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View Full Version : Fuel smell, 3.4L 5VV-FE, Blower


Red_Chili
02-27-2012, 07:43 PM
For those who don't know, the Chili sports a 5VZ-FE (1996) with a 3rd gen supercharger. The evap system is 5VZ, but with a 22RE canister. When the blower was installed initially, there were no issues. Lately however, when full boost is hit (throttle floored), there is an almost instant smell of fuel in the cab. The more boost, the more fuel smell. Makes me a bit nervous. It has become very predictable, like every single time.

No codes are thrown. For a bit (pre-blower) I would occasionally throw an evap code (P0440) and had a fuel smell, but I traced that to a bad VSV plus a fuel line union that weeped a bit. Fixed all that. This ain't that.

Not sure really where to start. Any ideas? As you might guess, I kinda suspect the evap system but I've not noticed anything weird there except the smell - and no codes.

Why would boost cause a fuel smell, while running no boost (lighter throttle) = no smell?

One other thing I have noticed... probably unrelated. Idle sometimes wants to hang at 1200 RPM or so. Jump on the throttle and it drops back down to 750. Idles smoothly. I thought it was related to the welder hand throttle (and in part it was, fixed that with a little wire bending) but it still does it and the throttle plate is resting on the stop. Might be a red herring, might be related, dunno.

[edit] The one way check valve in the hose (forget which hose, but the instructions covered it) was new on install. Vacuum lines are fresh. If I think of anything else I will add that info.

waggoner5
02-27-2012, 08:15 PM
Do you have the 7th injector system? It only activates under boost and could be a leaky injector system.

AxleIke
02-27-2012, 09:23 PM
First thing I'd check would be the fuel rails. My brother had a similar issue and it was a bad o ring on an injector.

Technically you are boosting right off idle. I assume it only does it under hard accelleration, ie when the whine gets loud.

I don't think the SC is the culprit, unless, as Gary says, you are running a 7th injector kit. My recollection was that you aren't, but I could be wrong.

Does this happen under all conditions, ie, windows down/up, soft top open closed, recirc on/off?

I ask only because you can pull fumes in from under the truck as well, but I'm guessing you've had everything closed up.

PabloCruise
02-28-2012, 09:11 AM
Engine swaps can be tricky for the evap.
How is your system currently setup to purge? Under what conditions?
Is the '96 5VZ-FE OBDII? I imagine there is a purge solenoid that would open when the system senses manifold vacuum, while fulfilling some other conditions (I think must be off idle), etc.
Is the 22RE charcoal can compatible with the 5VZ purge set-up? I noticed a difference in the charcoal cannister when trying to swap OBDII into OBDI body.
Under boost, there is obviously no vacuum, but perhaps your charcoal canister is ready to be purged and is stinking from the drain tube at the bottom.
I imagine this is worse when everything is warm.
Until you can define how/when your current engine set-up is supposed to evacuate the charcoal cannister I think you will be chasing your tail.

Beater
02-28-2012, 09:16 AM
your idle hang suggests a lean out condition (but you knew that) so I with the others on a leak spot on the fuel delivery. I am not familiar enough with these systems, but is the pressure regulation steady state or on demand on this platform? On demand plus leak would = smell, a lean out on the rail with a bubble/air. etc etc.

Uncle Ben
02-28-2012, 09:30 AM
FJ I think is touching the issue. On your older OBD setup where is the vacuum source? If it's not coming from the throttle body then you have no vacuum with boost. Also, it's very possible that the problem has been there all along but now your charcoal canister is fuel saturated.

Red_Chili
02-29-2012, 09:05 AM
Hmmm... interesting. Note that this did not start until well after install of the blower, so something degraded at least 4 months after.
OBDII- check
Fuel Pressure Regulation - stock 1996 5VZ-FE
7th Injector - nope, 1996 ECM did not support (and I don't have Gadget's piggyback kit). So all fueling is stock Toyota 1996 5VZ.

How is your system currently setup to purge? Under what conditions?
Is the '96 5VZ-FE OBDII? I imagine there is a purge solenoid that would open when the system senses manifold vacuum, while fulfilling some other conditions (I think must be off idle), etc.
Stock 1996 purge except for the physical canister. That arrangement is around 5 years old and has been issue-free for that time until recently (if that is the issue).

Is the 22RE charcoal can compatible with the 5VZ purge set-up? I noticed a difference in the charcoal cannister when trying to swap OBDII into OBDI body. Yeah kinda. Mike Caskey made it work due to space constraints. Using stock 5VZ-FE VSVs and controls.

Under boost, there is obviously no vacuum, but perhaps your charcoal canister is ready to be purged and is stinking from the drain tube at the bottom. I imagine this is worse when everything is warm.
Possibly. Not really noticed whether warm makes a difference (I never romp on a cold motor). Yes, this happens only under harder throttle, and watching the boost gauge only when 3-6lbs boost. Under vacuum conditions it does not happen. Thrown on 6lbs of boost, and you can smell it almost instantly which kinda DOES sound like fuel rail. But a leaky injector O-ring would smell all the time, wouldn't it? Wouldn't the pressure be more or less constant, even LOWER under full demand?

Sounds like I need to put some leak detector on the canister drain and go romp on it mebbe. Or put a catch bottle on it and see how many gallons I am throwing on the pavement in a given trip. :lmao:

Oh, open vehicle, closed, doesn't matter, you smell it. Soft top Runner is kinda breezy... :lmao:

Red_Chili
02-29-2012, 09:27 AM
DOH! Just did some research... high vacuum equals lower fuel pressure, low vacuum equals higher fuel pressure, boost equals the highest. Now it is REALLY sounding like fuel rail. And something that needs immediate attention if I want to avoid roasted chili.

PabloCruise
02-29-2012, 11:08 AM
Don't roast the chili!

Keep us posted...

TIMZTOY
02-29-2012, 12:01 PM
agreed could be a leaky injector system.

hmmmm roasted chilies :-)

have you had the ECM re-flashed ? If I'm not mistaken, that is part of the supercharger install and done at the dealer

Uncle Ben
02-29-2012, 12:26 PM
DOH! Just did some research... high vacuum equals lower fuel pressure, low vacuum equals higher fuel pressure, boost equals the highest. Now it is REALLY sounding like fuel rail. And something that needs immediate attention if I want to avoid roasted chili.

Sorta. You're running stock stuff so your stock fuel pressure reg bypasses fuel back to the tank when you have vacuum this dropping the line pressure in the rails. Under throttle open ( low or no vacuum) your regulator limits the fuel returning to the tank.(higher line pressure) Unless you have a rising rate fuel reg (you don't) the regulator is quite simple (dumb). Rising rate regs are linear and adjustable so you can tune them and they will gradually increase the pressure as vacuum drops and boost begins. Also, it sounds like you are using the stock 22re fuel pump so your pressure can only build if you have a surplus of fuel available. So sorta. Unfortunately, the SC hides the left side rail. I would suggest getting the o-rings, seals and plenum gasket and spend a couple hours to be sure. It would suck if your suspicions are true and while roasted chilies are good I think your variety is better just hot and not roasted!

Red_Chili
02-29-2012, 02:15 PM
agreed

hmmmm roasted chilies :-)

have you had the ECM re-flashed ? If I'm not mistaken, that is part of the supercharger install and done at the dealer
Unaware of any reflash. Wasn't in the instructions at all (and remember this is the first gen of 5VZ ECMs so it is rather dumb).

Red_Chili
02-29-2012, 02:28 PM
Sorta. You're running stock stuff ...
Roger dodger on the stock 22RE fuel pump. I spoke to Scotty at Addicted after seeing a post by him on this very issue on Yotatech I think. He never posted a resolution so I called him. He mentioned lots of guys run the 22RE pump with no issues. AFR is in the low 12s on full throttle/boost so it ain't starvin'.

Turns out lots of guys have a fuel smell if the vacuum gauge hose develops a leak or is not tight at the gauge or tee. Why that would make a fuel smell is a real headscratcher... :confused: I would think fuel would stay where it should and something else might be going on... but oh well. More than one has fixed it that way, and that was Gadget's post on the topic, and I know far less than he.

Scotty's was solved by him doing a whole lot of stuff so he wasn't sure which was exactly the source. The more we talked, the more I began to think about Mike's fuel line union that was giving me grief prior to the S/C. I managed to get it tight enough to no longer seep, but I think the union might not be all that good. If the S/C actually effectively increases the fuel pressure on boost, I can see it behaving just like I am experiencing. I think I just need to spend some quality time underneath with some leak detector spray, then go drive around. I might tighten or bypass the vaccuum/boost gauge too just for grins and giggles.

I have had at least one situation where, after climbing the canyon on boost and parking in the garage, the garage smelled like fuel that evening. Again, makes me wonder about that union. Easy enough to check.

He thought the idle might be due to a leaky check valve in the IAC vacuum line (the one you have to add with the S/C). $6 part so that is worth pursuing.

SteveH
02-29-2012, 02:29 PM
I learned the hard way (leaks) to only use genuine Toyota injector o-rings between the injectors the fuel rail. The cheapies from Advanced Auto lasted about 1 week before leaking. I got the fuel smell from seepage at each injector.

Uncle Ben
02-29-2012, 02:40 PM
Chili, The v hose leak makes sense.....never thought about that. It's a direct plenum port so it has vacuum at no boost and pressure at boost. However, fuel is direct injected and not even close to that port????? Nothing smells as strong as raw fuel and raw fuel on the intake manifold is a real serious issue. If you suspect an injector leak I would deal with it FIRST and rule it out! Easy enough job to do....just have new part on hand first.

Red_Chili
02-29-2012, 02:54 PM
Yeah... OK, I am persuaded. I keep having day nightmares of tragedy... seen too many toasted vehicles on the side of the road and leaky injectors are the likely culprit. Less than $70 at Stevinson with the RS discount so placing the order now...

Even before testing out the theory, it just makes sense to replace rubber seals on fuel pressure systems that are 16+ years old... even if it turns out to be something else.

Thanks all, will report back.

Uncle Ben
02-29-2012, 03:26 PM
Yeah... OK, I am persuaded. I keep having day nightmares of tragedy... seen too many toasted vehicles on the side of the road and leaky injectors are the likely culprit. Less than $70 at Stevinson with the RS discount so placing the order now...

Even before testing out the theory, it just makes sense to replace rubber seals on fuel pressure systems that are 16+ years old... even if it turns out to be something else.

Thanks all, will report back.

I have a set of stock 3.4 injectors if you want to send them off to get cleaned. Yours for the asking.

Red_Chili
03-01-2012, 12:04 PM
WOW... you bet, bud. Great idea. Maybe pick them up at the meeting?

Red_Chili
03-12-2012, 12:12 PM
Well, missed the connection with UB... so I just pulled my injectors. Things seemed dry in the valley... if you take my meaning. No fuel staining.

I did notice, however, that the *&@%#$@! vacuum line I used from the FPR to the tee for the vacuum/boost gauge to the supercharger was hard and slipped off easily. This fits with the web rumor that any leaks in this line will result in a fuel smell. I have no idea how that all works to produce a fuel smell... but... there you have it.

While I was taking things apart, I crossed the Rubicon and replaced the section of fuel line that Off Road Solutions used from the 3.0L fuel filter to the 5VZ engine-end fuel hose. They used a section of line from the donor vehicle, but used adapters to adapt adapters to adapters to get it to work.

One of those flare unions has been problematic in the past so I just grabbed some NAPA hard brake line in 5/16, cut off an end, replaced the connectors, and tried to make a double flare. Took about 4 times but finally made one I trust. Besides, I should carry a double flare tool on the trail. Just too many applications for it in an emergency.

Shoulda been done that way the first time!

I figure part of my difficulty in making the double flare was the tool I got from NAPA... a cheapie. Any advice or guidance here?

Red_Chili
03-12-2012, 12:21 PM
Oh, yeah, and for the heck of it I sent the injectors off to WitchHunter.

Uncle Ben
03-12-2012, 01:00 PM
Sorry sir....missed the post or I would have sent them with Treeroot....my bad.


Well, missed the connection with UB... so I just pulled my injectors. Things seemed dry in the valley... if you take my meaning. No fuel staining.

I did notice, however, that the *&@%#$@! vacuum line I used from the FPR to the tee for the vacuum/boost gauge to the supercharger was hard and slipped off easily. This fits with the web rumor that any leaks in this line will result in a fuel smell. I have no idea how that all works to produce a fuel smell... but... there you have it.

While I was taking things apart, I crossed the Rubicon and replaced the section of fuel line that Off Road Solutions used from the 3.0L fuel filter to the 5VZ engine-end fuel hose. They used a section of line from the donor vehicle, but used adapters to adapt adapters to adapters to get it to work.

One of those flare unions has been problematic in the past so I just grabbed some NAPA hard brake line in 5/16, cut off an end, replaced the connectors, and tried to make a double flare. Took about 4 times but finally made one I trust. Besides, I should carry a double flare tool on the trail. Just too many applications for it in an emergency.

Shoulda been done that way the first time!

I figure part of my difficulty in making the double flare was the tool I got from NAPA... a cheapie. Any advice or guidance here?

Red_Chili
03-12-2012, 01:29 PM
Oh no worries, the intent is appreciated!

One question... for reassembly, it just doesn't seem right to me to put the injectors in dry. Seems like a good way to damage an o-ring, etc. One person I talked to suggested a VERY THIN film of petroleum jelly, nothing more. What say you?

Uncle Ben
03-12-2012, 04:28 PM
Oh no worries, the intent is appreciated!

One question... for reassembly, it just doesn't seem right to me to put the injectors in dry. Seems like a good way to damage an o-ring, etc. One person I talked to suggested a VERY THIN film of petroleum jelly, nothing more. What say you?

Your Friday night date enhancer will work fine on these seals. Next time you're at the auto parts store pick up some Sil Glyde. Some o-rings and seals do not like petroleum based lubricants (AC/ brakes, etc....) Great stuff to have in your sealant misc goo drawer!
You are correct in your caution. While you would probably be fine dry it just takes a nick or the o-ring to roll and your back to where you started from!

DaveInDenver
03-12-2012, 05:01 PM
Like UB says, bad idea to use Vaseline as it deteriorates typical rubber o-rings. Not all o-rings are made the same, so it does depend on composition but to be safe you do want to use silicone grease. I had some left over grease from my A/C installation that I used, but Super Grease would work, Loctite makes rubber o-ring lube, most all dielectric greases are silicone. It's very common, plumbers use it all the time.

And, yeah, think about it, things safe for that kinda rubber will be safe for fuel injector kinda rubber.

Red_Chili
03-13-2012, 12:14 PM
Hmmm, I happen to have some dielectric grease... I think left over from the points-and-condenser days! :lmao:

K-Y?? SERIOUSLY??!? :eek::confused::rolleyes::p::lmao:

PabloCruise
03-13-2012, 03:45 PM
Too funny...

corsair23
03-13-2012, 04:00 PM
K-Y?? SERIOUSLY??!? :eek::confused::rolleyes::p::lmao:

I have a tube of generic stuff sitting in the tool drawer :D

Works great on hoses etc...Was perfect when fighting the PHH install on the 80's

Beater
03-14-2012, 09:14 AM
life is better with proper lubrication... oh - wrong forum.


seriously - your plight must be contagious. The porsche just developed a fuel smell in the cab. turns out they run the evap line through the body behind the rear "seat"...

PabloCruise
03-14-2012, 04:25 PM
life is better with proper lubrication... oh - wrong forum.


seriously - your plight must be contagious. The porsche just developed a fuel smell in the cab. turns out they run the evap line through the body behind the rear "seat"...

Somewhere out there is a German engineer who thought that made perfect sense...

Red_Chili
03-19-2012, 09:08 PM
Well, you don't know till you know... got the report from WitchHunter. Turns out BG 44K does a nice job. The injectors weren't bad at all, especially for around 110K miles. Now they are better.

27650

Now put it all together and see what happens...

Red_Chili
03-22-2012, 10:12 AM
WooHoo, got it together...

Hmmm, really lean at idle. OK how hard could it be. Nope, everything hooked up. Hmmm. When in doubt... OK the blower install manual says if you get a lean code check the vacuum lines and the direction of the TB gasket. Hey can't be it, I was keerful...

:doh:

OK runs fine now... :homer:

No more gas smell.

Uncle Ben
03-22-2012, 10:41 AM
WooHoo, got it together...

Hmmm, really lean at idle. OK how hard could it be. Nope, everything hooked up. Hmmm. When in doubt... OK the blower install manual says if you get a lean code check the vacuum lines and the direction of the TB gasket. Hey can't be it, I was keerful...

:doh:

OK runs fine now... :homer:

No more gas smell.


Yay! Silly question but I assume you had the battery unhooked while working on it which as a bonus would let the ECU relearn after you reconnected the battery and started it with refreshed injectors. (how is that for a run on sentence?) :)

Red_Chili
03-22-2012, 12:31 PM
I didn't... actually I probably sorta wasted money on WitchHunter as it turns out. The injectors were in really good shape. Of course now they are 'freshened' for another 100K...

Sure feels good to have a single section of hard fuel line where there were multiple sections of soft line and adapters (still routed uncomfortably close to the header even after I tried to move it... the hard line now has LOTS of clearance). Mike shouldn't'a orter done dat. The rest of his work was first rate.

Red_Chili
03-25-2012, 06:06 PM
:gaah:

:whiteflag:

It's back. OK, the injectors are clean and rebuilt, new o-rings, new vacuum line (and the idle is behaving quite nicely)...

But I floored it passing a Nissan Titan around a curve and danged if the fuel smell wasn't back!
:rant::rant::rant:

I came home and capped off the tee for the boost gauge... no difference. Soon as I shut off the motor, light fuel smell in the cab, I popped the hood, sniffed around, climbed underneath, smelled the charcoal canister drain... and smelled NO fuel. None whatsoever by the fuel rails. None in the engine bay.

AAARGH.

Red_Chili
03-25-2012, 06:15 PM
I sent Gadget the following:
Hi Gadget-
Hope you can help. I have a 1987 4Runner with a 1996 5VZ-FE and last generation TRD supercharger. It has worked fine the last year (I put it in about a year ago) but last fall started developing a fuel smell in the cab when boost was applied. No fuel smell is apparent in non-boosted driving.

I pulled the fuel rails and injectors, sent them off to WitchHunter, and reinstalled with their new O-rings and seals. I also noticed the vacuum line from the FPR to blower was a bit dry, and it has a tee for the boost gauge (AutoMeter unit). I replaced the vacuum line on reassembly and used safety wire as a kind of clamp on the FPR.

Upon reassembly, the idle is a bit more steady but sure enough the fuel smell is back when boost is applied. Upon shutting down the motor and smelling in the engine bay, no fuel smell is apparent. None is apparent when sniffing the charcoal canister drain either (by the way, the engine uses the 5VZ VSVs but a 22RE charcoal canister due to space. This worked fine all last summer after the blower install, and worked fine for four years previously). I also tried capping off the boost gauge at the tee, but that made no difference either.

I am out of ideas! Do you have any? Hope you can help,
-Bill Morgan

Red_Chili
03-28-2012, 10:49 AM
Still no answer from Gadget. I thought maybe the check valve installed in the IAC line might be the culprit. New check valve, put it in both ways... no change.

Idles nice...

Anybunny gots idears?

Hulk
03-30-2012, 01:10 AM
Fuel cap? Just throwing this out there. Could your problem be at the other end of the system?

Red_Chili
03-30-2012, 08:38 AM
Wondering about that... but when I filled up the other day, I definitely had a vacuum or pressure (how do you tell?) release. So the cap seals. Throws a code pretty quickly if I ... uh... should forget to put it on there... or ... maybe run over the cap and destroy it on a trip... not that that ever happened...

I put the old TRD IAC check valve in series with the evap connection to the blower, thinking that maybe boost was pressurizing the evap system. The check valve seemed to be in working condition. Got all giddy with anticipation but... the fuel smell on boost was still there.

It is a little less than before though, Lise even noticed. So I probably have or had a few things going on.

I may take a look at the entire return line to see if something is less than tight. But that would work opposite of what I am experiencing I think. It returns LESS fuel on boost/ pressure is up. Dunno.

AddictedOffroad
03-30-2012, 09:52 AM
There are a couple vacuum lines that run on the back side of the SC. Maybe you have a crack in one or a hole worn in one.

The other thing I did when I solved my issue was I actually pulled the SC off and put on a new gasket on the intake side. This was when I pulled it to drain/refill the nose cone. I never had the smell again after that. So, if you've exhausted every other option, I think that is all that is left.

Red_Chili
03-30-2012, 10:54 AM
You mean the intake manifold gasket, or the TB gasket? Assuming intake. I had used a new intake gasket when I installed it, but hey, anything is worth it. Might just retorque the bolts too.

I used new vacuum line for the FPR and I do think that was an issue, and the fuel smell is less now (along with doing the WitchHunter thing, and their new O rings, etc.).

I'll take another gander, but I think the only vacuum line in the back is the FPR line. Thanks for the ideas all!!

Red_Chili
04-03-2012, 05:07 PM
Hmmm, I may be on to something. Not only did I put a one way valve inline with the evap, but I threw a hose clamp on it where it attaches to the blower. Noting the clamps on the vacuum brake booster, I sez to myself, Self, there may be something to this, self. Hmmm, my self sez, might as well, yer dumb but you may be on to something.

My high tech vapor analyzer, AKA Lise, determined a reduction in fuel vapor in cab.

This kinda goes along with the whole "vacuum leak at the boost gauge" line of thinking... so mebbe I's a gonna install new fuel/oil resistant line for the IAC. WITH clamps. The check valve on it definitely smelled like vapor, so.... it couldn't hurt.

Learning a LOT. Seems like the TRD kit and instructions addressed MOST of everything... minus a few key features.