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View Full Version : Rebuilt 95 FZJ80 Birfields


MountainGoat
02-25-2011, 09:55 PM
This is a follow up to my recent Birfield Quandary (http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showthread.php?t=15127) thread.

Dropped off my birfs at CVJ Axles, Inc. (http://www.cvjaxles.com/) yesterday for rebuilding. I asked them NOT to pack grease in them, because I wanted to use a particular grease when I reinstalled them. Of course I also wanted to take a look at them without having to remove all that grease, too! They called at 9 am today and told me they were ready. When I picked them up they were not packed, as per my request. I was however a bit taken aback because they obviously weren't my original housings. There were none of the heat treating or burn marks that the OEMs had on them. It also appeared to me that the bowls were a bit shallower than my originals were. I didn't take that particular measurement before I gave them mine, so I can't verify that. I did, however, measure them for total length and for spline length and they were exactly right for a 95 FZJ80. I took some other measurements on my old ones as well and checked the new ones. All the measurements are pretty much the same. Ball size, housing thickness in the ball grooves and between them, and inside diameter from the bottom of one ball groove to the bottom of the one opposite.

Here are pictures of my old birfs with 260k miles on them:

The driver's side cage and star were pretty much seized together. Lots of big chips, scoring and hammering. I couldn't get them apart and the star would barely move inside the cage:

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/mountaingoat/birfs/IMG_7127.jpg

Horizontal grooves in the ball slot:
http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/mountaingoat/birfs/IMG_7129.jpg

Scoring and chipping on the star. Notice the groove where the ball rides to the left:
http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/mountaingoat/birfs/IMG_7131.jpg

More chips on the cage:
http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/mountaingoat/birfs/IMG_7135.jpg

The old housing:
http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/mountaingoat/birfs/IMG_7138.jpg

The rebuilt birf:
http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/mountaingoat/birfs/IMG_7146.jpg

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/mountaingoat/birfs/IMG_7147.jpg

I took out 2 of the balls so I could see the grooves, cage and star. They all look virtually brand new. There are some surface marks, mostly they are from what feels like graphite that I think they used to lubricate it enough to get it together. Note the lack of chipping, grooves or hammering:
http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/mountaingoat/birfs/IMG_7152.jpg

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/mountaingoat/birfs/IMG_7153.jpg

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/mountaingoat/birfs/IMG_7154.jpg

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/mountaingoat/birfs/IMG_7155.jpg

The outside of the housing has machine ridges on it, not smooth like the OEM:
http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/mountaingoat/birfs/IMG_7156.jpg

I would have pulled all the balls out and split the cage and star but frankly they were much tighter than my old ones and I didn't want to beat them to death. I put my short side axle in one and it fit. The joint moves smoothly with no play. Feels tight like I would guess a new one would.

Tomorrow we install them. Assuming everything fits I should be back on the road! BTW these cost $149 each.

ajax
02-25-2011, 11:05 PM
sweet hope they work out for you!

60wag
02-26-2011, 07:16 AM
It looks more like a replacement birf than a rebuilt. What did they reuse from the old one?

SteveH
02-26-2011, 08:06 AM
Excellent (very excellent) photos - thanks!

MountainGoat
02-26-2011, 08:38 AM
It looks more like a replacement birf than a rebuilt. What did they reuse from the old one?

Apparently nothing. You saw the pictures - the only part of the old ones that could possibly have been salvaged was the housing, provided the grooves were somehow removed. The balls are the same size, so I suppose they could have used my old balls. :hill:

MountainGoat
02-26-2011, 07:03 PM
Well they are in. All buttoned up. Took it for a test drive and they didn't click, rattle or grind. The clock starts at 266,246 on the odo. We will see how they do.

Am I tired? Yep. Time for a :beer:.

Thanks for helping me get this job done Martin. I owe you big time now!

:hill:

MDH33
02-26-2011, 07:28 PM
Well they are in. All buttoned up. Took it for a test drive and they didn't click, rattle or grind. The clock starts at 266,246 on the odo. We will see how they do.

Am I tired? Yep. Time for a :beer:.

Thanks for helping me get this job done Martin. I owe you big time now!

:hill:

Cool! Glad it ran well, sorry I couldn't hang for the test run. No problem on lending a hand. :thumb:


Man, this really makes me want Spring to arrive. Looking forward to getting out in the 40 and Cruise Moab! :cool:

Hulk
02-27-2011, 02:06 AM
Wow, great deal. They really treated you right!!

Dr. Schlegs
03-21-2011, 09:11 PM
What is the word on those rebuilt birfs? I'm finding myself needing to fix my clicking front end. I have been looking at all the avenues that you have explored and not overly impressed by the options. Toyota :birf: too spendy, Ebay:birf: seems like a waste of time and money. Longfields will not work on the fulltime 4wheel drive. CV unlimited seems possible, but why are they so cheap? Used :birf: worth while is few and far between.

:whiteflag:

I have a headache from searching the web.

nakman
03-21-2011, 09:15 PM
Schlegs you asked for my opinion, I think you should try these. Or try swapping yours left to right first, then see if the clicking goes away. But it depends on how often you like going in there.. if you don't want to pop spindles for another couple years then I'd go down the same path Dan did here..

SteveH
03-21-2011, 10:19 PM
I swapped mine left for right in my '95 and it made no difference in the clicking.

MountainGoat
03-22-2011, 07:40 AM
What is the word on those rebuilt birfs? I'm finding myself needing to fix my clicking front end. I have been looking at all the avenues that you have explored and not overly impressed by the options. Toyota :birf: too spendy, Ebay:birf: seems like a waste of time and money. Longfields will not work on the fulltime 4wheel drive. CV unlimited seems possible, but why are they so cheap? Used :birf: worth while is few and far between.

:whiteflag:

I have a headache from searching the web.

I was in the same boat as you Kevin. Lots of choices but none of them too appealing. As far as I know I am the first in the club to try these rebuilt birfs. I only have 100 miles of street use so far, but they are doing fine. After I get a couple more maintenance issues addressed I will be doing a shakedown run locally, probably Slaughterhouse or something. Then I will be bringing my 80 to CM2011 so that will be their first real test.

If you can wait a couple of months I should have some decent real time data to help in your evaluation. :thumb:

Dr. Schlegs
03-22-2011, 12:06 PM
I ordered some birfs from JToutfitters. They are from CV Unlimited and called "Newfields". CV Unlimited seems to have a good reputation and many people speak of them in high regard on the various forums. I'll save the OEM birfs and have them rebuilt at some point just to have a back-up set.

Hulk
03-23-2011, 01:24 AM
Aren't Newfields frozen similar to Longfields?

Dr. Schlegs
03-23-2011, 01:41 AM
My understanding is that Newfields are "reconditioned" by CV Unlimited. Longfields are made of Moly and stretch over time and wear out faster as a result. Longfields are suggested for vehicles with manual hubs, and none daily drivers.

sleeoffroad
03-23-2011, 08:37 AM
You buy a Land Cruiser for reliability, yet you do not want to spend the money to replace a joint that lasts 200k miles easily. That is 0.006c per mile of use. I don't get it.

Newfields are sold by CV Unlimited. The stock replacements ones are considered for light duty use in stock trucks. Not sure of the origin, but somewhere out east. Chromoly ones are not for daily driving. Does not matter if they come from CV unlimited (who has them), Carl (JT Diffs) or Bobby Long. Any of those will not last in a DD application.

For DD application and oversize tires plus wheeling, factory Toyota is really the only option.

Think about why you own a land Cruiser before you throw parts at it that is not suited for your application. We sell all three kinds, but with proper edumecation so the customer knows what he should use.

MountainGoat
03-23-2011, 10:25 AM
... We sell all three kinds, but with proper edumecation so the customer knows what he should use.

How much are the stock replacements you sell, Christo? I see they have appeared on your website but there is no price on them.

Dr. Schlegs
04-04-2011, 01:20 PM
Ok, so seeing as how JToutfitters has yet to ship the Newfields I canceled the order. I had one birf as a trail spare and I picked up another one this morning from Jims Got Parts, ran the two Birfs over to CVJ Axles, Inc. to get them rebuilt. One was in really good condition the other had some clicking. The woman that helped me know what I had just by looking at the shape of the garbage bags they were wrapped in. I take that as a good sign. Great find Dan. Hopefully I can get this thing locked, geared and rebuilt in time for CM11.

MountainGoat
08-07-2011, 08:58 AM
Time for an update. I am coming up on 5k miles on the rebuilt birfs and so far they have performed flawlessly. No breaks, no clicks. I drove to Cruise Moab 2011 on them and wheeled Elephant Hill and Wipeout Hill. Locally I have done China Wall, BOWAGW (Slaughterhouse), Argentine Pass cleanup run and Red Cone twice. Nothing hardcore, but I have used my front elocker several times to get out of compromising positions. I haven't been babying them, just driving as usual. So far they appear to have adequate strength for my style of wheeling. The next question is how long they will last before they start clicking. I don't expect 250k like the stock birfields. I will be ecstatic though if I get half that, considering the cost. As of now I have to say :thumb: on these birfs. :cool:

SteveH
08-08-2011, 07:40 AM
Thanks for the field report (as it were). I had been wondering what your thoughts were after some miles had been put on the joints.

Wheelerton
08-15-2011, 04:42 PM
You buy a Land Cruiser for reliability, yet you do not want to spend the money to replace a joint that lasts 200k miles easily. That is 0.006c per mile of use. I don't get it.

Newfields are sold by CV Unlimited. The stock replacements ones are considered for light duty use in stock trucks. Not sure of the origin, but somewhere out east. Chromoly ones are not for daily driving. Does not matter if they come from CV unlimited (who has them), Carl (JT Diffs) or Bobby Long. Any of those will not last in a DD application.

For DD application and oversize tires plus wheeling, factory Toyota is really the only option.

Think about why you own a land Cruiser before you throw parts at it that is not suited for your application. We sell all three kinds, but with proper edumecation so the customer knows what he should use.

Easier said than done, Christo, the proper edumecation, How ya doing ? Christo ?

Now I just about have a factory trained Toyota tech deprogrammed, wondering if you Rising Sun guys will allow Part III of his edumacation to be here ?

Dont ask Romer he has got it out for me, anyhoo, Jacket had to say "Backwoodsgoop" so just dropped by to say Hi to my favorite little Toyota forum,

Oh and If you care have got some info straight from Toyota on this , So

Anybody up for some Edumaction ? this is including you oh wise Christo

Frank

Wheelerton
08-15-2011, 04:48 PM
Hey a little FYI the Suzuki guys seemed to be more receptive to my findings,

Heres a good post from Zuki World Forums, thread called Solid axle grease,


Re: Solid axle grease,
Reply #18 on: August 13, 2011, 12:51:32 PM
Reply with quote Modify message Remove message
Quote from: wildgoody on August 13, 2011, 11:29:05 AM
Interesting conversation, skim read the lengthy posts, and wanted to toss
in a theory, that from the factory, they might not assemble the bearings
with a packing of grease, so the semi fluid grease is used to allow faster
assembly and fast fill of a suitable lubricant, as this semi fluid will fill voids
in the bearings that a heavy grease will not.

In addition to that, the fluid type grease might keep the seals and wipers
"splash" lubed on a closed knuckle system.

As a side note, older heavy trucking trailers used wheel bearing grease,
and sometime in the 80s switched over to gear lube and a sight glass in
the hubs, they even make conversion kits to switch over from grease to
oil, all usually is needed is to replace the inner seal to hold the oil.

If heavy trucking can use oil instead, I see little trouble with a semi fluid
grease being an issue, I personally would prefer a lube that can flow and
keep the moving parts lubricated, instead of the crusty grease I have seen
that gets thick and hard and quits protecting the critical parts

Wild

Super cool, Wild Yes in some ways using a fluid is much easier than the conventional packing, or so I have noticed, there are other little perks about liquid lubrication aside from the fluid working is way into the voids that thicker grease wont,
Slightly less rolling resistance, better cold weather function, and drawing heat away from the bearing, but the overhaul advantage of fluid lube in the wheel hub is that it simply lasts longer,

And this is a Yes as well agree 100%

In addition to that, the fluid type grease might keep the seals and wipers
"splash" lubed on a closed knuckle system.

actually if your Suzuki solid axles are like all the rest of them and use a Felt wiper seal, this felt can absorb the fluid grease and be drawn into it and thru the "Capillary Action" pull the fluid thru the porous felt and coat the entire seal even if the level is un maintained,
Now I have not noticed a Fill plug on these Suzuki solid axles, like its larger Toyota Cousin, Is this the case ?
And Yes semi trucks , trailers, fluid wheel hubs, There is a slight difference in seal design for oil or fluid containment, One of the first things I noticed about The Toyota solid axle,

Thanks Wild, super cool post

ttubb
08-15-2011, 04:50 PM
[/B]Easier said than done, Christo, the proper edumecation, How ya doing ? Christo ?

Now I just about have a factory trained Toyota tech deprogrammed, wondering if you Rising Sun guys will allow Part III of his edumacation to be here ?

Dont ask Romer he has got it out for me, anyhoo, Jacket had to say "Backwoodsgoop" so just dropped by to say Hi to my favorite little Toyota forum,

Oh and If you care have got some info straight from Toyota on this , So

Anybody up for some Edumaction ? this is including you oh wise Christo

Frank

And here I thought we had lost him.......:eek:

Wheelerton
08-15-2011, 04:54 PM
[/B]

And here I thought we had lost him.......:eek:

Nope still here, and I want to come to your next WBPP , sounds like fun, see if I can get anyone brave enough to become a pumper rather than a packer,

So Can I ?

admin
08-15-2011, 04:58 PM
No.. You Get Banned Again D-bag

Uncle Ben
08-15-2011, 05:04 PM
Nope still here, and I want to come to your next WBPP , sounds like fun, see if I can get anyone brave enough to become a pumper rather than a packer,

So Can I ?

Please do! That would be worth the assault charges!

MountainGoat
08-15-2011, 05:24 PM
Aaaaaaaarrrrrrrggggggggggghhhhhhhh!

My thread got infected and it is oozing backwoods goop! :lmao:

Inukshuk
04-02-2013, 12:06 AM
How those rebuilds doing?

MountainGoat
04-02-2013, 08:19 AM
How those rebuilds doing?

They are doing just fine. The truck is at 282k, so I have around 16k on them so far. No clicks or any sign of weakness or wear. Ran Behind the Rocks at Moab a couple weeks ago, did pretty much every obstacle except High Dive and White Knuckle. Plenty of front locker action without a hitch. :hill:

Inukshuk
04-02-2013, 09:09 AM
They are doing just fine. The truck is at 282k, so I have around 16k on them so far. No clicks or any sign of weakness or wear. Ran Behind the Rocks at Moab a couple weeks ago, did pretty much every obstacle except High Dive and White Knuckle. Plenty of front locker action without a hitch. :hill:

Cool. Good to hear.

LARGEONE
04-03-2013, 06:34 PM
I only have a few thousand miles on my rebuilds, so it's good to hear they are doing well for you, Dan. Looking forward to many more thousand miles!

Inukshuk
07-02-2013, 10:59 PM
Dave K. and I dropped off birfields at CVJ Monday and they came back looking like this: I'll be calling tomorrow to find out what they did (we have the ABS rings. We took those off in advance).

Inukshuk
07-03-2013, 12:25 PM
I spoke with Shawn at CVJ. We talked for about 15 minutes, he took my questions seriously, also asked me some, and we discussed the process a bit. Part of why I found his answers credible is that he remember our call a few weeks back, asked me what we had decided about the grooved inner axles (at the seal) (I got new ones), and was curious about price and source for the OEM inners (I suggested Derek at Stevinson and C-Dan). I told him about RS and this forum and how this write-up here and others' experience influenced me to try the rebuild.

FWIW, the Slee joints I just rebuilt I purchased in 2004 and probably have 90,000 on them. A good argument for what Christo said - $0.004 per mile, per side.

1) the black - paint. They paint every part that goes out. To protect the raw metal, and, because customers like the fresh look. Like a new part. He basically agreed the paint was feel good for most people. Probably also helps them keep track of finished parts. Its just regular spray paint, he says people install the painted parts into enclosed greased spaces like our knuckles all the time and he's never heard of a problem. He also said its a very light coat that should come off with some mineral spirits or goof off.

Note: if you don't want them painted, just ask.

2) The Grease - a CV Joint Grease, Hi Temp, Extreme Pressure, Lithium Base, Moly grease. He said they grease birfields with a better grease than other CV joints. He did not offer the brand or specific type but my impression is that its just because to him its the right grease, no greater specification needed. He did note that its Lithium based, so should be compatible with any other lithium base grease.

Note: I'm still unsure whether I want to mix it with the Valvoline lithium based moly I was planning to use. I probably will.

3) The process: new balls, cage and race (in the birf he said they consider the "star" the race). A "proprietary" process for the cup.

MountainGoat
07-03-2013, 03:40 PM
Mine were not painted when I picked them up. That seems kind of weird. Most metal shops would use a light coat of oil to protect the raw metal.

I requested no grease because I wanted to use Palladium. I also wanted to be able to inspect the inside of the birf before I installed it. I don't see any reason why you should have a problem mixing Valvoline Palladium with the grease they packed it with. They are both high moly lithium based grease.

Mine are still working excellently, by the way. :thumb:

coax
08-06-2013, 11:00 AM
So I picked up a trail-spare birf (http://forum.ih8mud.com/sale-parts/738604-trail-spares-80-100-series-axles-birfields-drive-shafts-cv-axles.html) from Slee yesterday. Hopefully this weekend I can pull it apart and take a look at the condition. If it looks really bad I'll go this route and then have a pretty solid trail spare for those longer and more remote trips :D

Thanks everyone for the feedback they posted, seems like a pretty good route to take! :cheers:

Backwoods Rambler
01-23-2014, 12:59 PM
They are doing just fine. The truck is at 282k, so I have around 16k on them so far. No clicks or any sign of weakness or wear. Ran Behind the Rocks at Moab a couple weeks ago, did pretty much every obstacle except High Dive and White Knuckle. Plenty of front locker action without a hitch. :hill:

Anything further to report? Seems like they've been in for several years, but not many miles relatively speaking.

Thanks,

- JD

MountainGoat
02-21-2014, 10:19 AM
Anything further to report? Seems like they've been in for several years, but not many miles relatively speaking.

Thanks,

- JD

They are at 20k miles now and still working flawlessly. :D

LARGEONE
02-21-2014, 09:46 PM
I've had no issues, but I have about the same miles as Dan on mine.

Backwoods Rambler
02-21-2014, 10:40 PM
Thanks for the feedback guys. That seems like good mileage considering the cost.

Inukshuk
02-21-2014, 11:01 PM
.....

You might want to select a forum name that does not include "Backwoods" :eek: Unless you are that guy.

Backwoods Rambler
02-21-2014, 11:24 PM
Funny... Over 6 years, on about 5 major off-road forums, that's the first time anyone has ever made an even slightly negative comment about my username.

It's fine. I like my username. I'll keep it ;)

Inukshuk
02-22-2014, 07:06 AM
See earlier in the thread and elsewhere on RS, Mud, and Pirate 4x4, the posts by the "backwoods goop guy". He has been banned from several forums. This has absolutely nothing to do with you and please don't take it as a negative comment.

Backwoods Rambler
02-22-2014, 08:10 AM
I see... I recall the reference on MUD now from a post about axle grease. I'm definitely NOT that guy! Haha.

It's all good. :)