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ToddD
09-30-2011, 11:41 PM
...there are many like it but this one is mine!

I've failed twice. These are the numbers from the first time.
HC 1.5418, the limit is 2.5
CO 32.7392, the limit is 25.0
CO2 710
NOx 4.4209, the limit is 4.5
After the first run I replaced air filter with OEM unit, seafoam in the tank and in the booster hose into the intake. I'm really curious if residual seafoam goofed up the test... idk.
Here are the numbers from the second time, WAY worse than the first time, failed on HC and bad on the CO.
HC 4.94
CO 156.16
CO2 593.2345
NOx 2.84

No CEL, new plugs, cap, rotor. I haven't used heet because I don't just want to pass, I want to figure out why my rig is causing such bad numbers.
I'll be under the hood Sunday testing whatever I can.
Temp testing cats is one of the things on the list.

I just got this rig, it's had a rough life and it shows it.
I'm looking for things to do on Sunday, the soonest I'll be able to work on it, keeping in mind that money is tight and I haven't been down this road with an 80 before.
PinHead on MUD thinks it could be injectors due to the lack of a CEL. So I'll add testing injectors to the list. I got a thread going on there as well.
Failed E Test (http://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/520570-failed-emissions-test.html)
Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

MDH33
10-01-2011, 08:28 AM
looking at your first set of numbers, it seems like the only number that was too high was CO? When I was trying to get mine to pass, I did the typical tune-up, air filter, and also added 3 bottles of Heet to a nearly empty tank of fuel and it really lowered the numbers, especially CO. Might be worth a try. :thumb:

That second set of numbers is curious. :confused:



I still haven't been able to get my HC down. :banghead:

Snowrun
10-01-2011, 08:39 AM
...there are many like it but this one is mine!

I've failed twice. These are the numbers from the first time.
HC 1.5418, the limit is 2.5
CO 32.7392, the limit is 25.0
CO2 710
NOx 4.4209, the limit is 4.5
After the first run I replaced air filter with OEM unit, seafoam in the tank and in the booster hose into the intake. I'm really curious if residual seafoam goofed up the test... idk.
Here are the numbers from the second time, WAY worse than the first time, failed on HC and bad on the CO.
HC 4.94
CO 156.16
CO2 593.2345
NOx 2.84

No CEL, new plugs, cap, rotor. I haven't used heet because I don't just want to pass, I want to figure out why my rig is causing such bad numbers.
I'll be under the hood Sunday testing whatever I can.
Temp testing cats is one of the things on the list.

I just got this rig, it's had a rough life and it shows it.
I'm looking for things to do on Sunday, the soonest I'll be able to work on it, keeping in mind that money is tight and I haven't been down this road with an 80 before.
PinHead on MUD thinks it could be injectors due to the lack of a CEL. So I'll add testing injectors to the list. I got a thread going on there as well.
Failed E Test (http://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/520570-failed-emissions-test.html)
Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

Having just gone through this I feel for you.

Did you adjust the timing after replacing the cap and rotor?
Do you have an FSM?
I would check the following using the procedures outlined in the FSM.

1. EGR vacuum modulator. (Disconnect the P,Q,R hoses, they are the three on the top. Block P and R and blow into Q it's the one that's attached to the EGR. Air should pass through the filter freely).

2. Check the EGR valve (Pull the vacuum tube between the EGR and the top of the clamshell and while at idle suck on it. The engine should stubble if the EGR is good) (let me know if you need a pic of the vacuum hose) It reduces NOx

3. Measure the impedance on the VSV valves. Your 93 will have one for the EGR system and one for the PAIR reed valve. It should be between 30-34 ohms at room temp for the EGR VSV and 37-44ohms for the Pair reed VSV.(you can do this while it is on truck). Also air should flow freely through it when voltage is not applied to it. (More of a bench test than something you do on the truck). (If you want to bench test them let me know and I will explain how to get them out. Most of the threads on MUD talk about 95 and later models. Your 93 will require pulling the throttle body to get it out) If the VSVS are bad the EGR or PAIR reed will not function as they should.

4. Check the hoses for breaks and cracks. There are a few vacuum hoses inside the clam shell that get exposed to a lot of heat and can get pretty brittle.

5. Check the PAIR reed itself. You will need a vacuum gauge for this. It's purpose is to mix in "fresh" air with the exhaust to help the catalytic conversion process. It reduces CO and HC in the exhaust. I have however heard of 93/94's still passing with out them. (You of course will fail the visual without one)

6. 02 Sensors. I just replaced mine as PM but I think the testing involves measuring impedance while applying heat to the sensor.

7. Replace the PCV valve(it's cheap) on the top of the valve cover. It reduces HC (Oh and make sure to have some needle nose handy to pick out the gasket when it breaks)

8. CATS. There is the temp test you spoke of and I tried it and everything looked okay even though they were not properly functioning. I suspect that in my case the issue was a contaminated element (I suspect blowing a HG can cause this). The CATS reduce HC,NOx, and CO

9. Fuel injectors and Fuel pressure regulator.

Check out my thread to take a look at the reports as I swapped out components.

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showthread.php?t=16407


Let us know the results of your tests or if you need anything.
:thumb::wrench:

ToddD
10-01-2011, 09:27 AM
Having just gone through this I feel for you.

Did you adjust the timing after replacing the cap and rotor?
Do you have an FSM?
I would check the following using the procedures outlined in the FSM.

1. EGR vacuum modulator. (Disconnect the P,Q,R hoses, they are the three on the top. Block P and R and blow into Q it's the one that's attached to the EGR. Air should pass through the filter freely).

2. Check the EGR valve (Pull the vacuum tube between the EGR and the top of the clamshell and while at idle suck on it. The engine should stubble if the EGR is good) (let me know if you need a pic of the vacuum hose) It reduces NOx

3. Measure the impedance on the VSV valves. Your 93 will have one for the EGR system and one for the PAIR reed valve. It should be between 30-34 ohms at room temp (you can do this while it is on truck). Also air should flow freely through it when voltage is not applied to it. (More of a bench test than something you do on the truck). (If you want to bench test them let me know and I will explain how to get them out. Most of the threads on MUD talk about 95 and later models. Your 93 will require pulling the throttle body to get it out) If the VSVS are bad the EGR or PAIR reed will not function as they should.

4. Check the hoses for breaks and cracks. There are a few vacuum hoses inside the clam shell that get exposed to a lot of heat and can get pretty brittle.

5. Check the PAIR reed itself. You will need a vacuum gauge for this. It's purpose is to mix in "fresh" air with the exhaust to help the catalytic conversion process. It reduces CO and HC in the exhaust. I have however heard of 93/94's still passing with out them. (You of course will fail the visual without one)

6. 02 Sensors. I just replaced mine as PM but I think the testing involves measuring impedance while applying heat to the sensor.

7. Replace the PCV valve(it's cheap) on the top of the valve cover. It reduces HC (Oh and make sure to have some needle nose handy to pick out the gasket when it breaks)

8. CATS. There is the temp test you spoke of and I tried it and everything looked okay even though they were not properly functioning. I suspect that in my case the issue was a contaminated element (I suspect blowing a HG can cause this). The CATS reduce HC,NOx, and CO

Check out my thread to take a look at the reports as I swapped out components.

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showthread.php?t=16407


Let us know the results of your tests or if you need anything.
:thumb::wrench:

Thanks for the list, that's very helpful, I have a feeling my cats could be in bad shape because of the blown HG but I want to check into everything I can.
:cheers:

Snowrun
10-01-2011, 09:49 AM
Thanks for the list, that's very helpful, I have a feeling my cats could be in bad shape because of the blown HG but I want to check into everything I can.
:cheers:

They probably are. After all they are probably about 18 years old . I was however disappointed in how little they actually affected the numbers once I swapped mine out. On the plus side I saw a dramatic power gain. I bet that you find out that the EGR vacuum module is bad as well as one or two of the VSV's and a few vacuum hoses. I bet the EGR itself tests okay. They seem pretty simple and sturdy.

BTW I updated my original post to include the proper resistance values for the VSV's per the FSM.

ToddD
10-02-2011, 12:18 AM
They probably are. After all they are probably about 18 years old . I was however disappointed in how little they actually affected the numbers once I swapped mine out. On the plus side I saw a dramatic power gain. I bet that you find out that the EGR vacuum module is bad as well as one or two of the VSV's and a few vacuum hoses. I bet the EGR itself tests okay. They seem pretty simple and sturdy.

BTW I updated my original post to include the proper resistance values for the VSV's per the FSM.

Thanks, my girlfriend probably thinks your thread is my wallpaper by now. On the graph you put up there is a sharp spike around 160 seconds. I had 2 of those spikes on my first test that I think caused the failure and the second test was littered with those spikes... I have no idea what caused them.
The way the weekend is looking I won't have time to work on the pig until... idk.. Tuesday maybe but I'm really curious about what happened when I disconnected the battery so I'm going to stop at the testing center Monday morning and test it again. The first test was close and I think the second test was some weird fluke. We'll see if throwing away another $25 makes me feel any different.
A couple of other reasons I'm going back Monday are the old fuel in the tank, age unknown, is almost totally burnt away, the seafoam in the tank is almost gone with it, the seafoam treatment I did to the engine is around 60 +/- miles behind me and after I disconnected the battery the other day it feels different so I want to know what that equals out the pipe. Not like that justifies wasting $25 in a recession but I'm really damn curious.
Thanks again
:/ end of rant.

ToddD
10-02-2011, 12:41 PM
Is this correct? I didn't know what to tag '3' as. I guess it's just EGR valve to intake.
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j473/ToddDennison/80/PQvac.jpg

There's some rumble and shake coming from here for less than a minute at start up when cold. I can't find it in the FSM. It even shakes the air intake housing a little. Kind of like a little bass drum.
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j473/ToddDennison/80/rummble.jpg

Never mind... found the hose diagram, still need to figure out what my little bass drum part is called...
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j473/ToddDennison/80/Picture2.png

I've got good flow out of R not very good flow out of P.

Also, I'm thinking I'm missing a hose. See yellow arrow, there's a place to attach a vac line. Also, another attachment point next to the intake end of the P line.
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j473/ToddDennison/80/missing.jpg
Play time is over for today. Time to head up to Evergreen to cut firewood at the family's place.
Thanks again for any thoughts. I was hoping to get more testing done but ran out of time.

Snowrun
10-02-2011, 09:20 PM
Your labeling all looks good to me. The object you have the big red arrow pointing at is the PAIR reed valve(they make a funny noise at startup).

I will check out my rig to see if I have a hose where it looks like one is missing. Make sure that P and R are both plugged connected on both ends. A missing vacuum hose could cause a piece of emissions not to function properly.

Also I noticed you have a blue top EGR Vacuum Module so someone has likely already swapped it. Most of the old ones are green. When you tested it when you blocked P and R would air flow through it?

To do the test on the EGR pull the hose you labeled 3 while the truck is running and suck on it. The engine should stumble.

Snowrun
10-03-2011, 08:40 PM
I checked this morning and it looks like the 93's hoses are routed differently than the 94 so I am not sure what should be plugged into that "port". We have a few very technical '93 owners on the forum here that can probably chime in and get us an answer.

ToddD
10-03-2011, 09:31 PM
"I checked this morning and it looks like the 93's hoses are routed differently than the 94 so I am not sure what should be plugged into that "port". We have a few very technical '93 owners on the forum here that can probably chime in and get us an answer."

Thanks for checking, I'm curious about it, I'm pretty sure something is missing. There was a very old piece of vac hose on the port that isn't visible in my photos. It's the one on the intake.

I was running around today and my route took me by Air Care so I had to dip in.
3rd round numbers
HC 4.86 Limit 2.5 = fail
CO 133.78 Limit 25.00 fail
CO2 585.80
NOx 2.6 Limit 4.5 PASS!!!!

So it's still failing.
This is from the FSM regarding high CO
1. Restricted air filter
2. Faulty SFI systems:
Faulty pressure regulator
Clogged fuel return line
Defective ECT sensor
Faulty ECM
Faulty injector
Faulty throttle position sensor
Faulty MAF meter

My air filter is new and I have cleaned the MAF.
Still have plenty of work to do...

ToddD
10-07-2011, 02:46 PM
I've been thinking about my injectors and I'm going to pull them and have them properly serviced. Guys on MUD recommend RC but I'd like to use a local indy shop.
Any recommendations?

Also, check out this photo, when I had everything torn down for the hg replacement I discovered that someone has customized the #6 injector. Sorry it's a bad photo but it's the only one I found. The injector is hiding out in the intake, since I couldn't remove it from the harness.
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j473/ToddDennison/80/injectorwires.jpg
The factory clip has been removed and it's been rewired. I looks like someone may have soldered 2 wires directly to the injector then filled in the rest of the hole with some type of epoxy. So basically, the plug hole on the injector is a solid mound with 2 wires coming out of it.
I remember the #6 plug being wet with fuel when I removed it but I thought, at the time, with the hg failure at #6 that the plug might have been totally fouled out and not firing, hence a plug that is wet with fuel. Or, the injector is just dumping fuel straight through it. Based on my E test results, it's dumping fuel through the engine, cause still unknown.

The only way to remove #6 injector is to cut the wires. If I was to replace the injector, obviously, this is the time. I would also have to order a new connector and wire that in as well.
I'm curious what issues this 'rewiring' may have caused.
Should I replace this injector or see if it can be cleaned and tested and reinstall it?

Anyone know of a local shop I can take these injectors to for testing and cleaning?

Uncle Ben
10-07-2011, 02:53 PM
Not local but very fast turn around and excellent work= www.witchhunter.com RC is awesome and pretty quick but pricey!
I've been thinking about my injectors and I'm going to pull them and have them properly serviced. Guys on MUD recommend RC but I'd like to use a local indy shop.
Any recommendations?

Also, check out this photo, when I had everything torn down for the hg replacement I discovered that someone has customized the #6 injector. Sorry it's a bad photo but it's the only one I found. The injector is hiding out in the intake, since I couldn't remove it from the harness.
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j473/ToddDennison/80/injectorwires.jpg
The factory clip has been removed and it's been rewired. I looks like someone may have soldered 2 wires directly to the injector then filled in the rest of the hole with some type of epoxy. So basically, the plug hole on the injector is a solid mound with 2 wires coming out of it.
I remember the #6 plug being wet with fuel when I removed it but I thought, at the time, with the hg failure at #6 that the plug might have been totally fouled out and not firing, hence a plug that is wet with fuel. Or, the injector is just dumping fuel straight through it. Based on my E test results, it's dumping fuel through the engine, cause still unknown.

The only way to remove #6 injector is to cut the wires. If I was to replace the injector, obviously, this is the time. I would also have to order a new connector and wire that in as well.
I'm curious what issues this 'rewiring' may have caused.
Should I replace this injector or see if it can be cleaned and tested and reinstall it?

Anyone know of a local shop I can take these injectors to for testing and cleaning?

Snowrun
10-07-2011, 03:02 PM
Not local but very fast turn around and excellent work= www.witchhunter.com RC is awesome and pretty quick but pricey!

2X I have used them too and they are great.

ToddD
10-07-2011, 03:13 PM
Thanks for the input guys. I'll send them off to witchhunter. I fired up the pig to pull it into the garage and it just stinks of gas. I've been reading about injectors for some time but still don't understand how they work or, more accurately, how they could fail and allow excessive amounts of fuel to pass through.
I really don't know what to do about that ghetto wiring job or understand why someone would do that.
To fix it correctly would require purchasing a new injector which is big $$. I guess the first step is inspecting and testing by someone like witchhunter.

wesintl
10-07-2011, 03:15 PM
you could call central motive power. They do diesel injectors (top notch). I don't know why they couldn't do gas ones but you could ask them who locally would do them.

Snowrun
10-07-2011, 03:22 PM
I really don't know what to do about that ghetto wiring job or understand why someone would do that.


My guess is that the wires got a bit toasty where they pass by the EGR.

Uncle Ben
10-07-2011, 03:28 PM
Thanks for the input guys. I'll send them off to witchhunter. I fired up the pig to pull it into the garage and it just stinks of gas. I've been reading about injectors for some time but still don't understand how they work or, more accurately, how they could fail and allow excessive amounts of fuel to pass through.
I really don't know what to do about that ghetto wiring job or understand why someone would do that.
To fix it correctly would require purchasing a new injector which is big $$. I guess the first step is inspecting and testing by someone like witchhunter.

Witch hunter might have the correct plug replacement too. I would ask them. there is other sources for replacement plugs too. If you run into problems getting one ping me and I'll find you one. Injectors are actually very simple on and off valves. They are nothing more than a high quality electro magnet and a stainless steel needle and seat. The reason they need cleaning is they get corroded by carbon and other contaminants which will cause them to leak, or, most commonly, drip instead of a fine mist. They are completely controlled by the ECU which determines when they open and how long they stay open. When you run fuel system cleaner in your gas it simply breaks down the varnish and dilutes the carbon deposits which then hopefully lets the contaminates fall off. When they are cleaned they are first resistance tested (checking the coil for a fault) and then flow tested. They are then ultrasonically cleaned in a solvent solution that dissolves the varnish and cleans away the foreign material after it's loosened. After cleaning, the injectors are flow and leak tested again then matched with injectors that have similar flow characteristics. You get those flow charts with the cleaned injectors.

ToddD
10-07-2011, 03:50 PM
So excessive fuel could blast through if they are gunked up and not sealing properly after firing off. That makes sense. Hopefully a good bath helps them out. I'll call the diesel shop and see if they can take them. Thanks

Uncle Ben
10-07-2011, 04:13 PM
So excessive fuel could blast through if they are gunked up and not sealing properly after firing off. That makes sense. Hopefully a good bath helps them out. I'll call the diesel shop and see if they can take them. Thanks

Sorta....flow rates are controlled by duty cycle, fuel system pressure and orifice size. Duty cycle is the calculated occurrence an injector can flow a certain amount of fuel in an allotted time. (change the variables then you change the duty cycle) More pressure more fuel. Larger orifice more fuel-less pressure, smaller orifice less fuel-higher pressure.

I would guess you have a damaged injector that is not closing completely. Pressure is the same, orifice is the same but duty cycle is screwed up because it flows beyond it's allotted time frame.

ToddD
10-07-2011, 06:57 PM
Sorta....flow rates are controlled by duty cycle, fuel system pressure and orifice size. Duty cycle is the calculated occurrence an injector can flow a certain amount of fuel in an allotted time. (change the variables then you change the duty cycle) More pressure more fuel. Larger orifice more fuel-less pressure, smaller orifice less fuel-higher pressure.

I would guess you have a damaged injector that is not closing completely. Pressure is the same, orifice is the same but duty cycle is screwed up because it flows beyond it's allotted time frame.

Awesome explanation, thanks. :cheers:
Nobody messes with my duty cycle! :D

nuclearlemon
10-07-2011, 07:09 PM
are you sure your injectors are an issue? mine weren't, but i thought i'd get them cleaned up after 170,000 hard miles. i wish i'd never done it. i still have one of the original injectors because the shop that "cleaned them" didn't do one correctly. it was a waste of time. no positives from the experience. (big negative when it ran worse with the new injector and i had to pull it all apart to put one old one back in).

ToddD
10-07-2011, 07:43 PM
are you sure your injectors are an issue? mine weren't, but i thought i'd get them cleaned up after 170,000 hard miles. i wish i'd never done it. i still have one of the original injectors because the shop that "cleaned them" didn't do one correctly. it was a waste of time. no positives from the experience. (big negative when it ran worse with the new injector and i had to pull it all apart to put one old one back in).

I have no reason to to think the injectors are an issue other than;
No check engine light,
Very high CO and HC,
HC 4.86 Limit 2.5 = fail
CO 133.78 Limit 25.00 fail
CO2 585.80
NOx 2.6 Limit 4.5 PASS

FSM says look to fuel system,
Gross lack of maintenance,
218,xxx miles...

Uncle Ben
10-07-2011, 10:24 PM
I have no reason to to think the injectors are an issue other than;
No check engine light,
Very high CO and HC,
HC 4.86 Limit 2.5 = fail
CO 133.78 Limit 25.00 fail
CO2 585.80
NOx 2.6 Limit 4.5 PASS

FSM says look to fuel system,
Gross lack of maintenance,
218,xxx miles...

The botched injector plug is definatly a place to start! As has been mentioned check the other wires close to the EGR for heat damage.

ToddD
10-10-2011, 12:54 PM
When I remove the injectors I'm going to try to clean the gunk out of that #6 plug and hopefully be able to reuse it with a factory plug.
When I had it torn down I inspected all the wires and they *looked* ok. Didn't see obvious heat damage and removed the old heat wrap which pretty much just fell off and rewrapped it with some high quality heat tape.
My friend did the timing while I was working on his car the other day and I called him up and asked him how he did it and he said it's set right at 3 degrees. I asked him how he jumped the diagnostic port and he said "jumped what?"
So the timing was not set correctly.
What impact would this have on my high emissions issue?

ToddD
10-11-2011, 03:02 PM
Called Stevinson toyota yesterday. They said to go to Mountain Muffler in Golden to have the cats tested as they would shoot they with a temp gun for free. I was in Golden anyway, stopped in, had them test the cats then guy says " 470 going in, 500 going out, 45 bucks please." I should have asked if it was free, I only asked if they would temp test my cats, had I known they charge $45 to point a laser at my exhaust I would have just bought a temp gun, I need one anyway.
Anyway, the cats are working but not very good and they alone couldn't be the cause of the crazy high CO and HC numbers.
Now I'm curious about the O2's with no CEL. What does it take to kick on the CEL? Total sensor failure? Partial failure?
I'm going to correctly set timing today and stick my nose up my tail pipe. Sure wish this rig was OBDII...
And to clarify this little rant, I'm on the fence to what the next logical step is considering I often behave illogically, New O2's or service injectors? I think both would have a positive impact on the rig but which should be done first?
Toyota service guys said the injectors are simple and very well made and it's doubtful it's the cause and honestly, for no reason and nothing at all to support the decision, I think I should replace the O2's.

ToddD
10-17-2011, 06:13 PM
CEL!! Finally!
I went to see Slava with Irbis off road the other day and he hooked up to my 80. After a couple hours of testing different parts he found the Engine Coolant Temp Sensor was faulty and I had a lazy O2.
The lazy O2 finally kicked a code.
Ordered a ECT sensor and I'm looking into O2's now.

ToddD
10-23-2011, 10:49 PM
New ECT and O2's installed.
Back to Aircare in the morning.

corsair23
10-24-2011, 04:36 PM
How did it go? Hoping the results are better and the 80 passed :thumb:

ToddD
10-24-2011, 05:06 PM
I'm at Aircare now. I picked up an IR gun at sears on my way over and checked cat temps inbound and outbound and have a 100 degree +/- difference and I shot again before I went into the waiting booth and the temps dropped more than 100 degrees while I was in line waiting. I was in park and held the idle at 1500 to try to keep temps up.
It's running great with the new sensors but still smells a little rich to me.
I'll update again when I'm done here.

ToddD
10-24-2011, 05:19 PM
PASS!!!!!

HC 1.04
CO 12.19
NOx 3.77

It's time for a beer!!!

corsair23
10-24-2011, 05:20 PM
:thumb:

:beer:, :beer:, and more :beer:

Snowrun
10-24-2011, 06:13 PM
PASS!!!!!

HC 1.04
CO 12.19
NOx 3.77

It's time for a beer!!!
Awesome!!!