PDA

View Full Version : Culvert salvage project


subzali
12-04-2013, 04:08 PM
Hey everybody, check out this request from the CCRD:
Hey Martin and Matt,
I’ve got a possible project for the club that I thought I would present to you guys.

We(FS) have a huge(40’long x 12’wide x 8’ high) galvanized culvert up at Mizpah CG along Hwy. 40 that has been sitting there for awhile now. It is partially rusted through and not usable. CDot graciously removed it from the stream for us when it washed out last spring. We had quotes of thousands of dollars just to lift out of the stream for us so we are very thankful Cdot was willing to lift it out with their excavator. However, now we don’t have a good way or anyway really to move it as is. So I was wondering if the club might be willing to volunteer to take on the challenge of disassembling and hauling off in smaller pieces. I say ‘challenge’ because it will be a big job to take it apart. The sections are bolted together so it would be lots of nut and bolt work…and some bolts are likely rusted to the point of needing grinding or something to remove. The panels would be pretty heavy too, not sure exactly if the individual panels could be lifted by hand or how big they are?…
After disassembly, the club could do with the pieces as they wish…but I bet there would be a couple thousand pounds of metal? If the club doesn’t want the metal, we(FS) could handle the smaller pieces.
My understanding is that, since the pipe is galvanized, you cannot cut it in pieces with a torch. I guess there is some nasty chemicals or fumes?

If you want to discuss or take a look at it let me know. It is visible now, but I am thinking that the project would likely be a springtime deal since there is no real hurry to remove til then and why make it anymore difficult by adding in some snow and cold…If anyone is headed to Winter Park area, the pipe is near the blue green cabins along Hwy. 40 near Mizpah CG.
If you guys are not interested, no worries, I just thought I would hit you guys up first before I ask any of my other volunteers. I know this isn’t really a Adopt-a-road project but it would really help us out and might be an interesting challenge for your club. It will be very costly for the FS to pay to have it removed and that is the plan if I can’t find another way…Let me know what you think.
Thanks.

Anybody interested?

60wag
12-04-2013, 04:25 PM
Sounds like a fun project. I wonder if you could twist the bolts off with a 3/4" impact wrench and a bunch of compressors tied together?

subzali
12-04-2013, 04:29 PM
I was thinking maybe battery powered sawzalls or perhaps a generator to provide power...and just forget about taking it apart bolt by bolt. Or, has anyone ever used a concrete saw and put a metal cutting blade on it?

Here is some more info:
The FS would want some ‘on the scene’ oversight as well since it could be a potentially dangerous project with volunteers. But we can discuss how it would go if you guys want to take it on…Individuals would definitely need to be signed up as volunteers(separate from Adopt-a-Road) and we would need some safety discussions at the site so everyone knows what is going on…

nakman
12-04-2013, 04:29 PM
I agree, sounds fun. My inverter will easily power a 4" angle grinder... not the quietest of solutions, but would also be an option. Plus from the sounds of it, a piece of this could be the great start to that zombie shelter..

subzali
12-04-2013, 04:50 PM
Here is some more:
Its pretty heavy duty, not sure sawzalls would work or not? If they did work it would tear up the blades. Maybe on the rusty parts/underside?

It is oval shaped. You could drive a car though it…

We have two small generators that could be factored in…
We could probably even have our skid steer there to lift pieces onto a trailer to limit some of the heavy lifting or allow us to keep the sections bigger.

To remove the nuts and bolts, I think it might be necessary to have someone on the inside of the pipe to hold the nut? It has regular hex head bolts with nuts on the inside of the pipe(I think) I would guess the bolts/nuts are around 1 inch size, maybe larger? It may be a little exciting to remove some of the bolts because I would imagine there will be some tension on the panels where they might want to spring?

Not sure how big the panels are exactly but I would guess each is at least 4 feet wide and 6-8 feet long.

AxleIke
12-04-2013, 04:54 PM
I wonder how thick the metal is? My plasma will run off of 20A 120, but it will only cut an 1/8 I think. Maybe a little more. Would need an air source or N2 though. Anyway, not a real option, unless someone has a small IR trailer generator or some such, that they use for work and can borrow (big if). But one of those could easily run the plasma and the compressor, which would make VERY fast work of it.

That said, I think a sawzall (battery powered or corded) is the way to go. Tim, the inverter running a sawzall would be faster than the grinder, and I'd bet they have a similar load. That may be the way to go. Anyone have a small honda generator? Those would be better than the inverter.

I'd be willing to help out. That sounds kinda fun!

AxleIke
12-04-2013, 04:55 PM
Oops, posted at the same time.

But they are wrong. I've cut 1/4" plate and 3/8 with my sawzall. It goes WAY faster than a grinder.

subzali
12-04-2013, 05:12 PM
Are there worries about plasma cutting galvanized like there is with welding it?

JadeRunner
12-04-2013, 07:35 PM
My dad lives in Winter Park and I will be going up on Sunday for a xmas tree. I will take a picture of it.

BritKLR
12-05-2013, 08:45 AM
I have a large truck and 16 ft trailer to help haul off the scrap.

Does anyone know if the local scrap yards will accept galvanized metal?

AxleIke
12-05-2013, 11:05 AM
Are there worries about plasma cutting galvanized like there is with welding it?

Yes, but the worry with galvanized is being indoors and not well ventilated. Being outside shouldn't be an issue. However, I don't think we've got the juice to run it. Grinders, sawzalls and impact wrenches seem to be the way to go.

subzali
12-05-2013, 03:58 PM
Pictures

DaveInDenver
12-05-2013, 04:13 PM
Sawzalls would take forever. Look to people who do this all the time, portable hand saws.

http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-g/gas-powered-hand-cut-off-saws-61740-2497417.jpg

Why not acetylene torches instead of plasma cutters? No electricity needed? But if going the heat route even outside you should wear a respirator. Zinc poisoning is real.

subzali
12-05-2013, 05:00 PM
Sawzalls would take forever. Look to people who do this all the time, portable hand saws.

http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-g/gas-powered-hand-cut-off-saws-61740-2497417.jpg

Why not acetylene torches instead of plasma cutters? No electricity needed? But if going the heat route even outside you should wear a respirator. Zinc poisoning is real.

I wondered in a previous post if anyone had used that type of saw to cut metal, and not just concrete.

Here is some more feedback from the ranger:
The Campground where this culvert was removed has been closed for about 4 years now because the crossing(where the culvert was) was compromised due to erosion, high water etc. When we finally got the culvert out, now we have issues dealing with it…Someday, I hope that we can get the crossing fixed again and get the campground opened back up. It is the best campground on this district. It has been a low priority for our Forest to fix and get it opened because the CG only has 10 campsites…Hopefully we can make this all happen and take the next step towards opening back up. The costs involved in replacing culverts/crossings/bridges is unbelievable.

Matt, When I mentioned to [the fish biologist] that you guys might be interested helping remove the culvert, she was ecstatic. This has been a thorn in her side for awhile now.
She enjoyed working with you guys [on the EA and signing project in October of 2012) and is really optimistic and motivated to make Leavenworth a better place. Your work on this district hasn’t gone unnoticed and is hugely appreciated.

BritKLR
12-05-2013, 05:16 PM
Sawzalls would take forever. Look to people who do this all the time, portable hand saws.

http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-g/gas-powered-hand-cut-off-saws-61740-2497417.jpg

Why not acetylene torches instead of plasma cutters? No electricity needed? But if going the heat route even outside you should wear a respirator. Zinc poisoning is real.

That's a beautiful thing!

Would the club be willing to rent a couple of those or try to get them donated? They would make short work of the task.

Crash
12-05-2013, 05:35 PM
Husqvarna, baby. Yeah!

subzali
12-05-2013, 06:12 PM
Love me some Husky...:guapo:

DaveInDenver
12-05-2013, 06:20 PM
I was thinking renting a couple would be the ticket. They use them to cut rebar and when working on pipes. I would assume whoever put in the culvert originally, too.

But talk about quick ways to remove body parts, don't get too ahead of ourselves...

w6BkWeCNMxM

rover67
12-05-2013, 06:39 PM
looks like it'd be a good idea to do it when there is snow/water around :D

I could bring my Oxy/Acetylene rig. It'd last a while with two fresh bottles. I have a respirator i can wear and keep my head and others up wind of the cut. might be good to cut bolts.

I have had a hard time with rusty metal on sawzall blades. tends to eat them.

LARGEONE
12-08-2013, 10:41 AM
This sounds like a really fun outing.

Is the Forrest service willing to pay at least a small amount for renting saws? Or buying blades?

Shotshell
12-08-2013, 11:39 AM
Here are my thoughts on it. Take from it what you will.

I know we as a club volunteer our time for "Adopt-A-Trail". This benefits not only us, but everyone who uses those trails. I can definitely see the immediate benefit of taking part in those efforts, and I am more than happy and willing to volunteer my time to participate in them.

However, this is something totally different. This culvert isn't on a trail. It's just sitting on the side of HWY 40. And now the FS starts thinking that they want to get rid of it, but doesn't want to foot the bill. So who do they call for free labor? Our Club? Um, ok…

I can see how this might be a great way for our club to show the FS that we're great folks and that we are willing to help keep Colorado a beautiful place. But I say that this is a totally different animal. And if they want to have us remove this monstrosity, then we need to make a trade. Culvert removal for trails. We'll spend our time and money to remove the culvert, but we want two trails, closed in the past ten years in their district, reopened for a two year trial run. And the club would volunteer to add them to our yearly "Adopt-A-Trail" program. After the two years, the trail's conditions would be evaluated with our efforts to keep them clean.

That's my two cents. Seems like a great way for everyone to win all around.

AxleIke
12-08-2013, 12:46 PM
Here are my thoughts on it. Take from it what you will.

I know we as a club volunteer our time for "Adopt-A-Trail". This benefits not only us, but everyone who uses those trails. I can definitely see the immediate benefit of taking part in those efforts, and I am more than happy and willing to volunteer my time to participate in them.

However, this is something totally different. This culvert isn't on a trail. It's just sitting on the side of HWY 40. And now the FS starts thinking that they want to get rid of it, but doesn't want to foot the bill. So who do they call for free labor? Our Club? Um, ok…

I can see how this might be a great way for our club to show the FS that we're great folks and that we are willing to help keep Colorado a beautiful place. But I say that this is a totally different animal. And if they want to have us remove this monstrosity, then we need to make a trade. Culvert removal for trails. We'll spend our time and money to remove the culvert, but we want two trails, closed in the past ten years in their district, reopened for a two year trial run. And the club would volunteer to add them to our yearly "Adopt-A-Trail" program. After the two years, the trail's conditions would be evaluated with our efforts to keep them clean.

That's my two cents. Seems like a great way for everyone to win all around.

Good sentiment, but it'll never happen. I did the land use work for the club for a while, and it was absolutely depressing.

Opening a trail involves so much bureaucracy, it would blow your mind. They have to get engineers in, biologists, erosion specialists, etc, etc... Its a nightmare. And costs so much money, unless there is another motivation (hippy access, mine site access, etc...) they almost never go through with it.

When they were trying to open a rock crawl track up lefthand in the BRD, it was mind boggling how many different people they had to get in there to okay the route. Heck, even sinking winch anchors was a 6 month process. A member of a different club was a PE in mechanical engineering, and he designed a winch anchor based on the rock type and a load that was something like 10x what even the heaviest truck would be, and was able to stamp the design with his PE stamp. The FS STILL wouldn't use the design until a FS approved engineer signed off that it was okay. And that was going to take months.

I think the only thing we get out of this is some good will from the FS, and the satisfaction of a job well done. The sad reality is that, from what I've seen, even at the BRD meetings, is that the majority of OHV users are irresponsible jerks. The FS hates dealing with people who are a pain, and doesn't want to spend money every year re-doing the same work over and over again, so they just close stuff down to avoid the hassle of trying to maintain something that is continually torn up by butt-heads. Those of us in the minority of responsible and courteous users pay the price despite not having done anything wrong.

subzali
12-09-2013, 09:27 AM
Here are my thoughts on it. Take from it what you will.

I know we as a club volunteer our time for "Adopt-A-Trail". This benefits not only us, but everyone who uses those trails. I can definitely see the immediate benefit of taking part in those efforts, and I am more than happy and willing to volunteer my time to participate in them.

However, this is something totally different. This culvert isn't on a trail. It's just sitting on the side of HWY 40. And now the FS starts thinking that they want to get rid of it, but doesn't want to foot the bill. So who do they call for free labor? Our Club? Um, ok…

I can see how this might be a great way for our club to show the FS that we're great folks and that we are willing to help keep Colorado a beautiful place. But I say that this is a totally different animal. And if they want to have us remove this monstrosity, then we need to make a trade. Culvert removal for trails. We'll spend our time and money to remove the culvert, but we want two trails, closed in the past ten years in their district, reopened for a two year trial run. And the club would volunteer to add them to our yearly "Adopt-A-Trail" program. After the two years, the trail's conditions would be evaluated with our efforts to keep them clean.

That's my two cents. Seems like a great way for everyone to win all around.

Appreciate your input Travis. Unfortunately that's not the way if works these days with the Roadless Rule in affect and the MVUMs. Isaac is right, there is a lot involved with getting roads added or deleted from the MVUMs.

Remember, we are not obligated to do this project. Brant just thought that we might be interested, because we've been known to do some unique projects (from ATV recoveries to post and cable projects to erosion control in the Hayman burn area to moving large rocks). If there is no interest I or Dan (our new Land Use Coordinator) can tell him that and he will (and probably still is anyway) explore other options.

DaveInDenver
12-09-2013, 09:32 AM
Obviously the club should consider it for the good will you gain, but is it going to really help when push comes to shove with future closures? It might but I think Brant is happy with the work and hours already so it's really about helping him get more pull within the USFS org if he goes to bat for OHV use or stopping a particular closure. Every little bit helps.

DanS
12-09-2013, 10:42 PM
Every little bit helps.

Correct.

The other reason I'm in favor of trying to help out here is that it's a step in getting the campground re-opened. It's a small campground, but 10 sites is 10 less dispersed camp sites that we would have to clean up along Argentine.

We've had people squat on our land (which borders the National Forest) so I don't doubt for a second that having more established camp sites in Clear Creek would help with the "out of bounds" camping.

Dan

subzali
12-10-2013, 07:37 AM
Brant said it's the best campground in the district

MDH33
12-12-2013, 12:51 PM
Maybe we could drag it onto a flat bed and pull it up to Waldorf? It would be great for target practice.

:bolt:

Squishy!
12-13-2013, 09:36 AM
Maybe we could drag it onto a flat bed and pull it up to Waldorf? It would be great for target practice.

:bolt:

That's the ticket. :eek:

:lmao:

Tramontana
12-14-2013, 09:51 PM
...and I would be glad to lend a hand with the dismantling of this for the goodwill that it should generate.

I am a 1/2 owner of a Makita 14" demolition saw, and will be glad to bring this to whatever work party(ies) that might happen. That said, Oxy/Acetylene cutting torches would probably be the most expedient approach to this work. I have access to a couple of cutting torches and could probably borrow enough for two cutting operations.

I'm glad to donate the saw time, and even the pre-mix fuel, but from the looks of the photos, this will take lots of cutting wheels and/or oxy/acetylene gases to accomplish, and I could not donate these materials on my own. I "might" be able to drum up some donations but it would be awesome if perhaps the USFS can get some match funds for the consumables costs?

Also, given the size of the culvert, it might be necessary to have a couple sections of scaffold for removing the top sections of material safely.

Lastly, before the club agrees to this project, I would suggest that a number of very important questions would need to be asked and officially answered, such as;

Are there environmental regulations/requirements that would be triggered by cutting this in situ?
Schedule/timeline requirements?
Liability/release waivers?
Disposal of material?
Will any recycling companies accept the waste? If not, where will it be disposed of?
Final clean up requirements?

Cheers! :thumb:

subzali
12-23-2013, 04:20 PM
Thanks for the input Boz! I'm sure Dan and others will take all that into consideration when the time comes! :thumb:

JadeRunner
12-24-2013, 03:34 PM
My Dad took some pictures of it. It looks like the nuts and bolts above ground are in pretty good shape.

60wag
12-24-2013, 04:27 PM
An impact wrench would make quick work of most if it. Now whoever ends up inside of the pipe holding a wrench on the backside might was some serious hearing protection.

AxleIke
12-26-2013, 11:19 AM
Wow, yeah, impacts would be a good choice. Guess we'll have to see.

I think everyone is going to want some good ear protection.

DanS
01-10-2014, 09:19 AM
Still slowly thinking about this one.

I went out last week and tried some of the not-so-clean nuts and bolts. Will definitely require impact wrenches, and those rusted nuts may be much easier to break with a chisel (yeah, I know they are big bolts and would take a while to chisel off).

Dan

AxleIke
01-10-2014, 10:11 AM
Still slowly thinking about this one.

I went out last week and tried some of the not-so-clean nuts and bolts. Will definitely require impact wrenches, and those rusted nuts may be much easier to break with a chisel (yeah, I know they are big bolts and would take a while to chisel off).

Dan

I can bring my CO2 tank and we can use an air hammer with a chisel if needed.

AxleIke
01-10-2014, 10:11 AM
Still slowly thinking about this one.

I went out last week and tried some of the not-so-clean nuts and bolts. Will definitely require impact wrenches, and those rusted nuts may be much easier to break with a chisel (yeah, I know they are big bolts and would take a while to chisel off).

Dan

BTW, what size are the bolts nuts? Would 3/4 drive stuff be more appropriate? All I've got is 1/2" stuff.

DanS
01-10-2014, 10:47 AM
BTW, what size are the bolts nuts? Would 3/4 drive stuff be more appropriate? All I've got is 1/2" stuff.

3/4 drive might be more appropriate. But all I have is 1/2" myself. I think 1/2" would work though, they appear to be 3/4" bolts, based upon my eyeball.

Dan

Tramontana
01-10-2014, 10:16 PM
I can probably bring a 7/8" electric impact rotary hammer with my Honda generator.