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nakman
03-19-2012, 10:32 AM
I am starting over on wiring for my headlight. Have a new dual sport kit with hi/lo switch, but those are just for completing the loop, there's no power to it, I need a power feed. I want to abandon the stock wiring and start over for the headlight, not only for ease of future diagnosis, but also so I can turn the headlight on without turning the bike on.

I plan to run straight from the battery- would you suggest a relay setup, similar to fog lights on a truck? Or is this current draw so low that it won't matter much if the juice has to flow through the switch..

subzali
03-19-2012, 10:56 AM
Do you have the service manual for the bike? There's a wiring diagram in it that might give you some ideas...

...it doesn't look to me like the factory wiring has a relay...

nakman
03-19-2012, 10:58 AM
Do you have the service manual for the bike? There's a wiring diagram in it that might give you some ideas...

Yep, but everything in the stock wiring only comes on after the bike is running.

DaveInDenver
03-19-2012, 11:01 AM
The current I'd expect is fairly decent being that it's a 6V system, right? Even if it's a fairly low power light, say 35W, that's around 6A. Well, that assumes it's an incandescent bulb, if it's LED or something then it would be quite a bit lower.

I like to always use relays, although it's not like the runs are long on a motorcycle. But it does simplify the high current side to just two wires and makes the control side wiring lighter, which I would assume on handlebars might be important since trying to connect 14AWG would be a PITA compared to 22AWG.

nakman
03-19-2012, 11:42 AM
It is a H4 halogen bulb with high and low beam – 12V 35W/35W. I am not sure what 35/35 means, does that imply 70 watts when I switch to Hi Beam?

So relay gets 12v from the battery (30), a feed in from the tail light running light or horn feed (85), a ground (86) and then a feed out to the white wire running into my hi/lo switch (87), then the black and blue wires coming out of the hi/lo switch running to the Hi and Lo terminals on the headlight. This still funnels the whole thing through the hi/lo switch though, but I'm not sure how to avoid that without two more relays- one hi and one lo, which just seems excessive. The wiring in the switch is probably in the 18-20ga. thickness, which is likely triple compared to what's in the stock harness.

Here's a simple diagram of a different setup, but just to refresh you on what terminals do what.

http://www.classictruckshop.com/clubs/earlyburbs/projects/bosch/foglite.jpg

Red_Chili
03-19-2012, 11:47 AM
35W in low, 35W in high. Different beam is due to focus. If you want REALLY bright (and sap your battery and lighting coil, I rather suspect you do not have a 200W aftermarket wind) you can put them both on at once. Probably not.

Be sure you don't have a 12VAC lighting coil, and a 12VDC batt charging coil. I don't know Katooms but it's been done. Dem Germans have been known to go their own way.

You can get aftermarket handlebar lighting switches that look factory. I run one.

Red_Chili
03-19-2012, 11:57 AM
Here's an example from a google search. Not quite right but close.
http://www.motopartsmax.com/index.php/main_page/product_info/products_id/15698

Better:
http://www.procycle.us/images/dualsport/comboswitch_mini.jpg

nakman
03-19-2012, 11:57 AM
Ok cool thanks Bill, so if its 35w either way then I'm definitely not worried about running that through the handlebar switch. I'm all DC, but that's not universal even with KTM's, in fact I believe Bruce's bike goes both ways. :)

And reason #23 for running the headlight straight to the battery is, I am fairly sure that's a DC setup that even I could later diagnose. :o

I do have a 100w Stator http://www.trailtech.net/SR-8310.html

edit: Yes, my switch looks just like that "better" one.. but I'm not sure I've got the LED on top, will look tonight to see.

DaveInDenver
03-19-2012, 12:02 PM
This still funnels the whole thing through the hi/lo switch though, but I'm not sure how to avoid that without two more relays- one hi and one lo, which just seems excessive.
That's what the 87A terminal is for on the relay, 87 is NO, 87A is NC. So it takes just two relays. The first is the power on/off and the second toggles between low and high. Bosch figured that out in like 1962 when they designed it.

Red_Chili
03-19-2012, 12:03 PM
There's a good reason NOT to run it off your battery. You lose 35W draw while you are trying to estart a dead motor.

As soon as you trace out that hot lead to your lighting coil, you will have gained any troubleshooting insight needed in the future. That's the way to go.

nakman
03-19-2012, 12:12 PM
Dave what does NO and NC mean.. not open and not closed? :confused:


Bill I have a switch for that- the on/off switch next to the starter button will kill all lighting, and makes all lighting completely optional. Another reason for going this route.

DaveInDenver
03-19-2012, 12:20 PM
Normally Open, Normally Closed.

When the relay coil is not energized, terminal 87A is connected to 30. When you power the relay coil, terminal 87 connects to 30 and 87A opens. This is why it's known as a SPDT, Single Pole, Double Throw. 'Normally' is a term to describe the relay in it's unpowered configuration, think of it as the resting state.

As an on/off (relay #1), you use hot to 30 and switched load to 87.

Connect 87 on relay #1 to 30 on relay #2.

As a high/low (relay #2), you put low beam on 87A and high beam on 87.

Or in your described system, you would just use terminal 30 to the kill-switched lighting and your switch would toggle between high-low rather than on-off.

Substitute AUX Light for low and FLUSHMOUNT for high beam.

Red_Chili
03-19-2012, 12:38 PM
Nak, you really don't want to run it off your batt. AMHIK.

nakman
03-19-2012, 04:18 PM
Nak, you really don't want to run it off your batt. AMHIK.

What downside am I not considering? I want to have full control- lights on when the bike isn't, lights off when the bike is, or both on/both off. If I leave my lights on and my battery dies I deserved that. what else is there?




Dave back on the relay thing... I haven't been around since 1962 so am a little slow perhaps. Is the benefit of the second relay so I don't need to run 35w through the switch?

It's an either/or between 87 and 87a, correct? Power to 85 flips it between those.. so my handlebar switch high beam wire is going to trip #85, and I just wouldn't hook up the low beam, is that what you're saying? Resulting in default low beam, switched hi beam. But both are off with relay #1 being switched off. Ok I think I get it now..

DaveInDenver
03-19-2012, 04:29 PM
Dave back on the relay thing... I haven't been around since 1962 so am a little slow perhaps. Is the benefit of the second relay so I don't need to run 35w through the switch?

It's an either/or between 87 and 87a, correct? Power to 85 flips it between those.. so my handlebar switch high beam wire is going to trip #85, and I just wouldn't hook up the low beam, is that what you're saying? Resulting in default low beam, switched hi beam. But both are off with relay #1 being switched off. Ok I think I get it now..
Yes. You have a kill switch and the second relay (e.g. #1 in the description) is there so that you do not switch high current directly.

You have it right, what's on terminal 30 goes to 87 or 87A depending on the state of the coil. So you have a high beam switch that when off gives you low beam and when on selects high beam. It toggles between the two.

Remember relays are electroMECHANICAL devices, so they do things mechanically that are reactions to electrical changes. Energize the coil and you overcome a spring, which reacts oppositely when you de-energize the coil.

I can add that if you wanted, it would not be difficult to wire this so that you can use a momentary switch (e.g. push to switch to high, push again to switch back to low) that also resets to low beam when the power is removed.

nakman
03-19-2012, 04:53 PM
Right, my on/off relay #1 will get a trigger from my on/off switch on the handlebars. Won't be from the kill switch though, more than likely the horn- just something that's off when the switch is off, and +12v when the switch is on.

Only downside to this is the "low" position on the headlight control really won't do anything- but then again I'd never have to flip it to off either for that matter. It'll be in low all the time, in both off and low, but then switch to hi when I switch to hi. I guess I could make low switch on some lower power thing that I wouldn't mind running through the switch, and being disabled with hi beams..

rover67
03-19-2012, 06:11 PM
you could wire it so that the power from the stator energizes the relay. that way it would only light the lights if you had a charge. keep the lights wired to the battery.

nice thing about our bikes is we have kick starts and they aren't 600cc's so if the battery dies it's not THAT big of a deal. also a 100w stator is gonna charge the battery pretty quick.

I liked having the lights wired so they'd run even if the motor was off though, helps with a night time situation where you need to dismount, shut the motor off to talk and find your way type of thing. nice when your flash light is buried in the pack and yo ustill need light.

DaveInDenver
03-19-2012, 07:05 PM
Just wondering out loud, would there ever be the situation you'd want the opposite (lights off at night)? Personally I'd like to have control over them, I'm not a big fan of daytime running lights in cars for example. Pulling into a commercial campground at night I like being able to go with just running lights if I can to not disturb other campers.

nakman
03-19-2012, 07:39 PM
It's like a center diff in an awd vehicle- you want every option available to you, not just low range.

What if you shut your bike off at dusk/almost dark to let some hikers walk by... the lights might be nice.

What if you wanted to idle outside work at night while you ran back in to get your phone... No lights might be nice.

And sure, high speed getaways under cover of darkness is always a plus!

what if you dropped your headlamp over by your tent- yeah a quick light from the bike is fast& easy, but no need to wake the camp

60wag
03-19-2012, 09:52 PM
My lighting is AC. The voltage regulator makes DC to charge the battery to run the starter. The DC circuit has the odometer computer, the horn and the cooling fan as well. I can't run my lights with the motor off, but I also can't forget to turn something off and kill the battery. I do have a switch on the headlight so I can turn it off so the charging system can be dedicated to topping the battery or running the cooling fan.

I didn't bother with a headlight relay. I recently went from a 34watt H4 bulb to a 55watt H4 bulb. It should draw about 4.5 amps if the AC is around 12V. I think the switches are up to it. I actually have two switches: an on/off and a high/low. The 55watt is noticeably brighter than the 35w was. My reflector and lens is def' not a high performance setup but works for now.

Whatever you end up doing, make sure the connections are solid. They will get wet, dusty and be subjected to a lot of vibration. Low cost relays may cut the reliability of the system. Keep it simple so it is sure to function when you need it.

Red_Chili
03-20-2012, 03:16 PM
Ooo, looking for TrailTech on YouTube and stumbled across this. This works...

OodSJ9kNvFc

nakman
03-21-2012, 11:46 AM
I didn't bother with a headlight relay. I recently went from a 34watt H4 bulb to a 55watt H4 bulb. It should draw about 4.5 amps if the AC is around 12V. I think the switches are up to it. I actually have two switches: an on/off and a high/low. The 55watt is noticeably brighter than the 35w was. My reflector and lens is def' not a high performance setup but works for now.

Whatever you end up doing, make sure the connections are solid. They will get wet, dusty and be subjected to a lot of vibration. Low cost relays may cut the reliability of the system. Keep it simple so it is sure to function when you need it.

So Bruce, IOW you're saying skip the second relay, and just wire the juice through the switch and don't worry about it for a 35w bulb? :beer:

60wag
03-21-2012, 01:09 PM
Yes, the relays are overkill. Using a relay to shut off the lights when the bike isn't running makes sense.

60wag
03-21-2012, 01:17 PM
I think this is the one in the Youtube video:
http://www.bajadesigns.com/Products/MOTORCYCLE_PRODUCTS/HIGH_PERFORMANCE__and__RACE_LIGHTING/DUAL_8_INCH_RACELIGHTS

DaveInDenver
03-21-2012, 01:26 PM
Yes, the relays are overkill. Using a relay to shut off the lights when the bike isn't running makes sense.
Overkill never fails

60wag
03-21-2012, 01:37 PM
The bosch headlight relay on my SAAB failed.

DaveInDenver
03-21-2012, 02:51 PM
The bosch headlight relay on my SAAB failed.
Did your car melt down when it did? I'll bet it was the coil that failed and not the load contacts. It's a fail safe.

60wag
03-21-2012, 03:33 PM
No, actually the contacts failed. One side works, the other doesn't. It is however easier to replace than the switch.

On the motorcycle, the load is low and the switch can handle it. Why complicate it by adding the additional complexity of the relay?

DaveInDenver
03-21-2012, 04:00 PM
IIRC you mentioned your lights run on AC, Nak's run on DC. The ratings are not the same. A 24V/5A AC contact might be 24V/1A with DC. Look, it's no skin off my nose, just offering my $0.02. I am not wrong and neither are you, we just have different experiences forming our opinions.

nakman
03-22-2012, 01:43 AM
Alright I'm stumped. I have poked around that harness all over the place and can't find a switched 12v anywhere. All the ones that are 12v after the handlebar switch is on, are 12v even before the switch is on.. this isn't making sense to me, maybe it's too late... :confused:

I did get my new headlight wired up, the horn relocated to make room for it, the relay's working... if I stick the relay wire to the battery I hear it click, then everything works just as it should. But I can't find a switched power feed anywhere on this new harness, meaning I can't get it to come on with the new switch. ugh.. :offtobed:

rover67
03-22-2012, 10:03 AM
I think mine had a switched 12v, i'll check tonight. our wiring should be similar..

nakman
03-22-2012, 02:50 PM
I think mine had a switched 12v, i'll check tonight. our wiring should be similar..

I'd be curious if you have one.. I am going to try one more time to poke into something on the tail light circuit, but if I can't get it will punt and just find something that's switched on when the motor's running, just to get on with life. :(


I'm still trying to figure out in my head how this wiring works. It's like everything is on all the time, with one opening in the circuit and that's at the switch- so flipping the switch "on" just closes that? I can measure 12v going to the tail light, 12v at the horn itself, 12v in the blinker wire... all with the switch set to "off." what do I know, maybe that's a better way to wire things. :confused:

Red_Chili
03-22-2012, 05:53 PM
??
Does KTM use sinking switching? (ground on close)

nakman
03-22-2012, 07:56 PM
Could be. I found even more wires in the stock harness that are +12v with the bike off. Did find one that would flip on when the bike is running, it was running to the headlight. I then measured there what I had seen in the old light, which is about 6v output while the bike is idling, and even less when running. So I tried to run that as my relay feed hoping that's enough juice to trip it, but alas no, it only works about part of the time at idle, then not all all while riding, then just as you turn the bike off the lights come on.

My new theory is something's not happy with that new stator & regulator upgrade... but dang the bike sure runs well, and the battery seems to be getting charged, and there's no return on electrical parts at Sun, so IOW point of no return here. I think my next step is unhook the little running light bulb altogether, then I can bypass the relay and just use the switch for the lights, hot from the battery, and not have that little light run me down. At least then I can ride the bike and have lights, still not ideal though obviously but will get me by until someone smarter than me wants to do additional electrical probing.

edit: I'm also annoyed at how I had to extend my bump stop on the left, to keep from smashing the horn. Don't notice while riding, but pushing it around the garage, etc. I do.. so that horn is going somewhere else too. ugh.

farnhamstj
03-22-2012, 11:07 PM
You will notice the bump stop as soon as you try to ride single track. relocate the horn.
FWIW. My lights only work when bike is running.

rover67
03-22-2012, 11:13 PM
welp, looks like I was mistaken...

my lights works either with the motor on or off

nakman
03-23-2012, 12:41 AM
I'm done. I bypassed the relay and took the bulb out of the running light, everything works now. It isn't perfect but I'm over it, need to work on other things... the only other thing that bugs me is how ugly all those wires are crammed in there behind the headlight, would like to stare at a couple other of you's wiring to see how you've got all that bundled. Good project for Utah... and we can poke further into the wiring in Utah too for that matter. :beer:

Red_Chili
03-23-2012, 08:51 AM
Stator upgrade, eh? A few stator upgrades trade low RPM voltage for higher RPM current output. Some are wound differently for both current and voltage at lower output. You might be seeing something like that.

farnhamstj
03-23-2012, 10:09 AM
Tim, is yours street legal yet? Or is the headlight part of the making it legal process?

nakman
03-23-2012, 10:39 AM
Yes street legal, I have current plates & a title in my name.

I bought a bike with a fairly poor headlight and no tail light or brake light that didn't run well.

That turned into a bike that runs great (carb cleaning, jet kit, new stator & regulator) with resulting no headlight.

I also now have as new turn signals and horn and a working tail light and brake light. I have essentially installed a full dual sport kit, compared to what I purchased which was just a headlight. Only piece left there is a switch on the front brake caliper, which is on the bench next to some new DOT4 fluid- the wire is already running down the fork.

So as of last night I have a bike that runs great, full tail/brake lights, turn signals, electric horn, and a great running new headlight- the latter wired direct to the battery. So I've got one switch next to my right thumb that turns on the tail lights/horn/turn signals, and a light switch for my left thumb that runs independently of the first that will flip on lo or hi beam on the headlight. Either one can run w/o the bike running, and both need to be turned off manually lest I will find myself without e-start capability. I have come up empty on my attempt to find any switched 12v wire into which to incorporate a relay.

I also have a somewhat irritated :Princess: who is tired of the 8:00-midnight shifts in the garage every night this week... however she's got a movie night tonight with her friends, so I'm gonna get that front switch hooked up and both brakes bled with new fluid. :)

farnhamstj
03-25-2012, 08:50 AM
How about a pic of the head light and tail light? Did you use a 530 tail assembly? Baja pressure switch? Bleed the brakes with dot 5.1?

nakman
03-25-2012, 11:48 AM
How about a pic of the head light and tail light? Did you use a 530 tail assembly? Baja pressure switch? Bleed the brakes with dot 5.1?

Ok. Headlight is the Polysport Halo H4 http://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/p/44/54/227/1156/-/26751/Polisport-Halo-H4-Headlight

wiring kit is the Tusk Enduro kit from RM with the handguard LED's http://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/p/44/54/227/1156/-/26723/Tusk-Motorcycle-Enduro-Lighting-Kit-with-Handguard-Turn-Signals/TUSK+DUAL+SPORT+WIRING+HARNESS

I reused the stock tail light, as it seemed to fit better with that big orange piece of plastic. Yes I'm still running an incandescent 1157 bulb in there. The handguard turn signals seem to do the job pretty good, I had to de-bling them with some sticker removal and paint.. the back turn signals are just little stick-ons, but they're bright especially if you are next to the bike, a little less so if you are behind it. At night it'll light stuff up quite nicely though.

nakman
03-25-2012, 11:52 AM
I also moved the silly little mirror over to right next to the grip, between it and the clutch. That allows for actually seeing behind you when you ride, I'd recommend that for anyone who still has one of those tiny cheap mirrors. In fact I have a second one someone could have.. I still need to do the pressure switch in the front caliper.

rover67
03-25-2012, 12:09 PM
Don't forget to safety wire the grips. they tend to come loose and spin. A grip that is spinning on the throttle tube kinda sucks... you can't go anywhere.

nakman
03-25-2012, 11:37 PM
Don't forget to safety wire the grips. they tend to come loose and spin. A grip that is spinning on the throttle tube kinda sucks... you can't go anywhere.

Alright, I'll do something on the throttle side..


Hey Bruce thanks for coming by today to check it out, all brake switches are working well and happy with new juice. :cool:

Red_Chili
03-26-2012, 08:23 AM
You may want to turn the tag vertical. Might save slicing those nice riding pants in a get-off. Or worse.

For the grips you can use good glue. I've had safety wire break and slice my hand.

farnhamstj
03-26-2012, 09:24 AM
I was gonna say the same about the plate. That thing looks like a knife blade waiting to cut your leg wide open during a fall. I'm not sure stick on lights will stay connected very long either. maybe a wood screw through from the backside? Looks good though. Do you have a plan for carrying tools and spare tube?

Red_Chili
03-26-2012, 09:31 AM
FWIW, I have an MSR backpack I found at a motorcycle shop. Has a compartment for tools, with little holders etc., room for a bladder, and enough room to hold my enduro jacket. MUCH better than trying to find a place on the bike, and get it to stay put with all the weight of tools etc. banging around.

I also have a tube bag that goes on the front fender. I carry a 3.00x21 tube, it will also work in the back in a pinch. Room for tire irons and a CO2 inflator kit. Kinda interferes with my headlight beam though. Meh.

nakman
03-26-2012, 10:30 AM
Alright, flipping the plate is easy enough, I've already got the drill in the drill press for that. A plan for carrying a tube & tools? I was just going to ride with you, Farnham. :o