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bigcity25
05-29-2011, 12:22 PM
Hello guys, I usually spend my time on mud. But I need the help of some local 40 experts. A shop here in town tried to help me with my left turn signal. Now I press the brakes and turn signals up front light up and oh btw now that has stopped and nothing works no signals, hazards, or brakes. I am DRT (dead right there) this is my DD and am willing to pay some cash for help. Mostly so I can learn this stuff and also get me running again. 303-522-3583 Jeff Billingsley

BreckBJ44
05-29-2011, 02:13 PM
Jeff,

I'll give some advice first, but then you can come on by and we can work on it... My first assumption is that you probably have some original turn signals and tail lights. If so, they may be rusty and are not getting good ground. When this happens, all sorts of strange electrical poop happens.

I had the situation a while ago where I'd shut down the rig and turn the lights off and the front parking light and tail light on the left side would come on! I almost took apart my entire wiring harness until someone told me to look at the lights themselves and clean them up to make sure they all grounded properly. Solved the issue.

bigcity25
05-29-2011, 05:17 PM
Oh man can't tell you how much of a pain this has turned into. This shop has almost made me think I shouldn't have bought a cruiser. But I still love my cruiser, just would have done things differently. So my plans were to rewire the back harness anyways just not this soon. But I went and got the rest of the parts today and I am gonna work my way back from the rear to the front. I have the dash torn apart and can't see anythin that stands out. This shop had switched the fuel and taillight plugs thinkin that would do the trick. And this is a cruiser shop, go figure. Let me try this last attempt tomorrow and I'll update you on this, breckbj44 I still want to take you up on your offer if this doesn't work out. Thanks for the advice.

subzali
05-29-2011, 05:59 PM
x2 and you'll get many more; check all your grounds before doing anything. And check your fuses. Stop lights and Turn lights are on different fuses, but they do connect within the wiring harness. What year is your 40?

Rezarf
05-29-2011, 08:44 PM
I have to address my grounds about once a year. I clean out each socket in the rear lights as well (I need to replace them someday). Then make sure all your screws are going into clean metal and I now use those little star washers that "bite" into the steel, they seem to be a double edge sword as they give a great ground but they also let crud get back between the parts... :rolleyes:

I have used the batter terminal coating stuff with some success, the mag chloride smokes these old cruisers.

FWIW, I just grab a wire brush tip for the drill and have at it in all the light sockets and a wire cup wheel for the grounds.

bigcity25
05-29-2011, 09:39 PM
My cruiser is a 7/70. I will also do some cleaning on the terminal and sockets. Thanks.

farnhamstj
05-30-2011, 10:37 PM
I didn't get rid of those gremlins until I replaced all 4 corners. I think I got mine from ccot.

bigcity25
05-31-2011, 12:52 PM
I cannot tell you guys how F$%&*#@ Pissed I am! This is such a long story and I will never ever recommend (insert ****ty shop name here) to anybody. 8k invested with shop and parts fees and my truck is still jacked up. You would think $90 shop rate for so called "expert service" would get you a lot. I understand a truck that has sat for a while has bugs to be worked out. But this has been a trip to hell and back.

satchel
05-31-2011, 12:54 PM
Details?

bigcity25
05-31-2011, 01:58 PM
Get some popcorn and a drink......decided to buy a cruiser to make my daily driver and get rid of my Tacoma. Wanted to go into this with a budget of 10k or so. Thinking I could find a truck for that much that was in decent shape with little investment mechanically. Found a cruiser that a owner needed to part with for $2500. Called this shop and asked about the truck and sent some pics. The owner was excited and said if I didn't buy it then he would. My whole intentions were to make this a DD nothing fancy, mostly stock looking. The body is in good shape with little bondo, a 7/70 fj40 a 2f that's desmogged and 3 speed. After a inspection and list sent to me a fixes we were looking at 8k give or take. I had decided to put my own bumper, mirrors, tires myself to save some shop fees ($90 hourly) The truck had a new alternator, seats and mounts seatbelts fan with clutch, brake job with new man-a-fre discs installed up front with a new seal kit installed on the front axle, some misc seals and fluids added, heater with duct work, carb kit with solenoid, rear hatch handle. And maybe some other odds and ends of small items.
So after app. 1.5 months I got the call. "Come get it!" I went to the shop and drove away. First thing I noticed there was no speedo working, no turn signals and then the smell of antifreeze. Opened the hood and the over flow was pouring out onto the engine. No overflow container installed. Went back and was told that the truck will find it's level and will be fine. So I left then about 8 blocks away the truck started to run funny. Thinking it was out of gas because I noticed the gas gauge wasn't working. I pulled into a station and filled it up. Then I couldn't get the truck into gear. Called the shop and the owner picked me up and the truck was towed back. Well come to find the slave cylinder really didn't work. Just enough for a couple blocks of driving. So they were kind enough to install a new slave cylinder and rigged up the turn signals. And then I installed my windshield sprayer and wipers because I guess that's not needed for a daily driver. I also fixed the defrost ducts because they were taped to the vents up on the dash. I guess they hoped it was never gonna get cold here in Colorado. ($90 hourly rate)I also installed my own locks, weather stripping. Fast forward a month. Took the cruiser for a drive on 6th avenue to play hockey in lakewood and the smell of anti freeze started again. Now I had installed my own overflow unit (nalgene bottle) and was perplexed. "What was going on?" After I had brought it back to the shop it was found the block had crud in it. And coolant wasn't moving correctly or at all, just boiling. After they used some chemical additives to clear it out over the period of 3 days (not done in the first place) it was clean and I then was told about how it ruined my radiator and they installed a new one for $450. I didn't realize it was overheating because the temp gauge wasn't working and due to a 80's 2f being in that 7/70 fj40. I found out the polarity was different and needed a 1f water temp sending unit instead of a 2f wtsu. (Thanks Mark @Marks offroad) So my last adventure was the fact it was not noticed during the carb over haul, that my throttle linkage was jerry rigged up by the PO. Weird, guess expert service doesn't see that red flag. So when I broke down I had the truck towed back to the shop. We talked and figured out what was wrong. The owner felt bad for all the trouble that I went through and hooked me up with a 5 year old webber carb for free. He asked is there any other issues and I said my left turn is out can you look at that? Then we had a talk, I told him I could be that guy and bad mouth him on Mud or here but I was giving him a chance. But now after I had spent all day yesterday and half of today trying to fix my electrical,(rewiring the entire back half because I was told there was a short there) because the left turn issue turned into no brakes, nor turns, just the front turns lighting up when I press the brakes. It wasn't like that before. I have had enough. This is not the work of a old truck, it's the issue of me not being Jonny full resto, not being the big income for a business. They never took my truck for multiple drives around the city or the highway. Corners were cut and more work has been created for me taking time away from my wife and life. You're suppose to take your truck to fix things at a shop not create more work for yourself.

satchel
05-31-2011, 02:50 PM
That sucks, sorry to hear about all your issues. So I'm guessing you still have your electrical gremlins, or did you fix those on your own?

bigcity25
05-31-2011, 03:26 PM
No not at all. They told me when trying to fix the issue, they unplugged and plugged in two different wires to "see what would happen". And said they're on the passenger side firewall. He couldn't remember if they put them back. Well I can't find what he was talking about. Nothing fits the description of what was mentioned. So I spent all day yesterday and half of today rewiring the back half and nothing has changed. I am at my end of my rope. I have no idea what to do!

subzali
05-31-2011, 03:45 PM
Wow. Just wow. I'm sure you've figured this out by now, but do not take that poor truck back to that shop. That is certainly a horror story. Is the electrical the only thing wrong with the truck or are there other things? What all were they supposed to do?

Do you have an FSM or a Haynes manual? I hate to say it, but I hope you haven't jumped from a more modern vehicle to DDing the 40 yet. I've found that it's hard to DD a 30+ year old vehicle, for reasons exactly like what you're describing; there's always something. Anyway, it sounds like you might have to go back and touch every bulb, fuse, every ground, and check continuity on every circuit, and maybe even pull the harness out to check for broken wires/abraded insulation that may be causing problems. It's going to take time. I'm slowly going through something very similar right now, slowly, methodically, but thankfully not on my DD.

bigcity25
05-31-2011, 04:03 PM
Let's see: Not going back to that shop, right now the electrical is the only thing wrong/not working. (Knock on wood) And what they were "suppose to do is go through the truck and make it my daily driver" that was my intentions from the start. They did their "inspection" and gave me a list of what was needed to fix. What wasn't mentioned I thought didn't need fixing or replacing. I have the FSM/Haynes/coolermans wiring schematics/2f engine manual/and even the emissions book. But since they jerry rigged some of the electrics I am kind of stuck. The kicker is everything worked minus the left turn before I brought it in to the shop. And yes I guess I made the mistake of selling my 2006 taco and making this my DD. Guess I am kind of naive, still love Toyota's.

satchel
05-31-2011, 04:15 PM
Not sure what your location is, but I'm in Aurora and you're more than welcome to bring it by if you would like help figuring it out, assuming you can get it there. Send me a PM if you want help on it.

RicardoJM
05-31-2011, 05:02 PM
Having the 40 as your DD driver certainly adds an additional "pressure" dynamic when dealing with any issues. You are not the first FJ40 owner to have have issues with a shop. Having read through the details, I can empathize with your frustration and I believe you will find support here to help you work through the wiring issue. :thumb:

IIRC you work with Denver Fire Department and have a non-traditional schedule and are on the east end of Denver. To keep this thread on track, what does your schedule look like for having someone stop by to give you a hand with better understanding what needs to be done to get the rear lights working? I could stop by on Saturday and have plans that would not allow me to be there on Sunday.

bigcity25
05-31-2011, 05:23 PM
PM Sent

TIMZTOY
05-31-2011, 06:06 PM
As of now the plan is for me to swing by next Sunday.

nattybumppo
06-01-2011, 06:26 AM
I hope you get that figured out, but I wouldn't lose sleep or elevate your blood pressure over a blinker problem. I have had my 40 for two years now, and I still have to find my left side brake light short although the rest of the lighting deficiencies turned out to be grounding problems. I used it as a daily driver for about a year before I got a 60. I believe that with these old beasts, you have to embrace the constant attention they need. Perfection is an elusive quality in a 40 unless you spend huge cash on a full frame-off rebuild. Nevertheless, they will faithfully get you where you want to go and scare the crap out of those lousy Denver drivers who think of nobody but themselves on the road until they see that chunk of solid metal front bumper looming and get out of the way! I don't think any cops (except maybe State Patrol) will bother you about a minor light issue, though you may get stopped once or twice. Take your time and enjoy finding your rig's quirks yourself, and save that labor charge. Most of the local shops don't really want to mess with 40s anyway, unless somebody wants to pay the afore-mentioned big bucks on a full restoration. And don't forget to come along on the 40s Only Run this summer! Also, I would keep the Aisin carb. You might be wanting to return to that before too long.

bigcity25
06-01-2011, 07:59 AM
Thanks I appreciate the positive talk. Just got really frustrated as hell. And now today I am at work, so I can take my mind off of it. I wish I had the money to open a cruiser shop for all cruiser drivers. Not just the full resto guys I have really been keeping my mouth shut about this shop and finally have had enough.

Rzeppa
06-01-2011, 12:53 PM
Hi Big City, I just saw this thread (got pointed to it actually). That is a tough story you have told. I am disappointed that this shop hasn't done better work. I almost bought that shop when the founder had it up for sale a couple years ago. My :Princess: kinda put her foot down and wouldn't let me (well it was the shop or her, I chose her).

There are a bunch of us who know 40s inside and out and are more than happy to help you learn all you need to know. 40s are actually pretty fun because they are so simple (once you get to know them) that they're pretty easy to work on and figure out. I wish I had known about Rising Sun back when I got my first 40 back in 1982, I would have saved a lot of time and aggravation from making my own mistakes LOL!

FWIW, my 3/71 is 100% bone stock as far as the wiring, if you want we can put the 2 side by side and fix yours up so it is wired the same. :thumb:

bigcity25
06-01-2011, 01:14 PM
Well I feel bad talking about this shop the way I am. I think the owner wants to make good and I know he is new to the business side of things. But after spending almost 10k total and alot of my time fixing things I paid to get fixed, not to mention my time it gets old. I know old cruisers may have issues but I guess I am just frustrated.

subzali
06-01-2011, 01:39 PM
Well it sounds like Tim and maybe others will be able to swing by this weekend and give you a hand. Please keep us up-to-date on your progress and we'll try to give you sideline reviews and input :thumb:

bigcity25
06-02-2011, 11:02 AM
I have done some trouble shooting today. I have power from my brake switch to my turn signal switch. After that no juice. But I still have hazards and left/right flashing front and rear. I am gonna open things up and see if there is a short not allowing power to go through. If the switch is bad will some things work or will it all go?

TIMZTOY
06-02-2011, 11:29 AM
I have done some trouble shooting today. I have power from my brake switch to my turn signal switch. After that no juice. But I still have hazards and left/right flashing front and rear. I am gonna open things up and see if there is a short not allowing power to go through. If the switch is bad will some things work or will it all go?

Depends on the switch and what type of switch it is.

BreckBJ44
06-02-2011, 11:42 AM
As a note... The hazard switch in my cruiser runs a LOT of the turn signals and such. With the grounding issue I had, I also had a bad switch which made my three days of taking apart my dash and wiring harness even more fun. Once I realized the grounds were the issue and that the switch was bad, I shorted the hazard switch (to make it work properly, but I no longer have hazard lights) until I sourced a new one.

Toyota does a great job of building harnesses so unless your PO, or this shop, messed with things, I'd say check your harness last.

I have to coach Saturday, but unless we play better than expected, I should have time Sunday... Where are you located? I am in Capitol Hill.

bigcity25
06-02-2011, 11:53 AM
I have done some trouble shooting today. I have power from my brake switch to my turn signal switch. After that no juice. But I still have hazards and left/right flashing front and rear. I am gonna open things up and see if there is a short not allowing power to go through. If the switch is bad will some things work or will it all go?

L43dean
06-02-2011, 12:41 PM
In my experience with my 1968 Fj-40, my turn indicators were failing gradually. Intermitent function, then eventually no-workie. The brake and hazard lamps were good. The switch mechanism on the column had mechanically wore out. I took it apart and with the old (po supplied) original also apart, tried to make one functioning switch. No success, the moving parts were too loose and the required bridging contacts were sloppy. I bought a new switch from TOYOTA (part # 84310-60022) and installed it. Now my turn signals work fine. Yes you have to pull the steering wheel to remove and replace the switch. Oh yeah the brake lights, in 68, are routed through the horn relay. That I was able to mend/solder. Good luck!

Rzeppa
06-02-2011, 01:02 PM
I have done some trouble shooting today. I have power from my brake switch to my turn signal switch. After that no juice. But I still have hazards and left/right flashing front and rear. I am gonna open things up and see if there is a short not allowing power to go through. If the switch is bad will some things work or will it all go?

FYI, a short will either make a fuse blow (if you are lucky) or make wires melt/sparks/fire. What you are looking for is an open - something is not connected where it is supposed to be connected. If you have hazards and turn signals working that is a real good sign - it also means you have functional grounds on your rear combination lamps and front turn signal assemblies.

I just re-read your original post and it looks like you have a different condition now than you did then. Is all we are trying to fix is brake lights and everything else works right?

bigcity25
06-02-2011, 01:08 PM
OK, yes the hazards and turns work again. They are rigged by the shop with an aftermarket flasher relay on a separate power source that is also grounded to the truck. I have a green and white wire that is hot not plugged into anything just taped up. But my right turn also flashes faster than the left. So I ordered a new turn signal switch and brake pressure switch for 2 reasons: 1 my right turn had a small short starting to appear and worked some of the time. 2 I have been chasing power from my brake switch to see where it's stopping or coming from. I have power going to the plug that supplies my brake switch. But pressing on the pedal should close the circuit and I should see power come through the switch at least to my meter and register on it. My meter was grounded (I tested it on another hot source) and nothing happened. Plus if that's not the problem I'll have spare parts for the future. I added new grounds to my rear lights, to the frame. But I think there might be a wiring issue somewhere. I pulled the fuse on Tuesday for the brakes and tried the circuit to see if power was flowing backwards or something weird. When I reinstalled the fuse the turn indicators on the dash stopped lighting up. (weird) So it kind of corrected that issue, but is it fixed in that sense I don't know. I wonder if the brake switch got burned out from the "reversal" or some plugs that was done by the shop.

SteveH
06-02-2011, 03:59 PM
>>I have a green and white wire that is hot not plugged into anything just taped up.

I had a green/white wire under the inst. cluster on my 1980 FJ that was hot when the flashers were on. The PO had grounded it (!) poorly, and when I redid his grounding properly, and turned on the flashers, they blinked very slowly as smoke came out under the dash. I removed the ground and taped up the wire. Ouch. Beware the 'hot' green/white wire under the dash. I have not studied any wiring diagrams, but all my brake/hazard stuff works properly, so I have left this wire alone for now.

L43dean
06-02-2011, 05:59 PM
OK, yes the hazards and turns work again. They are rigged by the shop with an aftermarket flasher relay on a separate power source that is also grounded to the truck. I have a green and white wire that is hot not plugged into anything just taped up. But my right turn also flashes faster than the left. So I ordered a new turn signal switch and brake pressure switch for 2 reasons: 1 my right turn had a small short starting to appear and worked some of the time. 2 I have been chasing power from my brake switch to see where it's stopping or coming from. I have power going to the plug that supplies my brake switch. But pressing on the pedal should close the circuit and I should see power come through the switch at least to my meter and register on it. My meter was grounded (I tested it on another hot source) and nothing happened. Plus if that's not the problem I'll have spare parts for the future. I added new grounds to my rear lights, to the frame. But I think there might be a wiring issue somewhere. I pulled the fuse on Tuesday for the brakes and tried the circuit to see if power was flowing backwards or something weird. When I reinstalled the fuse the turn indicators on the dash stopped lighting up. (weird) So it kind of corrected that issue, but is it fixed in that sense I don't know. I wonder if the brake switch got burned out from the "reversal" or some plugs that was done by the shop.
Whoa! Get your wiring schematic out (in my 68' it folds out of the back page of the owners manual) and remove ALL non factory "repairs & improvements".
Then troubleshoot from there without these bandaids on your inspection glasses.

bigcity25
06-03-2011, 08:28 AM
I have been studying the schematics for a 71, off of coolermans website from ih8mud. That's the closest and clearest one I can find. Still need to follow wires around with it and see if I can find the problem. Somewhere is either a short or wires hooked up backwards. Maybe my hazard switch is toast.

L43dean
06-03-2011, 10:07 AM
I have been studying the schematics for a 71, off of coolermans website from ih8mud. That's the closest and clearest one I can find. Still need to follow wires around with it and see if I can find the problem. Somewhere is either a short or wires hooked up backwards. Maybe my hazard switch is toast.

Jeff, I would be happy to photocopy my 68' schematic and try to get it to you somehow. I don't have a scanner here. I live in Aurora, is Tim still headed over to your place? I wonder, just for the ell ove it, if Toyota has a new harness still available? I bet you just have a bad splice somewhere. Like in 1976 U-haul taped in a trailer harness. Good luck! Dean

Rzeppa
06-03-2011, 10:37 AM
OK, yes the hazards and turns work again. They are rigged by the shop with an aftermarket flasher relay on a separate power source that is also grounded to the truck.

Ah HAH! That is going to be a big problem and will need to be corrected. You need to ditch that aftermarket flasher and put it back to stock. Not only do your turn signals go through the stock flasher, but the brake light do too.

I have a green and white wire that is hot not plugged into anything just taped up. But my right turn also flashes faster than the left.

Faster flashing means lower resistance in the load. Slow flashing or none at all mean a crusty ground connection or burned out bulb.

So I ordered a new turn signal switch and brake pressure switch for 2 reasons: 1 my right turn had a small short starting to appear and worked some of the time.

Again, a SHORT at best will blow a fuse, at worst a SHORT will melt wire, make sparks, smoke, fire. An OPEN (what we are dealing with here) is when something that is supposed to be connected, isn't.

2 I have been chasing power from my brake switch to see where it's stopping or coming from.

That's good!

I have power going to the plug that supplies my brake switch. But pressing on the pedal should close the circuit and I should see power come through the switch at least to my meter and register on it. My meter was grounded (I tested it on another hot source) and nothing happened.

You should, unless the plug is faulty, the switch is faulty, or the switch is not positioned properly to be actuated by the movement of the brake pedal arm.

Plus if that's not the problem I'll have spare parts for the future. I added new grounds to my rear lights, to the frame.

That can never hurt. I do the same on my 71.

But I think there might be a wiring issue somewhere.

Clearly you have a number of issues, not the least of which is that aftermaket flasher and disconnected wires.

I pulled the fuse on Tuesday for the brakes and tried the circuit to see if power was flowing backwards or something weird.

LOL! Electricity flows from one polarity to the other to complete a circuit - it always tries to complete the circuit when it can.

When I reinstalled the fuse the turn indicators on the dash stopped lighting up. (weird) So it kind of corrected that issue, but is it fixed in that sense I don't know. I wonder if the brake switch got burned out from the "reversal" or some plugs that was done by the shop.

If you want to know if the brake switch works, simply unplug it from the connector, then connect your meter to the switch with the meter set on Ohms (20 Ohm setting) and see if it works. When it not actuated it should be closed (close to zero ohms) and when it is actuated it should be open.

Good luck!

bigcity25
06-03-2011, 10:03 PM
Wow, lots to trouble shoot and go through. And then fix the right way.......wish I could pay myself $90 shop rates. Hopefully Sunday I can do some more rifling through the rig. Thanks and I'll keep you guys posted.

TIMZTOY
06-04-2011, 10:48 AM
also remember that electricity is lazy ! it WILL always take the path of leist resistance.

bigcity25
06-04-2011, 12:49 PM
Update, the oem flasher was still on my firewall. I cleaned up up and plugged it in. All four lights work correctly and hazards. Still waiting for the brake switch. I tried my wires to see where the mismatch wiring was and fixed the power issue. Now the rears light up and I am keeping my fingers crossed.

bigcity25
06-08-2011, 08:26 PM
I installed the new brake light switch and everything is as good as new. (knock on wood) I appreciate all the help on here and offers to give me a hand. I have come a long way from 2 weeks ago. thanks.

subzali
06-09-2011, 08:00 AM
Awesome! That's good news that you figured it out, because I am still having problems with my electrical system and I'm a little stuck right now. Really happy you got it fixed up though...

Rzeppa
06-09-2011, 11:03 AM
I installed the new brake light switch and everything is as good as new. (knock on wood) I appreciate all the help on here and offers to give me a hand. I have come a long way from 2 weeks ago. thanks.

That is fantastic! Congratulations!