View Full Version : 22R-E Chain Cost and Advice
02-01-2007, 08:46 AM
I've had next to zero legitimate bites for IFS gears, lockers and tires (the rear RD23/5.29 is the only thing worth anything apparently). I'm just gonna have to face reality and spend new money on the truck. I was hoping to get some money to do the engine right. So I'm setting out a plan to get it running again and am looking for some thoughts and get a handle on how much I need to scrape up, here.
I shouldn't have an major issues with bent valves or anything, which is good. But I did blow a chain link wide open, which means there's probably some metal debris in the pan. It's probably no smaller than the oil pickup can deal with, but should I be worried about it? My pan does not leak now and that to me is not a small factor. Dropping the pan means taking the front diff out, not an insignificant amount of work when you're crawling around in a cramped garage with poor light on a cold garage floor. Also the engine is about 200K old now, which I think is the point IMO where I probably need to be thinking about overhauls of major systems. I'm also assuming at this point that my timing chain cover is still OK, my guides /should/ not have been an issue being metal-backed DOA. I won't know for sure until I take the cover off, though.
So what do you think? Just do the minimum, just new timing gears, chain and gaskets? I will be using OEM parts this time, although I'll probably keep the DOA guides. Everything else will be Toyota.
My compression wasn't great before, but it was even across all 4 cylinders, so I wonder if the stretched timing chain had some affect on the compression numbers?
Should I drop the pan for an inspection?
Think it's worthwhile rebuilding the head? I'm sure the valve springs and seals aren't in great shape anymore. I do get a pretty significant puff of smoke on start up, some of which is probably oil leaked into the combustion chamber. I wasn't planning on a new cam or milling the head, so a rebuild would be just a clean-up and refurbish to stock specs. I know it can't hurt to face the valve seats and replace the valves, but is it worth the time if I'm not doing the bottom end, too? I'm assuming that stuff like built up carbon is going to be on the pistons and rings, too? I've always had to run 91 octane to keep from knocking. What can I expect to spend if I just have the head cleaned up? Do I need a new cam and valves or are the old ones kosher to reuse?
Is it worth pulling the head just to replace the headgasket (i.e. no head rebuild)? I'm consider this route primarily because I'm thinking about pulling the intake plenum off to clean it and the injectors, as well as the throttle body and maybe finally get at that darned fuel filter. If I've got the intake off, it shouldn't be much more work just to get at the headgasket. I replaced the exhaust manifold with the header about 2 years ago, so hopefully the liberal use of copper anti-seize will make removing that less painful.
Just trying to figure out where to go from here.
02-01-2007, 09:23 AM
I just went through a broken timing chain on my 22RE with 190K. I decided not to take the head off, because I had a rebuilt head put on a year and half ago. I bought the chain, cover, guides, water pump, oil pump, basically the whole kit! Spent all the time replacing that stuff, went to start it up......
And guess what?????? The valves were bent in the head! Since, I've replaced the head recently, and have a small crack in the block anyway.....
I'm replacing the engine this summer... I thought I could get away with just replacing the chain and save some time......this might be a good time for a rebuild if you have 200k....My advice for what it is worth.......
My experience is that getting a valve job done when you have the head off is money well spent. If you take it to a good machine shop, they can tell you whether the seats/valves/cam need to be replaced. I've refreshed engines several times with a valve job, and occasionally a new head. I've only done the bottom end once, with new rings, crank bearings etc.
Your biggest expense will be the valve job. My memory may be dated, but last time I did a 2F head it cost about $200. The rest of the expense will be your labor.
Don't know if this is true with the 22R-E engines, but with 2F engines there is a big difference between the Toyota head gasket and aftermarket ones. I found this out the hard way. :(
02-01-2007, 10:29 AM
I doubt a stretched timing chain would affect compression. With the smoke at startup, I'd get the head done. 200K is a lot of miles. At least replace the valve stem seals...
I would use genuine Toyota parts, too, after my Japanese-made '5-star' brand timing chain tensioner got noisy after 20K miles. (this is typical, I hear). It would clatter on startup as the chain hit the case, and take 15-20 seconds to quiet down. The 5-start stuff is far cheaper than the Toyota parts, but you apparently get what you pay for.
My experience was on an '89 4Runner with 200K on the 22RE
02-04-2007, 11:21 AM
First of all, what happened? Something sudden? (Sounds like?).
Anyhoo, first of all, the pan can come off without pulling the diff. I did it on my daughter's 85 runner.
Second of all, quick and easy way to check for bent valves is compression test. If they're bent, there will be no compression in that pot.
Third, as has been mentioned above, genuine OEM are best, particularly for the chain tensioner. The aftermarket ones that come in the kits are generally only good for 20k or so. I've been told of ways to do the chain without pulling the head, but if I were you I'd pull the head anyway. That way you can make all the inspections and measurements the FSM specifies to determine if the head needs more work. At a minimum you can re-surface the valves and seats, replace the stem seals, check the springs and guides. Not to mention clean the carbon off!
If I were you, I'd call Joe Calleja at CTS at (303) 838-4772 and pick his brain. He has always been right-on in his advice to me, and won't steer you into anything that costs more than it has to. And he'll give you options should you choose to have him do any or all of the work. Good luck!
02-23-2007, 07:45 AM
Glad I came upon this, I am about to save you beaucoup bucks and you will have OEM quality. Not 'OEM-like', but OEM or better than. I am not hyping.
Go to Enginebuilder. LC Engineering and DOA hate the man, which I take as an endorsement. Ted there has been building 22REs since dirt got hard. His parts are OEM or better than, and for a very nice price. His son, Todd, now runs the company but both offer very good advice. Ted was capable of building a normally aspirated 22RE that produced 140HP at the crank and was still ideal for trails. And you couldn't ask for a nicer guy who will do a better job of standing behind his products - not so his competition.
Note the prices, especially on a full master kit:
Note the price on a NEW HEAD with OVERSIZED SS VALVES that has been thickened in places the stock head tends to fail (coolant passages). These are rock-solid heads. This saves you all the machine work, and gives you better than stock performance with an RV cam from Ted that is very, very trail-able.
You've already pulled the pan, goodonya. I know lots of guys won't replace the HG, but that seems foolish to me: you need to check the block deck and head for utter flatness, and as mentioned 200K without doing a valve job is asking to go back in there and do all that nasty work again.
Now pull the motor, strip it down and take it to a machine shop, buy Ted's head, Ted's RV cam, and his master kit (minus the parts you won't need because of the new head), put it back together, just try to wipe that grin off your face after you take it for a test drive, and be the envy of every mini driver in the club.
Just a note: I am an avid OEM Toyota-only parts guy. But I would rather buy from Ted than Toyota, and I would follow his advice over anyone else on the planet. That is a significant endorsement.
All you minitruck guys need to surf 4x4wire.com occasionally, lots of good knowledge about minis there. [shameless plug]
02-23-2007, 07:56 AM
DOA will do a complete long block for $3250 and a short block for $2200 with cast pistons and $2800 with forged. LCE is $3500 for a long block with forged pistons and $2000 for a short block (cast pistons I think).
As King Arthur put it....
RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
02-23-2007, 08:04 AM
I've had next to zero legitimate bites for IFS gears, lockers and tires (the rear RD23/5.29 is the only thing worth anything apparently).
I've got a friend who may be keenly interested in the 5.29s, front and rear, IFS. PM me.
02-23-2007, 03:44 PM
As King Arthur put it....
Yep, that's what I've run into! For that price you might as well do a 3.4 conversion....Trying to find a good low mile LC Engine or other well built engine on the boards. Any ideas on where to get a good 22RE....
Did you determine that the bottom end needs rebuilding? Is there something wrong with the block? Even if you need rings, why buy a short block? Pull the motor and rebuild it yourself. With a 2F, it's possible to rebuild the motor while leaving it in the engine bay. Not sure about the 22R-E, although I'd bet it's easier to pull than a 2F.
Or maybe I'm missing something here -- I'm not always the brightest bulb on the shelf.
02-26-2007, 11:14 AM
I'm going with Toyota short block parts I think, which means I'm sure the price isn't gonna be cheap. I'm not buying into the 'as good as OEM' statements, that's what was said about the timing parts that caused this headache. It doesn't go in the bottom end unless the box says Toyota or Aisin.
You're right. Engnbldr stuff isn't as good as OEM.
It's better. And cheaper. No kiddin'.
I know lots of folks say that and don't deliver, but that doesn't mean the claim is prima facie false in itself. Ted's stuff is proven and he stands behind it.
So what's your compression? What's the leak down?
BTW, a rebuild in the engine compartment of a 22RE is about 14.765 times as hard as on an engine stand. Shoot, we are even pulling the motor to do my son's timing chain. (Of course, he needs a new rear mainseal... but still...).
02-26-2007, 12:36 PM
No touchee. Golden. My son's is 138 across all four at 150K, my other son's is less at 100K. Lookit what you just saved!
I forget, are you burning oil? If so, call Ted or Todd and ask about the adviseability of just rings. Common in motorcycles, not so much in cars, so ask 'em. That assumes the blue is happening on accel, rather than decel. If decel, your new head will take care of it.
Ted's been around doing motors for over 40 years. Used to race dirt track on built Chevies and Fords. He's BTDT. He started building 22REs when they were a new design, and loves the stout little motors for what they can do reliably. Chat with either Ted or Todd and go with their advice, tell them your constraints and plans.
02-27-2007, 07:17 AM
He's good at securing quality suppliers' direct relationships (no middlemen). He doesn't actually do any casting or forging, but he is very picky. Not a big ego either, though IMHO he could be justifiably.
Your startup smoke does sound like valve seals/guides. The 'all the time' black smoke sounds like something else is going on. How clean is it on emissions testing? Sounds rich. Is it injected? EGR function? Somebody who has more tuning experience than me with 22REs should pipe in here. Run that one past Ted or Todd also.
Shouldn't even need 91 octane, much less ping on it. Especially at this altitude.
02-27-2007, 08:34 AM
140 is good. Recall you need to add 15% to your measured numbers for elevation at 5000'.
02-27-2007, 08:55 AM
Dave, in a week or two we are going to pull my younger son's motor to do the timing chain, HG, and rear mainseal (and most likely clutch while we are in there). You are welcome to come over to our motor pullin' party if you like.
This weekend and maybe next we will be doing a SAS on my older son's truck too.
03-04-2007, 05:13 PM
Dave, in order to get it out you will at a minimum have to pull the front grill area; kinda like when you came by when I was trying to stab my tranny and you convinced me to bite the bullet and pull my seats and tranny hump to get at it from the top.
Having done it both ways on Land Cruisers, pulling the engine with tranny and t-case attached versus disengaging the tranny from the bellhousing, I will report that both seem to be about the same work/effort. Extrapolating these experiences to a 22R/22RE with tranny/t-case, I would suggest one of those attachments to the cherry picker which moves the center point back and forth; I found it invaluable when I pulled and reinstalled my F with tranny/t-case attached. Good luck and happy cruisin'!
03-05-2007, 07:18 AM
No, you don't have to pull the grille with a 22RE. Just remove the fan and pull the hood and the radiator. To undo the bellhousing bolts at the top (x2), undo the crossmember (4 bolts), lower the tranny onto a jackstand, use about three of the longest extensions you can find with a swivel fitting (not a u-joint wobbly, too wobbly) right at a 17mm socket IIRC (I don't think it's 19, could be wrong).
Once the bolts are out, you can reattach the crossmember if you want. Obviously you want a jack under the front of the tranny. I wouldn't pull engine + tranny out in one unit personally, adds to the difficulty and maneuverability.
03-05-2007, 09:15 AM
I'd see if you can rent or borrow one. They take up a lot of garage space.
03-05-2007, 03:33 PM
Anyone have a recommendation on an engine stand?
I will give you and old three wheel stand I don't use anymore. It fine for small block chitty's and normal engines but way to tippy for Cruiser engines. I'll bring it Wednesday if you want.
03-06-2007, 07:26 AM
I had a 5VZ-FE on an HB cheapie. The only complaint was the wheels didn't like it. It stressed it but it worked.
03-12-2007, 08:34 AM
You've got the disease!
I ride Light Rail past a powdercoat outfit east of Santa Fe every day, just north of Belleview IIRC. I'd say, commodity service these days.
03-12-2007, 09:44 PM
looks farmiliar, i just did this to my brothers truck 89 runner with 22re.. The guides broke in the same exact way.. Except yours apear to be the Steel backed guides with non oem bolts.. i guess the steel ones are not that much better than the stockers.. The timming chaing cover looked just like yours, Replace it with a new one! $50 is what i paid.. toyotacarpart.com (local in CSprings)
03-13-2007, 01:40 PM
Engnbldr.com can get you a new timing cover for cheap too...
03-15-2007, 01:49 PM
engnbldr.com. They won't do you wrong. Really. I would never spend $300 on a timing cover.
A Toy shortblock was $1400 employee cost about 4 years ago, so it couldn't have gone up $600 retail since then...
Ouch. Looks like a rebuild is in your future.
03-15-2007, 01:57 PM
Yeah, these guides are not stock. I installed them a few years ago, they are DOA metal backed ones. They went 50K miles.
You might want to look at your tensioner. Imagine how short lived the stock plastic guides would have been!
03-15-2007, 02:03 PM
Ouch. Looks like a rebuild is in your future.
I thought the compression was good? If the hone marks are still visible, I'm not sure I would necessarily rebuild it - especially if the budget is tight. Just sayin'.
But a quality master kit with pistons is on sale for $219, the additional cost of machining would not be outlandish. Especially if all that is needed is a hone to break the ridge. You could go with the new head casting, thicker than stock where it needs to be, with oversized SS valves and an RV cam, make rockin' power, and still never come close to the price of the new shortblock!
03-15-2007, 06:31 PM
Hey Dave, speaking of the local guy, what did Joe Calleja say?
03-20-2007, 07:59 AM
Really, don't lump Ted in with LCE or DOA. Not the same at all. I can point to several who have been burned by LCE and DOA, but not even one by EB. I am extremely picky (ask Rude-boy) but would not hesitate to use Ted or Todd's parts and advice. And it just so happens they are the most competitive, not by cutting quality, but by direct vendor relationship.
Remember, the 'mother ship' uses all kinds of vendors for subassemblies, they have to be within spec but even that gets missed sometimes (headgasket vendors from 1990-1996 come to mind, eh? Even affected the 5VZ, it was definitely the HG in that case).
A man designed it, a man made it, a man can screw it up - and a man can fix it too. Simple assemblies. Measure twice. Don't cut corners and buy from those who also do not cut corners.
On your tensioner, the bleed hole can get plugged, clearances can get loose, etc. Your oil pump can get weary too! Didn't know about the knock, but if you can get a turbo pump while you are at it, that might be worthwhile.
That head, if you got it loaded with the slightly oversize SS valves, and the RV cam, and fresh rockers, will make significant power increases without stressing anything at all, and will do so for a couple hundred thousand miles if you go with Ted's master kit and the machine work on the shortblock is done right.
Three Wheel Ben
03-20-2007, 08:19 AM
I am extremely picky (ask Rude-boy) but would not hesitate to use Ted or Todd's parts and advice.
I used to live in pdx and ted was the toy specialist when it came to engine work. Haven't heard anything bad yet.
So Dave, did you pull the trigger? It was a cool coincidence to run into you at Burt.
03-25-2007, 11:20 PM
So I have the short block and head covered now. Still need to source a few parts.
Timing chain cover - Engnbldr or IPW (even the guy who bought a brand new factory short block thinks the OEM cover at $300 is too much). Might hit Yota Yard for a used Aisin one, though.
Timing chain guides - OEM Aisin or metal ones. Ted sells Japanese-made w/ driver's side metal, LCE has a full metal kit and since my original OEM ones lasted almost 3 times as long as the metal ones, I might just do all Toyota parts again.
Clutch - 99.995% sure it will be a OEM unit, although now that I'll break that magical 100 HP threshold, maybe I should be using a Centerforce! Just kidding. I can't see any reason not to do Toyota.
No advantage whatsoever to a Toyota timing chain cover. I'd rather go new than used personally, but YMMV.
I can promise you that the plastic OEM guides did not outlast the metal ones because of the guides! It was another cause.
Clutch- Toyota reman. is your best cost/benefit choice.
So you bought a Toyota shortblock? Wow...:confused: It will be good, but... $$$.
03-26-2007, 06:47 AM
Let me guess...
You're an engineer, ain'tcha? :lmao:
03-26-2007, 08:04 AM
If Dave did anything to my 2F, I can tell you he did it correctly. What am I up to now Dave? 500,000 miles?
03-26-2007, 08:22 AM
BTW, I was just teasing.
Only an engineer would have a 25 year plan including the final debugging of the (by then) antique 5VZ.:p:
It should be a bunch lighter by then too! All the heavy bodywork will have been returned to nature.:lmao:
03-26-2007, 11:27 AM
Me too. Obviously you can't go wrong with new rockers. (BTW, new tappets are cheap and a very good mtce. item to do now.)
But Ted has waaaaaay more experience than I do with such things.
If you follow his advice, and the cam craps out because of it, you can expect a branny new cam. But like I've said, Ted has forgotten more than most folks will ever know about 22REs.
I used to work at the rocket ranch. QA for Peacekeeper, flight and ground equipment, as well as electronic welded assemblies, 5 lb. NOT gates, etc. for Titan launch vehicles. They had to contract with Motorola to retool for 1960s transistors that had already qual tested.
I came up with an idea for cleaning leads. They evaluated it, and the program gave us 10% of the first year's savings for any ideas.
Two months after I quit I got a check for $1K. Not a bad idea I guess...:cheers:
03-27-2007, 03:21 PM
yeah. Bill only does things one way, the right way. I on the other hand, only do things the hard way.
03-27-2007, 10:07 PM
Thereby saving me from having to do so.... :D
04-10-2007, 01:49 PM
Came across this. Great tech from the demiurge of 22RE buildups hisself!
04-11-2007, 08:42 AM
I'm betting you're gonna be really happy with the improvement in power... Ted is quite good at porting those heads. It's really easy to over port the 22RE and make it run like crap for trail use.
04-12-2007, 05:13 PM
AAAmetric (http://www.aaametric.com/products.htm) on Lipan will have what you need.
04-12-2007, 07:02 PM
Dave, I *think* I have a 12x1.25 tap I got for chasing brake caliper mounting threads. They're about like hen's teeth, let me go go check and get back with you.
04-12-2007, 07:33 PM
Hey Dave, word to the wise: forget the head bolts. ARP studs are far superior. Reliable torque values, no worries about hydraulic lock, they guide the head on for reassembly, no stripped threads... no downside. Not that expensive either.
04-13-2007, 07:42 AM
...Also they don't have the necked down section near the top, which aligns with the rocker arm girdle were the oil flows through. This concerned me, so I talked to Ted about it. Seems sometimes the right combination of top end assembly can cause an oil starvation on the exhaust side of the cam because of the flow restriction. I just went with a new set of bolts, didn't want to be a test case. ARP says on a completely stock engine they'll probably be OK, but they could not say with the Topline Pro head casting that it would or wouldn't be an issue. They just never had tested that combo. The set cost $129 from Summit and a stock set of head bolts is about $50. Ted said he was working on a set of studs with the necked down section, so when he gets them sourced and ready I might replace them with a set of those....
Well, good to know! That there doesn't sound like paranoia, more like due diligence. Purdy block.
04-13-2007, 08:34 AM
Actually, you probably will not want to disturb your headgasket at that point in time...
04-18-2007, 09:01 AM
Witchhunter rocks! I have nothing but the highest praise for them! Fast, easy to deal with, and reasonable in cost....."who could ask for anything more?" ;)
04-23-2007, 07:48 AM
Gotta love a clean engine and engine bay! Drool....
05-08-2007, 08:16 AM
Hey, taking the oil filter apart ain't obsessive....
That's weird. I don't have any good ideas, but no, you shouldn't expect a brand new engine to run like crap. It should be like a brand new car off the lot.
05-30-2007, 01:41 PM
Your rings will not seat until you romp on it. You may have missed the moment if you were too conservative on combustion pressures (skinny pedal). They will seat eventually, unless you use synthetic.
Aside from that, any possibility that a vacuum line is off, or misrouted?
I ran mine without the idle return dashpot with no issues (it was sticking, making a fast idle). Did you shim the head to make up for the loss of material? If not, possibly cam timing?
05-30-2007, 09:10 PM
Can't say about the rings. On first start I ran it unloaded for about 15 minutes varying between 2000 and 3000 RPM. Full throttle seats the rings. It is the combustion pressure against new honing that does it. It is a fair assumption that yours are not seated yet.
Vacuum lines are certainly a concern. I labeled, drew sketches and snapped photos of everything. I didn't have any plumbing that didn't match a port in the end. Is it perfect? Shrug. I think my emissions stuff is hooked up right...
I'd start looking right there.
The block deck was not machined (it was brand new Toyota). The head is Engnbldr's brand new casting and so I assumed it was the same height as stock. Ted never recommended changing cam timing when I asked him and so I'm running stock timing gears. The head gasket is stock Toyota. Would a cam timing error manifest itself at idle or across all RPMs? If neither the block nor head were machined, how would I know how much to adjust the cam timing? You would not need to. Sorry, I forgot you used a new casting.
I'm still not sure that my TPS is good. It's a few years old and I cleaned my TB with it still on. So it's possible that cleaner has contaminated or corroded the TPS PCB. I'm planning on replacing that as a matter of course. But I don't plan to shotgun any other parts besides that. Nothing during calibration or checkout pointed to it definitively, but so much of the ECU decisions are based on the TPS that I want to at least eliminate that.4Crawler (the TLCA minitruck troubleshooter guy, Roger Brown) has a TPS procedure on his website that is bulletproof. I would not even replace the TPS unless it fails that test. You have something amiss, and most likely simple.
Change your oil soon.
05-31-2007, 08:58 AM
You're actually being harder on the motor than a 17 yr. old!
Google Motoman Break-in for an eye opener.
The problem with changing so many things is, your variables are multiplying. I would be very very hesitant to twiddle with the AFM, many 22REs have died that way. Check with Ted or Todd with your symptoms.
05-31-2007, 02:15 PM
Good instinct. Several folks have lost their ring lands doing two clicks on the AFM - as read on 4x4wire.com and confirmed with the victim and with Ted. Sumthin' else is going on. Didn't know you did Motoman, so it is unlikely to be your rings (even more unlikely, that is...).
05-31-2007, 10:35 PM
From a fellow over-thinker.....:beer:
05-05-2008, 02:20 PM
I'm curious how many miles it takes for the rings to seat in a Rebuilt motor. I have 3,800 miles and thought mine had seated. However, I had to add another quart of oil in this weekend. That makes 4.3 qts. with 3,800 miles on the engine. No visible leaks or plumes of smoke coming out???????????????????
05-05-2008, 02:34 PM
Should be seated within 1K miles, FAIK. Sooner with a Motoman break-in. Wouldn't run synth until 10K though.
05-05-2008, 02:45 PM
Should be seated within 1K miles, FAIK. Sooner with a Motoman break-in. Wouldn't run synth until 10K though.
So in other words, it's the block?
05-05-2008, 06:06 PM
Dunno. Could be so many things. *Probably* rings? Valve seals?
05-05-2008, 08:41 PM
Is it stock rings or is it aftermarket rings? There is really a difference. Oil comsumption is also based on type of usage. When are you comsuming more oil, Hard throttle, hill climbing for long distance or ??????. Was the engine rebuilt with Toyota stock parts or aftermarket? later Robbie
05-05-2008, 08:46 PM
Aftermarket, Chromo Rings(which I understand take longer to seat). I live up in St. Mary's so I'm constantly climbing hills. Engine came from Toyota Car Parts in CS.
05-05-2008, 08:47 PM
do a leakdown test on it..
we used to break in motorcycle engines with the full throttle technique.
and all other motors inevitably were broken in the same way.. .even if we were kidding ourselves and trying to be easy on them, we ended up in a drag race.
05-05-2008, 10:15 PM
Looks like ITM Engine Components was used for the internals(pistons,etc)
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