PDA

View Full Version : need some help on vibration issues..


rover67
11-13-2007, 09:43 PM
hello all,

new to the area and excited about meeting new people.. went to the meeting this past wednseday an met a few new people, looking to be an active member of the club soon.

anyways, i have a techical question... i just got done doing a v-8 swap, 4 runner breaks, rebuild both axles, did the t case and insltalled a h55f, and did rebuilt driveshafts... all in one fail swoop.

the truck has some weird vibrations at 45-65mph (indicated) and i'd love for someobody to drive it or ride in it and help me figure out what the heck is going on. anybody interested? free ride in a 5.3 liter 300hp cruiser... i am in lafayette, co. it made it 1500 miles from memphis doing 80mph the whle way so it can't be that bad but i just dont know. also, need to find a place to put the front end through its paces to see if i put the oil pan on the engine far enough away from the axle to keep it from hitting... i think the dude that did my third member in the rear may have not set it up right,

anyone... bueler....

MDH33
11-13-2007, 09:52 PM
Missed the meeting, so didn't meet you. Can you tell me what kind of vehicle it is????

:o

Uncle Ben
11-13-2007, 09:53 PM
hello all,

new to the area and excited about meeting new people.. went to the meeting this past wednseday an met a few new people, looking to be an active member of the club soon.

anyways, i have a techical question... i just got done doing a v-8 swap, 4 runner breaks, rebuild both axles, did the t case and insltalled a h55f, and did rebuilt driveshafts... all in one fail swoop.

the truck has some weird vibrations at 45-65mph (indicated) and i'd love for someobody to drive it or ride in it and help me figure out what the heck is going on. anybody interested? free ride in a 5.3 liter 300hp cruiser... i am in lafayette, co. it made it 1500 miles from memphis doing 80mph the whle way so it can't be that bad but i just dont know. also, need to find a place to put the front end through its paces to see if i put the oil pan on the engine far enough away from the axle to keep it from hitting... i think the dude that did my third member in the rear may have not set it up right,

anyone... bueler....


Do the rear dif gears "sing?" Vibrations usually come from balance rather than improper setup. I'm just guessing but did the plane of the powertrain change? In other words does the engine sit higher or lower than original? (same question for the tranny/T-case.) Use an angle finder on the rear output flange of the t-case and then check the pinion flange on the rear diff....I've got a $10 spot that the vertical planes of those two flanges are differant! :cheers:

Rezarf
11-13-2007, 09:56 PM
Welcome man, I don't know about helping you diagnose your vibrations, but I will rip on your new engine in a cruiser for you :D

Does it only happen between the speeds listed or does it do it at other speeds as well?

rover67
11-13-2007, 10:04 PM
it is an fj60, sorry about that, and thanks for all the attentiion!!

honestly, i dont knwo if the angles changed much, i dont think they did since the i tied to keep the centerline of the engine (crank) in the same spot as original...

MDH33
11-13-2007, 10:13 PM
Could be the pinion angles as UB mentioned, also makes me think about improperly balanced or overly worn tires. My 60 was just cured of the shakes by adding some new properly balanced rubber. :thumb:

rover67
11-13-2007, 10:15 PM
i got new bfg at's right before i left memphis.....

Uncle Ben
11-13-2007, 10:59 PM
it is an fj60, sorry about that, and thanks for all the attentiion!!

honestly, i dont knwo if the angles changed much, i dont think they did since the i tied to keep the centerline of the engine (crank) in the same spot as original...


Even if you slightly changed the centerline....it only takes 2* to start causing vibrations!

rover67
11-14-2007, 07:17 AM
okey dokie. i'll swing under there and put angle finders on there to see.

one other thing that i noticed, if the t case is in 4wd but the hubs in front are not locked, i get another horrible vibration from the front. this one feels like something is loose though... so i'll look for loose stuff when i flip under it. i'll stop by lowes at lunch today and get an angle finder..

subzali
11-14-2007, 07:43 AM
Heya, I met you for a quick minute right before you left, now I forgot your name :o. Welcome to the board!

Does this vibration (the one you just mentioned) also happen if the hubs are locked but the t-case is not engaged? The same items should be spinning except the t-case output shaft, don't know if it will help you narrow it down at all. Check for loose springs, knuckle studs, etc.

Good luck!

rover67
11-14-2007, 08:03 AM
Name's marco capote.

man, it is probably going to be hard to remember everybody elses names! i'll play around with the front end tonight, maybe at lunch and see..

nakman
11-14-2007, 09:12 AM
Welcome Marco! What about your driveshaft.. it's not "out of phase," is it? That would definitely give you the vibes you mention.. if one pinion was 90 from the the other, for example Did you have the driveshaft apart?

Hulk
11-14-2007, 09:42 AM
Name's marco capote.

man, it is probably going to be hard to remember everybody elses names! i'll play around with the front end tonight, maybe at lunch and see..

That's one of the reasons we have everyone introduce themselves at the beginning of every meeting. It seems redundant if you know everyone, but if you're new to the club, it can be very helpful.

rover67
11-14-2007, 10:37 AM
yep problem number one. i missed the first part of the meeting because i didnt realize golden was that far away from lafayette. but yeah, i agree, before long with that kind of repitition i'll remember!

The driveshafts are not out of phase, that was one of the first things i checked hoping to have an easy solution..

Red_Chili
11-14-2007, 11:08 AM
DS balance, pinion vertical plane vs. tcase vertical plane (as mentioned...).

U-joint condition too, you'd be surprised what that can do with no other symptoms.

I generally shoot for 2* down at the rear pinion, as there is usually *some* axle wrap even going down the highway. Regards your front noise, I get that too, but because of a long travel spline (some play is inherent and it acts a bit like an unbalanced shaft).

Jacket
11-14-2007, 12:37 PM
Another welcome. I wasn't at the meeting last week, but nice to see a fellow Lafayette'ian here.

Our trucks are pretty different, but as it relates to vibrations, I have a few..... I have pinion angle issues on my rear shaft that creates low speed vibration (around 10mph +-). My higher speed vibrations (45-55) are definitely an issue with wheel/tire balancing. Vibrations mostly go away at interstate speeds, which is probably why I'm being lazy about them.

I've shimmed my rear diff around 2-2.5*, but I can't get the vibrations to go away (unless I pull out the OME suspension).

rover67
11-14-2007, 01:26 PM
ok, got under there and measured it at lunch, looks like the pinion is about 4 degrees up from the t case flange when the truck is just sitting there unloaded. should i try to shim it with the same type of caster shims that there are available for the front end or should i just accept it the way it is?

all of the u joints were replaced with factory toyota ones when i rebuilt the driveshafts, also had them balanced. they both took a little bit of weight, but not much.

the front just rattles and shakes when the t-case is in 4wd and the hubs are not locked, and has a higher frequency vibration (thats more of a buzz) when the front hubs are locked and it's not in 4wd, and when hubs are locked and it's in 4wd. i'll get under there again tonight maybe to see if there is anything loose.

60wag
11-14-2007, 02:42 PM
The vibration w/ tcase in 4wd and hubs unlocked is odd...
You said you rebuilt the front axle. Did you reinstall the outer c clips on the ends of the outer axles (birfs)? Did you stake the pinion nut on the front diff? Have you confirmed that there is no radial play in both the pinion flange and the front tcase flange? When you had the front axle apart, did you check the condition of the brass bushings in the front hubs?

rover67
11-14-2007, 02:57 PM
well, here goes.. i remember doing the c clips in the hubs. I didnt take the pinion out (or rebuild that diff since it ran fine before i tore everything down). the bushings in the front hubs looked pretty new actually. very little wear. i need to check the flanges for radial slop. will get under there and wiggle them tonight.

Uncle Ben
11-14-2007, 03:56 PM
well, here goes.. i remember doing the c clips in the hubs. I didnt take the pinion out (or rebuild that diff since it ran fine before i tore everything down). the bushings in the front hubs looked pretty new actually. very little wear. i need to check the flanges for radial slop. will get under there and wiggle them tonight.


Fronts driveshafts are much tougher to keep vibes down on lifted trucks unless you change the caster angles by cutting and turning the knuckles! A common solution for wagons especially is running a CV joint at the t-case. 4* is not horribly bad unless it's a positive 4* (pinion high vrs low) Rear shims are iffy as they deal with constant torque loading. I suggest getting 4* shims and shimming the rear axle to get your planes parallel. If the vibes go away then plan on repairing the problem by relocating the spring pads on the axle by the same * that it took to smooth it out. Rotational vibrations are caused from inconsistencies. Example....T-case flange is -4*(down) tilt pinion flange is +4*tilt drive shaft is at 4* angle....-4 + +4 cancel each other out, driveshaft has no imbalance....no vibration. T-case 0*, Pinion +4* drive shaft at 4* angle....4's again cancel each other but the O* pinion has no way to cancel so you have a balance inconsistency = vibration.....solution - add CV joint which cases two joints to each take 2* of angle....4's cancel each other out again. Clear as mud? :confused: :cheers:

rover67
11-14-2007, 04:03 PM
so how many people just live with it? anywon car to do a ride along to tell me if I am being too picky? i just want to make sure it dosen't have a vibration that causes damage..

Uncle Ben
11-14-2007, 04:06 PM
so how many people just live with it? anywon car to do a ride along to tell me if I am being too picky? i just want to make sure it dosen't have a vibration that causes damage..


Is it harmonic or do ya just feel it?

60wag
11-14-2007, 05:02 PM
What year is you're 60? Does it have the front shaft CV joint?

rover67
11-14-2007, 06:13 PM
its an 85.. it has the front driveshaft with u joints. it is pretty shaky. i mean what i am thinking is the rear end just wasn't set up right... but i dont know.

rover67
11-20-2007, 02:13 PM
well, looks like everything is pretty tight. I may shim the rear axle to see if it helps, but i am just thinking i may leave it the way it is and forget about it. thanks for all the insight and the greetings though!

rover67
11-25-2007, 05:08 PM
ok, drove quite a bit in 4wd this past weekend. there is definitly a problem with the transfer case. I get a CRAZY vibration on decel from anything above like 20mph when the thing is in 4wd and the hubs are locked. with it in 2wd and th ehubs locked it vibrates, but i have decided it is a livable amount. I will probably drive it for a while like this avoiding 4wd at higher speeds untill i get a chance to take the transfer case back apart..

leiniesred
11-30-2007, 09:36 PM
My truck isn't stock, and I've had it long enough to try lots of things.
Driveline vibrations certainly are speed specific and probably what you are dealing with. I doubt your diff setup is bad since you drove it so far already.

Step 1 verify driveshaft phasing. The Y parts of the yolks should match. So the ones welded to the driveshaft and slip yolk should be exactly the same. I have a feeling your FRONT problem is driveshaft phasing going by how severe it seems. It is easy to be off a tooth on the driveshaft and it "looks" right until you put the shaft on the ground.

While you have it down on the ground, go have it balanced. maybe you knocked off a weight on a rock?

Still working on the front...The only thing that can be wrong with the t-case is wobbly output bearings at the t-case. I kinda doubt this because if the bearings are this beat, they leak like the Exxon Valdez. EZ to check. just lever on them up and down. On my mini truck, it is easy to change only the front output.

Uncle Ben already described the angles thing. Basically, with single u-joints on each end, the flanges need to be parallel for smooth operation. Remember, with leaf springs there is some axle wrap under "normal" driving so you tend to "pre-tilt" the rear down about 1/2 to a degree or so. Oon the front, caster is WAY more important for day-to-day use.
Get the caster where you want it first. We'll fix your driveline in a second.

Next up, the "double cardan" you've seen 'em. 2 u-joints back-to-back. UB described these too. Forget the physics arguments. Here is how it works. Point the rear diff flange directly at the t-case flange. Put the double cardan at the t-case end. Single U is all you need at the bottom.

OK. How do you decide which way to shim? Down for parallel? or up straight at the t-case flange for a double cardan? Well, which way is closer? Can you afford to have a double cardan driveshaft built? Want to get the nose of your diff out of the rocks and the driveshaft angles reduced? Don't care that the fill hole is now useless on the diff and the anal retentive will tell you your pinion bearing won't get lubedt? shim the nose UP and get the double cardan shaft under there.

Decision made? Uncle Ben also described how shims are frowned upon. Yeah. U-bolts end up too short on 1 side, e-brake cable runs into the leaves, shims split and spit out....sucks. Here is whatcha do. Do the math as best you can and buy shims as close as you can calculate and estimate. get steel shims only. install and TEST. when you find a shim you like, weld them to your perches. the BETTER OPTION: drop the axle. cut off the original spring hangers and weld on new ones. Rotate the axle housing to the new, optimized and tested angle. now when you bolt it up everything fits right and, "Stock". Cutting and welding hangers isn't a big deal really and the result is much better than an angled shim.

On the front: Run the double cardan. even if you have non-parallel flanges, the vibration won't be as bad.

Happy Trails.

rover67
12-02-2007, 08:03 PM
ok, i've decided that the rear is fine after lots of driving like you guys said above. totally livable amount of vibration for me... and like spanky said above th ediff seems to be living fine.

so, i pulled the front ds just now to see if th etransfer case output flange was not wobbly and the nut was tight.. they are both fine... as is the pinion flange in th efront. all tight. anyways.. that basically leaves the front driveshaft. It is pretty solid, no weights have been thrown, and after lots of driving around here in the past week in slushy conditions in and out of 4wd with the front hubs locked i have noticed it only vibrates when th ehubs are locked and it is in 4wd and there is slack in the driveline. with just the hubs locked and the driveshaft freewheeling it never vibrates (not even at 80mph).

So, two questions.

one, does it matter if the slip yoke is near the transfer case or near the diff? it was set up near the diff when i got it, so thats how i put it back.

Two, how much slop in the slip yoke is ok? it has a bit of slop (like wiggles in the direction if you were to try and fold it in half) but i dont know if it is too much. it is less than the rear. I am about to go for a drive and see if it makes the same vibraton in 4wd with the driveshaft removed. hopefully that will certianly rule out the transfer case.

also, the shaft is "in phase" as far as i can tell with it out and looking straight down the flanges.

thanks again,

Marco

rover67
12-02-2007, 08:59 PM
ok, looks like it drives fine with no vibrations in 4wd, so it must be the front driveshaft right? Where do i go to get a double cardan shaft built?

nakman
12-03-2007, 08:49 AM
ok, looks like it drives fine with no vibrations in 4wd, so it must be the front driveshaft right? Where do i go to get a double cardan shaft built?

Sweet! Sounds like you've nailed it! Boulder Driveline is pretty good, and not too far from you... 47th & Foothills Parkway area.

Uncle Ben
12-03-2007, 08:56 AM
Sweet! Sounds like you've nailed it! Boulder Driveline is pretty good, and not too far from you... 47th & Foothills Parkway area.

I don't think Ron has parts to make up a Cruiser DC. If you took him one from a FJ-60 he could rebuild and balance it for you. Nak is right on about Rons work....top notch and fast!

rover67
12-03-2007, 01:26 PM
i have the one that came out of the truck, so i guess i can just take him that one....

hopefully this'll knock it out. thanks for all the help and advice :)

rover67
12-04-2007, 04:38 PM
I took the front shaft to ron at lunch and he said the slip yoke was pretty wobbly. also mentioned that the front half of the slip yoke (female part) looked t be pretty long for a toyota of that year. weird.

anyways, he's looking at it and will probably have an estimate for a rebuilt one tomorrow i'd guess.

Also, he said with the amount of lift on my truck (ome heavy heavy) the double cardan might not be neccesary.

jeeze it'll be nice when this is fixed.

Uncle Ben
12-04-2007, 04:55 PM
Ron is awesome! You will be impressed! :thumb:


I took the front shaft to ron at lunch and he said the slip yoke was pretty wobbly. also mentioned that the front half of the slip yoke (female part) looked t be pretty long for a toyota of that year. weird.

anyways, he's looking at it and will probably have an estimate for a rebuilt one tomorrow i'd guess.

Also, he said with the amount of lift on my truck (ome heavy heavy) the double cardan might not be neccesary.

jeeze it'll be nice when this is fixed.

rover67
12-04-2007, 08:46 PM
yeah, i got that feeling talking to him.. i am excited to see what he builds, but not too excited about paying to have it done (this is the kind of crap yo ukick yourself for.. getting it done halfass then having to do it again)... but i guess she'll be right this time, which is sweet :) it will be worth it.. the sliders are farther out than i thought.

i am tempted to take him the rear shaft since the front shaft that was supposedly rebuilt he said was worn out. lets see how that front turns out.i have high hopes!!

Uncle Ben
12-04-2007, 09:29 PM
yeah, i got that feeling talking to him.. i am excited to see what he builds, but not too excited about paying to have it done (this is the kind of crap yo ukick yourself for.. getting it done halfass then having to do it again)... but i guess she'll be right this time, which is sweet :) it will be worth it.. the sliders are farther out than i thought.

i am tempted to take him the rear shaft since the front shaft that was supposedly rebuilt he said was worn out. lets see how that front turns out.i have high hopes!!

Ron is very honest and he doesn't price gouge so what you'll get back from him is indeed what needed to be done!

rover67
12-04-2007, 09:44 PM
oh, no.. dont take it that way. i trust he will charge whats fair. in fact, i wouldn't mind paying a premium for having that ds perfect.
again, i am excited to have him working on it.

PatrolMan
12-04-2007, 10:23 PM
Anyone who needs a driveshaft shop on the South side of town, I can't say enough about Englewood Driveshaft. They are located near Hampden and Broadway. My dad has taken in multiple Toyota shafts. Happy with them each time and for a reasonable price. Usually no charge just to look it over and give them a feel. PM me if you need directions or anything.

rover67
12-07-2007, 12:49 PM
ok, on the bright side of things... I know the front driveshaft is perfect.

on the not so bright side of things, the vibration is still there.

I wonder if I should try to disconnect the rear drive shaft, put the front on jackstands, and spin it up and see where the vibration is coming from.

or maybe i can hire a midget to hang on underneath the truck.

subzali
07-10-2008, 07:08 PM
Another one from Mark Whatley: May/June 2005 Toyota Trails

"I live in Richmond, CA. I have a rebuilt 1978 FJ40. I love this vehicle and have owned it over 10 years. Bought it off my friend who bought it brand new off the lot in 1978 in New Mexico. It's my peace of mind at night living on the Hayward fault. Over the last 7 years, I've had it customized by a specialty shop in Concord, CA (Chevy V8, power steering, higher suspension, bigger tires). He's extremely talented but we've run into a problem he can't seem to figure out and thus this email. In 4-wheel drive high and low, when you let off the gas there's a horrible vibration noise, but only when you let off the gas and only when you're in 4 wheel drive. It's coming from the front end and Ron has changed out almost everything in an attempt to track it down without any luck. Unfortunately, I'm not a mechanic so I can't really offer him any advice, so I decided to try doing some online research and that's how I found you. If you have any suggestions, it would be most appreciated." Cathy Stonehill

The most likely source of this vibration is an out of phase driveshaft. Both ends of the driveshaft need to be in line with each other. It is common for people to accidently misalign them by 90 degrees if they don't look carefully during reassembly. It is also possible to misalign them by differing amounts if you get careless. The next most likely reason is misalignment of the flanges at each end of the shaft. The faces are supposed to be parallel. Changing of drivetrains, modification of suspension and other similar undertakings can result in inadvertent modification of the relationship between the flanges. You can get away with a small amount of misalignment, on the order of 2-3 degrees. Any more than that causes the type of vibration you mention.

The reason behind these potential causes of vibration is that a u-joint does not transmit the rotation smoothly when it is deflected. The deflection creates a situation where the constant speed that is input to the assembly is changed into a cyclic speeding and slowing scenario. The output from the assembly speeds and then slows twice for each revolution. The greater the deflection, the greater the difference between the fast and slow speed. When all is working as intended, the u-joint assembly at the other end of the shaft receives this pulsing input and changes it back to a smooth output on the other end. For this to happen correctly, the u-joints have to be aligned so that they are trying to pulse in phase with each other. They must also be deflected by the same amount so that the pulse is of the same amount. Any difference in the timing or the size of the pulse creates vibration.

Less likely to produce a severe vibration but a possible source is a very worn pinion bearing (differential) or output bearing (transfer case). A bent or even dented driveshaft can also cause this. But I would look to an out of phase (driveshaft ends) or an out of alignment (flanges) condition.

While I'm thinking about it, an "out of balance" is seldom really the problem. If a driveshaft is straight, as it is supposed to be, it does not need to have weights added to it to "balance it." The purpose of weights is to compensate for slightly less than straight shafts. A shaft that is not straight will vibrate. The weights will dampen this out and offset it due to the vibration they cause themselves. While this makes sense for a factory that is turning out thousands of driveshafts a day, there is no reason that any shaft that is custom made or modified for your rig to need any weights. It is supposed to be straight. Insist on it when you have a shaft made (or lengthened or shortened).

I'm betting on a bad output (t-case) bearing myself, considering mine is more of a growling anyway...