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PabloCruise
06-12-2013, 02:56 PM
This is a philosophical pondering, so probably equal parts tech and chat – likely to be long-winded…

As I move at a sloth’s pace toward getting my Cruisers back on the road, I have been contemplating what to do with the various third members and axle housings I have sitting around. I am thinking about what would be best for each Cruiser, and how to accomplish any moves in the least amount of effort and downtime. Also, given how long it takes me to complete projects on my Cruisers, it is likely that the ideas posted in this thread will not translate into action any time soon…

I have 2 Cruisers:

’78 40 w/ lift (4 inch) and 33x12.5 MTs. Not a crazy rig, but not bad either. I damaged the original rear 3rd member trying to reseal a leaking pinion flange that had spun the shims. So I have an extra 3rd in the rear now with an Aussie auto-locker in the rear. Front axle is stock for ’78 with the long birfs and long body ASCO (Aisin) lock-outs.
’74 55 on stock springs. This will be a little milder than the 40, likely to be a weekend Cruiser up the canyon with the family, pull the pop-up and drive-in movie duty. Rear axle stock. When I got this Pig we pulled the front stock axle w/ drum brakes and swapped in a front axle from a ’76 Pig (FJBen’s if people still remember him), so it has discs and ARB locker plus Aqualu passenger side steering arm for higher relay rod mount. Has the long birfs for ’76-’78 and Warn lock-outs.


I have extra parts:

Rear 3rd from my ’78 – needs service/rebuilding,
Front axle housing (complete) from the ’74 Pig with the drum brakes,
60 series knuckles and discs
Short-body lock-outs (Aisin) to go with
Short birfs
Long-body ASCO lock-outs (spare set)


So I am thinking it would make sense to get the ARB into the front of the 40, and use it, as I am not likely to need it in the front of the Pig. Do I put the 60 series knuckles on the front of the 40 as well?

Would it be easiest/most convenient to build the front housing off the Pig w/ the 60 series knuckles and transplant to the 40? If I do that I have to pull apart the front axle on the Pig to extract the ARB to move to the 40.

Or I could rebuild the front housing that was originally on the Pig with the 60 series knuckles/birfs/discs and lock-outs and just drop the front axle out of the Pig when I have the spare housing built and ready to swap.

I also wonder about trying to rotate one, or both, of the front 3rds to the rear since they probably have so few miles (under power) on them vs. the rears.

I do not know enough about the differences between ’74, ’76 and ’78 front brake line routing to know how much of a hassle it would be to move the front housings around between vehicles vs. swapping 3rds and knuckles.

IIRC, there is a blue-ish colored gear oil in the housing with the ARB. Is this correct for ARB? Where do I get more?

What would you do? Again, at this point this is a mental exercise to simply arrive at the best combo of components for the individual vehicle with the fewest steps, and minimal amount of down-time.

Thanks for entertaining all my rambling thoughts!

subzali
06-13-2013, 08:59 AM
I would put the ARB and 60 series knuckles on the 40.

The way I would do it is to pull the Pig axle apart and pull the diff out. Pull the 40 axle apart and pull that diff out. Swap diffs. Put Pig back together. Then do the 60 series parts swap on the 40 as you reassemble the axle.

Leave the '74 axle out of the picture and leave the questionable 3rd out of the picture. Unless you want to go through the fun exercise of rebuilding the 3rd beforehand, so you know it's good. Then you could swap that into the Pig and maybe not have too many irons in the fire at once. I would still leave the spare axle housing out of the picture though.

PabloCruise
06-13-2013, 11:26 AM
I would put the ARB and 60 series knuckles on the 40.

The way I would do it is to pull the Pig axle apart and pull the diff out. Pull the 40 axle apart and pull that diff out. Swap diffs. Put Pig back together. Then do the 60 series parts swap on the 40 as you reassemble the axle.

Leave the '74 axle out of the picture and leave the questionable 3rd out of the picture. Unless you want to go through the fun exercise of rebuilding the 3rd beforehand, so you know it's good. Then you could swap that into the Pig and maybe not have too many irons in the fire at once. I would still leave the spare axle housing out of the picture though.

Thanks Matt. So in this scenario, the Pig is down until I get the front 3rd out of the 40 and stab it in the Pig. I would have the Pig up w/ the front housing torn apart as well as the 40. The :Princess: might wonder if I know what I am doing at that point (not that she does not wonder that already...). Currently I only have one heavy set of jack stands.

As I am typing this, I started wondering about taking apart the '74 housing, and setting it up for the 60 knuckles. I could do this w/o affecting either vehicle. I could go through the fun of centering the knuckles and grinding the housing, and possibly changing the brake lines for the '78. That way I could have the front third out of the '74 housing ready to go back in the Pig as soon as the ARB is extracted from the Pig. Pig goes back together w/ its original front 3rd and a fresh birf service. Then I could stab the ARB in the '74 housing and have it ready to go. I could drop the front shackles on the 40 and roll the old axle out, roll the new and roll the fresh '74 front axle w/ ARB and 60 series knuckles in. New front bushings and away we go!

Now that I have typed all that out, I am thinking about how the 60 series steering arms will play with my front TREs... :banghead:

subzali
06-13-2013, 11:58 AM
Does the spare axle housing have a good 3rd in it? I didn't catch that part. What you just described would probably be the least down time for any vehicle. You'll need to figure the brake line stuff though.

60 series arms makes everything easier with your current 60 setup. You just buy a set of 60 tres and if you have 70 series drag links/tie rods/relay rods or whatever you want to call them, it all bolts up

subzali
06-13-2013, 11:59 AM
Or get custom ones made to fit the 60 series ends

PabloCruise
06-13-2013, 02:25 PM
I have the 70 series relay rod - by that I mean the rod from pitman arm to pass side TRE, but my tie rod on the 40 (rod from pass side steering arm to driver side steering arm) is from the 40. Pretty sure that is smaller diameter than the 60 series stuff.

I have hear of people running inserts or bushings to use 40 series TRE in a 60 series arm, but not convinced I like that approach...

PabloCruise
06-13-2013, 02:26 PM
Yes, the front housing I pulled off the Pig is complete with "good" (as far as I know) 3rd.

Rzeppa
06-13-2013, 10:35 PM
I have read and re-read the initial post now a couple times.

What is the problem needing advice for a solution?

PabloCruise
06-14-2013, 02:12 PM
Just wondering what you would do if you had the above mentioned vehicles and spare components, and how would you make the changes (if any) in the least amount of moves.

Sort of a Cruiser chess game if you will...

Rzeppa
06-14-2013, 09:14 PM
Just wondering what you would do if you had the above mentioned vehicles and spare components, and how would you make the changes (if any) in the least amount of moves.

Sort of a Cruiser chess game if you will...

Okay. In that case, I would just drive 'em until something broke or wore out. :cheers:

PabloCruise
06-17-2013, 11:55 AM
Okay. In that case, I would just drive 'em until something broke or wore out. :cheers:

Well that would be the fewest moves!

The knuckles on the Pig are weeping, and I do wonder if Ben (or whomever) centered the passenger side knuckle when he installed the Aqualu steering arm.

When I pull the spare '74 housing apart I should be able to put those steering arms on the '76 knuckles w/o issue, correct?

Anyone know what that blue-ish color gear oil in the front might be? I am guessing some kind of synthetic.
It does not look like ARB is too particular about gear oil, as long as it does not have additives for LSD in it (Mobil1): http://arbusa.wordpress.com/frequently-asked-questions/air-locker/
I figure it has been in there since Ben rolled his Pig, and it will have to get drained anyway when I pull the ARB out...

Anoyone have a favorite oil for ARB?

When I do put the original front 3rd back in Pig, that will be a good time to put the long-body ASCO lockouts on.

PabloCruise
06-17-2013, 11:57 AM
PS: I read someone recommend 60 series (or was it 62 series?) axle breathers as they are better at not letting out a bunch of gear oil all over the rear housing.

Can anyone verify these are better?

SteveH
06-17-2013, 02:58 PM
Pry the floating steel cap off the (ahem) 'breather' and install a piece of 3/8" fuel line and a hose clamp. You can buy the barbed fitting and screw that in, if you want to to extra fancy.

IMO, there is no 'good' Toyota axle breather - they eventually will clog and cause axle or transfer case leaks.

PabloCruise
06-17-2013, 04:28 PM
Thanks Steve! I have heard this option as well.
Do you top the 3/8" hose with anything?

Rzeppa
06-18-2013, 07:00 PM
Pry the floating steel cap off the (ahem) 'breather' and install a piece of 3/8" fuel line and a hose clamp. You can buy the barbed fitting and screw that in, if you want to to extra fancy.

IMO, there is no 'good' Toyota axle breather - they eventually will clog and cause axle or transfer case leaks.

Good to see you post Steve! Thread hijack: I have certainly been thinking about you and your family down there in Black Forest!

SteveH
06-19-2013, 09:57 AM
Thanks Jeff - the nat'l gas was turned on yesterday and we have been nightly seeing and thanking the firefighters as during their shift change as they go past our house and a nearby school.

TJ - put a small lawnmower fuel filter (sold at small engine shops or Advance Auto) on the end of the line to keep casual dirt and water out. Extend the hose up to firewall height. You can pay $6.99 for those cheapie fuel filters if you just grab the first one, but if you look hard enough, you can find them for a lot less. Sometimes, motorcycle shops have them for $1 each on a card by the checkout - if you see that deal, buy a small handful for all your axle/xfer case vents.

PabloCruise
06-19-2013, 12:29 PM
Awesome - thanks Steve!

Also glad to hear things are going okay for you down there...

PabloCruise
06-19-2013, 02:56 PM
At this point Matt may be the only one interested, but I was thinking more about putting the 60 knuckles on the 40... I got wondering if the 70 series relay rod that I found will still fit correctly with the 60 knuckles and TREs.
This was the relay rod that made the 60 series PS complete on my 40. That would be a bummer to have to drop that.

PabloCruise
07-25-2013, 05:15 PM
According to Wayne up in Canada, the 70 series tie rod is perfect for a 40/55 housing w/ 60 knuckles:

Now I found some info in a thread over in the 55 section that included info about using 70 series rods when you put 60 knuckles on a 40/55 axle housing.

The thread:
http://forum.ih8mud.com/fj55-iron-pi...-build-25.html
The posts:


Quote:
Originally Posted by crushers
40.55. 70 all share the same cross link measurement
sadly, the earlier 40/55 uses smaller ties than the later version.
you could swap a later 40 series front diff in (1981 and newer) and then the arms off the 70 series and you will have a bolt up cross link.
if you do that then you can add 60 series PS and you will now have the drag link from the 70 series that is the proper length and HD upper arms.
you can get brand new cross and drag links C?W ties from Toyota, this is what i did on the 42 for PS upgrade.
this way the only mods to the steering is the connecting from the steering box to the steering wheel.
just a suggestion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crushers
if you use 60 or 70 series knuckles then you can just order the 70 series cross links with ties and be done with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crushers
yes, you can buy the complete cross links with ends from Toyota.
part numbers:
45460A ROD ASSY, TIE
45460-69125 1 $412.69
45450 ROD ASSY, STEERING RELAY
45450-69075 1 $371.69

i didn't pay near that much for these ones ... sure is nice working with brand new parts that actually fit the first time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crushers
well, as discussed in the email, the cross link part number
45460A ROD ASSY, TIE
45460-69135 1 $412.69
has the ends included and will work from arm to arm.
the other part number i posted comes with the ends but is too long ... i think ... for your application. it is for the 60 PS box, now, IF you can give me a measurement of the existing arm to crosslink hole then i can go measure what i have in the garage ...
in the pic you can also see the difference in strength between the 70 series arms and the 40/55 series ...
this is a 42 series axle.
hopes this helps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crushers
okay
part number 45460-69135 tube is 42" with center of end at 48" with +/- 1" play
part number 45450-69085 tube is 30 1/4"" with center of end at 38" with +/- 1" play
so unless you go with 60 PS box, this relay rod won't work in your application.
hope this helps

PabloCruise
10-21-2013, 05:53 PM
Thanks Matt. So in this scenario, the Pig is down until I get the front 3rd out of the 40 and stab it in the Pig. I would have the Pig up w/ the front housing torn apart as well as the 40. The :Princess: might wonder if I know what I am doing at that point (not that she does not wonder that already...). Currently I only have one heavy set of jack stands.

As I am typing this, I started wondering about taking apart the '74 housing, and setting it up for the 60 knuckles. I could do this w/o affecting either vehicle. I could go through the fun of centering the knuckles and grinding the housing, and possibly changing the brake lines for the '78. That way I could have the front third out of the '74 housing ready to go back in the Pig as soon as the ARB is extracted from the Pig. Pig goes back together w/ its original front 3rd and a fresh birf service. Then I could stab the ARB in the '74 housing and have it ready to go. I could drop the front shackles on the 40 and roll the old axle out, roll the new and roll the fresh '74 front axle w/ ARB and 60 series knuckles in. New front bushings and away we go!

Now that I have typed all that out, I am thinking about how the 60 series steering arms will play with my front TREs... :banghead:

Thinking about this again, might be a good winter project.
This plan would mean that I would build the '74 housing for the 60 knuckles to ultimately go under the '78 40.
I would rebuild the '76 housing on the Pig.
The housing from the '78 40 would end up as a spare.

PabloCruise
03-27-2014, 06:10 PM
I would put the ARB and 60 series knuckles on the 40.

The way I would do it is to pull the Pig axle apart and pull the diff out. Pull the 40 axle apart and pull that diff out. Swap diffs. Put Pig back together. Then do the 60 series parts swap on the 40 as you reassemble the axle.

Leave the '74 axle out of the picture and leave the questionable 3rd out of the picture. Unless you want to go through the fun exercise of rebuilding the 3rd beforehand, so you know it's good. Then you could swap that into the Pig and maybe not have too many irons in the fire at once. I would still leave the spare axle housing out of the picture though.

If I went down this path, could I put the discs from the '76 Pig onto my '74 housing? Could I use the '74 knuckles and steering arms?

Rzeppa
03-27-2014, 08:50 PM
If I went down this path, could I put the discs from the '76 Pig onto my '74 housing? Could I use the '74 knuckles and steering arms?

Only with a properly functioning replica glove compartment handle :D

PabloCruise
03-28-2014, 10:02 AM
Only with a properly functioning replica glove compartment handle :D

Ah... I hope I am well on the path to sourcing said replica!!! :)

PabloCruise
03-28-2014, 12:55 PM
If I went down this path, could I put the discs from the '76 Pig onto my '74 housing? Could I use the '74 knuckles and steering arms?

'74 knuckles have a smaller bolt pattern than '76 and '78, yes?

subzali
03-28-2014, 01:36 PM
If I went down this path, could I put the discs from the '76 Pig onto my '74 housing? Could I use the '74 knuckles and steering arms?


The steering arms are the same. Obviously the 74 knuckle is designed to bolt to a drum backing plate and 76-78 knuckles are designed to bolt to disc backing plates. SOR shows them as different part numbers so they might not be compatible. The spindles are the same though, so some parts interchange

PabloCruise
03-28-2014, 05:13 PM
The steering arms are the same. Obviously the 74 knuckle is designed to bolt to a drum backing plate and 76-78 knuckles are designed to bolt to disc backing plates. SOR shows them as different part numbers so they might not be compatible. The spindles are the same though, so some parts interchange

Ah, thanks Matt.

I was thinking about this further (easier than actually :wrench: :) ) and thinking about getting the '74 axle housing back under the Pig and keep the '78 front housing under the 40... I think it would take a few more steps though.

nuclearlemon
03-28-2014, 05:46 PM
small pattern arms are one bolt pattern, large pattern arms (79 and newer) are a different bolt pattern. drum vs disc doesn't appear to make a difference in bolt pattern or arm

Rzeppa
03-29-2014, 12:35 AM
'74 knuckles have a smaller bolt pattern than '76 and '78, yes?

No, the larger bolt pattern started in '79 (what Ige said)

PabloCruise
04-03-2014, 02:37 PM
That makes sense, I see the knuckle housings organized by '63 to 9/75, 9/75 to '78 for disc brakes, and then 1/79 to 1/90.

The steering arms go from '58 to 12/78.

So between the 3 front axles (2 disc, 1 drum) plus the extra set of 60 knuckle housings and arms, I should have everything to make 3 disc front axles.

Rzeppa
04-03-2014, 08:25 PM
The thing that makes the pre-disk front end unique is the smaller spindles and matching knuckles. The steering arm bolt pattern (and lower knuckle bearing retainer) was the same, just the stuff you bolt on from the side is smaller.

PabloCruise
04-19-2014, 09:08 AM
I just finished reading about AimCO's thread about an ARB not working, and it got me thinking. I got the disc brake front axle w/ ARB that is under the Pig from FJBen when he flopped his Pig in Walden at the photo shoot for the FJ Cruiser prototype. I don't remember exactly when that was, but it was before we got pregnant w/ Cash, so I want to think it was ~2005?

My point is that I have not cycled that ARB since I got it. My main concern was getting the Pig up and running. Now that I have that mostly taken care of, what should I do to the ARB when I shuffle all the axles and thirds around?

I'm sure someone has a good ARB rebuild thread out there, I am just puttering around on the phone this morning...

Thanks y'all!

Rzeppa
04-20-2014, 12:34 AM
Every ARB issue I have first hand eyeball knowledge of (lots) has been something to do with air.

Yes, that was February 2005 - I set that up when the PR company called me. Got Robbie the job as one of the first Trail Team members.

PabloCruise
04-20-2014, 03:38 PM
Every ARB issue I have first hand eyeball knowledge of (lots) has been something to do with air. Yes, that was February 2005 - I set that up when the PR company called me. Got Robbie the job as one of the first Trail Team members.

Feb of '05, that sucker has been inactive for 9 years!

PabloCruise
04-23-2014, 06:02 PM
Still thinking about this... At first I thought I would put the 60 knuckles and brakes under the 40, along w/ the ARB, but I am thinking that the Pig is defintely heavier than the 40 and might benefit from having the 60 brakes instead, plus the steering arms from a 60 are probably more appropriate for a 55 (thinking back to that article in the TT about Ackerman Angle from a few years back).

Thoughts?

subzali
04-23-2014, 09:42 PM
Aren't the steering arms the same on 60s, late 40s and mini trucks?

PabloCruise
04-25-2014, 10:33 AM
Aren't the steering arms the same on 60s, late 40s and mini trucks?

Not sure, I just thought those 60 arms may be a better match for the Pig vs. Being on the 40...

subzali
04-25-2014, 10:59 AM
So look at it this way. Take a 1974 pig and a 1974 FJ40. The steering arms are interchangeable (I believe, but I'm not a pig guru). So Toyota didn't see a need to have differing Ackerman angles from the factory. Toyota also used the same brakes for 40s and 55s throughout their respective production runs.

At the end of the day with 33" tires on your 40 I doubt there is really much risk of breaking anything and really benefitting from the "larger" 60 series brakes, steering arms and Aisin lockouts vs. your Warns. In that case the easiest thing to do is leave things the way they are, maybe swap the ARB if you feel the 40 is going to see trails that would need a front locker.

On the other hand, I've been thinking about a good way of servicing the 60 series power steering components down the road on my own rig, and am pretty well convinced that the easiest/best thing for future maintenance will be to swap in 60 series knuckles and arms and get a new steering relay rod and all new 60 series TREs. That way I can buy a full set of 60 series TREs/rebuild kit and be done with it. Currently I would have to buy a 60/70 series TRE rebuild kit (and only use half of it) and three 40 series TREs (if I remember right and my memory is already getting fuzzy on this topic) if and when I ever have to replace the TREs on my rig. So in that instance maybe you really want 60 series components on BOTH rigs.

subzali
04-25-2014, 03:24 PM
Still thinking about this... At first I thought I would put the 60 knuckles and brakes under the 40, along w/ the ARB, but I am thinking that the Pig is defintely heavier than the 40 and might benefit from having the 60 brakes instead, plus the steering arms from a 60 are probably more appropriate for a 55 (thinking back to that article in the TT about Ackerman Angle from a few years back).

Thoughts?

Another couple of thoughts in addition to my post above:
-I have heard of a V6 caliper swap that can be done for increased stopping power. I would have to research to see if that applies to 40s as well as 60s or if there was a year cutoff or what.

-I know at some point the front axle design details changed, specifically I am thinking about what Mark Algazy mentioned years ago at Cruise Moab how earlier axle housings had the welds ground down and later axle housings Toyota stopped doing that and the result was a stronger axle housing. All of this has me thinking that you should avoid putting the 74 axle under the 78 40, though I imagine both axles are the same design by that point. But maybe not. I can't remember what the "early" vs. "late" cutoff was in the Mark A. discussion, but we were busy trying to repair his '64 LWB pickup's front axle that had suffered a cracked housing due to the afore-mentioned ground-down welds. Luckily Kurt was there with his trailer so Mark's LWB could be towed to Moab and repaired with a real welder instead of the daisy-chain battery affair we took a shot with which promptly cracked as soon as it was let back down to the ground.

DanS
04-25-2014, 08:10 PM
Another couple of thoughts in addition to my post above:
-I have heard of a V6 caliper swap that can be done for increased stopping power. I would have to research to see if that applies to 40s as well as 60s or if there was a year cutoff or what.


Applies to FJ-40, 55, 60, 70 series cruisers with leaf springs, and solid axle mini trucks.

As long as you've got disc brake knuckles, you can upgrade to the V6 IFS calipers. All it takes is a little trimming of the backing plate, and maybe some grinding on the fins of the caliper to clear stock wheels (if you've got them).

Super easy, I can't tell much of a difference, but the V6 IFS calipers are still available from Toyota, and I would expect those to remain in production for quite some time at reasonable rates.

Works so well that I just trim the backing plates any time I have them off, because whenever I rebuild a front axle I try to make the swap, and even if I don't, I will soon enough.

Dan

PabloCruise
04-27-2014, 10:23 AM
Applies to FJ-40, 55, 60, 70 series cruisers with leaf springs, and solid axle mini trucks. As long as you've got disc brake knuckles, you can upgrade to the V6 IFS calipers. All it takes is a little trimming of the backing plate, and maybe some grinding on the fins of the caliper to clear stock wheels (if you've got them). Super easy, I can't tell much of a difference, but the V6 IFS calipers are still available from Toyota, and I would expect those to remain in production for quite some time at reasonable rates. Works so well that I just trim the backing plates any time I have them off, because whenever I rebuild a front axle I try to make the swap, and even if I don't, I will soon enough. Dan

Are these calipers from a V6 IFS 4Runner? What year do you buy when you do this mod?

PabloCruise
08-13-2014, 01:55 PM
Back to this topic again...

I had some thoughts about the housing that was under the Pig and remembered that in order to finish the 60 series PS, we put on the F-250 shock towers, which also meant that we had to center the shock mounts on the housing. So the housing under the Pig will stay put, making for fewer iterations to consider.

That means I could build the spare housing from the '74 55 to stab under the 40, but Matt's comments about weld quality of the years is interesting.

Still wondering what year V6 IFS calipers to source? What was the original donor vehicle?

If swapping calipers, I should make sure I have an appropriate master cylinder. I am still running the '74 master on the Pig, which was originally 4 wheel drum. I pulled the front proportioning valve, but the pedal still feels heavier than the disc/drum master on my '78. I think you are supposed to get a smaller bore master for disc/drum? Is a pre-ABS 80 series master still a good pick for this?