subsection (3) of this section shall not apply to any individual using an AED during a medical emergency if that individual is acting as a good samaritan under section 13-21-108.
SECTION 20 Safety clause. The general assembly hereby finds, determines, and declares that this act is necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace, health, and safety.

wesintl
01-06-2011, 08:45 AM
probably worth it to buy one for club runs, rally etc.

What about rentals for trails just like sat phones?

http://www.worldwideaed.com/Rental/AEDRental.htm

farnhamstj
01-06-2011, 09:15 AM
Perhaps encouraging all of our members and friends to better their quality of life would serve our club better than a machine intended to bring you back from the dead?

People don't go into ventricular fibrillation for no apparent reason, it is the result of poor lifestyle choices.

Treat you body as well as you treat your truck. No BackWoodsGoop in our axles.

Eat real food and get some excercise.

Hulk
01-06-2011, 09:41 AM
We have a lot of guests at CM from other clubs. If we zap one of them back to having a beating heart, it would make a lot of people happy. We started renting sat phones before we needed them. This falls into the same category.

Air Randy
01-06-2011, 10:21 AM
Perhaps encouraging all of our members and friends to better their quality of life would serve our club better than a machine intended to bring you back from the dead?

People don't go into ventricular fibrillation for no apparent reason, it is the result of poor lifestyle choices.

Treat you body as well as you treat your truck. No BackWoodsGoop in our axles.

Eat real food and get some excercise.

I know as a cop I performed CPR on at least 3 people that were the equivalent of triathlon level athletes. One was in a car accident, one was electrocuted working out in a gym and one had a congenital heart defect. All due respect but use of an aed has nothing to do with being old or out of shape. People that have diabetic emergencies, suffer from dehydration & sun stroke (think Moab) and a variety of other ailments can all go in to V-fib.

Jacket
01-06-2011, 10:53 AM
Many work places will offer its employees free training and certification in the use of AED devices. Look into it if you are interested.

Snowrun
01-06-2011, 11:07 AM
i Know As A Cop I Performed Cpr On At Least 3 People That Were The Equivalent Of Triathlon Level Athletes. One Was In A Car Accident, One Was Electrocuted Working Out In A Gym And One Had A Congenital Heart Defect. All Due Respect But Use Of An Aed Has Nothing To Do With Being Old Or Out Of Shape. People That Have Diabetic Emergencies, Suffer From Dehydration & Sun Stroke (think Moab) And A Variety Of Other Ailments Can All Go In To V-fib.

2x

rover67
01-06-2011, 11:09 AM
I posted up some info in the members only section at the request of the membership last night.

lfd270ben
01-06-2011, 01:43 PM
I have done CPR on a lot more people then I would ever like to remember because of my job. The people that survived had help early. CPR alone generally does not correct dysrhythmia's ( vtach and vfib). I have personally witnessed lives saved by AED use by non medically trained people. These devices save lives and Rising sun would be cutting edge to have one of them on trail rides.

pmccumber
01-06-2011, 02:26 PM
I know as a cop I performed CPR on at least 3 people that were the equivalent of triathlon level athletes. One was in a car accident, one was electrocuted working out in a gym and one had a congenital heart defect. All due respect but use of an aed has nothing to do with being old or out of shape. People that have diabetic emergencies, suffer from dehydration & sun stroke (think Moab) and a variety of other ailments can all go in to V-fib.

I'm about to exhibit the quality that my wife hates the most: require complete correctness in statements.

While what Randy says is true, that people who have done a great deal do ensure their health have found need for an AED, the statement "has nothing to do with being old or out of shape" is still very much overstated. Saying that there are outliers that may need these devices SHOULD resonate with all of us, as Randy is pointed out, but that does not diminish the fact that the vast majority of the distribution representing those who experience heart disease have behaviors that contribute. So if you eat right, don't smoke, and exercise you are much less likely to need one. "Less" is not "won't" though.

AEDs are fantastic. We fought for years to get them here at work and finally we all chipped in and bought them for ourselves.

Air Randy
01-06-2011, 04:48 PM
I'm about to exhibit the quality that my wife hates the most: require complete correctness in statements.

While what Randy says is true, that people who have done a great deal do ensure their health have found need for an AED, the statement "has nothing to do with being old or out of shape" is still very much overstated. Saying that there are outliers that may need these devices SHOULD resonate with all of us, as Randy is pointed out, but that does not diminish the fact that the vast majority of the distribution representing those who experience heart disease have behaviors that contribute. So if you eat right, don't smoke, and exercise you are much less likely to need one. "Less" is not "won't" though.

I have to agree with your wife on this one.....:rolleyes:

Now let me correct your incorrect statement:

I did NOT say being out of shape did not contribute to heart disease.

I believe I DID say "All due respect but use of an aed has nothing to do with being old or out of shape." Since context matters keep in mind I made this statement in response to someone elses arguement (paraphrasing) that AED's would be unnecessary if people would just take care of themselves. That statement makes an incorrect assumption that AED's are only used to treat heart disease resulting from a poor life style.

My point being there are many health conditions whether chronic, acute or traumatic that can result in a heart condition an AED may be able to assist with. Heart disease, which can result from congenital defects, other diseases, cancer treatment, etc (including poor health habits) is only ONE condition an AED may be able to assist with.

farnhamstj
01-06-2011, 05:45 PM
Randy, I believe you and I see eye to eye very regularly. I do not disagree that AED is a good idea and is worth consideration for our Club. Does SlickRock Campground have one? Question for everyone, Does your workplace have one? Do you know how to use it? I think we could all stand to take a first aid, CPR, AED class. I take one bi-anually as part of my job requirements.

I believe we as a club can be overly caught up in the techno-gismos, be it HAM, GPS, or whater. The AED is a wonderful piece of equipment and capeable of saving someones life.

My point is if we are as concerned about each others lives as to carry an AED, that we should also remind each other to care for our own health and the health of our loved ones.

I in no way ment that if we were all in shape that an AED would be unnecessary.

nuclearlemon
01-06-2011, 10:37 PM
when's it going to stop? why don't we buy a 4wd ambulance and a paramedic. :rolleyes:

we need a statistician...what's the chance that we will have an episode requiring an aed? now, what's the chance that the aed will be where we need it when we need it?

i joined a 4wd club to protect my right to wheel, not to worry about the possibility of saving lives. if we keep looking for ways to blow a huge amount of cash, maybe we should lower some prices.

Inukshuk
01-06-2011, 10:59 PM
I believe that the club, as an acquirer of an AED, would have to comply with the requirements of Sub-section 3(I-V) of the law. (which is codified at C.R.S. 13-21-108.1)

Sub-section 4(c) reinforces this with the statement "except that the person or entity responsible for the site where the AED is located shall receive the limited immunity only if the requirements of subparagraph (II) of paragraph (a) of subsection (3) of this section are met."

I believe that Sub-section 5, the reference to the "Good Samaritan Law" codified at 13-21-108, would grant the protections of the Good Samaritan Law to the individual user (such as a club member) of the device.

So, in sum, I believe the requirements of sub-section 3 would apply in any event to Rising Sun.

Remember, I don't just play an attorney on TV, I am one in real life. That does not mean my reading is correct, but probably.

Personally, I am convinced that the advent of cheap and easy to use AED's is a great thing. The question you are all discussing well is plainly stated by Ige. In law we call it a "Slippery Slope" - once you start, where do you stop. Having been recently carted off the mountain by well prepared ski patrol who responded within minutes to a cell phone call. I am acutely more aware than ever of the risks of wilderness injury. I carry a whistle, knife and fire starter at all times in the woods, whether skiing or just hiking. I have a fire extinguisher in my truck.

If an AED is next, just be aware that there is a law to be complied with.

rover67
01-07-2011, 12:26 AM
Yeah, I'm not really looking to spend a lot of money neccesarily, I just came across an opportunity and figured i'd share it with the club. I decided that it was maybe worth giving the club an opportunity to decide instead of me deciding that something wasn't worth having.

Caribou Sandstorm
01-07-2011, 10:56 AM
Yeah, I'm not really looking to spend a lot of money neccesarily, I just came across an opportunity and figured i'd share it with the club. I decided that it was maybe worth giving the club an opportunity to decide instead of me deciding that something wasn't worth having.

This is exactly where I am at also. I thought it was a good one for the club as a whole to consider vs. a few.

Most of the stuff we do is pretty remote.

Personally, I think it is a no brainer purchase but that is from my perspective which I realize is not for all..

A few years ago, I was at drop in hockey at DU and a guy coded right there in the middle of the ice..He seemed to be in reasonable shape.. I felt really helpless and within the 15 minutes it took for paramedics to get there, dude was done. None of us on the scene knew CPR and we went for help, the gal at the desk, did CPR but that didn't help. The guys fiancee showed up after the paramdeics got there. We all have similar stories we have witnessed or heard of and this is why I am for getting technology that can make a difference.

Air Randy
01-07-2011, 01:43 PM
Hey Marco, can I just buy one myself at that price? Then we can stop all the pissing and moaning about cost and the BS about liability.

Frankly I don't give a damn whether I am personally covered via the immunity law or not. If saving someones life means potentially risking personal liability then I guess I am OK with that. If I have to pay out of pocket to make sure I am prepared to help someone else in their time of need, then so be it.

lfd270ben
01-08-2011, 06:25 PM
WOW this thread went left hard so sad.:rolleyes:

Dr. Schlegs
01-08-2011, 09:58 PM
Information is power. This is all good stuff for people to consider and ponder. Please do not stop talking about the subject, this is your club and all opinions have value. We can discuss the implications, pros, and cons at the next meeting and put it to a vote. This is the time for education.

Caribou Sandstorm
01-08-2011, 10:02 PM
Good discussions so far.