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Fishy
03-21-2012, 09:19 PM
I posted this on MUD but not getting any answers.

I'm in the process of installing the IBS Dual Battery System (with RBM) in my 100. As I'm going through the system I don't understand how the system recharges the batteries if one is drained lower than the other.

If I camp somewhere and use the inverter, fridge, camp lights and external DVD player and deplete the aux battery, it will take forever for that battery to recharge because the regulator will send the electricity along the path of least resistance, correct? In other words, it will send a charge to the main battery and very little to the aux battery, in turn taking a very long time to recharge the battery I really need charged. Will the "manual link" feature charge the aux battery faster?

Has anyone experienced this? Any electronics guys want to chime in? Or, am I wrong?

nakman
03-22-2012, 09:08 AM
You will charge the main battery first, the once it crosses the threshold you will charge the second battery. Presuming you wire everything to the backup, this will happen right away when you start the truck, but technically could be delayed if the main was worn down. I have never seen this though, both batteries read full voltage on mine instantly every time I start up, regardless of what I ran down. I suspect that's because the alternator is providing more juice than #1 can handle, so the ibs deal diverts that surplus to #2. And pushing manual won't make a difference, since you will see both are combined instantly automatically.

Manual link will allow you to pull from the main without turning the truck on, but only for a couple minutes then it switches back. I suspect that's a feature not a defect, but can be annoying since the thing beeps incessantly when there's a low voltage condition- on the cheaper Hellroaring you can flip a toggle switch to run your main battery down too, but I haven't found that option yet on the ibs, without running back to push the button every 5 minutes.

Edit: if you need he wiring that RBI let me know, Texas Chris installed that in his 100, took us a bit to figure it all out but I could put you in touch!

DaveInDenver
03-22-2012, 11:27 AM
Do these systems monitor both batteries and how many (of those evil) relays or switches does it use? IOW, how does the alternator get connected to the batteries? Can the batteries be paralleled for starting & winching? A link or datasheet would be helpful, I'm not familiar with them. I run the old fashioned dual batteries, I bring along one of the spares I keep charging at the house (to run the Engel, some lights and a radio if we lose power) and if my battery is dead, I swap them. But we have designed a few solar array/battery charge controllers so I'm curious what these things do.

Fishy
03-22-2012, 11:36 AM
Tim,
I think that's incorrect.


Don't both batteries read full on start up because it's reading the current from the alternator? The regulator doesn't know you have two batteries, it only sees a battery, could be one or ten. It's reading full because it's reading alternator current while the truck is running.


Let's say I take the kids camping for 2 days. Day one we run the inverter, plug in a bunch of things, use camp lights and so on. I run the aux battery down. The next day we drive for 30 minutes and set up camp again. My aux battery will not have charged because the system thinks I only have one battery (the main). It will read full for both on my display while my truck is running, but if I unhooked the main, and shut my truck off it wouldn't show full anymore.


If I started my truck and then unhooked my main battery, the LED display will still show 2 batteries because the relay is closed. Then it would read low voltage and the aux battery would charge quicker.

DaveInDenver
03-22-2012, 11:45 AM
Is this the guy?

http://ibs-tech.ch/typo3temp/pics/db216b0dda.jpg http://ibs-tech.ch/typo3temp/pics/b7c6b634f5.jpg

If so, looks like to me that with the engine running the batteries will always look 'full'. With the engine off, then you get a true state of charge.

Also looks like to me that the main battery is always being charged and the second battery only gets switched in once the main is sensed to be full. When it does the regulated voltage will get some combination of sense of the the two and the main battery will supply current to charge the second one. This is not an optimal setup (I'd prefer to prevent main-to-secondary flow) but it works as long as the second battery is not allowed to remain in the circuit with the engine off. It also allows using both for winching and self-jump starting.

nakman
03-22-2012, 11:49 AM
Yeah Stan that's a good point, you're right. I run my 2nd battery down to between 12.0 and 12.4 every day at work, depending on how hot it is... and when I drive home of course the gauge shows full charge, but an hour after I shut the truck off I get a more truer reading, like 12.6. If it's a short trip at lunch or something the 2nd is only up to 12.2-12.4. I think I remember hearing it takes about 3 hours of actual driving (higher than idle rpm's) to get back to a more full charge. I have also heard many times that our alternators are not designed to work well with type AGM batteries, they will charge them but not all the way, so doesn't hurt to put them on a charger/tender every now and again, particularly before a big trip.

And Dave you are correct, and just one evil relay, for the record. ;)

DaveInDenver
03-22-2012, 12:06 PM
I have also heard many times that our alternators are not designed to work well with type AGM batteries, they will charge them but not all the way
This is not true unless your charging system isn't functioning right. If it undercharges an AGM, it would undercharge flooded types, too. Now that is a problem, voltage regulators that need to be checked or adjusted. Things are (or were) often set to minimize the chance of over charging in the worse condition (say Phoenix in the summer).

At 75F (ideal charge voltage is a function of temp), they want to bulk charge (e.g. be fed as much current as they want held at a constant voltage) at 14.4V (2.4V per cell) and float at 13.5V (2.25V/cell) just like flooded type. You never normally want to exceed 2.4V/cell on any flooded or AGM battery, since that'll over charge, over heat and probably start the battery venting.

The problem with auto charging systems is using sealed gel (so called SLAB), they must never be subjected to higher than 14.0V as that will ruin them.

Whatever the case, you can tell if you're charging right if the resting open circuit voltage is 12.8V for an AGM or 12.7V for a flooded type. If it's not, then yes, you are undercharged or the battery is wearing down.

One thing our charging systems do not do is equalize batteries well. That requires 2.6V/cell for flooded and 2.5V/cell for AGM but must be done carefully so as not to overheat. You must use constant current and constant voltage for a controlled period. Automotive charging systems are not designed to control charge current and have no timed function, thus they only operate in bulk mode and quasi float. This is where a smart charger is required, but that was true of flooded batteries, too. I personally use a IOTA DLS-45 to condition my batteries and float the reserve ones.

Fishy
03-22-2012, 12:20 PM
Is this the guy?

http://ibs-tech.ch/typo3temp/pics/db216b0dda.jpg http://ibs-tech.ch/typo3temp/pics/b7c6b634f5.jpg

If so, looks like to me that with the engine running the batteries will always look 'full'. With the engine off, then you get a true state of charge.

Also looks like to me that the main battery is always being charged and the second battery only gets switched in once the main is sensed to be full. When it does the regulated voltage will get some combination of sense of the the two and the main battery will supply current to charge the second one. This is not an optimal setup (I'd prefer to prevent main-to-secondary flow) but it works as long as the second battery is not allowed to remain in the circuit with the engine off. It also allows using both for winching and self-jump starting.

Dave,

That's the one. I see a flaw in the LCD display system. It gives you warm fuzzies when you start your truck and think you're golden on your batteries. Unless you really know what's going on, you could get yourself stranded thinking you can use your main battery for something and let it run down, because your aux battery reads full, you assume it will start your truck if need be. In fact, that may not be the case. This is not a fool proof system at all.

I so bad want to borrow a quote from Tommy Boy....ah why not?


"Here's the way I see it, Ted. Guy puts fancy lights on a box 'cause he wants you to feel all warm and toasty inside"

"Yeah, makes a man feel good"

'Course it does. Why shouldn't it? Ya figure you put that little box under your pillow at night, the LCD Fairy might come by and leave a quarter, am I right? The point is, how do you know the fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy; well, we're not buying it. He sneaks into your house once, that's all it takes. The next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser, and your daughter's knocked up. I seen it a hundred times. :lmao::lmao:

nakman
03-22-2012, 12:24 PM
This is not true unless your charging system isn't functioning right..



To clarify, the reference is to charging an AGM that has been drained. First reference, off the top of my head...

Ken, are you using a AGM charger with the generator? My experience was the same when I had the Kimberly Kamper. The vehicle or a generator will not charge the AGM batteries up to full capacity. They will read full voltage, but they have virtually no capacity. Now I have not tried to the AGM charger but from talking to the Oddessy rep, the recommended way to charge those is to use a AGM specific charger to get them back up to spec when you fully drain them.

DaveInDenver
03-22-2012, 12:25 PM
Without knowing current, there's no way to judge charge conditions with the engine running or a solar panel connected. So you do need to know the health of the batteries before starting out for the day. But driving on the highway for a couple of hours should get the majority of both batteries charged, presuming you only use the main for starting, since it will not need a lot of energy and most of it should be consumed by the aux battery.

sleeoffroad
03-22-2012, 12:33 PM
Dave,

That's the one. I see a flaw in the LCD display system. It gives you warm fuzzies when you start your truck and think you're golden on your batteries. Unless you really know what's going on, you could get yourself stranded thinking you can use your main battery for something and let it run down, because your aux battery reads full, you assume it will start your truck if need be. In fact, that may not be the case. This is not a fool proof system at all.

I am not aware of a way to sense the voltage of each individual battery when they are connected to facilitate charging of both batteries. Yes, you have to still be aware of what is going on.

What the dual LED system for both batteries are nice for is to tell you if the batteries are actually linked or not. So if you drive, and both should read the same, and they do not, then you know the system did not link together.

So you are not really going to know the status of the 2nd battery, but you will know if it is NOT getting charged.


I so bad want to borrow a quote from Tommy Boy....ah why not?


Maybe Dave knows if one can do that, but as you said, it is pretty much one big battery when linked.

Fishy
03-22-2012, 12:35 PM
A couple hours at least, and that's the problem. The alternator will charge at a very slow rate because the battery it reads is the main, because the truck is running and the relay is closed (both batteries acting as one)

sleeoffroad
03-22-2012, 12:35 PM
Here is the Odyssey Reference

http://www.odysseybattery.com/chargers.html

In short, newer trucks like 100's does not put out 14.7v for charging.

DaveInDenver
03-22-2012, 12:36 PM
To clarify, the reference is to charging an AGM that has been drained. First reference, off the top of my head...
I can't tell you why they said that. The only reason I could think is alternator capacity. Most AGM batteries will want a lot of current during initial bulk charge from deep discharge, on the order of 100 amps.

What he might be referring is that flooded types don't need to be 2.4V/cell, they will bulk charge down to 2.3V/cell just fine where as AGM typically won't like to be under 2.35V/cell. But the system in my truck delivers right at 14.4V and can only do 40A to the battery, but I don't seem to eat up batteries (my current Red Top is 5 years old now and it replaced one that went 7). I never had to tweak anything.

rover67
03-22-2012, 12:42 PM
my truck does 14.9v at charge and dosen't seem to eat up batts either. My current optima I use for starting i got in 2001.

I have noticed that both batteries take a pretty healthy charge if one is dead on my Dual Batt system. (alt gets hot) It joins the batteries also only after voltage on the main batt comes up.. which is always almost instant.

rover67
03-22-2012, 12:56 PM
also forgot to mention that when I took my alternator to vanatta electric in Boulder because I thought it was overcharging, every single regulator we looked up for it was set at 14.9 volts.

Conclusion was that they changed to 14.9 volts for charging on the newer GM alternators.

DaveInDenver
03-22-2012, 01:00 PM
also forgot to mention that when I took my alternator to vanatta electric in Boulder because I thought it was overcharging, every single regulator we looked up for it was set at 14.9 volts.

Conclusion was that they changed to 14.9 volts for charging on the newer GM alternators.
That does seem very high. I'd be very concerned anyway, but doesn't seem to affect you if you're getting 10 years from batteries. Curious. I thought 14.9V would only be OK up to maybe 40F or so. Maybe GM has a way to regulate battery voltage separate from the alternator/regulator itself.

rover67
03-22-2012, 01:02 PM
That does seem very high. I'd be very concerned anyway, but doesn't seem to affect you if you're getting 10 years from batteries. Curious.

maybe it's too much of a tangent from the thread, but how the heck would one lower it other than finding some other kind of regulator for the alt?

Also, in keeping with the thread, does it make sense that if one of my 2 batteries is way down they charge at a higher rate? I've only got the hand test on the alternator to base my statements on (heat)

DaveInDenver
03-22-2012, 01:05 PM
Here is the Odyssey Reference

http://www.odysseybattery.com/chargers.html

In short, newer trucks like 100's does not put out 14.7v for charging.
It does not indicate temperature, but 2.45V/cell would be fine at 70F and lower, but would be damaging above. At 90F the max temp AGM batteries want to see is 2.38V/cell (14.3V) and at 100F you should not exceed 2.36V/cell (14.2V). Also notice that the profile indicates a controlled current and time at 14.7V, which is considered equalizing phase. A battery rep should also tell you that you do /not/ want to equalize often, this is hard on batteries. Bulk charge is constant voltage with no current limit, which is done at a lower voltage. This is exactly why I have the IOTA charger I do, so I can condition batteries periodically when I see (by open circuit no-load voltage) that they need it. This is maybe once a year sort of thing.
Maybe Dave knows if one can do that, but as you said, it is pretty much one big battery when linked.
It can be done, just that you need to know individual battery current and have the ability to switch each battery on and off the charging bus. Keeping it simple like they do is fine just as long as you recognize that you will not be optimally charging even with the right voltage.

Fishy
03-22-2012, 01:40 PM
I think you can modify the system to manually "unlink" the batteries once the truck is running. Thus fully charging the aux battery. That's my plan. The entire system won't know the difference.



Like Christo mentioned, the bonus of the IBS system is to see the batteries linked together. That can be done without the in cab voltage meter of the IBS System. That being said, I'm still gonna visit Christo this week for the second battery tray and run the IBS system. However, I'm going to modify it for my needs. I need a second battery that I can recharge in the field in minimal time. I don't want to drive 3 hours just to charge my aux battery.



I guess that's why they sell the IBS solar charging kit?

sleeoffroad
03-22-2012, 01:49 PM
I think you can modify the system to manually "unlink" the batteries once the truck is running. Thus fully charging the aux battery. That's my plan. The entire system won't know the difference.

How are you going to do that? If you unlink, the 2nd battery will not charge. Unless you are going to switch the alternator output as well so you can select what battery it charges.



Like Christo mentioned, the bonus of the IBS system is to see the batteries linked together. That can be done without the in cab voltage meter of the IBS System. That being said, I'm still gonna visit Christo this week for the second battery tray (and a bumper) and run the IBS system. However, I'm going to modify it for my needs. I need a second battery that I can recharge in the field in minimal time. I don't want to drive 3 hours just to charge my aux battery.


Even if you just charge the one depleted battery, how are you going to get it charged up with minimal driving? You are going to need a generator or solar source.

DaveInDenver
03-22-2012, 02:21 PM
I think you can modify the system to manually "unlink" the batteries once the truck is running. Thus fully charging the aux battery. That's my plan. The entire system won't know the difference.
Looks like to me that you can only link and unlink the aux battery from the system. Doing this will isolate a dead battery from the system, which you might want to do if you are not charging to keep the main from being drawn down. The only reason that I could see linked the two batteries in this system while not running would be to jump start yourself or maybe to winch.
Like Christo mentioned, the bonus of the IBS system is to see the batteries linked together. That can be done without the in cab voltage meter of the IBS System. That being said, I'm still gonna visit Christo this week for the second battery tray (and a bumper) and run the IBS system. However, I'm going to modify it for my needs. I need a second battery that I can recharge in the field in minimal time. I don't want to drive 3 hours just to charge my aux battery.
You'll need some combination of time and energy equal to the depleted charge. It might be a couple of hours at highway to replace a whole night of use. Some laws cannot be broken...

Fishy
03-22-2012, 02:48 PM
I'm not trying to get an instant charge, just much faster than the current system allows.

corsair23
03-22-2012, 04:51 PM
How much of a difference would it really make?

Assuming the starting battery is at near full charge and reaches full charge within 15 mins of starting the truck, how much slower really is the aux battery getting charged assuming the majority of the charge is being directed to it?

I'm curious since I'll be installing the IBS as well. I'm not a "power" user so I'm not as concerned as Stan is but are we talking a 3 hour drive vs. a 2.5 hour drive for a full charge on the aux battery? Just talking high level because I know it depends on many factors. Just wondering if we are saying the aux battery will only be getting 50% of the charge or ??

I guess I always assumed that one the main battery was at 100% then 100% of the available charging got directed to the aux battery...

DaveInDenver
03-22-2012, 05:23 PM
To know you need to see what current it's consuming.

corsair23
03-23-2012, 01:39 PM
To know you need to see what current it's consuming.

I figured you might be able to offer some Dave style hypothesizing :D

Figure 2 identical batteries. 1 is the starting battery only and near full charge after driving to camp. The aux battery is down to 50% after a couple days of heavy use camping.

A stock alternator would be able to recharge the aux battery in a certain amount of time (with some caveats) if you were to take your approach and swap the aux battery in as the starting battery while driving (i.e. no dual battery setup).

But, with say the IBS system, would it take 2, 3, 4, 5 times as long to get the aux battery charged up?

As you mentioned, if you deplete the aux battery it is going to take some time to charge it back up and it will be longer than a short drive to the next camp even if the aux battery were getting the full charge.

Here is the IBS manufacturer's website:

http://ibs-tech.ch/en.html

IBS Dual Battery System FAQs (http://ibs-tech.ch/en/products/dual-battery-system/faqs-for-ibs-dbsdbi.html)

Data Sheet (http://ibs-tech.ch/en/products/dual-battery-system/data-sheet-dbsdbisbs.html)


And I found this in there under the rumors section:

The alternator only sees the well charged starter battery and does not properly charge the discharged auxiliary battery?
The alternator is a constant voltage charging device with temperature compensation and delivers up to its maximum rating charge current. The IBS Dual Battery System links the batteries as soon the charge voltage exceeds 13.1V this happens within a few seconds up to 3 minutes depending on the car. When the batteries are linked, the current flows according to the internal resistance of the batteries. The starter battery, in most cases, only takes a little current and the rest of the alternator capacity is available to recharge the auxiliary battery and to run auxiliary electrics and electronics.

corsair23
03-23-2012, 01:46 PM
Manual link will allow you to pull from the main without turning the truck on, but only for a couple minutes then it switches back. I suspect that's a feature not a defect, but can be annoying since the thing beeps incessantly when there's a low voltage condition- on the cheaper Hellroaring you can flip a toggle switch to run your main battery down too, but I haven't found that option yet on the ibs, without running back to push the button every 5 minutes.

Tim,

I found this on IBS' site:


Manual Battery "link"
In an emergency situation (defective or empty Main Battery) or in case of higher power consumption the two batteries (Main & Aux) may be connected together by activating the link button (red LED manually linked is on) After a laps of time of 30 minutes (or immediately after activating the auto button), the system returns to the automatic mode. When using an electric winch, the battery connection can be activated for 180 minutes by pressing twice the link button. In this mode sounds every 30 seconds a Beep to remind this status (Auto return after time expired). The load sharing function with the manual battery connection reduces the load on the alternator, the wiring and the batteries in the use of the winch.


Seems like the "link" should be for 30 or 180 mins depending on selection and the beep is a reminder.

nakman
03-23-2012, 01:55 PM
Tim,

I found this on IBS' site:



Seems like the "link" should be for 30 or 180 mins depending on selection and the beep is a reminder.

Interesting, thanks. 30 minutes seems like longer than my experience, it felt like more every 5-10 minutes.. was camping and at the time had the fridge hooked up to the starting battery, was listening to the radio too. But all evening long had to go back to push the link button, to make the beeping stop. I didn't know about the 180 minute option, but a beep every 30 seconds to remind me? geez that's worse than one every 30 minutes... :rolleyes:

DaveInDenver
03-23-2012, 03:40 PM
But, with say the IBS system, would it take 2, 3, 4, 5 times as long to get the aux battery charged up?
Assuming the main battery was in good shape, it would not take significantly longer to charge in the IBS type system than if you had no system and just physically swapped main and aux, but with an exception to consider...

First off, it might actually take less time if it was deeply discharged to bring the aux back up in the IBS system because it would draw current from the main battery as they equalized. But this is the caveat that allowing the batteries to be parallel means you will equalize the two by drawing down the good one to the bad one. A true isolator would only let charge current flow one direction.

You might have to keep the batteries separate until you have a chance to keep the alternator at a sustained higher RPM. If you do multiple days of crawling with lots of stops and idling, you could end up with two partially discharged batteries if they are linked.

Fishy
03-26-2012, 12:30 PM
I'm starting to think this system is a lot of gimmick with very little function. In my opinion it's just not worth 400+ for something that can be done for $50, with less hassle, less parts to fail and better components. I'm delaying my install to consider just selling the IBS and doing an old fashioned dual battery set up without the useless blinking lights and sounds.

corsair23
03-26-2012, 01:34 PM
:confused:

Not a warm fuzzy endorsement...

My goal behind a dual battery system was:

(A) run the majority of my aux stuff off the aux battery
(B) leave the starting battery to mostly just starting the truck
(c) be able to "jump" myself should the primary battery go dead
(d) isolate the two so that my good battery doesn't get sucked dry by a dead battery :)

I figured $400-$500 was the price one had to pay to buy a plug-and-play system when one can't figure out how to do it himself :hill:

Red_Chili
03-26-2012, 01:35 PM
FWIW, a high current solenoid picked off of IGN+ (and selectable for isolating, or self jumping, or batts parallel only on IGN+) has worked well for me for years...

DaveInDenver
03-26-2012, 01:42 PM
A single solenoid like Bill uses is one cheap/simple option or a diode isolator is another simple option. Some people don't like diode isolators because of the forward voltage drop, but IMHO it's not an insurmountable problem for the benefit a true isolation (I'm not a fan of letting the good battery ever get sucked into charge-helping duty).

The only thing to watch with a solenoid is that the coil is rated for continuous duty, which a typical starting solenoid is not. They might look the same, but they're not necessarily.

My problem is figuring out where to put a second battery. Just nowhere has jumped out at me under the hood, so the bed in a box is my only real choice so far. But there's not that much room back there either, so nothing permanent has been done.

I've already designed the isolator. Uses HEXFETs, low drop (about 0.15V @ 10A, although at full alternator capability it would be more like 0.6V) with the ability to parallel the batteries like a solenoid. The problem is that I haven't solved the starting or winching while paralleled current flow. But they're good to 100A, so the charging isn't a problem, just the V drop gets impractical without several FETs per circuit.

A pair of jumper cables is all you need to self-jump regardless of the controller, not fancy but works. It would be nice to be able to use both batteries in winch, though.

Fishy
03-26-2012, 02:05 PM
For $25 from Ebay or 3 shops here in Denver. http://compare.ebay.com/like/320859988390?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar

Turning this switch off while camping will isolate the aux battery. The main battery will not be touched. No wires to mess with, no system to fail. In easy terms, I would self jump my truck every time I started. For $10 I could install a voltmeter in my glove box that would fuction EXACTLY the same as the IBS one. Maybe even better, I'd get a digital display just by turning the voltmeter on.

The idea of of linking both batteries for winching like the IBS claims...... your vehicle is always running while you winch, the batteries are already linked.

Fishy
03-26-2012, 02:16 PM
:confused:


I figured $400-$500 was the price one had to pay to buy a plug-and-play system when one can't figure out how to do it himself :hill:

I figured the same. A simple on/off switch is a million times easier though. I'll still have 2 batteries with the ability to isolate the aux and run my HAM, lights, inverter, fridge...

I'll always have the ability to jump myself and I'll always be able to see the current state of either battery. The 100 even has a voltmeter as a dummy gauge, but a $10 voltmeter is easy to carry.

If something fails (most likely the relay) in the IBS system, or the LCD box goes haywire, can I get those parts? I don't know if I could trace the problem back to one specific wire on the IBS system. There are a lot of wires and if just one wire rubs through and shorts something out, then what? :rant:

nakman
03-26-2012, 02:24 PM
You make some good points Stan, and great thread btw. Marco here did a pretty good write-up/thread on a similar setup to what you're talking about using a voltage sensing relay, http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showthread.php?t=11009 check it out.

sleeoffroad
03-26-2012, 02:38 PM
For $25 from Ebay or 3 shops here in Denver. http://compare.ebay.com/like/320859988390?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar

Turning this switch off while camping will isolate the aux battery. The main battery will not be touched. No wires to mess with, no system to fail.


The only thing that can fail is the operator when you forget to switch it at the came site when you have the first :beer: in hand :)

corsair23
03-26-2012, 04:26 PM
The 100 even has a voltmeter as a dummy gauge, but a $10 voltmeter is easy to carry.

I've got the Nakman voltmeter bling in my 80 already...just missing leads to the aux battery when it goes in.

But your single switch won't isolate the batteries during normal use correct? So, if you have a battery go bad some day around town you could end up with two dead batteries, unless you plan to only link the batteries when driving...Lots of flipping. You need a solenoid as well correct?

And I would say that yes, normally you would be winching with the engine running, maybe even 99% of the time. But there might be a time when the engine in fact isn't running.

sleeoffroad
03-26-2012, 05:38 PM
The IBS system works and does what it should. Connect batteries when the charge level reaches a certain level and disconnects when it goes below that. It is a 2 wire hookup. About as easy as it gets.

A voltage sensing relay like the BlueSea does the same ( had one in a truck) however it does not have timing logic so if you had a 2nd battery that is low, and it connects due to charge circuit being high enough but he alternator can not sustain the charge above the level (like when idling) it will drop the connection. Then the voltage would go up and it would connect again and go into a state of "fluttering" when it connects and disconnect.

The IBS does not do that since it has timing circuit built in to prevent that from happening.

Also, what Tim was describing is a alarm to warn you that you are killing the battery. It is designed to do that so you don't kill the battery.

Fishy
03-26-2012, 08:40 PM
I've got the Nakman voltmeter bling in my 80 already...just missing leads to the aux battery when it goes in.

But your single switch won't isolate the batteries during normal use correct? So, if you have a battery go bad some day around town you could end up with two dead batteries, unless you plan to only link the batteries when driving...Lots of flipping. You need a solenoid as well correct?

And I would say that yes, normally you would be winching with the engine running, maybe even 99% of the time. But there might be a time when the engine in fact isn't running.

I went and picked up a battery disconnect switch today. Picked up an 8 Place fuse panel as well. $49 for both. It won't let me isolate the batteries during normal use, but it will let me do exactly what the IBS does (minus the lights and alarm) for $360 less. The fuse panel and switch both fit perfect on the Slee 100 series battery tray.

The switch (mechanical solenoid) will always remain "on" unless I want to only use the aux battery. In that case, i will have to physically turn it to "off".

In theory, just like you said, I could end up with 2 dead batteries. But that's no more likely than my alternator failing, or ripping 2 sidewallls when I only carry one spare. How often to batteries just fail? If it just fails all of a sudden, the IBS system wouldn't prevent that either, it would just "tell you" your battery is dead.:confused:

I'm not saying the IBS system doesn't do what it's supposed to do, it's just something for my application, that can be done for $350 cheaper. Albeit, not as "fancy". I have no need for the lights in my interior. A simple dual battery system is all I need. Something that I can figure out, one switch, no frills, if something goes wrong a basic voltmeter will solve. Again, I'm not knocking the IBS system, a lot of people are using them and selling them. Initially my plan was to modify the IBS so I could separate both batteries at any time via a switch in the cab, but a little smarts and common sense will prevent me from ever draining both batteries all the way dead. There will be no "fluttering" or any thing like that. It's a very basic set up that's been used for 10 times as long as the IBS has been around.

Fishy
03-26-2012, 08:54 PM
http://www.sleeoffroad.com/products/products_battery.htm

Dual battery LED Indicator should tell me everything I need to know as well.

nakman
03-26-2012, 09:31 PM
Also, what Tim was describing is a alarm to warn you that you are killing the battery. It is designed to do that so you don't kill the battery.

I get that, but to be clear the only way I'd be in this situation would be by a conscious effort in linking the two, in which case I'd like to think I knew what I was doing. This is like camping with someone's whiny annoying friend who can't relax.

IOW, it was nice of you to loan me your battery so I could run my fridge down a little colder this evening. But if you're going to rub it in my face every 30 seconds then you can just have it back, I'll just cook the rest of this meat right now and drink warm beer the rest of the weekend. :D

sleeoffroad
03-27-2012, 06:36 AM
I get that, but to be clear the only way I'd be in this situation would be by a conscious effort in linking the two, in which case I'd like to think I knew what I was doing. This is like camping with someone's whiny annoying friend who can't relax.

IOW, it was nice of you to loan me your battery so I could run my fridge down a little colder this evening. But if you're going to rub it in my face every 30 seconds then you can just have it back, I'll just cook the rest of this meat right now and drink warm beer the rest of the weekend. :D

Yes, I can see that. A simple switch in the main battery sense wire should enable you to do just that. I have to look at the time interval for the warnings and see if it can be set.


I can also see where Fishy is coming from re: the simple switch. My problem is I will forget it on or off and normally that would be the wrong setting. We normally do the dual battery systems for redundancy and having them auto isolate is what we prefer. If you forget to switch the manual switch and one of the kids leave the dome light one, you are also going to loose both batteries and then you are stuck.

nakman
03-27-2012, 09:12 AM
Yes, I can see that. A simple switch in the main battery sense wire should enable you to do just that. I have to look at the time interval for the warnings and see if it can be set.


I can also see where Fishy is coming from re: the simple switch. My problem is I will forget it on or off and normally that would be the wrong setting. We normally do the dual battery systems for redundancy and having them auto isolate is what we prefer. If you forget to switch the manual switch and one of the kids leave the dome light one, you are also going to loose both batteries and then you are stuck.

I don't exactly have a horse in this race, so just responding for the thrill of continuing the argument. Remember the 100 shuts those domes off for you after a few minutes, even if you leave the door open. And even if they didn't, I have a feeling two AGM's would power an LED dome for days on end. :D plus I have jumper cables.

sleeoffroad
03-27-2012, 09:29 AM
I don't exactly have a horse in this race, so just responding for the thrill of continuing the argument. Remember the 100 shuts those domes off for you after a few minutes, even if you leave the door open. And even if they didn't, I have a feeling two AGM's would power an LED dome for days on end. :D plus I have jumper cables.

Replace dome with DVD player, WII, late maker or any other device. I just don't like a redundant battery system that relies on the operator to disconnect. I think it defeats the purpose.

corsair23
03-27-2012, 04:17 PM
I went and picked up a battery disconnect switch today. Picked up an 8 Place fuse panel as well. $49 for both. It won't let me isolate the batteries during normal use, but it will let me do exactly what the IBS does (minus the lights and alarm) for $360 less. The fuse panel and switch both fit perfect on the Slee 100 series battery tray.

The switch (mechanical solenoid) will always remain "on" unless I want to only use the aux battery. In that case, i will have to physically turn it to "off".

I'm interested in hearing how it works out for you :thumb:

Cost wise I think you might not come in quite that much under the IBS system...In the kit I received they include battery cables, terminals, etc. Unless you weren't planning to use that stuff anyway, then sourcing this stuff will be an additional cost to your solution...maybe $50-$100 depending on what you source.

Still, I'm still looking for something convincing to go with the IBS system other than my dilemna of not having enough grasp on all of this to put something together on my own :o

Fishy
03-27-2012, 05:25 PM
I'm interested in hearing how it works out for you :thumb:

Cost wise I think you might not come in quite that much under the IBS system...In the kit I received they include battery cables, terminals, etc. Unless you weren't planning to use that stuff anyway, then sourcing this stuff will be an additional cost to your solution...maybe $50-$100 depending on what you source.

Still, I'm still looking for something convincing to go with the IBS system other than my dilemna of not having enough grasp on all of this to put something together on my own :o

Good points, I spent $24 for a Cole Hersee switch. I'm guessing $50 on battery cables. The 8 place fuse panel I would have bought even with the IBS, so I don't count that as extra. Even if I spent $175 dollars on wires/cables (no way will I spend that much) that's still $200 less than what I spent on the IBS + RBM.

I think the bigger issue for me is the reduced wiring, reduced connections and the confidence that i truly understand the very basic system. That IBS system had a lot of connections and small wires plus lights and alarms. Honestly, I'm still not smart enough to understand what it does better than a basic set up.

I like nice stuff as much as the next guy, but if I don't understand how to use it when I need it, it defeats the purpose for me. Granted, I have to be more vigilant to ensure I isolate the aux battery when I pull into our camp spot, but that's as basic as ensuring I have enough gas, or emergency provisions. As long as I wire my camping accessories to the aux battery, and make one flip of the switch, my kids can leave stuff on all day and night, it will only drain the aux battery.

rover67
03-27-2012, 07:40 PM
dont underestimate the cost of copper...

Of course, if you run small gauge stuff it won't be too bad.