PDA

View Full Version : Quadruple bypass? 7/24/13


Rzeppa
07-24-2013, 08:02 PM
Okay, so we went over Loveland Pass to get to the trailhead, we went over Georgia Pass while on the trail, and then went over Kenosha Pass to get home. Somewhere in there we must have gone over another pass between Loveland and Georgia Pass. Anyway, Dan and I had an awesome time!

Rzeppa
07-24-2013, 08:04 PM
The 100 guys never showed up so it was just Dan and I. He was in his 3rd gen runner and I was in Alice the FJ60. I took a lot of pictures out the windshield and window because we didn't stop much. Trailhead to trailhead was over 30 miles, but we made good time just being the two of us.

Rzeppa
07-24-2013, 08:07 PM
This is the approach to Radical Hill. There is a fork at the base where you can go left up Webster Pass, or right up the much steeper Radical Hill, which was the route we went.

Rzeppa
07-24-2013, 08:10 PM
Even though these are your basic Forest Service trails, there were still a few technical sections. Dan has no sliders on this rig and had to do some deft maneuvering to avoid any body damage.

Rzeppa
07-24-2013, 08:17 PM
Radical Hill itself isn't that technical, but like so many of our trails above timberline it is strewn with salad-bowl sized rocks, has some steep sections, and certainly some pucker-factor for those worried about rolling down the hillside into the valley. In these pictures you can see the abandoned mines and mine structures. I have so much respect for those sourdoughs who hauled all that stuff up there with mules and survived the harsh climate up there.

Rzeppa
07-24-2013, 08:20 PM
The final climb up Radical Hill has some serious pucker factor. I got some serious pucker when I got vapor lock about 2/3 the way up that last hill. Let's just say I was really glad I knew what it was, who to blame (US Congress and the ethanol mandate) and we were just patient, waited 15 minutes to cool down and then get the rest of the way up the hill where my gas tank wasn't so dang far below my fuel pump.

Rzeppa
07-24-2013, 08:23 PM
We saw a bunch of mountain goats up there with their kids playing in the snow field across from us. I didn't have the right lens on to get them and we were dealing with my vapor lock. But here's some goat fur. Soup anyone? (yes dating myself with that reference)

Rzeppa
07-24-2013, 08:25 PM
Poseur shots at the top of Radical Hill.

Rzeppa
07-24-2013, 08:27 PM
Money shot: Lightning struck at the very moment I pressed the shutter release. Way cool!

Rzeppa
07-24-2013, 08:34 PM
It rained a good bit while we were up on top, but it made it look kinda cool.

Rzeppa
07-24-2013, 08:36 PM
Dan asked if anyone was home?

Rzeppa
07-24-2013, 10:22 PM
The views up there were stunning, but you've all seen them so I won't bore you too much.

Rzeppa
07-24-2013, 10:23 PM
This was going to be our way home, over Georgia Pass, as viewed through the telephoto lens from miles and miles away.

Rzeppa
07-24-2013, 10:26 PM
The old, decaying mine structures are always interesting.

Rzeppa
07-24-2013, 10:27 PM
Dan smiles as he makes his way down the North Fork of the Swan River.

Rzeppa
07-24-2013, 10:29 PM
Pretty little waterfall on the way down.

Rzeppa
07-24-2013, 10:54 PM
Georgia Pass - 12 miles from Jefferson and our way home. In all we did 30 miles trailhead to trailhead, and I clocked about 120 miles round trip total. What a wonderful day!

Caribou Sandstorm
07-24-2013, 11:05 PM
Your 60 looks super cool!

Squishy!
07-25-2013, 07:40 AM
Man oh man am I jealous of these trips! I swear I need to get crackin on my blue truck so I can join these expeditions!

AxleIke
07-25-2013, 08:52 AM
Awesome!

subzali
07-25-2013, 08:53 AM
I agree, your 60 is lookin' good Jeff! And nice trip, I've always wanted to do that Swan connection.

MountainGoat
07-25-2013, 09:10 AM
Another great day on the trail! Thanks for coming along Jeff, I had a blast. I was impressed with the stock 4Runner - these trucks just love the dirt. It's really cool adjusting my driving style for an IFS rig after wheeling in a built 80 series.

My camera was dead so all I got were some cell phone pics. :( They didn't come out too badly though.

Jeff on Radical Hill
http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/mountaingoat/2013/Radical/IMG_0432r.jpg

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/mountaingoat/2013/Radical/IMG_0435r.jpg

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/mountaingoat/2013/Radical/IMG_0439r.jpg

As I was walking down to get pictures of Jeff coming up, I thought I heard his starter cranking. I couldn't be sure because of the wind. I spotted his truck and it wasn't moving. I thought, "don't get out, don't get out", but he did. Then I thought, "don't open the hood, just don't open the hood", but he did. Damn. Glad it was just vapor lock because my little 4Runner would have had a struggle getting his truck up the steep loose hill.
http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/mountaingoat/2013/Radical/IMG_0440r.jpg

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/mountaingoat/2013/Radical/IMG_0442r.jpg

Once his truck cooled down and we got up top the adrenaline began to subside so we could enjoy the views.

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/mountaingoat/2013/Radical/IMG_0437r.jpg

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/mountaingoat/2013/Radical/IMG_0438r.jpg

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/mountaingoat/2013/Radical/IMG_0441r.jpg

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/mountaingoat/2013/Radical/IMG_0443r.jpg

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/mountaingoat/2013/Radical/IMG_0448r.jpg

We made it to the cabin on Wise Mountain in the drizzle and had lunch inside. After we ate, it let up a bit and the views were beautiful as usual.

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/mountaingoat/2013/Radical/IMG_0450r.jpg

http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/uploads/mountaingoat/2013/Radical/IMG_0451r.jpg

It was a long day, but so worth it. Tired but still grinning. :D

Jacket
07-25-2013, 11:19 AM
Good stuff guys. Looks kinda cloudy and cool.

bh4rnnr
07-26-2013, 07:42 AM
Looks like a great day:thumb:. Thanks for the picks.

Man I need to get out....

nakman
07-26-2013, 01:31 PM
Wow, sweet write-up! thanks guys, good to see you getting out so much.

Rzeppa
07-26-2013, 05:21 PM
I am still curious what the name of whatever pass put us back into the Atlantic drainage - when we went over Loveland pass we went into the Pacific drainage, and when we went over Georgia pass we went into the Pacific drainage again, so somewhere in there we crossed back into the Atlantic. Dan, you had the maps, do you know what it might have been?

MountainGoat
07-26-2013, 05:49 PM
I am still curious what the name of whatever pass put us back into the Atlantic drainage - when we went over Loveland pass we went into the Pacific drainage, and when we went over Georgia pass we went into the Pacific drainage again, so somewhere in there we crossed back into the Atlantic. Dan, you had the maps, do you know what it might have been?

http://risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/attachment.php?attachmentid=33948&stc=1&d=1374724420

In relation to this picture we were traveling right to left over Georgia pass. We really only crossed the divide twice: Loveland and Georgia. :D Webster Pass crosses the divide, which seems kind of weird because the top of Radical Hill is so much higher, looking down on Webster. But the divide does what it wants. Case in point: the giant mountain in the background of the picture above. :hill:

Of course, Kenosha "Pass" is not on the divide. I suspect the miners back in the day had a "pass" name for the Swan River trails we were on up top. I did a little websearch and found pretty much nothing.

treerootCO
07-26-2013, 05:50 PM
Swan River
http://www.traildamage.com/trails/swan_river/maps/map_big.gif
Deer Creek
http://www.traildamage.com/trails/deer_creek/maps/map_big.gif
Saints John
http://www.traildamage.com/trails/saints_john/maps/map_big.gif

Rzeppa
07-26-2013, 06:06 PM
Of course, Kenosha "Pass" is not on the divide. I suspect the miners back in the day had a "pass" name for the Swan River trails we were on up top. I did a little websearch and found pretty much nothing.

Oh okay, I just assumed that Kenosha was on the divide. Thanks! :thumb: I still think we must have done 4 passes - like you wrote, probably west of Webster pass, at the top of the Swan River headwaters where we saw those mountain goats. I did spend some quality time with google maps and retraced our route, including that little spur we went off of 355 :eek:

JadeRunner
07-27-2013, 11:45 AM
Nice trip ad write up. Dan's not afraid to wheel that stock 3rd gen.:)

I got vapor lock about 2/3 the way up that last hill.

Jeff, help me understand this. It could have been dangerous for a novice in a large group on that hill. I have seen this before on older rigs and always thought it was a carb setup issue or maintenance issue causing that problem. Some older rigs don't have that issue on high altitude hills. I know that you have a properly built carb and maintain your stuff. So just help me understand what else you could do to prevent this in the future.

Rzeppa
07-27-2013, 04:13 PM
Nice trip ad write up. Dan's not afraid to wheel that stock 3rd gen.:)



Jeff, help me understand this. It could have been dangerous for a novice in a large group on that hill. I have seen this before on older rigs and always thought it was a carb setup issue or maintenance issue causing that problem. Some older rigs don't have that issue on high altitude hills. I know that you have a properly built carb and maintain your stuff. So just help me understand what else you could do to prevent this in the future.

Use actual gasoline that doesn't have ethanol in it so it has a lower vapor pressure, or maybe some additive as has been suggested, which would lower the vapor pressure of the fuel. The other thing that could be done is to install an electric pusher fuel pump back at the fuel tank. That would increase the ambient pressure in the fuel line.

You see, mechanical fuel pumps are located on the engine, which is convenient from a mechanical engineering point of view.

But they have two disadvantages in these particular situations. One is that they get hot because of being attached to the block instead of being immersed in cool fuel inside the fuel tank as is found in newer fuel injected vehicles. The huge disadvantage of the latter arrangement is that it is usually a huge PITA to replace a faulty pump inside the tank, and on many vehicles the tank must be drained and removed from the vehicle to get at the access port on the top.

The other is that they must use suction (AKA vacuum or negative pressure) to pull fuel from the tank, and a good bit of it when on a steep incline. The definition of boiling in chemistry is when the vapor pressure of the liquid equals or exceeds the ambient pressure. When using negative pressure (vacuum) to pull fuel from the tank, we have just lowered the ambient pressure and thus lowered the boiling point of the liquid. The liquid turns to gas (not gasoline, but gaseous state) and the fuel pump cavitates and is pretty ineffective at pumping. "Vapor Lock" is an incorrect term but is widely understood - it isn't really locked, it is just that we don't have liquid fuel to pump.

60s are more prone to this than 40s partly because the tank is lower relative to the pump, and farther back, which causes issues when on a steep incline like this. Once I was on level ground at the top I had no issues whatsoever. I didn't have any further problems later during the day because we didn't have any uphills that were as long as Radical Hill was. And it was cooler outside, which helps a bit.

It was reassuring to know what was going on so as not to worry or waste battery trying in vain to crank it over. I started pulling the fuel line downstream from the pump to verify my suspicions, but stopped when it wasn't super easy, and we were pretty confident we knew what the problem was and what the remedy was. In a situation like this, the mantra is "Patience Padiwan". :thumb:

nattybumppo
07-27-2013, 10:20 PM
Jeff, when I had vapor lock issues on Argentine Pass with my 40, Justin from Redline suggested installing an electric in-line fuel pump before the manual pump. He said the manual pump would then act as a regulator, keeping the fuel line pressure to spec, but the electric pump would eliminate the vaporizing issue. My question is this...why do you suggest an in-tank one instead of this seemingly less complicated alternative?

Rzeppa
07-28-2013, 06:48 PM
Jeff, when I had vapor lock issues on Argentine Pass with my 40, Justin from Redline suggested installing an electric in-line fuel pump before the manual pump. He said the manual pump would then act as a regulator, keeping the fuel line pressure to spec, but the electric pump would eliminate the vaporizing issue. My question is this...why do you suggest an in-tank one instead of this seemingly less complicated alternative?

I did not suggest an in-tank one for an FJ60. I suggested a pusher pump at the tank, but not inside it. My daughter's 60 has such an arrangement. It would be a huge PITA to modify the tank to accept an in-tank pump such as is common for fuel injected rigs.

nattybumppo
07-28-2013, 07:08 PM
Yes you did! Thanks for the correction. Someday I will probably do this to my 40.

Rzeppa
07-28-2013, 07:15 PM
Yes you did! Thanks for the correction. Someday I will probably do this to my 40.

It shouldn't be as much of an issue for a later 40 since the tank is both higher and closer to the motor. I think the big thing on older 40s like my 71 is not having any kind of return to cool the fuel.

subzali
07-28-2013, 08:11 PM
Sascha, on our 77s it shouldn't be as much of a problem as Jeff said because we have a fuel return on our carbs. The PO apparently had an issue because when I bought the rig it had insulated soft lines running to and from the carb. I swapped them out with the factory hard lines, but have never had a problem either before or after. Can't explain why though since I run the same gas as everybody and go to the same altitudes at the same temperatures. Wish I could be more helpful

rover67
07-29-2013, 09:17 AM
Jeff, when I had vapor lock issues on Argentine Pass with my 40, Justin from Redline suggested installing an electric in-line fuel pump before the manual pump. He said the manual pump would then act as a regulator, keeping the fuel line pressure to spec, but the electric pump would eliminate the vaporizing issue. My question is this...why do you suggest an in-tank one instead of this seemingly less complicated alternative?

the FJ60 tank actually has a spot for a hole to be cut for an in tank pump (like the FJ62 tank).

Or you could swap a 62 tank.

not a suggestion, just and FYI.

cbmontgo
07-29-2013, 11:49 AM
Great pics guys and great discussion.

My '76 FJ40 vapor locks terribly during the summer. I have thought about going with the inline electric fuel pump as well. When I shut down the engine after driving this time of year, the fuel vaporizes and takes about 30 minutes to cool down and turn back into liquid. Then I can start it and drive right off again. Very annoying sometimes.

When you guys take your carbureted rigs on these trail runs (like the 40s only run), is this not an issue with nearly every truck with the original OEM setup?

Rzeppa
07-29-2013, 05:02 PM
the FJ60 tank actually has a spot for a hole to be cut for an in tank pump (like the FJ62 tank).

Or you could swap a 62 tank.

not a suggestion, just and FYI.

While I was changing the oil in the 60 today, I took a close look at the fuel routing. Then I slapped my forehead. :homer: D'oH! There is only one line to the carb. There are two lines from the frame to the fuel pump (one with filter is obviously the inlet). Obviously the return is between the pump and the tank, not the pump and the carb. This would make the fuel in the line between the pump and the carb hotter, but it is under pressure so it shouldn't boil as readily as the inlet between the tank and the pump which is under negative pressure.

Rzeppa
07-29-2013, 05:05 PM
Great pics guys and great discussion.

My '76 FJ40 vapor locks terribly during the summer. I have thought about going with the inline electric fuel pump as well. When I shut down the engine after driving this time of year, the fuel vaporizes and takes about 30 minutes to cool down and turn back into liquid. Then I can start it and drive right off again. Very annoying sometimes.

When you guys take your carbureted rigs on these trail runs (like the 40s only run), is this not an issue with nearly every truck with the original OEM setup?

I have never had either of my 40s stall while driving, but my '71 will occasionally be difficult to start at high elevation within 2-15 minutes after being shut down and is being heat soaked. If it is less than about 2 minutes, or greater than about 15 minutes then it is fine.

rover67
07-29-2013, 05:13 PM
While I was changing the oil in the 60 today, I took a close look at the fuel routing. Then I slapped my forehead. :homer: D'oH! There is only one line to the carb. There are two lines from the frame to the fuel pump (one with filter is obviously the inlet). Obviously the return is between the pump and the tank, not the pump and the carb. This would make the fuel in the line between the pump and the carb hotter, but it is under pressure so it shouldn't boil as readily as the inlet between the tank and the pump which is under negative pressure.

Yeah that's what Bruce and I were saying, the 60's have a return to tank from the pump.

The only issues I had on the suction side of my rigs fuel system was when i was running a high volume external pump for my fuel injection. It would cavitate due to the hot fuel vaporizing under vacuum on the suction side.

Went to in tank pump and problem solved.

My 40 with a similar fuel system (block mounted pump with return to tank) runs fine. It has not "vapor locked" on days when other people's rigs have. I am not sure what the difference is, but I do think that holding the fuel system at an overall higher pressure helps... so maybe it is a rig with a leaky fuel cap or vent system that won't allow pressure to build lets the fuel boil faster?

Rzeppa
07-29-2013, 09:28 PM
Yeah that's what Bruce and I were saying, the 60's have a return to tank from the pump.

The only issues I had on the suction side of my rigs fuel system was when i was running a high volume external pump for my fuel injection. It would cavitate due to the hot fuel vaporizing under vacuum on the suction side.

Went to in tank pump and problem solved.

My 40 with a similar fuel system (block mounted pump with return to tank) runs fine. It has not "vapor locked" on days when other people's rigs have. I am not sure what the difference is, but I do think that holding the fuel system at an overall higher pressure helps... so maybe it is a rig with a leaky fuel cap or vent system that won't allow pressure to build lets the fuel boil faster?

I think the later 40 system is better than the 60 system. The later 40 system basically is constantly recirculating from the tank to the carb and back to the tank, keeping the fuel cooler. The system on 60s recirculates from the pump to the tank, but the end from the pump to the carb is a dead end and can get hot. The main thing it has going for it is being under pressure, so it has a higher boiling point.

Of course putting the pump in the tank solves one problem while creating another when it is time to replace it. ;)

subzali
07-29-2013, 10:36 PM
Carson, how is your timing? Sometimes if your timing is off it can affect how it starts.

cbmontgo
07-30-2013, 09:26 AM
Carson, how is your timing? Sometimes if your timing is off it can affect how it starts.

Timing is set. She starts and runs perfectly except for this particular issue when it's hot.