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View Full Version : Any Orion wizards in here?


MisledYouth
06-02-2013, 01:15 PM
I got my 40 back from Proffitt's in July of last year, and went immediately to Moab afterword. I'm still working overseas so I have to smash all of my fun into 35 days. Anyway, I was having trouble getting my Orion 4/1 to shift, so I rang them up and we got it sorted out. It worked GREAT until I took it out to Moab in early April on another break. Basically, it would gear down when I shifted, but the front drive would not engage. So I tooled around in 2WD the whole time on Hell's and Gold Bar and so on.

I'm not the most mechanically minded individual, and now I'm gone most of the time, so I'm having my brother run around trying to get this thing looked at before I get home around July/August. He's close with the guys at High Country as he's worked for a couple of their buddy shops in the area and I was just going to have him take it there. I figured I'd check here first though before I take it in.

SUMMARY: ORION 4/1 shifts and gears down, but front drive will not engage. Also, there is not much of a noticeable difference between hi and lo range (both are basically lo).

If anyone has any ideas or shop recommendations, I'm all ears. Thanks guys.

GRATUITOUS 2WD PLAY SHOT!!!!
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj589/zacharyfeiler/DSC_6604.jpg (http://s1269.photobucket.com/user/zacharyfeiler/media/DSC_6604.jpg.html)

Corbet
06-02-2013, 02:28 PM
I'm not an Orion guy but I'd take it to Justin at Red Line. That's probably up his alley.

FJBRADY
06-02-2013, 03:34 PM
X2 for Justin at Redline.

cruiseroutfit
06-02-2013, 05:21 PM
There physically isn't a way for either shift action to in fact move but not engage (shift) without something being either bent, broken or missing. I'd suggest that the case be dropped and inspected. At a minimum, pull the top cover and inspect the hi-low shift linkage, fork and sleeve. Also pull the 4WD linkage and inspect the 2-4WD fork, sleeve and shafts. They are extremely straightforward and while there are numerous tricks to make them work better, you should at a minimum be able to see why it isn't shifting. Totally shooting from the hip but I'm suspecting this is an external linkage issue, perhaps as a result of a super tight shift detent on the Orion, possibly bent a linkage or fork?

MisledYouth
06-02-2013, 10:28 PM
Thanks folks. I'll see if they've got time to drop it off at Redline. That was my first choice, but I've been running them all over the place as it is.

Air Randy
06-03-2013, 09:05 AM
Are you using the stock shift linkage? If so, try ordering the twin stick shifter kit. My Orion was horrible to shift and popped out of low range occasionally so I installed the twin stick shifter. Never had another issue with it.

subzali
06-03-2013, 11:26 AM
Is everything hunky dory with your front driveline? No broken birfields, differential, hubs, etc.?

MisledYouth
06-03-2013, 12:53 PM
I do have the twin stick. As far as I know, birfields and diff should be good. I'm not sure about the Aisin hubs. I've never really had a problem with them, and I'm not sure how I would be able to tell. I can turn the driveshaft with my hands when it's in 2wd with the hubs free, and then if I lock the hubs I can no longer turn the driveshaft. The problem was that there was no power going to the front when I was actually in 4 and driving. If I was home right now, I would have no issue just bombing down to Redline, but I have to keep it convenient for the people I'm running around. I'll see if my brother is willing. I'm sure he wouldn't mind checking out the shop too.

MisledYouth
06-03-2013, 12:55 PM
Someday when I'm home more often and had time, I'm going to take some time and absorb all of the mechanical Cruiser knowledge I can.

Rzeppa
06-03-2013, 05:31 PM
Not sure if this helps, but the split case on my 60 wouldn't stay in 4WD, the front drive kept popping out. They put it on the lift at Safari LTD when I stopped in there on the way to Moab and dorked around with the linkage and now it works great. They explained to me that there is just enough play in how the linkage is bolted in that it can keep the collar from engaging the splines in the output shaft.

Before I went there, I had chatted with Jeramiah about it and he suggested that maybe the spring that holds the ball in the shaft detents was worn out and for sure, it didn't have the positive click into and out of front drive like my other cruisers. So I added some preload to the spring by putting a screw in the spring, the head of the screw acts as a spacer. The spring was around .7" before the spacer and about .8" afterwards, and made a noticeable difference in how that detent felt when I shifted into and out of front drive.

nattybumppo
06-03-2013, 06:34 PM
The front diff on my 60 also used to slip out of drive in low range sometimes. A new detent spring from Marlin fixed it right up for $3.

Rzeppa
06-04-2013, 10:39 PM
The front diff on my 60 also used to slip out of drive in low range sometimes. A new detent spring from Marlin fixed it right up for $3.

Did it slip out of Low Range or out of Four Wheel Drive? I have worked on a lot of Land Cruiser and Mini/4Runner Transfer cases and don't recall a spring for Low Range? :confused:

cruiseroutfit
06-05-2013, 11:55 PM
Both High-Low & 2WD-4WD have detent balls & springs:

33250

After having some hi-low shifter issues with the early Orions, Advance Adapters made some changes to the shift system, shift shaft with deeper detents, longer spring, etc. This is available as a retrofit however any Orion made in the last 5? years should already have the upgrades.

MisledYouth
06-06-2013, 12:12 AM
Thanks for the info everyone. Mine was new last year. I have read that it could be a vacuum issue? It gets nice and low, but doesn't turn the fronts. The hubs SEEM to be working, at least last time I was in CO. This would be much easier to deal with if I was home. :banghead:

cruiseroutfit
06-06-2013, 08:12 AM
Your 1979 shouldn't be vacuum operated, you should have full manual engagement on both movements

MisledYouth
06-06-2013, 09:35 AM
Gotcha.

Air Randy
06-06-2013, 10:33 AM
This should be pretty straight forward for your friends to trouble shoot. Have them put it in 4 HI and make sure the hubs are unlocked. Drive it slowly as someone walks next to it and watches the front drive shaft. If the DS turns then the tcase is engaging the front drive. Repeat the same test in 4 LO. If the DS turns the tcase is engaging. Next, put the tcase in 2 HI and lock the hubs, repeat the slow drive by. If the DS turns, assuming you dont have a locked front axle, then both hubs are probably OK. If not, you probably have an issue with one or both hubs.

Just to be clear, you do have the dual stick tcase shifter made by Advanced Adapters specifically for the Orion, correct?

Even with this shifter setup you have to make sure it is properly adjusted. On my Orion it was the last 1/8" of stick movement that engaged the front drive shaft. Make sure the shifter is properly adjusted and that the stick travel is not being limited by the sheet metal of the floorboard or even the rubber of the boot. If so, you may need to open up the size of the hole in the floorboard. I even had to heat up my shifter stick and bend it back slightly to keep the knob from hitting the dash board. Once I did all of these things to mine, it would reliably go in to 4WD, both Hi and Lo, and not pop out.

Rzeppa
06-06-2013, 05:04 PM
I do have the twin stick.

It is abundantly clear that this is a front drive issue, and I can't think of any reason why high/low would affect it, especially with the dual sticks, along with the observation that it shifts into low range and operates in low range.

As Randy said, double check that the hubs are engaging before delving into the transfer case. An alternative method to check this doesn't involve driving or even running the engine. Just jack up the front end and turn a wheel with the hubs locked. If they are engaged the other wheel will turn (opposite if open, same if locked), if not then it is the hub(s).

If the hubs are engaging, then crawl underneath and have an assistant operate the front drive stick and observe the shaft go out and in (out is front drive, in is front disengaged). A lot of times things become obvious when you just look at them.

Air Randy
06-06-2013, 09:37 PM
It is abundantly clear that this is a front drive issue, and I can't think of any reason why high/low would affect it, especially with the dual sticks, along with the observation that it shifts into low range and operates in low range.

As Randy said, double check that the hubs are engaging before delving into the transfer case. An alternative method to check this doesn't involve driving or even running the engine. Just jack up the front end and turn a wheel with the hubs locked. If they are engaged the other wheel will turn (opposite if open, same if locked), if not then it is the hub(s).

If the hubs are engaging, then crawl underneath and have an assistant operate the front drive stick and observe the shaft go out and in (out is front drive, in is front disengaged). A lot of times things become obvious when you just look at them.

I know what he said earlier, but I wanted to be 100% certain about having "twin sticks" to make sure we were all on the same page after the comment about "it could be a vacuum issue" :D

MisledYouth
06-06-2013, 11:00 PM
:wrench: My mechanical knowledge hurts.

The vacuum thing was dumb, I know. It confused me when I kept reading it in different places. :blah: I am positive for realsies that I have the twin stick. That part's hard to mess up. :D

If you ever need advice on how to run your motorcade, small unit tactics, or combat shooting, I've got you covered. Just don't make fun of my mechanical skills. It hurts my feelings. It's also why my company has mechanics instead of letting us window-lickers fix our own vehicles. :hill::beer:

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj589/zacharyfeiler/2012-11-07_16-15-49_57.jpg (http://s1269.photobucket.com/user/zacharyfeiler/media/2012-11-07_16-15-49_57.jpg.html)

FJBRADY
06-07-2013, 07:20 AM
That's a cool picture!

I am like you since I consider myself a driver and not a mechanic, but I knew the Orion was not vacuum actuated. Don't shoot:bolt:

MisledYouth
06-07-2013, 09:43 AM
You're safe. I'd love to boost my knowledge, I'm just never home, and when I am I'd rather spend my time inside the 40 instead of under it. That said, thanks for your help everyone. I'm sure I'll get it sorted. Has the club ever done a "trail fix" clinic? That would be pretty awesome if combined with the smell of meat on a grill.

FJBRADY
06-07-2013, 09:48 AM
I'm sure I'll get it sorted. Has the club ever done a "trail fix" clinic? That would be pretty awesome if combined with the smell of meat on a grill.

Do it all the time on the South side. When I attend a wrenching session, even on my on rig, I fill the room with witty banter and :beer:

Just ask Tom and Randy.:D

MisledYouth
06-07-2013, 10:23 AM
I can't eat witty banter. I also take my :beer: like my FJ40. I don't know anything about it, but I'm ok at drinking...driving...uhhh using it.(?)

Rzeppa
06-07-2013, 11:05 AM
Has the club ever done a "trail fix" clinic?

:lmao: Pretty much every year at Cruise Moab, you get to watch and/or participate in fixing broken birfs, broken pinions, barber poled driveshafts, split transfer cases, cracked frames, broken axles and all kinds of assorted trucknage.

:eek:

Even on "easier" trails you never know what might break and need a trail fix. For example, one year I broke a pinion AND and front diff carrier on Fins & Things, considered one of our easiest trails. Another year Keven Schlagel broke his knuckle studs on Bill Moore Lake, also considered a very "easy" trail.

Go on enough trail runs and sooner or later you'll see something break and see how to fix it enough to at least limp back to camp. That's not to say Land Cruisers are weak - they're not. But if you beat the crap out of them on the rocks, sooner or later something will let go.

That's where running with Rising Sun helps. We never leave anyone stranded, and we have more master mechanics, amateur but competent wrenches, tools and spares than you'll find just about anywhere else.

:risingsun

nattybumppo
06-07-2013, 12:05 PM
Nice hookah!

MisledYouth
06-07-2013, 12:37 PM
It's probably the best example of Iraqi engineering that I've seen. It's pretty awesome. I wanted to bring one back, since you can't find any like it anywhere else, but it's too much work. I like that the hose is threaded into the stem instead of just poking it into a hole. I don't really smoke otherwise, but it's something social over here when you can't have a beer.

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj589/zacharyfeiler/Hookah.jpg (http://s1269.photobucket.com/user/zacharyfeiler/media/Hookah.jpg.html)

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj589/zacharyfeiler/hookah2.jpg (http://s1269.photobucket.com/user/zacharyfeiler/media/hookah2.jpg.html)

Now all I need is someone to fab up a mounting bracket onto my 40 so I can bring it out on the trails. :D

We've gone off topic haven't we?

Air Randy
06-07-2013, 02:41 PM
I don't think they're unique to Iraq, more of a Middle Eastern thing. We used to smoke the same exact style when I was based in Turkey and Egypt. You can buy the same thing in Dubai too. Bring one home, it could add a whole new dimension to the post monthly meeting get togethers :D

MisledYouth
06-07-2013, 03:13 PM
Well no, hookahs aren't unique to Iraq. The guy across the street from the consulate makes these though. :D I'm something of a hookah connoisseur these days. Lots of tips from the locals. I haven't been able to find a hookah this style anywhere, including Dubai or Turkey. VERY heavy duty, even if they did thread a few things crooked. The thing weighs like 20lbs without the base. I have a Syrian one at home, but it's not as cool.

Air Randy
06-07-2013, 08:36 PM
Sort of like comparing an old 40 to a new FJC eh? The old one is cobbled together from spare parts but very heavy duty and works great :thumb:

MisledYouth
06-07-2013, 10:58 PM
That was a smooth transition back to the topic at hand. :thumb: :D You guys really know what you're doing over here. :cheers: Once again, thanks for all of the replies. I'll get the 40 sorted and see you in the hills in a couple of months.