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Uncle Ben
12-04-2007, 04:14 PM
Twas the month before Christmas
When all through our land,
Not a Christian was praying
Nor taking a stand.
See the PC Police had taken away
The reason for "Christmas" - no one could say.
The children were told by their schools not to sing About Shepherds and
Wise Men and Angels and things.
It might hurt people's feelings, the teachers would say.
"December 25th is just a 'Holiday'".
Yet the shoppers were ready with cash, checks and credit, Pushing folks
down to the floor just to get it!
CDs from Madonna, an X BOX, an I-pod...
Something was changing, something quite odd!
Retailers promoted Ramadan and Kwanzaa
In hopes to sell books by Franken & Fonda.
As Targets were hanging their trees upside down, At Lowe's the word
"Christmas" w as nowhere to be found.
At K-Mart and Staples and Penny's and Sears You won't hear the word
Christmas; it won't touch your ears.
Inclusive, sensitive, di-ver-is-ty
Are words that were used to intimidate me.
Now Daschle, Now Darden, Now Sharpton, Wolf Blitzen, On Boxer, on
Rather, on Kerry, on Clinton!
At the top of the Senate there arose such a clatter To eliminate Jesus,
in all public matter.
And we spoke not a word as they took away our faith, Forbidden to speak
of salvation and grace.
The true Gift of Christmas was exchanged and discarded, The reason for
the season stopped before it started.
So as you celebrate 'Winter Break' under your 'Dream Tree', Sipping your
Starbucks, listen to me.
Choose your words carefully; choose what you say.

Shout "MERRY CHRISTMAS", not "Happy Holiday"!

Groucho
12-04-2007, 04:35 PM
Hear, Hear!

corsair23
12-04-2007, 04:42 PM
:thumb:

Merry CHRISTmas to you too :)

Romer
12-04-2007, 04:51 PM
Even I say Merry Christmas.


And tonight is the first night of Hannukah (just in case you were curious)

corsair23
12-04-2007, 04:59 PM
Happy Hannukah Ken! :)

Uncle Ben
12-04-2007, 05:08 PM
Happy Hannukah Ken! :)

Beat me to it.....oh well ......Happy Hannukah to our favorite lawyer (Daniel) and the Romer's! :thumb::thumb:

IanB
12-04-2007, 05:12 PM
What about pagans?

"A winter festival was traditionally the most popular festival of the year in many cultures. Reasons included less agricultural work needing to be done during the winter, as well as people expecting longer days and shorter nights after the winter solstice in the Northern Hemisphere.[1] In part, the Christmas celebration was created by the early Church in order to entice pagan Romans to convert to Christianity without losing their own winter celebrations.[2][3] Most of the most important gods in the religions of Ishtar and Mithra had their birthdays on December 25. Various traditions are considered to have been syncretised from winter festivals including the following:"

Uncle Ben
12-04-2007, 05:26 PM
What about pagans?

Happy Wal-Mart day ya heathen! :p::lmao::lmao: I'm telling your dad on you! ;) :hill:

IanB
12-04-2007, 08:26 PM
Happy Wal-Mart day ya heathen! :p::lmao::lmao: I'm telling your dad on you! ;) :hill:

Why do you hate Wal Mart? :confused:

Actually I just had to throw that out there for fun. When people talk about the "real meaning of christmas" etc I just have to point out that, historically speaking, Christmas is actually a pagan holiday co-opted by the christian church. So if you want the "real" christmas you have to get into animal and human sacrifice, 9 of every species, blood everywhere, totally a mess. I would rather not revive that BS.

I prefer to keep it timely and celebrate solstice with a lot of other people who are celebrating for their own diverse reasons (christmas, hannakuh, kwanzaa, etc). So cheers to all, its midwinter, its snowing in the high peaks, its all good :cheers:



(there is nothing you could tell my father aout me that would shock him) :rolleyes:

Inukshuk
12-04-2007, 09:48 PM
Merry Christmas Kevin! I never mind because I know the sentiment is well intended. People could say a lot worse to me (and not just because I'm an attorney).

But I'd rather not have schools or the senate singing about shepherds or wise men unless equal time is given to all - including pagans, heathens, agnostics, buddhists, etc... So its best to separate Church & State.

Gotta run - off to a TRUE holiday party: The Victoria's Secret Fashion Show!

Rezarf
12-04-2007, 09:52 PM
(there is nothing you could tell my father aout me that would shock him) :rolleyes:

Amen! :D

SROR/AKA 2BAD
12-04-2007, 10:04 PM
Q: But I'd rather not have schools or the senate singing about shepherds or wise men unless equal time is given to all - including pagans, heathens, agnostics, buddhists, etc... So its best to separate Church & State.


and this is why my boy goes to a Christian school.
so he can sing about all these things and pray with his teachers.

:D

Kipper
12-04-2007, 10:14 PM
i frickin' love this time of year. rudolph was on tonight

wesintl
12-04-2007, 10:21 PM
Silver and Gold... Silver and Gold...

I can't wait for Rudolf's shiny new year :hill:

Hulk
12-04-2007, 10:35 PM
I teach Sunday School at our church. We pray before dinner every night. We talk to our kids about Jesus and what He means to us.

When my kids go to school, I want them to focus on learning reading, writing, arithmetic, computers, music, geography, physical education, dance, Spanish, etc.

I don't want them to give equal time to paganism. So I'd prefer to leave all the religion out of my kids' schools. I think between our family and our church, we can do a fine job teaching our kids about our beliefs. We don't need the help of the school district or the gub'mint.

My 6-year-old daughter came home from school confused yesterday because apparently they had talked about different religions in Kindergarten. My wife had to explain that yes, most of these people believe in God, but they don't believe that Jesus is God. It pissed us off -- there was no reason to talk about this with a class of Kindergarten students.

I wish they would separate church and state completely, and leave the churchin' to us. My motto is: "Equal time for all in school, as long as the time is zero."

I never understood the point of trying to force prayer in school. You either pray with your family or you don't pray. School isn't going to teach you values. That's what your parents are for.

ScaldedDog
12-04-2007, 11:52 PM
Q: But I'd rather not have schools or the senate singing about shepherds or wise men unless equal time is given to all - including pagans, heathens, agnostics, buddhists, etc... So its best to separate Church & State.


and this is why my boy goes to a Christian school.
so he can sing about all these things and pray with his teachers.

:D

Yep, my girl, too, for the same reasons! What school? Mine's a junior at Front Range Christian.

Mark

Inukshuk
12-05-2007, 01:09 AM
Victoria's Secret Fashion Show was my religion tonight! That's a place all men can worship! :-) They had part where the models were dressed like ornaments. Made me want to be a tree.....

Uncle Ben
12-05-2007, 01:21 AM
Victoria's Secret Fashion Show was my religion tonight! That's a place all men can worship! :-) They had part where the models were dressed like ornaments. Made me want to be a tree.....


I watched most of that myself! Heidi.....Heidi.....HO! ;)

Red_Chili
12-05-2007, 08:26 AM
Michael Novak has suggested that the most just form of government has a temple at its heart. The centrality of acknowledging the 'Higher'.

Only, from the government's perspective, the temple is empty.

Think about it.

Groucho
12-05-2007, 09:59 AM
You know what is sad is that it is not equal to all. We do away with all that might offend some.

Sounds like were headed for a revelation of Sodom and Gomorrah proportions. All I know is, if the world is going to hell in a bucket, I want to hold the handle.

Groucho
12-05-2007, 11:13 AM
The Supreme Court has ruled that they cannot have a nativity scene in Washington, D.C.
This wasn't for any religious reasons.

They couldn't find three wise men and a virgin.
:lmao::lmao::D:lmao::lmao:

Groucho
12-05-2007, 11:55 AM
Merry Tossmas!! (http://www.citizenlink.org/Stoplight/A000005834.cfm?eafref=1)

IanB
12-05-2007, 01:17 PM
The Supreme Court has ruled that they cannot have a nativity scene in Washington, D.C.
This wasn't for any religious reasons.

They couldn't find three wise men and a virgin.
:lmao::lmao::D:lmao::lmao:

:lmao:

nakman
12-05-2007, 02:40 PM
Alright as long as this thread is already on its way down, may as well give it another shove... :D



Holiday Eating Tips

1. Avoid carrot sticks. Anyone who puts carrots on a holiday buffet table knows nothing of the Christmas spirit. In fact, if you see carrots, leave immediately. Go next door, where they're serving rum balls.

2. Drink as much eggnog as you can. And quickly. Like fine single-malt scotch, it's rare. In fact, it's even rarer than single-malt scotch. You can't find it any other time of year but now. So drink up! Who cares that it has 10,000 calories in every sip? It's not as if you're going to turn into an eggnog-alcoholic or something. It's a treat. Enjoy it. Have one for me. Have two. It's later than you think. It's Christmas!

3. If something comes with gravy, use it. That's the whole point of gravy. Gravy does not stand alone. Pour it on. Make a volcano out of your mashed potatoes. Fill it with gravy. Eat the volcano. Repeat.

4. As for mashed potatoes, always ask if they're made with skim milk or whole milk. If it's skim, pass. Why bother? It's like buying a sports car with an automatic transmission.

5. Do not have a snack before going to a party in an effort to control your eating. The whole point of going to a Christmas party is to eat other people's food for free. Lots of it. Hello?

6. Under no circumstances should you exercise between now and New Year's. You can do that in January when you have nothing else to do. This is the time for long naps, which you'll need after circling the buffet table while carrying a 10-pound plate of food and that vat of eggnog.

7. If you come across something really good at a buffet table, like frosted Christmas cookies in the shape and size of Santa, position yourself near them and don't budge. Have as many as you can before becoming the center of attention. They're like a beautiful pair of shoes. If you leave them behind, you're never going to see them again.

8. Same for pies. Apple. Pumpkin. Mincemeat. Have a slice of each. Or if you don't like mincemeat, have two apples and one pumpkin. Always have three. When else do you get to have more than one dessert? Labor Day?

9. Did someone mention fruitcake? Granted, it's loaded with the mandatory celebratory calories, but avoid it at all cost. I mean, have some standards.

10. One final tip: If you don't feel terrible when you leave the party or get up from the table, you haven't been paying attention. Re-read tips; start over, but hurry, January is just around the corner.
Remember this motto to live by: Have a great Christmas season!

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!

ginericLC
12-05-2007, 07:14 PM
I'm not far off from Matt in how I view schools should be with regards to religion.

However, I get really irate about a lot of things that do go on in schools. Like February, why is Feb. Black History Month? I mean the way I see it there is history and there are people of all races in it. There is no Caucasian History Month, so why should we have black history month? And I'm definitely not saying we should have Caucasian History Month. Maybe I should feel slighted or get upset? And Hispanic, what the hell is a Hispanic? Seriously, there are no people from the land of Hispania or are there? Yes, there are they are from the Iberian Pennisula. So unless that is where your family is from you are incorrect is saying you are Hispanic. I imagine we have a whole bunch of folks misclassified due to some feel good classification started by our government in the 70s. In Idaho, we have people who call themselves Hispanics and we have people who call themselves Mexicans or some that even say Mexican-American. I get tired of everyone having to feel like they have to be so respectful of others that they have to make false holidays and special occasions just to make sure they are included. Why can't folks just be nice to each other without creating false occasions or classifications? For the life of me I can't figure out why we are teaching kids in school that we are so different from one another. It just seems to defy logic and cause more problems.

And Kevin I do appreciate your thoughtfulness about thinking about what the true meaning of Christmas is.

And to those of you celebrating Hanuka (that looks wrong but the spell check changed it), I hope you have a Happy Hanuka. And to those celebrating other festive holidays I hope you all have a good one too. And please don't get upset if I say Merry Christmas to you, I certainly won't get up set if you tell me Happy Hanuka or whatever other holiday you celebrate.

Groucho
12-06-2007, 07:05 AM
"...for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin."
and,
"Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all."

So why do we discriminate against those who celebrate Christmas by keeping it out of stores, greetings, conversation?

Romer
12-06-2007, 09:09 AM
Here is my perspective.

I wish everyone I see around Christmas, a Merry Christmas. I have no issues with Christmas decorations. We drive around and look at the lights and even do stockings on Christmas morning for the kids. To us Christmas is a time to be thankful for what you have and generous to your fellow man or woman. I understand its about the birth of Jesus and the miracle that represents. We may not agree with all the aspects of that, but respect the spirit of it and embrace that spirit during the Christmas season.

Take a look at it from another perspective. Jesus was a practicing Jew. A very wise and good man. The last supper was a passover Seder. So up until his death, Christianity and Judaism were one in the same. After all the old testament is the Jewish Torah.

The festival of lights is based on the story of the Maccabees taking back the Temple from the Persians. This is a pre Jesus event so isn't this also part of the Christian History?

What I am trying to say is we are not all that different.

I respect everyones belief and faith. What bothers me are those that are so fanatical in their belief that they forgo the common courtesy and respect due their fellow man, or woman. You can look at this as prejudice. My grandfather moved here in 1921 from Europe due to strong anti-semitism. The local priest use to yell, "There goes the Christ killer" as he walked to school. Sometimes he was stoned with rocks and hurt badly. As he grew, he was sent to the front lines because he was a Jew and expendable in WWI. At one time an officer held a gun to his head and was going to shoot him simply for being a Jew. Another officer intervened.

An entire section of my family was killed during WWII because other people felt so strongly about their beliefs.

I personally have been exposed to bigotry. People don't realize I am Jewish and say things.

I hold no ill will to anyone else for their belief and do not feel I am so right that you need to change your views to agree with mine. To me the message of religion is morales and compassion. These are things that Parents need to teach their children and set the example. I try and practice what I preach as an example to my family. As a parent, thats the best thing you can do.

I agree strongly with Matt on schools. Keeping religion out of school allows kids to be together with other kids and not feel excluded due to differences in religion. My kids have felt this at previous schools and it upset them so much we moved.

Sorry for the soap box, but my message is we are all very similar and I embrace the spirit of Christmas without agreeing 100% on all the aspects.


I wish you all a very Merry Christmas and I apologize if I offended anyone.

ginericLC
12-06-2007, 10:50 PM
I agree strongly with Matt on schools. Keeping religion out of school allows kids to be together with other kids and not feel excluded due to differences in religion. My kids have felt this at previous schools and it upset them so much we moved.



I will say that there is an absence of religion in Idaho schools. And you wouldn't think there would be with the high Mormon population we have. The one exception is that in the high school students are allowed to attend an optional non-credit seminary class off campus during school hours. Commercialized Christmas seems to be allowed: Snowmen, Reindeer, and Santa Claus but you won't here kids singing Silent Night.

The one thing I will say that I wish wouldn't have been taken out is the Morals. Being a teacher I see a lot of kids that come into school with no clue how to behave. Really it isn't their fault because their parents didn't do their job. It is amazing how many kids I see without an conscience or any sense of right or wrong these days. I'm talking pure ignorance of what I would consider normal social behavior for an organized society. And I'm not really talking about any real religious morals needing to be taught, just the golden rule, which is really the basic rule of most organized religions. If you look at some of the major tragedies in our society a lot of them could have been prevented if somewhere along the lines people would have developed some morals.

Red_Chili
12-07-2007, 08:20 AM
I will take a bit of a contrarian position, sure to offend most if not all. :lmao:

It bothers me when I hear folks refer to this nation as being founded as a Christian nation, though the argument can certainly be made that it is a nation founded in the Judeo-Christian thought stream as developed out of European state church history. Let me tell you why.
Michael Novak has suggested that the most just form of government has a temple at its heart. The centrality of acknowledging the 'Higher'.

Only, from the government's perspective, the temple is empty.

Think about it.
What this means is an emphasis on the founders' vision for the separation of church and state: they were not about to let crown and church become intertwined. To this day the Archbishop of Canterbury sits in the House of Lords and votes on legislation - an unelected position deciding political issues. And the Queen is the head of the Church of England. This is a very clear mixing of church and state, not the subtleties you hear debated in our country.

The founders would have none of it, and at the time the Anglicans, Baptists, Deists, Jews, Quakers, Rationalists and others were jockeying for political power (some more than others of course) and the natural path was to follow Europe. The founders envisioned a nation where religiosity was respected and honored by the government (this would logically extend to atheism and Rationalism inasmuch as they espouse universal human values) but no particular religion was empowered by government, nor had undue sway with government, as it did in England. The founders themselves were highly religious, but not representative of one religion. Their writings make clear that the religiosity of a nation was key in their minds to the betterment of its citizens. They celebrated the values of the Hebrews, of the Quakers, etc. in their writings, particularly Washington. They did not regard religion as a private matter, versus public expression. Such thinking would have been absolutely alien to them, and even something to be feared regards the future of the young nation.

Curiously, this is an attitude which would today be called diversity advocacy. It is a liberal attitude in the classic sense of the term. What it is not, but which it has become distorted into being, is an attitude of vanilla secularism in the effort to avoid controversy. It does not wish Happy Holidays, but rather, Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, Joyous Ramadan, Celebrate Kwaanza...

That is what is meant by the statement above, that government has a temple at its core, but from the government's perspective at least it is empty. Government has no particular preference for any particular content. But it will not militate against religion per se, lest it harm the character of its people.

I for one think that religion belongs in public education, and the founders would agree with me. However, not one particular religion. For this reason Christian/Catholic/Hebrew/Islamic schools, though necessary, are not the best path to me. We desperately need to be exposed to each other to enrich the national fabric. To raise kids in an environment where their religion happens on Sunday/Saturday/Friday night and only in their home, or to raise them in an environment where almost all their social contacts are people just like them, then launch them into a secularized world, is asking for trouble IMHO.

I think the failure to engage these questions in the public square has led to much of the vitriole.

Red_Chili
12-07-2007, 08:49 AM
Take a look at it from another perspective. Jesus was a practicing Jew. A very wise and good man. The last supper was a passover Seder. So up until his death, Christianity and Judaism were one in the same. After all the old testament is the Jewish Torah.

The festival of lights is based on the story of the Maccabees taking back the Temple from the Persians. This is a pre Jesus event so isn't this also part of the Christian History?

What I am trying to say is we are not all that different.

You could not be more correct. Not only Jesus, but all of his early followers were Jewish or what was referred to as God-Fearers, or those who closely identified with the Jewish people. As the church developed, and especially as it became intertwined with the Roman government, some of the worst heresies came out of streams of thought that abandoned the Jewish core of Christianity. Including the horrors of the last century, and many centuries before that. Some of the best and most helpful Christian thought has emerged from those who fully explored the Hebrew worldview as the rich seedbed of Christianity, as opposed to the Greek philosophers.

And every Sunday where the Eucharist is celebrated, it is a reenactment of Passover. When Christians forget that it becomes a much more mundane experience.

If you want to ruin a perfectly good church, just let the goyim in there. :lmao:

Ken, you really need to work on your ability to offend, I don't think you are very good at pulling it off!:lmao: