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subzali
12-10-2005, 06:13 PM
To change out my oil pan? New gasket? From dealer? Anything else to check? Don't want to make this a big project, just want to stop THAT particular leak! Maybe I'll look into my t-case leak while I'm laying under there, maybe take the parking brake off and see what's going on. Any thoughts? :confused:

Hopefully it'll warm up long enough for me to not freeze my butt off out there...

wesintl
12-10-2005, 06:39 PM
Just be forewarned it may not stop it. The oil pan and cork gaskets are a PITA. instead of the cork you might to with the FIPG.

Wes

bh4rnnr
12-10-2005, 07:14 PM
Just be forewarned it may not stop it. The oil pan and cork gaskets are a PITA. instead of the cork you might to with the FIPG.

Wes

Fipg works good. It's what is used on the Lexus oil pans. Just might want to have some glove Handy when laying the bead/installing. ONce it's on your hands, it will not leave :eek: . Some kind of Scraper is handy to remove the pan, sometimes the pan likes to not come off.... Good luck :beer:

nakman
12-10-2005, 07:55 PM
Are you changing pans? or just the gasket? plan on using a scraper on the engine, wire wheel on the pan if you're using it again.. ok just read your post again, yes get a new gasket from Toyota, the one-piece deal where the hoops are attached to the sides.

subzali
12-10-2005, 08:00 PM
I just don't want to be special and have the dimple under my drain plug gasket anymore :o :D . What's FIPG?

bh4rnnr
12-10-2005, 08:26 PM
I just don't want to be special and have the dimple under my drain plug gasket anymore :o :D . What's FIPG?

I would tell you but can not remember. And to think, I use it at least once a week at work :rolleyes:

60wag
12-11-2005, 08:56 AM
FIPG - formed in place gasket - ie goo. Silicone sealant can work but can also cause problems if you over do it. You don't want any blobs to squeeze out of the joint and fall into the sump. Personally, I'd go with the OE cork gasket. The FSM for the 2F rec's a bit of goo in the corners where the bearing cap meets the pan. Make sure the sealing surface on the block is clean and the surface on the pan is both clean and flat. Its pretty easy to distort the pan from over tightening the bolts. A soft mallet and a straight edge can flatten the surface easily.

Also - some newer pans are designed to use goo or a molded rubber gasket rather than cork. Cork seems kind of primitve, but it can work quite well.

powderpig
12-11-2005, 09:48 AM
3M weather strip adheasive works great to hold the gasket to the new pan. I would not use Fipg on the pan to cork surface it is too slippery and will allow the gasket not to align properly. You will need a hand with the 3M or be good with the process so the cork aligns up properly. I then only use FIPG or similar in the corners of the cork where the block meets the arch.
In removing the pan, if it has been on a long time a propane torch works great to heat the pan and release the cork. I do not know if just using FIPG or slimilar is a great idea in place of the cork. Also when bolting the pan up, do not over tighten the bolts. It is best to stick to the torque setting or be gentle until you heat up the pan after the oil is installed and the engine is warm. the go again adn tighten the bolts and do not squish the gasket (can cut it by tighting it too much). good luck younster. later robbie

nakman
12-11-2005, 10:03 AM
good luck younster.
Bwahahahaha!!! :D (homer voice) that's funny cause it's true..

wesintl
12-11-2005, 10:58 AM
Can't believe you guys diss FIPG that easily. On my 3B for the bj70 toyota doesn't even list a cork gasket any more. It's all FIPG. I *could* use a bj42 3b gasket but it goes to show if toyota is fine with it I cerntainly would too. Most of the 3B guys all use FIPG now. I replaced my F cork gasket a couple weeks ago and Like robbie said the corners are a PITA and need sealant. I can't tell if mine is still leaking or not from the pan as it's probably leaking from the side cover. In my experience if I had to do it ovr again I'd use FIPG vs the cork esp on a pan or side cover where they warp of distort easily.

Rzeppa
12-11-2005, 06:35 PM
Those singing praises of FIPG have evidentely left out their experiences with removing an oil pan which has been FIPG'd in.

I will relate that an oil pan that has been FIPG in for a few months is only slightly easier to remove than a stock F/2F one which has been in place with no goo whatsoever for 30 years or more, and that a factory FIPG oil pan which has been FIPG in is WAY more of a PITA to remove than nature's own cork. Removing an FIPG pan over a year or two is WAY more of a PITA than removing a factory cork gasket of even 30 years old or more, in my first hand experience.

FIPG is for dealership techs who will never see that engine again and will never have to deal with dropping that oil pan again. It is for factories who want to save a few bucks on skimping on a real gasket. FIPG is for trail fixes when you don't have the proper cork gasket handy or for cheap-a$$ed factories or dealer service departments who won't spring for a real gasket.

For an F or 2F oil pan service, get a real OEM cork gasket. Use a thin amount of RTV sealant such as Permatex Ultra Blue at the corners, as recommended in the factory service manual. Use a slight amount all over the gasket sealing surface of the surface of the pan, using a couple of pan bolts to hold everything in place. This is for assembly aid, not for sealing.

The next time you have to drop your oil pan, you will be very glad you didn't use FIPG exclusively.

Uncle Ben
12-11-2005, 06:53 PM
I will behave and continue to bite my tongue over this post..... :(
Those singing praises of FIPG have evidentely left out their experiences with removing an oil pan which has been FIPG'd in.

I will relate that an oil pan that has been FIPG in for a few months is only slightly easier to remove than a stock F/2F one which has been in place with no goo whatsoever for 30 years or more, and that a factory FIPG oil pan which has been FIPG in is WAY more of a PITA to remove than nature's own cork. Removing an FIPG pan over a year or two is WAY more of a PITA than removing a factory cork gasket of even 30 years old or more, in my first hand experience.

FIPG is for dealership techs who will never see that engine again and will never have to deal with dropping that oil pan again. It is for factories who want to save a few bucks on skimping on a real gasket. FIPG is for trail fixes when you don't have the proper cork gasket handy or for cheap-a$$ed factories or dealer service departments who won't spring for a real gasket.

For an F or 2F oil pan service, get a real OEM cork gasket. Use a thin amount of RTV sealant such as Permatex Ultra Blue at the corners, as recommended in the factory service manual. Use a slight amount all over the gasket sealing surface of the surface of the pan, using a couple of pan bolts to hold everything in place. This is for assembly aid, not for sealing.

The next time you have to drop your oil pan, you will be very glad you didn't use FIPG exclusively.

powderpig
12-11-2005, 06:58 PM
FIPG is a change in technology, yes it saves some time, but will also bond the pieces together for more structruical integerity of the pieces. More modern engines are built differently.
Wes I am not discounting it as a only thing, just have not heard of any one just relaying on it for a pan on a older rig. One big concern is the loss of volume in the pan and the placement of the oil strainer. Both changes without the cork in it proper place. You may be looseing upt to 1/2 qt over the surface X width X lenght of the pan at that level. As for the chance now of underfilling on the dip stick.Then how close is the strainer to the pan, hopefull enough space to still provide flow when the pump is sucking at it hardest. Just some thoughts. later robbie

subzali
12-11-2005, 07:20 PM
Wow, formed in place gasket, learn something new every day, expecially since I'm young! :D But hey I'm catching up to you guys...oh wait :rolleyes: :D So if I screw this up I'll be out a cork gasket (if that's the way I choose to go) and some time.

Uncle Ben
12-11-2005, 07:51 PM
FIPG earliest use I know of was the 2.4 GM V-6. GM had horrible efforts in resealing the upper end of that engine and developed a metal forming concept on the tin and aluminum covers that allowed the FIPG to cling and seal much like an O-ring. A few manufactures played with this concept as it not only sealed fairly efficiantly but it saved assembly time and of course money. The japanese came to the rescue again and started using o-rings. FITP IS NOT A GASKET REPLACEMENT! It is designed to be used on covers that have a half round (or multiple) cavity(s) pressed/machined into the surface.

If you ever have to depend on the red box's to feed your family you would never "flat rate" anything as critical as a oil pan gasket thinking "just get it out and never see it again!" You do learn tricks and you also quickly learn problem areas but a professional would never count on not seeing the same vehicle again! In fact if your worth your weight in gear oil you hope the customer likes your work and you WILL get the trust to work on that vehicle again!!!!! The term "shadetree mechanic" is earned by those who do have the mentality that "If I just get it out the door it will be OK!"

This thread is killing me as some folks actually believe they know more than factory trained and hired engineers whom have more lab time and technology at thier disposal from vehicle manufactures that survive on vehicles not leaking on the showroom floor! Wonder if anyone here that likes RTV on a entire cork gasket has ever seen an oil pump drive shaft that is perfectly twisted from hardened end to hardened end by a very tiny fragment of "silly putty" that prevented the new oil pump gears from passing each other? (I know F's don't use a OP driveshaft but they do have shearpins)

OK.....so I couldn't behave and my tongue was starting to hurt....but RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! :mad:

Rzeppa
12-11-2005, 08:43 PM
I'm not a professional mechanic, never held myself out as such. Only relating my own shade tree howler monkee experiences over the last dozen or two oil pans, and more factory-intended cork oil seals. This is on Fords, Chevys, Plymouths and mostly Toyotas.

Unlike shops, when I do a repair to one of my own rigs, I live with the results. Often, for many years (decades) and many tens or hundreds of thousands of miles.

My personal experience, in particular with Toyota factory oil pan gaskets with Land Cruiser F and 2Fs and Runner 22RE, is that FIPG is a total PITA to remove. More so than 30 year old cork, which is also a PITA. In my experience, if you don't put some RTV at the corners of the factory cork gasket, you will leak. In my experience, if you do put a thin smear of RTV on each side of a factory cork gastek, it will peel right off and need no scraping, even after 5 or more years of service. In my experience, aftermarket 4 piece F/2F cork gaskets are a worthless waste of time. The Factory glued-together and formed gasket is so superior it far outweighs the slight cost savings from aftermarket 4 piece gaskets.

My personal experience with "professional" mechanics over the last couple decades has caused me to move all my work in house. Across the board, from shop to shop, they are not as competent as many would like to believe. This includes several prominent Rising Sun supporters, as well as independent wide-range shops, who I personally like and won't slam by name, or use myself.

Back on topic, factory cork for tha F/2F oil pan can not be beat. You must use goop per the factory manual at the corners. A very thin film on each side will aid assembly and ease future disassembly. A thicker coat will hose you, don't use too much! Just my personal exerience over many years and Land Cruiser engines.

powderpig
12-11-2005, 09:19 PM
Fipg can easily be removed with a wire brush, either the long handle wood kind or the wire wheel of various sizes.
Not all FIPG users have the mentallity that you talk about Jeff. Any how it is funny some times how threads go off in different directions. later robbie

wesintl
12-11-2005, 09:48 PM
Jeff.. What do you use when a cork gasket still leaks? :confused: and I'm almost as oem as you can find.

I've used both and will continue to use what I think is best suited in my app.

FIPG or oem gasket in this case being cork.


oil pan Gasket is 12151-61010 and about $20

subzali
12-11-2005, 10:05 PM
Wow, what a great thread I started! ;) I think I should also spend the time/money to get a FSM for my truck this break! I've put that off too long! Adding that to my list of priorities...okay before or after the cork gasket? ;)

Uncle Ben
12-11-2005, 10:07 PM
RTV is used on joints, irregularities and damaged sealing surfaces. Spray Coppercoat is a good light sealer for most gaskets if allowed to dry before assembly. Factory gaskets should always be used UNLESS a design change in the assembly warrents a specialty gasket. As Robbie pointed out, a thin application of weatherstrip adheasive is an industry standard trick of securing difficult gaskets (one side only!) so hands can be free to manuver pans/covers into place. Consumer RTV use has probably made more shop owners/mechanics mortgage payments than any other over the counter material!

Cork gaskets are excellant especially when the manufactures started adding bits of neoprene in the compound. The biggest reason for failure is overtightening. When assembling ANYTHING, a criss cross pattern should be employed so even pressure is applied. Never tighten one bolt then another but rather continuous snugging followed by final tightning. In the case of cork or neoprene only tighten until slight bulging happens. Never tighten to the point of a "tight" bolt! Use of "slick" sealants on cork or neoprene (rtv, grease, oil, wet Coppercoat) will encouage the gasket to squish and fail. RTV (silly putty) being a liquid will not compress and will deflect out from between the sealing surfaces. If you see the RTV bead outside then you can bet the same amount is squeezed inside! As pointed out, you do want a dab of RTV wherever gaskets mate, crossing other gasketed area's and sharp corners.

O-rings and flat gaskets should always be torqued to spec as they are usually found on aluminum accesories. A light spray of Coppercoat on flat gaskets will insure sealing without weepage. (Again, let the Coppercoat dry before assembly or it will stick and be a PITA to clean off later!) Aviation sealer will seal well on damaged flat gaskets but is a major PITA to get off! A light coat of oil on an O-ring will ensure it comes out next time the part is removed. If the o-ring is prone to slipping out of position before it gets sandwiched some white lithium lube will usually keep it in place long enough. Never use moly based lubes on o-rings as it can attack natural rubber that o-rings are often made of!
If a flange type of seal is needed and a gasket in unavailable use a flange sealant instead of RTV! Flange sealants are designed to be put on very thin and even and they are resistant to flaking off at the edges incase of over application. Anti-seeze should also be used on torqued bolts and any steel bolt threaded into aluminum!

Hope that helps! Sorry if my professional factory training let anyone down!

Three Wheel Ben
12-12-2005, 09:26 AM
I just want to say, I love that everyone is arguing about "the next time the gasket comes out", Zepp is talking about "30 year gaskets". Ok so there is a slight chance it's going to leak again in the next 5 assuming installer error. What else are you going to pull the pan down for???? An engine problem? Only if you run it out of oil. We are talking about one of the most reliable gas engines on the planet. :bowdown: I would be installing the gasket now to make it seal. Worry about how hard it is to get out the next time(10 yrs maybe). Personal experience I have used aviation on the cork gasket and fipg in the corners and never had a problem.

As for FIPG, I have been using it for as long as I have worked for Toyota/Lexus (14 yrs). It works great on almost anything in a pinch (read if it is all you have on the trail). However I agree with Uncle Ben and powderpigs comments. There are certain places where it is used and it probably won't leak again. Example valve cover corners, oil pan corners. Places where unless the valve cover and head are machined together as mates no gasket will ever seal all the time.

Jeff - I am sorry you have had poor experiences with past technicians. We are not all bad or have bad work ethic. I will be the first to admit the "flat rate" system sucks. Many people take advantage of it and in the end the on who suffers is usually the customer. Dealerships are just like any other business, all management cares about usually is the bottom line. I also will tell you this - unless you have worked flat rate I cannot describe and you will never understand the constant pressure of worrying if you are going to make any money. It takes about 4-5 years just to get used to it. Example - I used to hate Christmas, it was the slowest time of the year and the time when expenses are usually the highest(presents, travel) It used to stress me out to no end because I was always broke.

Techs like robbie are few and far between, and sometimes hard to find. Disclaimer, I have worked at a few Toyota dealers in 3 different cities and will tell you this. There are probably about 5 guys I would let work on my cars/trucks in all of the shops I have worked in. 1 of those guys was a cruiser head. Unless the tech is a cruiser head, he doesn't want to work on a cruiser. 95% of the shop would just as soon work on a camry. Granted this is from a monetary standpoint. Cars are light, small and fairly easy to work on. Cruisers are big, heavy, and more work. Add this to the fact that most of the guys working in these shops are in there 20's and don't remember old cruisers when they were new because they weren't around. Cars with carb's and drum brakes will draw a crowd of young guys. All they know is EFI and Disc brakes (as examples).

Sorry about the babbling, but I feel I have to defend those few of us who do this as a profession every day, because we are not all thiefs.

ben :D

Red_Chili
12-16-2005, 02:09 PM
I am not a professional and I don't play one on TV. But I can duck real fast.

I used FIPG exclusively on my 5VZ-FE (and, throughout my R151 tranny, and tcases, and third members, and rear FF spindle mounts, and ...). I have nary a drap o' erl.

The expensive kind of FIPG. The gen-yoo-wine Oytota brand of orange for the driveline, black for the motor. Worth every cent. Because I live by the motto:

Red_Chili
12-16-2005, 02:16 PM
http://members.tripod.com/HoboJeepers/images/mouse.gif .....................................I'll duck now.