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nakman
09-19-2011, 09:31 AM
I heard the Spooky Night Run was going to include a camp out this year.. :camping: :campfire: :camping: :cool:

so figured a quick brainstorm of "best cold weather camping" advise might be appropriate? My personal favorite is the double sleeping bag- I don't have one of those nice 0 bags, but have found that a 20 inside a 20 will keep me pretty toasty. what else do you guys do?

theboomboom
09-19-2011, 09:51 AM
-A warm bottle in your insulated boots keeps them from freezing overnight. Snuggling up with a warm liquid in a *leakproof* container makes those sleeping bags extra toasty. Some folks even bring an empty bottle to bed so they can add warm liquid to it during the night... Not too sure how I feel about that one myself.

-Wear a hat to bed.

-Don't forget to hydrate, you need it just as much during the winter as you do during the summer.

-Dress in layers, stay dry. Wool retains over 80% of its insulative value even when it is wet, cotton kills.

-Wrap orange duct tape on anything that could potentially fall into the snow, makes it easier to find when you do drop it :hill:

SteveH
09-19-2011, 10:17 AM
A foam/inflated type sleeping pad. Not a plain old air mattress. This did more to keep me warm while elk hunting than any other device (including a cot and 3 sleeping bags). At -15 I was warm.

X2 on wearing a hat to bed - that is HUGE.

rover67
09-19-2011, 10:25 AM
I like filling Nalgene's with boiling water, slipping them into wool socks and throwing them in my bag when it's cold out. Nice hot water bottle like rick mentioned.

DaveInDenver
09-19-2011, 10:43 AM
A foam/inflated type sleeping pad. Not a plain old air mattress.
The key here is closed cell vs. open cell. Closed cell foam is much warmer. However it's dense and does not pack. The difference is immediate between open and closed cell foam.

Those huge air mattresses are just terrible in the cold and a lot /worse/ than just sleeping on the ground. The air inside will approach the air temp and sleeping bags almost always have more insulation on top than bottom... The next best is open cell Thermarest-type foam that has lots of small cells. What you are trying to do is prevent air from circulating between warm and cold sides. Thermarests at least warm up in the middle a little.

A Ridge Rest (EVA-type foam) under you is worth 15 degrees of sleeping bag, maybe more. In the 'Nest (which is essentially like sleeping on top of a huge air mattress) we put a layer of Ensolite and an old wool blanket under the mattress, which is 3" of closed cell foam (not all RTTs and campers use closed cell foam, actually most probably don't). Ensolite is the blue cheap-o foam pads at every outdoor store, pretty sure Moses slept on that stuff wandering the desert.

Uncle Ben
09-19-2011, 10:57 AM
Biggest issue has been mentioned. A self inflating air/foam pad and a beanie cap will go a long way towards sleeping all night! The largemouth Gatoraid bottles are indispensible when you are warm and just dont feel like getting out of your bag when the liquid you over indulged in wants to be free at 1, 3 and 5am! :rolleyes: I have several bags but my (my wife now claims it's hers) all cloth -35 Elk hunting bag is the absolute shiznit! Its bulky but its very warm, not slick, and will dry is it gets wet. It is bulky but that's a small (OK...large) trade off. Down bags are the best but they are slick so you'll always end up at the bottom of the slope your tent is on and if they get wet somehow, they wont dry out quickly. Cheap arse +20 bags are slick and drafty. You can always wear sweats to bed and use a cheap bag but if your back or head get cold you will not sleep!

nakman
09-19-2011, 12:49 PM
Alright, I think we've uncovered why I froze my butt off at BFE in March.. I was on one of those inflatable cots- being off the ground is great, the air mattress is comfy, but I shivered the whole night-. So if I put some type of closed cell foam mattress on top of that, I'd be way better?

Yes, wearing a hat.. that one has proven invaluable for Gavin, he loves it. :thumb:

theboomboom
09-19-2011, 01:38 PM
Alright, I think we've uncovered why I froze my butt off at BFE in March.. I was on one of those inflatable cots- being off the ground is great, the air mattress is comfy, but I shivered the whole night-. So if I put some type of closed cell foam mattress on top of that, I'd be way better?

Yup, the general rule of thumb is that whatever you're sleeping on easily accounts for 1/3 of your staying warm. The way a sleeping bag works is by creating dead air space using insulative loft; the more body heat it keeps in, the warmer you stay. You actually crush most of the loft below you when you are in a sleeping bag, so there is very little dead air space and you lose heat through conduction to whatever you're sleeping on. An air mattress or open-cell sleeping pad does not insulate the air inside of it very well, so the air inside becomes the same temperature as the ambient air, and the lack of dead air space below you means your warmth will be sucked out from below!

treerootCO
09-19-2011, 01:52 PM
BAM!!!! (http://www.adventuretrailers.com/heaters.html)

Beater
09-19-2011, 01:55 PM
ditch anything that isn't a designated sleeping mat. air mattresses and the like are for cabins and guest rooms.

I understand the quest for cush, but you don't really get both, cush or warmth. pick one.

wesintl
09-19-2011, 02:13 PM
I've found Jim Beam to keep you warmer than Beer, Tequila or Jack.

http://noethics.net/News/images/stories/jimbeam1.jpg

Inukshuk
09-19-2011, 06:52 PM
I've found Jim Beam to keep you warmer than Beer, Tequila or Jack.

http://noethics.net/News/images/stories/jimbeam1.jpg

But seriously: Hat, long johns top and bottom in the bag, sometimes a wight fleece bag outside the down, and extra sleeping bag or blanket under. Toasty!

When is the Spooky Night Run? I have no ride, but make a great passenger. My 9th annual Halloween Party - The Boo Bash - is 10/29 (all are welcome) ttp://bb9.ezregister.com

Corbet
09-19-2011, 07:15 PM
A closed cell sleeping pad is key. A "ThermaRest" is open cell and will do the same as your air bed. You can also put the sleeping pad inside your sleeping bag. This will work if you want to use the air bed too for comfort purposes.

The other thing that is equally important. Eat a lot of calories before bed. Give you body something to burn all night long to keep warm.

Hat - check.

I like my sleeping bag liner a lot too. Adds a little warmth but mostly wicks away the moisture. For winter I use a down bag with a Gore exterior product. Its almost 20 years old now... Think the product name was "dry loft" but can't remember. Probably something better now anyway. Point is perspiration is a huge enemy in the winter. Anything that will keep you dry will also help keep you warm.

Double walled tent with windows that zip completely up on the inner tent.

But the easiest way to keep warm... Search the origins of the phrase "3 dog night" and call me for rental rates on Porter.:puppykisses:

I've been out at -25+ many times. Ouray gets cold during ice climbing season.

Beater
09-19-2011, 07:56 PM
But the easiest way to keep warm... Search the origins of the phrase "3 dog night" and call me for rental rates on Porter.:puppykisses:

I've been out at -25+ many times. Ouray gets cold during ice climbing season.

average dog body temp is like 109...that's some good spooning.

wesintl
09-19-2011, 08:26 PM
A closed cell sleeping pad is key. A "ThermaRest" is open cell and will do the same as your air bed. You can also put the sleeping pad inside your sleeping bag. This will work if you want to use the air bed too for comfort purposes.

Depends on which thermarest you get. Some have really good r values some are more for summer camping comfort. For lite winter camping like at bfe a thermarest would work well. Decent r value and and some comfort. A true closed cell foam pad are usually for the young and stoic backpackers. I have one I still use from when I was in cub scouts. It keeps me warm but it's not as comfortable as I remember. :o

Romer
09-19-2011, 08:42 PM
a Mr Buddy Hdeater and a CO2 monitor worked great last time I camped in Freezing weather

Caribou Sandstorm
09-19-2011, 08:45 PM
The smaller the tent the better if winter or late fall camping, keeps warmer...

I use a cot to sleep on then I put a thermarest on it and if really cold I put my 0 degree Marmot bag inside a summer Coleman flannel bag.

If you have a small down comforter, you could place that inside your summer flannel Coleman bag, it is the same as sleeping with flannel sheets and a down comforter...

beanie's are key..wool socks key, long underwear never a bad idea.

A down jacket also doubles as a down pillow or great extra level on the kids..

MDH33
09-19-2011, 09:02 PM
Small tent. check.
Wool and fleece blankets on floor. check.
2 warm mummy sleeping bags zipped together (left and right zippered). check.
Wife in sleeping bag with me. check.

Warm and cozy. check.

J Kimmel
09-19-2011, 09:29 PM
hotel, check

massage, check

fireplace, check

remote start, check

ScaldedDog
09-20-2011, 05:42 AM
hotel, check

massage, check

fireplace, check

remote start, check

My kind of camping!

Mark

PhatFJ
09-20-2011, 06:53 AM
Wood / Coal fired stove inside tent, double sleeping bag with wife and oh yes, porta potty inside tent near stove. :thumb: Do not forget the number one rule in ANY camping, keeping the wife warm and happy = good camping... :D

treerootCO
09-20-2011, 07:15 AM
Staying hydrated keeps you warm.

For really cold outings, I wear a smartwool suit that includes glove liners and sock liners. That is followed by an insulating layer, and a water/wind proof shell.

J Kimmel
09-20-2011, 07:53 AM
My kind of camping!

Mark

glad we're on the same page ;)

farnhamstj
09-20-2011, 08:14 AM
My trick is those $1.50 hand warmers. Before bed I stick one in each sock.
I totally agree with everyone about the foam pad. Even the $7 one from wall mart makes a huge difference. Keep the air mattress, but put that foam between you and it. Nalgene full of hot water is good if you are sure you closed it well, otherwise it can be a total disaster. AMHIK

Jacket
09-20-2011, 09:07 AM
The red union suit gets you style points as well.

http://www.warmstuff.com/userfiles/image/union%20suits/redunion02.jpg

Cheeseman
09-20-2011, 05:12 PM
Double bags are great but remember loft is everything so watch that one doesn't compress the other. Bags are rated for a person with no clothes on. So anything you wear after that helps you and the bag survive in colder temperatures. Hope that makes sense. I try not to wear anything except skivvies and a poly top. Don't bury your head inside the bag, guess where all that moisture from your breath goes. I always leave tent flaps/windows unzipped a little for ventilation and moving moisture out of the tent. I don't like that dripping I get in the morning when you start to heat up the tent. If your wore boats with removable liners take them out to dry overnight. Don't put your clothes in your bag overnight, what absorbs the moisture you body gives off. Just put them in in the morning to warm a little. When I wear my warm cap at night I pull it down over my eyes and just cover my nose. Silly I know but keeps you warmer. Oh yah, a biggy. If you have to piss at night do it. Then you body doesn't have to waste energy keeping that fluid warm. And whatever your dreaming of, make sure she is cute.

All for now,

theboomboom
09-20-2011, 06:51 PM
Ooo, another note in regards to sleeping bag ratings-

These ratings are generally the ambient temperature at which the bag will insulate your body enough maintain a core temperature that doesn't put you into hypothermia. It does not mean you will be comfortable in the bag at that temperature. Rule of thumb is always have something rated for 10-15 degrees colder than you expect to see and you should be comfortable.

TIMZTOY
09-20-2011, 10:28 PM
i just buy the coldest bag i can get. if i get to hot i un-zip it. i sleep naked or boxers. so the bag can do its job. typically ill put 1 or 2 t-shirts at the bottom of the bag for my feet to lie in.. i dont like waring socks. but occosionally do put some on. i dont use a hat, because i use a mummy bag and just tighten the lid down.. i used to typically use blankets on the ground folded up to make a pad. and was fine. now because of :Princess: we typically use a air matress, it gets cold. but its comfy..

Hulk
09-20-2011, 10:49 PM
When you get up in the morning, change out of all the clothes that you slept in. Yes, it will be cold, and the fresh clothes that you change into will be much colder than the ones you slept in. But the clothes you slept in are full of moisture, and when you're outside in those dampish clothes, it will be far more difficult to feel warm. Change immediately after rising, all the way down to your undies. The new clothes will warm up quickly, and you'll feel much warmer in the cold morning air in nice dry clothes.

Red_Chili
09-21-2011, 10:52 AM
I use a semi-inflating foam pad, but one designed to insulate rather than just cushion. An air mattress is an invitation to shiver. I love a cot rather than on the ground, but you GOTTA insulate it. The popup has nice foam mattresses that insulate pretty well.

I use a rectangular Slumberjack -30* flannel lined elk hunting bag inside a cheapie +20* rectangular bag, with knit cap. The cheapie bag goes over my face to a greater or lesser degree during the night. I've been comfy cozy warm even with frost on the cheapie bag.

L43dean
09-29-2011, 02:06 PM
Pick up a copy of "Allen & Mikes Really Cool Backcountry Ski Book" from a climbing/ski shop or even the co-op big store. Check out the gear and ask them to show you a balaclava and cagoule. Oh yeah, in the winter I use two foam pads.

TIMZTOY
09-29-2011, 07:23 PM
Pick up a copy of "Allen & Mikes Really Cool Backcountry Ski Book" from a climbing/ski shop or even the co-op big store. or amazon for $3.31 free shipping :hill:

BreckBJ44
09-30-2011, 10:27 AM
The colder it is the less clothes I wear in the bag. The quicker and less restricted my body heat can get into the loft, the better it can insulate without me having to 'work' to maintain the temperature. If I am camping in a cold but humid climate (think Minnesota in November or March) I would wear a very thin but highly wicking fabric like Patagonia Capilene 2 (which is actually less dense than Cap 1). This is only to keep moisture off of my skin. Sweat is meant to cool when it evaporates. In a bag, it goes nowhere so your body heat is used to warm it up. Big waste of energy! My winter camping guru back in MN used to say 'be dry first, then warm'.

As for the next days clothes, I usually put them flat between my bag and my pad as that keeps them warm, but they are not absorbing any moisture from my body.

Rezarf
09-30-2011, 11:52 AM
I use fleece long johns and one of the red suits matt posted.

For me, and I LOVE winter camping, this works...

Closed foam between me and thermarest.
Down blanket over down sleeping bag.
A good pillow makes a difference.
A cozy beanie type hat.
Being roughly 75lbs overweight. I am a hot box. You better start today Nak. ;)

Down is king.
Smartwool is queen.

12v heated blanket in the trailer under the sheets with a down comforter above them makes for some uber comfortable sleeping. I run the electric blanket before we get in and before we get up. And I can bump it at anytime during the night to take the edge off.

wesintl
10-02-2011, 08:56 PM
I just sprung for a luxury map for 4x4 camping. Good R-value, 3" thick. I'll still put my closed cell pad under it. It's pretty comfy. I was going to get a neoair but I don't need a backpacking mat and I wasn't all that impressed with it when I looked at it. Looking forward to sleeping on it in the Maze

http://cascadedesigns.com/therm-a-rest/mattresses/camp-and-comfort/luxurymap/product

nakman
10-07-2011, 10:53 PM
I just sprung for a luxury map for 4x4 camping. Good R-value, 3" thick. I'll still put my closed cell pad under it. It's pretty comfy. I was going to get a neoair but I don't need a backpacking mat and I wasn't all that impressed with it when I looked at it. Looking forward to sleeping on it in the Maze

http://cascadedesigns.com/therm-a-rest/mattresses/camp-and-comfort/luxurymap/product

Nice! I need to get on it, will start watching CL...


BTW, new sig is awesome. It's smooth and subtle, kinda like a St. Ides.. (http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/nakman/st_ides7.mp3) :beer:
http://www.40ouncebeer.com/pics400/stidesbottles.jpg

Woodsman
10-10-2011, 08:15 AM
When I saw the picture above (especially the bottle at the left) it made me think of this.

http://www.amazon.com/24-Hour-Collection-Bottle-GRADUATED-3000ML/dp/B0056X515K/ref=lh_ni_t

Rezarf
10-10-2011, 09:18 AM
I just sprung for a luxury map for 4x4 camping. Good R-value, 3" thick. I'll still put my closed cell pad under it. It's pretty comfy. I was going to get a neoair but I don't need a backpacking mat and I wasn't all that impressed with it when I looked at it. Looking forward to sleeping on it in the Maze

http://cascadedesigns.com/therm-a-rest/mattresses/camp-and-comfort/luxurymap/product

You'll never go back. One of those with a closed cell underneath is uber comfy... best night sleep on the trail I have every had was with that setup- after my RTT that is. Its hard to beat a queen size matress and down comforter on flannel sheets ;):hill:

wesintl
10-10-2011, 09:25 AM
fwiw I searched and searched for a good deal on an XL luxury map. They retail at $149 and I paid $100 shipped. I was at Sports Authority the other day and they had them for $119. I would have paid that if I knew they had them for that $

Jacket
10-10-2011, 12:25 PM
Thanks for the reminder Wes. I forgot that my dog chewed a hole in our mattress on my last trip, so I'll need something for Utah next month.

Did SA have the Dream Time as well?

wesintl
10-10-2011, 12:32 PM
They had others but I didn't really look. I happened to be walking by and saw the thermarests and just looked at the luxury map since I spotted the same color right away and wanted to see how much they were.

pmccumber
10-10-2011, 01:53 PM
I bought one of these. Damn expensive but worth every penny. Air mattress with memory foam on top and a nice, removable soft microfiber cover. Twice as thick as normal thermarest. Very, very comfortable. I went out most weekends this year and camped at trailheads and this thing is just the bomb. Can't backpack with it but for car-camping, best I've seen. I found it to be much warmer than just the airmattresses too.

http://www.rei.com/product/797491/therm-a-rest-dreamtime-sleeping-pad

thelal
10-19-2011, 09:14 PM
Best thing we use for cold camping (Lally's often found with snow in morning or icicles in the tent!) is a hot water bottle going to bed. Heat up the kettle, add in the water, chuck it in the bottom of the sleeping bag for a few mins, jump in .... nice and toasty. Helps getting you to sleep real quick (especially if you have cold toe-sies)

treerootCO
10-20-2011, 07:25 PM
http://www.jeremymurier.com/volcaniccasing.html

wesintl
11-20-2011, 06:42 PM
forgot to ask how your recent winter camping went?

nakman
10-01-2012, 10:30 AM
Does anyone have an Alps Mountaineering sleeping bag? We need new bags...

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/sleeping-bags~d~208/

CardinalFJ60
10-01-2012, 11:02 AM
I picked up a -20 bag before the January pre-outlaws run with Perry. It's a decent bag for the price. I was toasty warm down to about 10, that one is BIG though. It doesn't pack down very small.

STP has those smokin' email coupons. I picked up my -20 bag for like $38. Oh wait...do I have Alps? or Big Agnes??? jeeesh, I can't remember now.

farnhamstj
10-01-2012, 11:50 AM
Both my kids are in Alps bags. No complaints.

Inukshuk
10-01-2012, 06:39 PM
i Picked Up A -20 Bag Before The January Pre-outlaws Run With Perry. It's A Decent Bag For The Price. I Was Toasty Warm Down To About 10, That One Is Big Though. It Doesn't Pack Down Very Small.

Stp Has Those Smokin' Email Coupons. I Picked Up My -20 Bag For Like $38. Oh Wait...do I Have Alps? Or Big Agnes??? Jeeesh, I Can't Remember Now.

Stp?

Corbet
10-01-2012, 07:13 PM
Sierra Trading Post

Caribou Sandstorm
10-01-2012, 07:52 PM
Down is absolutely the way to fly, good choice Tim. I would recommend a zero degree bag over a 5 or 20 degree, if you can swing the -20, well your covered on all bases.

I have a Marmot dry loft zero degree, it was one of the best investments I ever made and I have always been warm enough no matter what time of year.

Corbet
10-01-2012, 09:17 PM
Down is good if you know you can keep it dry. And a Gore Dry Loft or similar outer material is worth the extra cost. Mine is nearly 20 years old now still in good shape.

If you fear your gear will get wet. Or want something easier to clean then buy a synthetic bag. They are generally more affordable too. A lot easier to deal with when your kid pukes up milk and bananas in the middle of the night at BFE in March.

Cheeseman
10-02-2012, 11:27 AM
It's interesting that you are all buying these heavy cold bags. By that I mean the 0degree and -20 degree bags. Thought all you guys were getting to old to camp in that cold of weather. Remember that sleeping bag temperature ratings are taken with a person inside with nothing on as far a clothes. So when most of you put on your polypros or cotton shirts and sweats you are actually lowering the temperature rating of the bag. in other words a 20degree bag now becomes a 10 degree bag. When I was backpacking a lot I bought a warmer bag because I was already carrying the clothing to make it warmer and thus saved weight. But do not store your down bags in the stuff sack. Always hang them to dry and store if you can. Constant compression is pure death to down. And always lay them out to dry when camping to get rid of your body moisture that was absorbed during the night when camping. And buy the highest loft down you can afford. 700 to 800 fill power down.

CardinalFJ60
10-02-2012, 11:33 AM
If you fear your gear will get wet. Or want something easier to clean then buy a synthetic bag. They are generally more affordable too. A lot easier to deal with when your kid pukes up milk and bananas in the middle of the night at BFE in March.


:lmao::lmao::lmao:

nakman
10-02-2012, 12:51 PM
Cheeseman, I'm not sure if it's getting old or just wanting to stretch the season. We seem to start camping in March now, and wrap things up by November... from my own personal experience a 20 bag wasn't enough at BFE in March. But 2 20 bags was just dreamy in Canyonlands in November- one inside the other. Our kids also like the double bag thing when we're all in the camper, makes it comfy and they have lots of options, but as I'm looking at packing to get the whole clan down to Canyonlands again I'm not sure 8 sleeping bags is really that practical, so it may be time to retire some of those older ones.

The thing that's turning me off today though is what Cardinal pointed out- just how huge those stuff sacks are on some of the cheaper bags. I'm also pretty terrible when it comes to storage, things tend to just stay in their stuff sacks all year long, so aiming low on the temperature scale in my head compensates somewhat for the additional fill compression.

Cheeseman
10-02-2012, 01:34 PM
Yah that is what I tell my new scout parents. By a 25degree bag for the bulk of the year and then use an old one and double bag for those 2 times in the winter.

Don't be afraid to buy a smaller stuff sack than what comes with the bag. I've been downsizing stuff sacks for a long time now and it works pretty good. Gotta push a little harder with the smaller stuff sack but they can fit.

As for storage, sounds like you need another shelf in the garage. And at least hang them up for a day or two after every use. Same goes for tents.

Crash
10-02-2012, 01:51 PM
Buy the best and only cry once. I still get regular and comfortable use out of the Class Five down bag purchased new in 1973 at the Breckenridge Ski Shop from George Karras - the same year I bought my first FJ40 from Stevinson Toyota when they were a little bitty shop at W 7th Ave and Sheridan Blvd. Should have kept that '67 40 as it was pristine. Gotta say though, the '77 now in the garage is pretty darn pristine. Treat good stuff right and it will pay you back tenfold and that goes for friends, too.

txanm
10-02-2012, 10:08 PM
I bought a canvas tent (Kodiak...Ouch), we will see if it makes a difference. I plan on going with the Mr Heater and bringing my monitor from work to eliminate the death factor.

I need bags for the kids though Tim so let me know what you find out.

Jenny Cruiser
10-03-2012, 07:37 AM
Cheeseman, I'm not sure if it's getting old or just wanting to stretch the season. We seem to start camping in March now, and wrap things up by November...

With how dry the summers are now and all the restrictions we have, late and early season is the best time to go camping IMO. I love the RTTs for this. Much warmer/comfortable and easier to deal with if you're not doing the trailer thingy. When I'm on the ground the thermarest and a fleece liner seem to do the trick for me and my 0 degree bag. Not feeling cold fabric on my skin is so nice.

Corbet
10-04-2012, 07:21 AM
Its about having the right size bag too. If your 5'5" and the bag is designed for a 6'4" adult your feet will always be cold trying to heat that extra space.

So if your kids are cold tie something around the bottom of an oversized bag to knock the volume down some. Or fold it under.

Greg brought up a great point about storage of down bags. You need to leave them lofted either in a LARGE oversized storage bag or best to hang them in a closet. I know that's been key to keeping mine in great shape for 20 years despite 100s of nights of use.

txanm
10-06-2012, 10:49 AM
Tim,

I have been researching sleeping pads a lot lately & settled on the Therm-a-rest Dreamtime pad. It is a car camping only pad, but I don't plan on hiking anywhere to sleep, just wheeling there. It isn't cheap, but REI will give you 20% off right now for a single item if you are a member.

I tried to find the Mr Heater but all I could find so far is the large one that heats 4000 sq ft. I plan on having that & coupled with the canvas tent we should be pretty warm.

Things I have read to stay warm:
1.)Sleep as close to the ground as possible
2.) Use a bag that is rated 20 degrees below the actual temp
3.) Use a Canvas tent to retain some heat
4.) If not canvas then use the smallest tent you can stand
5.) Change clothes immediately when you wake up. Your clothes you sleep in will have moisture & you will freeze when you get out of bed.
6.) Drink hard liquor. Okay, I might have made up that last one but it makes sense to me! :cheers: