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View Full Version : Need some guidance on my 40


bigcity25
10-31-2012, 01:18 PM
Well I thought I would throw this out to get some guidance from you cats. I am planning on switching to a 4 speed in my 40. I have all the necessary parts needed to make the switch. But I am hesitant on pulling the trigger. My 40 is my daily driver and want to make sure this is a weekend project. My "new" transmission hasn't been used for a while. I bought it from a guy here on the forum. He had the same intention until a h55f came his way. Now I totally trust him and know he wouldn't sell me a paper weight. But I don't want to do this and find out after it's installed that it's no good. I'll be mating it to my current 3 speed transfer case. And I have the right bell housing, 4 speed drive shafts, "adapter" gear for inside the t-case, pinion flanges, bearings and seals. I don't have a welder for the current 4wd hi lo shift rod to extend. My garage is pretty small so maybe I need to wait for spring. And I don't have the time/experience under my belt to make sure this is all done correctly. The amaco by my firehouse said they could look at the tranny for free and tell what would need replaced. But that would basically be a visual inspection by tearing it apart. And then reseal it if nothing needs fixed. But the true test wouldn't be until it's married to a engine. Maybe this seems like a babble but I can't figure why I am so gun shy here. And worst case scenario I can ride my bike or RTD to work, it's only 7 miles away. Any thoughts or lessons learned from previous swaps? Or is there any shop recommendations I can take all this stuff to and have them do it? Thanks guys any info is always welcomed. Maybe I just need a little confidence building here.

Corbet
10-31-2012, 03:49 PM
I would not worry too much about the trans condition as long as it did not spend time behind a V8 in its past.

Slee Offroad or Redline could do the work for you if you decide against tackling it yourself.

corsair23
10-31-2012, 03:59 PM
Having the FJ40 as your DD certainly complicates matters...Do you have access to another vehicle just in case? Or maybe a cheap rental for a week from Enterprise.

My suggestion, get in touch with Ricardo and Randy and see if you can talk them into helping out and doing the work at Randy's place. Randy has a lift and both have experience with transmission swaps I believe. I think between you guys it could easily be done over a weekend, maybe even in one day. You might need to bring a tent and camp out over night at Randy's place though if the work carries over to the next day since you won't have a rig to get home in :hill:

A suggestion or idea...Since you have the 4 speed out maybe it would be worth it to just do a rebuild first? That way you know going in that it is 100% fresh and ready to go and with it already being out of the truck, a lot easier :) - rebuild it this winter and then come spring and warmer weather, slap that bugger in.

Air Randy
10-31-2012, 04:09 PM
Be sure and review everything with Ricardo. He already did the 3 to 4 spd conversion on his so he knows exactly what needs to be done and what parts are needed, etc. Plus, he has a new welder and he is chomping at the bit to do things like lengthen the shifter rod :D

This should definitely be a long day or easy weekend job using the hoist & tranny jack. No need for a tent, we have a really big dog house and 2 friendly german shepherds that will share their bed with you :D

nuclearlemon
10-31-2012, 04:34 PM
Keep in mind three speed shaft will be too long and four speed shafts may not bolt up.

RicardoJM
10-31-2012, 04:48 PM
Jeff and I have been in touch/discussions - fact is it may have been my suggestion that he make the move to a 4 speed:D.

I can really empathize with concern about running into issues with a daily driver and then having to get around by bike/bus. Ok - I can't really empathize because I have another vehicle, but I do undestand the concern. Fact is most of the FJ40 owners I know have at one time or another have run into unforseen issues with what otherwise would have been straight forward things that result in an exteneded "down time". Perhaps having a rental lined up just in case would be a good thing to ease the concerns and pull the trigger.

The work is pretty straight forward but there is a bunch to it, however it should fit into a weekend. Having access to the shop takes weather concerns out of the picture. Let's line up a weekend that works and git-er-done. :thumb:

bigcity25
10-31-2012, 07:00 PM
Well I certainly appreciate the advice. The 4 speed came off of a 60 so it will be back at home on a 2f again. And I got all the pinion flanges and 4 speed drive shafts. And in all reality my wife's car can be used if this really goes to hell on the swap. Ricardo maybe we can meet up and go through all my parts to make sure I am not missing anything. And Randy I am no stranger to being in the doghouse. Also my neighbor is a beer and wine rep. so I'll definitely fill your fridge with a quality beverage of your choice. Thanks guys.

RicardoJM
10-31-2012, 08:28 PM
... The 4 speed came off of a 60 ...Ricardo maybe we can meet up and go through all my parts to make sure I am not missing anything. ...

We should get together and take a look at the parts. I believe 60 series 4 speed transmissions have different output spline count which require a split transfer case, i.e. won't connect to your existing t-case and don't have a parking brake. :eek:

bigcity25
10-31-2012, 08:32 PM
I do have the "mating" gear for the tcase with the splines for the 4 speed. And a spacer for the pto gear inside the tcase as well.

nattybumppo
10-31-2012, 11:46 PM
Check your dimensions. The 4 speed tranny from a 60 may be longer than the one for a 40. Even if you were to remove the approximately 3-inch extension the 60 series one has built onto it, I think there is still a small difference in the transmission case lengths. I say this because I have two 4 speed trannys in my garage, one from a 40 and one from a 60. Point being, get under your truck with a tape measure and carefully take measurements to compare to the 60 series tranny you intend to put in. Of course, since you are actually replacing a 3-speed, maybe my observations don't apply to you. Still, a careful taping wouldn't hurt just to be sure!

bigcity25
11-01-2012, 05:25 AM
I'll definitely look at that tomorrow. I know it gets tight as is due to the cross member and parking brake. Thanks

subzali
11-01-2012, 07:35 AM
The 4spd will be longer than the 3spd in any case, whether from a 40 or a 60.

Here's a link from MUD on the parts:
http://www.toepper.net/Landcruiser%20pages/3-speed%20to%204-speed%20conversion.htm

Here's another good article covering transfer cases:
http://www.kinzers.com/don/landcruiser/tcase_tech/

More:
http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/75467-three-speed-case-four-speed-tranny.html#post884223

http://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/609199-h42-visual-distinctions.html

I think the spline count is the same for all trannies intended to mount to F-series engines, but lengths may be different, or diameters in some cases. I'm sure if you search MUD you will find the answers...

nuclearlemon
11-01-2012, 08:27 AM
Well I certainly appreciate the advice. The 4 speed came off of a 60 so it will be back at home on a 2f again. And I got all the pinion flanges and 4 speed drive shafts. .

i know there is a transition gear, datsun bearing and pto spacer shaft when swapping a 3spd tcase to a early 4spd case. i do not think this works with the fj60 cases. also, you would be taking a step backwards by swapping the three speed case behind the 60 trans...the 3spd case has lower gearing, but is a weaker housing.

driveshafts will definitely have to be modified to work. if you do get 3spd case to fj60 trans, you will have a lot of shortening to do. if you go with split case and 60 d/s, you will have to shorten and have the flange on the axle side converted or go to a round course flange drilled custom. or you could swap to newer fine spline gears and use the 60 flange at the pinion or a universal round flange drilled to fit

FJBRADY
11-01-2012, 08:34 AM
I'll definitely fill your fridge with a quality beverage of your choice.

You guys put this together down at Randy's I will be happy to lend a hand.:drink:

MDH33
11-01-2012, 08:50 AM
You guys put this together down at Randy's I will be happy to lend a hand.:drink:

X2 :)

I have a 4 speed and TC sitting in my garage waiting to go in, so I would really like to help out and see it done before tearing into mine.

( I do still need some 4 speed drive shafts though, if anyone has any. )

Air Randy
11-01-2012, 10:20 AM
May be best if he just gets a 4 spd & t-case already assembled and we swap that in. I'll bet Redline has something available like that for sale.

bigcity25
11-01-2012, 11:29 AM
Wow, after reading here and on mud I thought I had all my ducks in a row. Now I am wondering if I bought a bunch of parts that are just gonna turn into paper weights.
What I thought:
Most guys prefer a 3 spd tcase for having a lower gear range
Also a 4 speed was really no different b/w a 60 and 40. I just need that transition gear to marry the tcase and tranny together because of the splines
I knew the "new" combo would be longer and you would need to make sure the parking brake is in good shape. Due to the fact the cross member will be really close to the pbrake drum.
I went ahead and got 4 speed ds so there wouldn't be mixing of 3 and 4 speed shafts. And got 3 pinion flanges 1 for the front output shaft on the tcase 2 for the front and rear diffs. And I also bought a 4 spd parking brake drum to match the ds bolt pattern.

So now do I go the route of finding a 60 tcase or a 40 4 speed? I don't off road much but use 4wd in the snow. If I get the 60 tcase will I need to get rear disc brakes and add a parking brake or can I mod the drums and add a parking brake? I don't care if I lose the vacuum 4wd shifter and get a stick. And either way am I going to need drive shafts modded?

I'll go through the links that Subzali posted and review all that. Insert the guy hitting his head against the wall icon.

And I'll call redline and look around on the classifieds. And pretty sure my engine is out of a 60

RicardoJM
11-01-2012, 12:11 PM
Wow, after reading here and on mud I thought I had all my ducks in a row. Now I am wondering if I bought a bunch of parts that are just gonna turn into paper weights.

Them ducks have a funny way of moving.


What I thought:
Most guys prefer a 3 spd tcase for having a lower gear range

Yeah, it (3 speed tcase) has a lower gear range than a 4 speed case. The guys who lower gearing is really important to often end up with even lower gearing by using an Orion t-case or similar modification.

Also a 4 speed was really no different b/w a 60 and 40. I just need that transition gear to marry the tcase and tranny together because of the splines

There are differences, the most significant one in this case is (to my understanding) you cannot connect a 3 speed case to a 4 speed from a 60 series.


I knew the "new" combo would be longer and you would need to make sure the parking brake is in good shape. Due to the fact the cross member will be really close to the pbrake drum.

This is correct. The cross member being close to the drum occurs because the 4 speed transmission is longer. I rebuilt my parking brake during the swap so I would not have to deal with it (not being able to just drop the tranny & t-case) for a while. That said, someday I'm going to have a parking brake, t-case or transmission issue and when the time comes I'll have to do something; likely make my cross member removable like Jeff Zepp did.

I went ahead and got 4 speed ds so there wouldn't be mixing of 3 and 4 speed shafts. And got 3 pinion flanges 1 for the front output shaft on the tcase 2 for the front and rear diffs. And I also bought a 4 spd parking brake drum to match the ds bolt pattern.

Good move to get 4 speed drive shafts. Great move if they came from an FJ40, of course if they came from an FJ60 the length will need to be changed.

Regarding the flanges and drum - it is good that you have parts where the hole's line up. That said, for the pinion flanges it is important for the splines to match up to your diffs. Older diffs are "coarse spline" and newer diffs are "fine spline".


So now do I go the route of finding a 60 tcase or a 40 4 speed? I don't off road much but use 4wd in the snow. If I get the 60 tcase will I need to get rear disc brakes and add a parking brake or can I mod the drums and add a parking brake? I don't care if I lose the vacuum 4wd shifter and get a stick. And either way am I going to need drive shafts modded?
I would go with finding a 40 4 speed as it is the most straightforward path to the swap given all the other parts you have already accumulated.

The need to modify drive shafts is still an open question. If the shafts came from a 40 series they should not need any length changes. If the shafts came from a 60 series, they will need length changes.

I'll go through the links that Subzali posted and review all that. Insert the guy hitting his head against the wall icon.

And I'll call redline and look around on the classifieds. And pretty sure my engine is out of a 60

Your engine doesn't need to be changed - its the one part of this equation that I'm pretty sure is just fine. :D

subzali
11-01-2012, 12:49 PM
Just another thing to throw in to the mix: a 3spd t-case, while having slightly lower gearing than a 4spd t-case, has straight cut gears vs. helical cut gears, so is louder than the 4spd t-case. Don't know if that matters to you, you're already used to it.

bigcity25
11-01-2012, 02:27 PM
Lets see if these pics help, had these on my phone. I am at the firehouse today so I don't have it right in front on me.

bigcity25
11-01-2012, 02:31 PM
Just another thing to throw in to the mix: a 3spd t-case, while having slightly lower gearing than a 4spd t-case, has straight cut gears vs. helical cut gears, so is louder than the 4spd t-case. Don't know if that matters to you, you're already used to it.

It's not a quiet ride but not terribly loud. Guess I don't know anything otherwise. Hell it's gonna be weird having a extra gear and a floor shifter.

RicardoJM
11-02-2012, 11:08 AM
I saw your post on MUD and it looks like you have an 4 speed from an FJ40:D. Let's find some time to look over all the other parts to see if there are any other "gotchas" and then get on with scheduling a weekend for the swap. :thumb:

subzali
11-02-2012, 12:43 PM
You should probably read this thread too - I know Zepp had to scavenge some parts off of his '76 while in the middle of his conversion, stuff he didn't think of.
http://risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showthread.php?t=1629&highlight=freshen