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pramjockey
06-07-2012, 09:18 PM
I was reading in the Argentine Pass cleanup thread:

http://risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showthread.php?t=17909

that chainsaws aren't allowed because it's an official Forest Service project, unless you have the specific training. Well, I'm always up for some training, especially when it comes to keeping my fingers and toes attached to my body. So, I'm working on gathering information from the Forest Service on class info, and one thing they asked me is if I knew anyone else that would be interested in going.

So, if you might be interested in attending such a thing, please let me know so I can give a rough estimate of interest. At this point I don't have any information on cost, schedule, or anything like that, but I will update as that becomes available.

Thanks!

SRT08BUS
06-07-2012, 09:53 PM
This is something I need to learn and if it means some training and something I can put on a resume than I'm in, time and location of classes is my only issue.

subzali
06-08-2012, 07:31 AM
Just FYI, even if you take the training from what I understand it probably won't mean they will want us cutting trees on our volunteer workdays. I'd be interested depending on cost, dates, etc.

Rock Dog
06-08-2012, 10:36 AM
I am interested in getting whatever check mark is needed by the Forest service to be able to cut down trees fallen across the trails we maintain when encountered....

Do they allow a Bow Saw to cut through them without the class?

Red_Chili
06-08-2012, 11:23 AM
Ditto.

coax
06-08-2012, 12:12 PM
I don't have a ton of info but the chainsaw class for wild land firefighting is called S212 (http://training.nwcg.gov/pre-courses/s212/S212PreCcourseWork.pdf). I went through the class but didn't get the actual cert since the job didn't focus on firefighting but just a large amount of general saw work. It is a fairly in-depth (multi day, iirc) class that focuses on multiple aspects of saw use (safety, maintenance, timber falling, bucking, limbing, etc).

I'll say that the fact you are looking at getting training for this type of thing is really great. I've come across so many people that use saw's improperly its amazing more people are not hurt or killed.

There may be more or other classes than the s212 that leave out the wildfire component. You can also look for D. Douglass Dent's book Professional Timber Falling. No replacement for hands on training and experience, but its a good reference.

Stay safe. Saws, kickback, trees under tension or rolling can turn a good day bad pretty quick. I guess the one thing I'd add: The liability associated with people using saws at a volunteer event is fairly significant. The risk to the sawyer and swamper (as well as other people) even if properly trained is still quite high. While training is good (great) it probably comes down to lawyers and whatnot for people using saws for events like the one you mentioned just due to the fact that so many aspects associated with a high risk activity are now beyond their control (IE Does the brake on your personal saw work? How new are the chaps? Helmet?) .

Anyway, don't mean to scare people away; hands on training for these things is always the way to go! And for those that really want an in depth look into saw use, the 212 class is great :cheers:

Chris
06-08-2012, 12:18 PM
Just FYI, even if you take the training from what I understand it probably won't mean they will want us cutting trees on our volunteer workdays. I'd be interested depending on cost, dates, etc.

On the money there Matt, I talked to Brant about it and there's no way they allow non-empoyees exposing them to that liability.

Rock Dog
06-08-2012, 03:14 PM
On the money there Matt, I talked to Brant about it and there's no way they allow non-empoyees exposing them to that liability.

What about if we go as a small group, or alone a week earlier or whatever... There have been multiple times i have come across fallen trees on a trail where some Bozo's have built a new, unwanted bypass around the tree....
I hate seeing that.

But i want to follow any forst service rules, so if the certification allows me to cut them up and re-open up the real trail when not part of such an event (to limit Liability), then it i still worth getting from my perspective...

Chris
06-08-2012, 03:31 PM
I won't speak for Brant but my understanding of the FS position is that if you are volunteering in any way you have to leave the chainsaw behind.

From a personal view I will choose to remove an obstruction before going off trail. If someone happens to have a chainsaw and uses it on public land for the betterment of the road all the better IMHO. (Just don't use it and claim volunteer hours with the FS.)

Again, my opinion but Brant was very clear on the FS view of volunteers with chainsaws.

euroford
06-08-2012, 05:07 PM
Is this the Class C certification course?

if you have a class C Sawyer license, your not really a volunteer anymore, but qualify for employment as a sawyer by the USFS. now whether or not you get hired for a paying job is something else....

I did mine through the Granby office and have taken some (non paying) jobs doing Beatle kill mitigation and whatnot. its fun if you want to give back to the forests while spending the day running saw in the boonies, i have no idea if it would be applicable to the trail work that ya'll do.

you absolutely -must- do everything by the book to obtain the cert, and in some cases the USFS way of felling is a little over prescriptive, but whatever, they teach a good class and you definitely learn to do things the absolute safest way.

(brush up on your plunge cuts, back straps, and be be prepared to use a lot of wedges, and never the top of your bar, and i hope your chain brake instincts are solid)

subzali
06-09-2012, 09:24 PM
What about if we go as a small group, or alone a week earlier or whatever... There have been multiple times i have come across fallen trees on a trail where some Bozo's have built a new, unwanted bypass around the tree....
I hate seeing that.

But i want to follow any forst service rules, so if the certification allows me to cut them up and re-open up the real trail when not part of such an event (to limit Liability), then it i still worth getting from my perspective...

36 CFR Part 261 Section 6 covers Prohibitions regarding the use of forest timber products.
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=363fc8cb7e63164da8d914e0d150efd7&rgn=div8&view=text&node=36:2.0.1.1.19.1.33.8&idno=36

Specifically,
The following are prohibited:

(a) Cutting or otherwise damaging any timber, tree, or other forest product, except as authorized by a special-use authorization, timber sale contract, or Federal law or regulation.

I think Chris and I are in agreement and it sounds like we've both heard the same story coming from the Clear Creek Ranger District. The Forest Service will not allow volunteers to cut trees, as the FS could be held liable for any accidents. From reading the CFR it looks to me like any cutting (chainsaw or bowsaw, doesn't matter) is technically prohibited unless you have authorization. That may vary depend on the forest you are working in and what kind of relationship you have with the rangers. My personal thought is that the rangers would probably prefer to have a road clear of trees than bypasses created, so if you're cutting a downed tree while out bouncing around in the woods in order to clear the road then I would suspect that wouldn't cause too much of a problem. Your call though.

A lot of people obviously do that, since I just received word that Argentine is pretty much clear at this point, and just back in April when I went up there last there were probably still 15-20 trees blocking the road, which was still 5 or more less than we encountered in December. So someone's been up there cutting and clearing. And it hasn't been the Forest Service, they're still trying to open campgrounds and other established areas.

nakman
06-10-2012, 10:48 PM
From a personal view I will choose to remove an obstruction before going off trail. If someone happens to have a chainsaw and uses it on public land for the betterment of the road all the better IMHO. (Just don't use it and claim volunteer hours with the FS.)
.

That works for me- I would also add if you get hurt don't go crying to the FS... :D

Interested in the class though, schedule pending. :thumb:

SRT08BUS
06-17-2012, 07:33 PM
My boss said she'll pay for the class and will find a way to make it work with my schedule, I'm a go for this.

pramjockey
06-17-2012, 08:55 PM
Very cool. First source was dry - working on second.

I'll let you know what I find out. With the fire season going berserk, the focus has changed a bit for the Forest Service, but we'll see.