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farnhamstj
10-06-2013, 09:36 PM
Couldn't get gas in Hite. All roads, through NP's are closed. Somehow the rangers are "volunteering" to enforce these closures.

http://www.nps.gov/shutdown/index.html

head's up for anyone headed to UT or any NP soon.


Good news is the pit toilets in San Rafael Swell still had toilet paper this morning.

J Kimmel
10-06-2013, 11:25 PM
Fun. Can't keep public land open but we can go ahead and keep paying employees to close it.

None of this is for show.

simps80
10-07-2013, 12:13 AM
they're shutting down parks and sites the fed's don't even fund

-claude moore colonial farm
-Ford's Theater
-Mount Vernon

Caribou Sandstorm
10-07-2013, 12:14 AM
Couldn't get gas in Hite. All roads, through NP's are closed. Somehow the rangers are "volunteering" to enforce these closures.

http://www.nps.gov/shutdown/index.html

head's up for anyone headed to UT or any NP soon.


Good news is the pit toilets in San Rafael Swell still had toilet paper this morning.

Where were you headed, coming from?

farnhamstj
10-07-2013, 12:55 AM
Spent the last 6 days in the Swell. Near Temple Mountain. Crossed the Muddy river. 2+ hour bike extraction. Hanksville for gas then Crossed the Dirty Devil toward Hite. Plan was to hit Maze and Needles. No luck, so up Flint and back to Swell. Got gas from other motorcyclists.

Caribou Sandstorm
10-07-2013, 11:13 AM
he's shutting down parks and sites the fed's don't even fund

-claude moore colonial farm
-Ford's Theater
-Mount Vernon

He? Really Mike? Congress has the purse strings. Don't muck up the thread with BS.

Caribou Sandstorm
10-07-2013, 11:17 AM
Spent the last 6 days in the Swell. Near Temple Mountain. Crossed the Muddy river. 2+ hour bike extraction. Hanksville for gas then Crossed the Dirty Devil toward Hite. Plan was to hit Maze and Needles. No luck, so up Flint and back to Swell. Got gas from other motorcyclists.

Wow, how deep was the Dirty Devil? Were rangers camped at the bottom of the flint to turn you back? Or at the east end of Poison Springs Road?

simps80
10-07-2013, 01:21 PM
He? Really Mike? Congress has the purse strings. Don't muck up the thread with BS.

oh sorry.
edited.

nuclearlemon
10-07-2013, 01:28 PM
He? Really Mike? Congress has the purse strings. Don't muck up the thread with BS.

why? all of congress is just as much bull**** as the so called savior ;)

daveIT
10-07-2013, 01:50 PM
What's the opposite of Congress? Progress.

Caribou Sandstorm
10-07-2013, 02:00 PM
why? all of congress is just as much bull**** as the so called savior ;)

Touche...

Mike sorry if I was a little harsh, too much morning coffee..

AxleIke
10-07-2013, 03:37 PM
they're shutting down parks and sites the fed's don't even fund

-claude moore colonial farm
-Ford's Theater
-Mount Vernon

LOL. All three of those are administered by the National Park Service, so they are closed.

I'm curious why you all think that the National Parks should be open? I thought you all thought that the NPS was one of those "not needed" things?

J Kimmel
10-07-2013, 03:42 PM
I'm not so sure people are upset that they are closed...I think its laughable that they don't have money to keep them open yet they can staff the doors to keep them closed.

AxleIke
10-07-2013, 03:53 PM
Curious how you would go about keeping people from looting places, damaging things, etc? Lots of those historical sites have very priceless items within them (Mount Vernon certainly).

I may be a pessimist, but I don't believe that people would just "respect" the closure signs.

simps80
10-07-2013, 04:32 PM
Curious how you would go about keeping people from looting places, damaging things, etc? Lots of those historical sites have very priceless items within them (Mount Vernon certainly).

I may be a pessimist, but I don't believe that people would just "respect" the closure signs.

I won't get into it all, its pointless.

But just real quick, Mount Vernon is actually privately owned and operated by the Mount Vernon Ladies association. It has never been under the operations of the NPS and it is actually open, they have had to update their website to state that its actually not shutdown but open because "they" barricaded the parking lots surrounding it with closed due to federal govt shutdown.

but I won't comment further, just wanted to clarify.

simps80
10-07-2013, 04:37 PM
34790

"The National Park Service blocked parking lots at George Washington’s Mt. Vernon Estate and Gardens “due to a misunderstanding over the ownership of the spaces,” according to Melissa Wood, Mt. Vernon’s media director.

Mount Vernon officials approached the NPS, which removed the barricades “as soon as they realized their mistake,” Wood says, adding that the Park Service maintains the parking lots, but Mount Vernon owns the property. "

AxleIke
10-07-2013, 04:42 PM
Fair enough, they are open. And, it seems, via articles, that the NPS removed their signs once the issue was straitened out. I assume we can all admit to making a few mistakes ourselves?

For areas that are NOT privately owned, like the one that started this thread, I would argue that it is important to the maintenance of those parks to keep them closed, a la my previous comments. There are other areas with priceless things besides mount Vernon.

I have LOADS of issues with our government, but I believe that the National Parks is one thing the feds do that is 100% worthwhile. I enjoy visiting them, and while I take issue with the closures on other federal lands (Forests or BLM) supposed to be open to the public, I damn sure would rather have at least SOME public areas to recreate, rather than all private. As a hunter and fisherman, I am VERY thankful for areas that I can only access by foot.

In the end, I think this thread is a prime example of what our Gov't is great at: convincing us it is anyone's fault but congress'. Here we are arguing about a minuscule department and budget item, when the real issue is that there are a bunch of whiny kindergarteners running the damn show.

Cheers!

simps80
10-07-2013, 04:46 PM
Fair enough, they are open. And, it seems, via articles, that the NPS removed their signs once the issue was straitened out. I assume we can all admit to making a few mistakes ourselves?

indeed. we can.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/straightened :D

sorry, I couldn't resist.
:)
sorry sorry :lmao:

but you are right we can, all kidding aside :)

see I had to edit twice for grammar, never mind the capitalization and punctuation

subzali
10-07-2013, 04:49 PM
Isaac, the USFS doesn't have funding, but does that mean the forests are closed?

I am not advocating that anything be vandalized and I certainly appreciate the pricelessness of these places, but it seems to me that we fund the NPS for maintenance of the parks and for manning visitor centers etc., not just for the privilege of accessing them. Maybe I don't understand (because I haven't read) the statute establishing national parks?

AxleIke
10-07-2013, 04:58 PM
indeed. we can.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/straightened :D

sorry, I couldn't resist.
:)
sorry sorry :lmao:

but you are right we can, all kidding aside :)

see I had to edit twice for grammar, never mind the capitalization and punctuation

:D:D:D:D:D:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

Well done! That was pretty damn funny.

DaveInDenver
10-07-2013, 05:00 PM
The vandalism argument is something I hadn't considered. That's a valid point. The NPS budget was $3 billion last year, which represents 0.1% of the whole Federal government. But it's something that carries more impact than its budget would suggest. Of all the things to fight over, something that costs each taxpayer something like $20 annually. If it was up to me I'd spin it off, increase the price of our annual pass that $20 and run it quasi (or maybe even fully) independent of the Federal government. Maybe let the state park departments where the parks are located run them, they'd be closer in touch with local issues anyway.

simps80
10-07-2013, 05:05 PM
If it was up to me I'd spin it off, increase the price of our annual pass that $20 and run it quasi (or maybe even fully) independent of the Federal government. Maybe let the state park departments where the parks are located run them, they'd be closer in touch with local issues anyway.

^^^this

AxleIke
10-07-2013, 05:08 PM
Isaac, the USFS doesn't have funding, but does that mean the forests are closed?

I am not advocating that anything be vandalized and I certainly appreciate the pricelessness of these places, but it seems to me that we fund the NPS for maintenance of the parks and for manning visitor centers etc., not just for the privilege of accessing them. Maybe I don't understand (because I haven't read) the statute establishing national parks?

My understanding is, and this could be incorrect, (the website on this info was a .gov site and therefore is non-operational) that National Parks are a different classification of federal land than forests. Forests have all sorts of caveats: people can claim land on them (mining usually), you can cut wood, graze cattle, you can primitive camp, etc.... BLM has its own set of things. National Parks are the highest of the high for public access (obviously military installations would be even higher). Hence all of further restrictions.

I am, a little bit, playing devils advocate here. But only slightly. I agree with Jeremy that if we are paying staff to be there, at least SOME of the areas could be open, one would think. Obviously not visitors centers or any of the guided things, or camp grounds but you could drive through.

On the other hand, I think that things like the national parks closing helps drive home the fact that the federal system is not entirely bad. They do provide really great services, that perhaps we all take for granted. The reality is, we have a completely idiotic and dysfunctional congress. I think it is important to separate those dip****s from the millions of hardworking, dedicated individuals who work in the federal system, like Park Rangers.

Anyway, to summarize, I think the National Parks are closed while the USFS system is not because of the higher grade of protection that National Parks are required to have.

DaveInDenver
10-07-2013, 05:11 PM
And FWIW, a regular annual pass (the American The Beautiful pass) is $80 already, so $100 to have it separate from all this nonsense is fine by me. Roll it into one with our state parks pass, which is $50, and maybe the CoSARS card would be sweet. Just one thing to renew annually.

BTW, they went out of their way to shut off the website. Other shutdown units, like JPL, just put a note up on their site that says it won't be maintained during the shutdown but all the existing information was left.

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/

"Federal Government Shutdown
Due to the lapse in federal government funding, this website is not being updated. We also cannot respond to comments/questions. We sincerely regret this inconvenience."

AxleIke
10-07-2013, 05:20 PM
The vandalism argument is something I hadn't considered. That's a valid point. The NPS budget was $3 billion last year, which represents 0.1% of the whole Federal government. But it's something that carries more impact than its budget would suggest. Of all the things to fight over, something that costs each taxpayer something like $20 annually. If it was up to me I'd spin it off, increase the price of our annual pass that $20 and run it quasi (or maybe even fully) independent of the Federal government. Maybe let the state park departments where the parks are located run them, they'd be closer in touch with local issues anyway.

Perhaps. But see my comment above. The parks are generally run pretty well.

I certainly don't want to see them go private, and I will give you a personal example of why.

My wife's grandfather is handicapped. We took him out to Point Loma in San Diego, which is an NPS run site. The place was pretty packed. Not terrible, but decently busy. There were two rangers on duty at the visitors center, and one that we saw up at the light house. One of the Rangers made a point to come over, and talk to her grandfather, and provided us with a wheel chair (he uses a walker but was having difficulty navigating the pathway's. He then gave us a pass to drive him up a restricted road so that he could visit the lighthouse without having to hike him up a steep hill. We saw the same treatment for other disabled folks. All for the 5 dollar entrance price and the 20 bucks per year we pay.

We then went to the Hotel del Corronado. Also a historical site, but privately owned. Addmission was 25 dollars, and then we had to go find, rent, and return with a wheel chair (another 25 bucks) and argue over our use of a handicapped space (despite our placard) with the parking attendant. All of the service was rude and in some cases, IMO, disrespectful (though I was pissed off so it may have been just rude).

I think there are many areas where privatizing gov't run programs makes at least some sense, but the parks are not one of them. (I realize you were not advocating this Dave, just putting the argument out there). Bringing them to State level, that is a different story, and perhaps a blending of the two might make some sense, not sure.

Sorry for the rants, but I REALLY like the National Parks :D

wesintl
10-07-2013, 05:39 PM
If it was up to me I'd spin it off, increase the price of our annual pass that $20 and run it quasi (or maybe even fully) independent of the Federal government. Maybe let the state park departments where the parks are located run them, they'd be closer in touch with local issues anyway.

You mean like Amtrak :o LOL

Snowrun
10-07-2013, 05:40 PM
:)

60wag
10-07-2013, 07:10 PM
Many of the lodges and concessions in the national parks are already contracted to private businesses but still closed. We were scheduled to visit Yosemite last week but had to change plans due to the shutdown.

DaveInDenver
10-07-2013, 09:22 PM
You mean like Amtrak :o LOL
And the Postal Service.

farnhamstj
10-08-2013, 10:51 AM
Crossing the Dirty Devil. That's the road on the other side. 10' up the embankment.

Second photo is Ben and I stuck in knee deep quicksand. We crossed Muddy Creek with no real issue, but in our attempt to find the road at 7am we headed across what looked like a sandy wash.

Caribou Sandstorm
10-08-2013, 11:05 AM
Farnham, how was it that you all were turned away from the Maze? Was there a gate down or rangers camped somewhere?

farnhamstj
10-08-2013, 11:26 AM
We met up with a group that had been turned away by a Ranger outside Hite that wouldn't let anyone pass to get fuel. Presumed there was no way we were gonna get gas from Needles outpost and didn't want to end up on the wrong side of a locked gate with no way to refuel. Bike has a range of 120 miles, and we carried another 20miles worth in our pack packs.

Caribou Sandstorm
10-08-2013, 12:57 PM
ahh makes sense. Thanks

DaveInDenver
10-10-2013, 08:35 AM
Nothing would change except the state of Utah would send the same people paychecks who are currently doing the work.

County In Utah Threatens Takeover Of National Park Areas (http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/10/09/231086726/county-in-utah-threatens-takeover-of-national-park-areas)

San Juan County has become the fifth county in Utah to declare a state of emergency in response to the closure of National Park areas.

But the San Juan County Commission has also decided to storm National Park Service barricades, take control of some parks, and reopen them to the public.

"This is civil disobedience," says Phil Lyman, a CPA and county commissioner from Monticello, Utah, in the southeastern corner of the state. "What's happening to us is wrong."

The commissioners had decided to take down the barricades at Natural Bridges National Monument as early as Thursday morning but put off that move to give Utah Governor Gary Herbert time to discuss the issue with Interior Secretary Sally Jewell.

"The decision has been made," Lyman adds. "But decisions change."

San Juan County also includes Hovenweep and Rainbow Bridge National Monuments, the Island in the Sky and Needles Districts of Canyonlands National Park and the Hite Marina inside the Glen Canyon National Recreation Area.

In an emergency meeting Wednesday, the commissioners decided to mobilize Sheriff's deputies, search and rescue volunteers, firefighters, EMT's, portable toilets, garbage trucks and three mobile command centers.

At least 60 people would be involved, according to Rick Bailey, the county fire marshal. Bailey said the costs of the operation haven't been calculated but he said they're necessary.

"How do we let local businesses starve to death?" he asked.

The commissioners indicated in their Wednesday meeting that they are seeking financial assistance from the state of Utah.

Bailey says 70 percent of the county's businesses depend on visitors to the region's National Parks, Monuments and Recreation Areas, as well as public lands managed by the U.S. Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management.

Ninety-one percent of the county is state, federal or Indian reservation land and the county has a history of protesting and resisting federal land management policies.

The county is also as big as Connecticut and Delaware combined and the National Park areas involved in the planned takeover are hundreds of miles apart.

Kate Cannon, the regional superintendant of the National Park Service, has been kept informed, the commissioners said in their meeting Wednesday.

"We have been advised by the Park Service...that it is against the law," Bailey says of the county's plans. "They have not indicated that they would make arrests or stop people."

Trespassing in a National Park can trigger a citation that is then adjudicated by a Federal Magistrate, who can levy fines of up to $500 and jail terms of up to six months.

A spokesman for the National Park Service says the agency plans to issue a statement soon.

"We don't want to threaten or intimidate federal employees," an unidentified commissioner said during a recorded conference call. "We're not strong-arming anybody. We're just getting people into these places."

This weekend and early next week are usually very busy for federal and state lands in the state because universities and public schools have fall break.

In their Wednesday meeting, the commissioners said they were prepared to provide or clean toilets, collect garbage, conduct search and rescue operations, staff park entrances and provide law enforcement. They also discussed maximizing media attention and staging photo opportunities.

They agreed that they would explain their actions by saying "we as a county are trying to do what is in the best interests of the public."

Gov. Herbert told reporters Wednesday he's also prepared to marshal funding and workers to open other National Park areas in the state. He's asked President Obama to immediately authorize state funding and/or staffing.

"This is just...common sense," Herbert said. "And frankly we ought to be finding solutions to keep them open rather than saying why they have to be closed."

smslavin
10-10-2013, 08:52 AM
Nothing would change except the state of Utah would wend the same people paychecks who are currently doing the work.

County In Utah Threatens Takeover Of National Park Areas (http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/10/09/231086726/county-in-utah-threatens-takeover-of-national-park-areas)

why not? sounds like a better option than this one...

http://wilderness.org/blog/while-yosemite-closed-its-open-season-timber-companies

DaveInDenver
10-10-2013, 08:55 AM
why not? sounds like a better option than this one...

http://wilderness.org/blog/while-yosemite-closed-its-open-season-timber-companies
These bills would have to pass Congress and be signed by the president. Watch it closely to see who is running the show. Most of these things have been floating around for a while and committees holding hearings is nowhere close to impending legislation. I rarely believe anything the Wilderness Society or SUWA say at face value anyway. The issues of access, logging, mining, drilling, recreation and protection are IMVHO great reason to move administration to state governments. Blanket policies don't work. What makes sense for Oregon is less good for Arizona and makes no sense for Tennessee or Virginia.

smslavin
10-10-2013, 09:31 AM
The issues of access, logging, mining, drilling, recreation and protection are IMVHO great reason to move administration to state governments. Blanket policies don't work. What makes sense for Oregon is less good for Arizona and makes no sense for Tennessee or Virginia.

total agreement

nakman
10-10-2013, 11:36 AM
I'm impressed they have the time to send out emails.



Dear Canyonlands National Park Backcountry reservation holder,

It has come to the point where although we are still profoundly hopeful that a resolution to the government shutdown will occur soon we need to inform you of what to expect if the government is still shutdown at the time of your trip start. Here are the main points:

- The park will be closed.
- The Visitor Center will be closed.
- No trip starts will be allowed.
- We will offer a credit for a future trip if you have already paid for your permit and are unable to use it.

We will make every effort to notify you as soon as possible if an appropriation is passed. Media outlets will likely be the first to report
it so I would keep a close eye on the news.

A small NPS presence will continue to protect life and property to the greatest degree possible. The main point is the parks are closed and it is unlawful to enter.

This is a stressful situation for all of us. I thank you for your patience and as always thank you for helping us protect the park.
--
Canyonlands Backcountry Reservation Office
2282 Resource Blvd
Moab, UT 84532-3406
phone- 435-259-4351
fax- 435-259-4285
canyres@nps.gov
Canyonlands National Park
National Park Service
U.S. Department of the Interior

AxleIke
10-10-2013, 01:58 PM
These bills would have to pass Congress and be signed by the president. Watch it closely to see who is running the show. Most of these things have been floating around for a while and committees holding hearings is nowhere close to impending legislation. I rarely believe anything the Wilderness Society or SUWA say at face value anyway. The issues of access, logging, mining, drilling, recreation and protection are IMVHO great reason to move administration to state governments. Blanket policies don't work. What makes sense for Oregon is less good for Arizona and makes no sense for Tennessee or Virginia.

Total Disagreement. The Parks should be blanket protected. No matter what. No mining, no drilling, no logging. Moving it to the state governments allows too much lee way for opening the parks to business interests. The parks should remain off limits to everyone except the visiting public. IMHO.

Now, forest land, BLM land, etc... Totally different story, and I can see states being able to better run those lands.

DaveInDenver
10-10-2013, 03:19 PM
One universal policy that irks me is there is no single track mountain biking allowed in national parks. The past couple of years the NPS and IMBA have been exploring it but it's still off limits until a specific exception is made and only a couple of them so far (mostly the ones in Big Bend) have been true mountain bike trails instead of dirt paths. Just because it was a foregone conclusion that it would fail at Point Reyes doesn't mean the other millions of acres aren't suitable.

I see your point Isaac and I can't argue that the push to develop every danged inch of dirt into something is a problem. As much as I want it to be true, I don't think national parks would exist as such in our current economic climate of maximizing investor profit. National parks would end up looking like Disney Land. So that's a selfish view on my part, that a national park should exist despite that it would clearly generate better return on investment as something else. That is why I don't trust privatizing them in the reality we have now. But I think it's fine to allow individual states to administer their public lands how they see fit, which is going to end up with some national parks being even more restrictive than currently and some possibly less.

Further, I don't know that your assumption here is correct because we have state parks and trust lands that exist already and don't have drilling rigs and mining in them. As far as logging, the State Forest State Park is logged and the beetle kill over there is not nearly as bad as RMNP, which is just on the other side of the Mummy Range. The Colorado DNR still has to answer to citizens' concerns and highly doubt they'd have much support for allowing extraction (other than some logging or maybe even just fire mitigation) in these places. Afterall they are not wildernesses and they already do minimally fight fires, so they are not truly left unspoiled.

DaveInDenver
10-11-2013, 06:00 PM
Utah, Colo. parks to reopen amid shutdown; Arizona still waiting (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/11/utah-parks-reopen-arizona-still-waiting/)
Utah has agreed to pay the federal government $1.7 million to open up eight national parks during the government shutdown, and Colorado will pony up $362,700 to open Rocky Mountain National Park.

But Arizona officials said the Obama administration is still “dragging their feet” in reaching an agreement over the Grand Canyon.

After being battered for its decision-making during the shutdown, the park service is trying to regain its footing, including opening up monuments in Washington and Philadelphia to First Amendment activities, which in essence makes them open to anyone who knows the policy.

After first floating the potential for a deal on Thursday, the park service said it had finalized an agreement with Utah on Friday.

“This is a practical and temporary solution that will lessen the pain for some businesses and communities,” Interior Department Secretary Sally Jewell said, adding that she is looking to strike agreements with other states.

As of Friday afternoon, Utah and Colorado were the only ones to get agreements.

Arizona has been desperate to get the Grand Canyon reopened, and Gov. Jan Brewer had a conversation Friday with Ms. Jewell, but since then the state said it’s heard nothing.

“It’s been more than 14 hours since Secretary Jewell and Gov. Brewer spoke,” said Andrew Wilder, a spokesman for the governor. “We’ve placed multiple calls yesterday, multiple calls today trying to reach them.”

He said the got an email from Interior Department staff proposing a phone call take place Friday, but after the Arizona officials agreed, they never heard back.

“They’re dragging their feet, it appears,” Mr. Wilder said.

Under the agreement with Utah, the state will donate funds to the park service, which will use the money to reopen Arches, Bryce Canyon, Canyonlands, Capitol Reef, and Zion National Parks, as well as Cedar Breaks National Monument, Natural Bridges National Monument and Glen Canyon National Recreation Area. The parks will reopen Friday and the money will last for 10 days.

States had proposed this sort of arrangement early on, saying they’d done the same thing in the 1995-1996 shutdowns, but the Park Service had balked this year, telling states it didn’t have the legal ability to make those deals.