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74fj40
06-24-2006, 08:15 PM
We have a 72 fj40 with F engine - just rebuilt.
New 180 degree thermostat
New 2F water pump with fan clutch and fan from a 60
Fan shroud is installed
13 lb radiator cap with release lever
We burped the radiator
New 4 core radiator
New oem head gasket, correctly installed.
After market electric water temp guage
After we start the engine, it takes less than 5 minutes to heat all the way up to 280.
I am totally out of ideas - is there anyone that can either shed some light on what the problem might be, or that can spend a little time helping us figure it out?:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:
TIA, Max and Max's dad.

wesintl
06-24-2006, 08:58 PM
you were driving it for a while right? did this just start happening?

280 is with a mechanical gage?

Romer
06-24-2006, 10:00 PM
You didn't mention anti-freeze, but I'm sure you used that.

The fan clutch might be bad?

74fj40
06-24-2006, 10:00 PM
It's always run hot, about the third mark on the mechanical guage - just installed the electric guage and verified that it was indeed hot. Seems like it may be a little warmer since we installed the new fan/clutch....

you were driving it for a while right? did this just start happening?

280 is with a mechanical gage?

Romer
06-24-2006, 10:52 PM
You said it was froma 60, is it new or used?

treerootCO
06-24-2006, 11:12 PM
missing o-ring on top of the thermostat 2Fs have them, not sure about F
too much antifreeze
too lean
too rich
too far advanced
too far retarded
thermostat not opening or opening too soon
cavitation
blown headgasket
wrong headgasket
timing is 180 off
oiling problem
bad sender or wrong sender
no fan shroud
kinked hose
scale/blockage
defective water pump
loose fan belt
wrong or defective cam
miss adjusted valves
vacuum leaks
bad brake booster
choke not opening
blocked radiator internal or external
any kind of friction internally
heater hoses routed incorrectly
too much compression
low oil level
cracked block/head
fan not close enough to radiator some years had spacers
lead foot
assembly lube in oil
miss adjusted float level
defective fan clutch
defective radiator cap
restricted exhaust including that little flapper that usually is broken
cracked intake manifold
warped intake/exhaust manifolds or bad gasket

Romer
06-24-2006, 11:21 PM
I heard that an upside down thermostate could do this. Can't remember if you can do that on a f or 2F though, been a while.

74fj40
06-25-2006, 09:01 AM
Couple of questions -
-about heater hose routing - does it matter which way the coolant flows through the heater core?
-how does the fan clutch work? I know that the clutch is filled with silicone and that when a certain temp is reached the little thermostat at the front forces the silicone, and tightens the fan onto the metal rod it's mounted on - but, the fan always seems to turn, regardless of the temperature - does it just go faster when it engages?
-what to do about a broken heat riser and missing flap?
Thanks!


missing o-ring on top of the thermostat 2Fs have them, not sure about F
o-ring is there
too much antifreeze
50/50
too lean
possible, but don't think so
too rich
possible, but don't think so
too far advanced
possible, but don't think so
too far retarded
possible, but don't think so
thermostat not opening or opening too soon
I tested it yesterday in a pan of boiling water with a thermometer - it's fine
cavitation
not sure how to test for this
blown headgasket
brand new oem installed correctly yesterday
wrong headgasket
possible, but don't think so
timing is 180 off
possible, but don't think so
oiling problem
possible, but don't think so
bad sender or wrong sender
brand new with new temp guage same issue with mechanical temp guage sender, which was also new
no fan shroud
fan shroud installed
kinked hose
nope
scale/blockage
brand new radiator, head cleaned by machine shop, block inspected and cleaned
defective water pump
brand new, older pump had same issues
loose fan belt
nope
wrong or defective cam
correct cam, possible that it's defective, but don't think so
miss adjusted valves
valves adjusted by mechanic when preparing for emissions test
vacuum leaks
possible, but don't think so
bad brake booster
possible, but don't think so - new updated booster from a 4 runner, no leaks
choke not opening
possible, but don't think so - carb inspected by mechanic
blocked radiator internal or external
possible, but don't think so - new radiator
any kind of friction internally
possible
heater hoses routed incorrectly
see question at top
too much compression
possible - will check
low oil level
nope
cracked block/head
nope
fan not close enough to radiator some years had spacers
fan is about 3/4" from radiator
lead foot
yep - but, heats up before we actually drive it
assembly lube in oil
we've changed oil 5 times since rebuild
miss adjusted float level
adjusted by mechanic
defective fan clutch
Possible
defective radiator cap
new and overheating happenned with older cap too
restricted exhaust including that little flapper that usually is broken
possible - heat riser is broken - flap missing
cracked intake manifold
not yet
warped intake/exhaust manifolds or bad gasket
new gasket, don't believe there are any leaks

74fj40
06-25-2006, 09:04 AM
I thought this was possible too, but we posted something on mud and Poser said no - we have it installed with the narrow end facing up.
I heard that an upside down thermostate could do this. Can't remember if you can do that on a f or 2F though, been a while.

treerootCO
06-25-2006, 09:28 AM
The heater comment was more about the oil cooler found on later 2F engines. You could connect it so there is no water flowing through it.

and......I don't trust most of the mechanics out there;)

I won't be around much for the next week or so but I could take a look at it after that. It is a lot easier to troubleshoot something if you can see and poke it a bit.

Uncle Ben
06-25-2006, 11:15 AM
I would put my money on a plugged water passage in the block or a upside down thermostat. F's are natorious for plugged/caked up water jackets usually around the center and rear most cylinders. 2F's started putting steam holes at the head deck to relieve dead coolant movement problem. Heater cores usually flow from bottom to top (heat rises) while radiators flow from top to bottom.

Good luck! :o

74fj40
06-25-2006, 12:48 PM
Thanks - I think we're going to need it.
Suppose it were a plugged passage in the block - what's the easiest way to clean it out? PLease don't tell me we have to take it out!!!!!!
Thanks.
I would put my money on a plugged water passage in the block or a upside down thermostat. F's are natorious for plugged/caked up water jackets usually around the center and rear most cylinders. 2F's started putting steam holes at the head deck to relieve dead coolant movement problem. Heater cores usually flow from bottom to top (heat rises) while radiators flow from top to bottom.

Good luck! :o

Uncle Ben
06-25-2006, 03:06 PM
Thanks - I think we're going to need it.
Suppose it were a plugged passage in the block - what's the easiest way to clean it out? PLease don't tell me we have to take it out!!!!!!
Thanks.


OK....I won't but.......... :(

You could try some cleaning products to loosen it and back flush it but that would be really good fortune if it worked. You could pop out a freeze plug and see how it looks. The build up usually happens at the rear half of the block where the coolant flow is the slowest. I do hope a plugged block isn't the problem but it does happen when the coolant isn't changed few years.

74fj40
06-25-2006, 03:59 PM
sob

OK....I won't but.......... :(

You could try some cleaning products to loosen it and back flush it but that would be really good fortune if it worked. You could pop out a freeze plug and see how it looks. The build up usually happens at the rear half of the block where the coolant flow is the slowest. I do hope a plugged block isn't the problem but it does happen when the coolant isn't changed few years.

74fj40
06-26-2006, 10:44 AM
Thanks for the offer of help - trully appreciate it.
Max
The heater comment was more about the oil cooler found on later 2F engines. You could connect it so there is no water flowing through it.

and......I don't trust most of the mechanics out there;)

I won't be around much for the next week or so but I could take a look at it after that. It is a lot easier to troubleshoot something if you can see and poke it a bit.

Rzeppa
06-26-2006, 07:32 PM
missing o-ring on top of the thermostat 2Fs have them, not sure about F <snip extensive list of just about everything> ;-)

Good list Mike. FYI, missing o-ring will make it run cool when ambient temperature is low, can't make it run too hot.

Rzeppa
06-26-2006, 07:35 PM
I heard that an upside down thermostate could do this. Can't remember if you can do that on a f or 2F though, been a while.I don't think it will fit the housing upside down, but besides, it's either open or closed:

Rzeppa
06-26-2006, 07:45 PM
I would put my money on a plugged water passage in the block or a upside down thermostat. F's are natorious for plugged/caked up water jackets usually around the center and rear most cylinders. 2F's started putting steam holes at the head deck to relieve dead coolant movement problem. Heater cores usually flow from bottom to top (heat rises) while radiators flow from top to bottom.

Good luck! :oGood idea Kevin. Both F blocks I recently stripped were REALLY blocked at the lower, rear passenger side drain hole of the water jacket. On the block I used for my build, I ended up using a drill to clear out the crud after poking and scraping with a screwdriver was ineffective. After I got a hole going with a drill, I then used the screwdriver and several other various poking-scraping implements to clear the passage. Inside, there was crud, but it will aloow free flow of coolant.

I can see the advantage to having one's block dipped.

For Max's issue, I'm not entirely sure having the lower, rear portion of the block's water jacket filled with crud would necessarily lead to coolant temps being too high. That part of the engine doesn't see nearly as much heat as the head. My guess is that it's an overall heat-shedding problem rather than a hot spot. Similar to so many improperly done V8 conversions.

Rzeppa
06-26-2006, 07:52 PM
OK....I won't but.......... :(

You could try some cleaning products to loosen it and back flush it but that would be really good fortune if it worked. You could pop out a freeze plug and see how it looks. The build up usually happens at the rear half of the block where the coolant flow is the slowest. I do hope a plugged block isn't the problem but it does happen when the coolant isn't changed few years.It happens that on F engine water jacket components, the only aluminum is the t-stat housing. The water pump housing on a stock F is cast iron, unlike the aluminum housing on 2F and up. For this reason, a muriatic acid soak/flush might be feasable, inexpensive and potentially efficacious.

Uncle Ben
06-26-2006, 08:07 PM
For Max's issue, I'm not entirely sure having the lower, rear portion of the block's water jacket filled with crud would necessarily lead to coolant temps being too high. That part of the engine doesn't see nearly as much heat as the head. My guess is that it's an overall heat-shedding problem rather than a hot spot. Similar to so many improperly done V8 conversions.


Who said anything about the lower portion of the block? :confused:

treerootCO
06-26-2006, 09:32 PM
IMO the purpose of a thermostat is to keep coolant in the radiator long enough for it to dissipate the heat. I run a hotter thermostat and it keeps my engine cooler. If the upper o-ring was missing it could potentially rattle around and let coolant past before it has a chance to cool. It would be a restriction either way and probably wouldn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

Rzeppa
06-26-2006, 09:51 PM
Who said anything about the lower portion of the block? :confused:I did, based on visual observations of the last couple of blocks I was inside, and was adding and amplifying on your comment about the flow being less in the rear of the block's water jacket.

74fj40
06-26-2006, 10:00 PM
For this reason, a muriatic acid soak/flush might be feasable, inexpensive and potentially efficacious.

do you have any mroe info on this? can it ben while the engine is in the car? or does the engine have to be completely torn apart?


thanks in advanced

nuclearlemon
06-26-2006, 10:16 PM
drain rad fluid. fill with flush...run engine to operating temps, drain, flush a couple times and refill with antifreeze/water mix.

Rzeppa
06-26-2006, 10:43 PM
drain rad fluid. fill with flush...run engine to operating temps, drain, flush a couple times and refill with antifreeze/water mix.What Ige said. Basically, you don't want the muriatic acid anywhere near anything aluminum, such as the t-stat housing, it'll eat it up. But cast iron like the block, head or F water pump housing won't care.

treerootCO
06-26-2006, 10:49 PM
Ige forgot a major part! First you need to buy an all original '64 40 that hasn't run in 25 years but fired right up and even had brakes. Then after the whole flushing process, you leave nice clean water in the block the ONE DAY IT GOT COLD ENOUGH TO FREEZE SOLID!! :D

At least that is my experience when I cracked the block in two. :hill:

wesintl
06-26-2006, 11:00 PM
remove the flux capacitor. They don't work well at altitude :lmao:

has to be something treeroot listed. He covered most everything :D Let me know if you need a hand otherwise i'll be sealing up a tranny and xfer. I might need a hand if you guys have a 1/2 hour or so getting it back in.

74fj40
06-27-2006, 07:03 AM
can't remove the flux capacitor - only way we can afford to run it...:) We'll be around - just let us know when..

remove the flux capacitor. They don't work well at altitude :lmao:

has to be something treeroot listed. He covered most everything :D Let me know if you need a hand otherwise i'll be sealing up a tranny and xfer. I might need a hand if you guys have a 1/2 hour or so getting it back in.

74fj40
06-27-2006, 07:04 AM
hey wes, thanks for the offer. and we'll most likely have to take you up on that.

but if you still want help on putting the tranny and xfer back in, just let me know

74fj40
07-04-2006, 11:50 AM
OK- checked the compression numbers today.

1-120
2-118
3-119
4-120
5-120
6-120

Romer
07-04-2006, 12:31 PM
Great numbers. Did you reset it between each cyl. Some testers need to be and some don't.

So are you up and running again?

74fj40
07-04-2006, 01:31 PM
unfortunately, no....still running very hot....

We did reset the guage between cylinders..
Then we squirted a little oil in each cylinder and the compression readings went up to about 130-135 per cylinder - I know this may mean that the rings aren't seated correctly - would this happen on a fresh rebuild, and the rings still breaking in?

Rzeppa
07-04-2006, 02:29 PM
Then we squirted a little oil in each cylinder and the compression readings went up to about 130-135 per cylinder - I know this may mean that the rings aren't seated correctly - would this happen on a fresh rebuild, and the rings still breaking in?It's possible, how many miles on the rebuild?

74fj40
07-04-2006, 03:22 PM
Maybe 400....

It's possible, how many miles on the rebuild?

Rzeppa
07-14-2006, 07:58 AM
I just re-read the original post, where it said that it had a water pump and fan clutch from a 60 - which would mean a couple things. 60s have an oil cooler and an extra hose fitting for the oil cooler. What happened to that? Is it blocked or do you have an oil cooler (with corresponding t-stat housing with hose fitting)?

And, fan clutches are notorious for not working properly. Even new ones. Mark Whatley has written about how all the aftermarket fan clutches he's been getting lately are too small to be effective for a 2F and he's gone back to OEM. Used ones can have worn out silicone fluid or none from leaking out. They can be rebuilt and new fluid is available from dealer. I've seen more stories about overheating problems solved by replacing/rebuilding/replenishing the fluid in the fan clutch solved overheating problems in a stock setup than any other cause.

74fj40
07-14-2006, 08:30 AM
Sorry - should have updated the thread - we removed the newer water pump and replaced it with the old and an 8 blade direct drive fan.
Made no difference in the temps....

I just re-read the original post, where it said that it had a water pump and fan clutch from a 60 - which would mean a couple things. 60s have an oil cooler and an extra hose fitting for the oil cooler. What happened to that? Is it blocked or do you have an oil cooler (with corresponding t-stat housing with hose fitting)?

And, fan clutches are notorious for not working properly. Even new ones. Mark Whatley has written about how all the aftermarket fan clutches he's been getting lately are too small to be effective for a 2F and he's gone back to OEM. Used ones can have worn out silicone fluid or none from leaking out. They can be rebuilt and new fluid is available from dealer. I've seen more stories about overheating problems solved by replacing/rebuilding/replenishing the fluid in the fan clutch solved overheating problems in a stock setup than any other cause.