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View Full Version : Should I join the Sierra Club?


Romer
12-26-2007, 07:05 PM
Just received in the mail a large packet from the Sierra club. If I join now for $28, they will send me two sierra club expedition backpacks woo hoo.

They included two pre-written letters with my name on it that I have to sign to get the backpacks. One to each of the Senate and House leaders protesting the plans to cut down the Sequoia trees as part of a new logging expansion in the Sequoia National Monument.

They also are alerting me to the profit taking evil oil and gas companies that are tearing up our public lands.

They even included a sticker for the window of my truck so I can proudly display it as I am offroading:rolleyes:

Not one mention of offroading or OHV. All about the Sequioia's and oil and gas companies.

I think I will pass. Still trying to figure out why I joined the BMWCAA.

ScaldedDog
12-27-2007, 12:51 AM
I thought about joining, but they said I'd have to give up my baby seal skin seat covers... :D

Mark

treerootCO
12-27-2007, 08:20 AM
"By law, you have to keep clubbing the seal in the forehead until you know for sure that it's dead. Sealers are supposed to "palpate" a pup's skull after they've clubbed it, to feel the caved-in bone beneath the skin and blubber. Or they can perform the "blink reflex" test, which consists of touching the seal's eyeball—if it blinks, you've got to club it again."

Red_Chili
12-27-2007, 08:26 AM
We actually share quite a few values with the average Sierra Clubber. Just some notable ones on which we differ. Not to mention, enriching some already-wealthy ecolawyers who work for them.

Oh, and we might also differ on some economic theory, but that would depend on the particular Rising Sun member I think! :lmao:

Uncle Ben
12-27-2007, 09:01 AM
"By law, you have to keep clubbing the seal in the forehead until you know for sure that it's dead. Sealers are supposed to "palpate" a pup's skull after they've clubbed it, to feel the caved-in bone beneath the skin and blubber. Or they can perform the "blink reflex" test, which consists of touching the seal's eyeball—if it blinks, you've got to club it again."

Hmmmmm....hope the wife doesn't start touching my eyeball! :eek: :rolleyes:

Corbet
12-27-2007, 12:30 PM
I don't think the Sierra Club thinks too highly of our trucks. It's too bad, as otherwise we have a lot in common.

Magoo
12-27-2007, 01:31 PM
Hmmmmm....hope the wife doesn't start touching my eyeball! :eek: :rolleyes:

well whatever you do DONT BLINK!!!

Uncle Ben
12-27-2007, 03:47 PM
well whatever you do DONT BLINK!!!


:lmao::lmao: ....great advice! :lmao:

treerootCO
12-27-2007, 03:59 PM
If he blinks, I call dibs on his 80 :p:

ScaldedDog
12-27-2007, 05:11 PM
We actually share quite a few values with the average Sierra Clubber.

I'm not sure that this ubber right wing born-again has much in common with the average earth-worshiping fascist... :D

Mark

Beater
12-27-2007, 05:54 PM
the difference in the sierra club and most grass roots organizations is only one thing. Centralized monies/power. Period. I was once a proud member, and wheeled at the same time.

Hulk
12-27-2007, 09:15 PM
I'm not sure that this ubber right wing born-again has much in common with the average earth-worshiping fascist... :D

Mark

I think this thread is taking an ugly turn. Let's not start calling names here.

Personally, I like to wheel and wrench on my gas-guzzling 80 Series. I also believe in recycling, solar/wind/geothermal power and electric cars. I don't much like George W. Bush, but amazingly enough, I teach Sunday School at my Christian church. I don't worship the earth, although I do enjoy spending time in beautiful remote places. I'm not really sure what fascism is, but I always thought it had something to do with Dick Cheney.

I'd agree with Bill's original statement: "We actually share quite a few values with the average Sierra Clubber."

I have no problem with this part of your statement: "I'm not sure that this uber right wing born-again has much in common..."

It's this part I don't care for: "...with the average earth-worshiping fascist."

When we generalize and belittle real, intelligent, thoughtful human beings into such a despicable group, we lose the ability to actually listen, learn, compromise, make friends, gain respect and make progress.

It's the effect that Rush Limbaugh has had on our country. If you badmouth your opponents long enough and say that they're completely stupid terrorist-loving atheists, people will eventually start to believe you. And then you can simply ignore them. Were Ronald Reagan in office today, I think he would be ashamed of this, and he would ask Rush to tone down the hate.

I'm not saying you have to have respect for anyone who actually does worship rocks and trees. But it's very unlikely that the average Sierra Club member is an earth-worshiping fascist. Given that 85% of the USA considers themselves a Christian, I'd bet that most SierraClub members believe in the same God as do you and I. By denigrating these folks, you lose the opportunity to find that they do, in fact, love the outdoors and want to protect it from the careless idiots as much as we do.

Nay
12-27-2007, 10:05 PM
I'm not sure that this ubber right wing born-again has much in common with the average earth-worshiping fascist... :D

Mark

This gets my vote for most unintended correlation of the year :lmao:

Hulk
12-27-2007, 10:17 PM
This gets my vote for most unintended correlation of the year :lmao:

Oh, snap! :lmao:

Red_Chili
12-28-2007, 08:18 AM
:p:
Well now, going in a more serious note and picking up on Mark's humor (because I know Mark and think I know where he is *really* coming from), I have often wondered how those who believe the earth is a gift, but still belongs to the Giver, and how those who believe each species is also a gift, and who believe our stewardship of these precious gifts will be evaluated by One who knows all, can possibly endorse policies (and vote for those who do, without some soul searching before pulling that lever - sometimes one has no real choice) that irreversibly degrade the earth and are directly destructive of species and habitat. I say that as one who lives in that glass house, the reason I am a Land Use Coordinator is *because* I am a Christian - it is not just coincidence.

On the other hand, I also believe humans belong in the wild country - treading lightly - just as much as any other species. Sometimes with their tools, and sometimes not. I believe that idealism - moral purity in service to an ideal, if you will - has resulted in the most horrible events in human history, from the Crusades and Inquisition, to Hitler and Mao and the Khmer Rouge. So the appealing high mindedness of an uber green agenda should come with a warning tag, not to even be removed by the consumer. That is what keeps me, even more than 4x4ing and dirtbiking, from signing on to and supporting the Sierra Club, Wilderness Society, or other such groups.

The tension between the two perspectives has driven much progress in the human enterprise. I have to remember that when I get my pink panties in a knot over things.:rolleyes:

corsair23
12-29-2007, 02:40 AM
I have to remember that when I get my pink panties in a knot over things.:rolleyes:

Speaking of pink panties...I still have that sticker for you :thumb:

Maybe I'll just stick is on at the next meeting, when you ain't looking :hill:

Red_Chili
12-29-2007, 10:02 AM
:lmao:
I'll be sure to buff my silicone wax first so it won't stick!

ScaldedDog
12-29-2007, 06:19 PM
I think this thread is taking an ugly turn.

Nah, I'm just poking fun at how polarized our society has become. (For the record, I don't have baby seal skin seatcovers either, though I got a kick out of Treeroot's advice on how to whack the skin's original owner. :D )

That said, though, I think our society is polarized for a reason, and not because talk show hosts of whatever ilk have made it that way. I believe there's a huge difference in values between those of us who believe that this earth was given to man, for our temporary care and use, and those who believe that the earth and it's inhabitants are simply the result of countless evolutionary accidents, and that the earth must sustain life as we know it in perpetuity. Some of our behaviors may look the same (e.g. cleaning up after ourselves, recycling) but that which we value is fundamentally and irreconcilably different.

My $.02.

Mark

Red_Chili
12-29-2007, 07:42 PM
Yeah, and yet...
Those who believe the earth was created and is therefore sacred far too often treat it more poorly than those who believe it was an accident, yet treat it as sacred (present company excluded of course).

THAT is the irony in my comments above. It should not be so. And in fact, many groups within Christianity are gaining a voice in saying so. Personally, one of my passions is bridging the polarizing wall. All have much to learn from each other.

It doesn't make good talkshow fodder though. Nor is it easy or comfortable.

ScaldedDog
12-29-2007, 09:56 PM
Yep, sometimes our behaviors don't look the same, and shame on us for that.

This is a somewhat different subject, but I personally believe that this nation will crumble not because of the actions of the pagans, atheists and Clintons, but the actions - on on-actions - of us Christians. (2 Chronicles 7:14) If so, what an indictment!

Mark

Inukshuk
12-30-2007, 08:15 PM
Today's (12/30/07) Sunday NY Times has a front page article on off-roading. Not too bad.

wesintl
12-30-2007, 09:21 PM
Today's (12/30/07) Sunday NY Times has a front page article on off-roading. Not too bad.

I read it all as atv's/dirtbikes and not offroading 4x4's.

I'm getting to the point were I can't stand those things...

Inukshuk
12-30-2007, 11:17 PM
I read it all as atv's/dirtbikes and not offroading 4x4's.

I'm getting to the point were I can't stand those things...

Yes, I really wish they would clearly differentiate between the vehicle types.

Hulk
12-30-2007, 11:27 PM
Today's (12/30/07) Sunday NY Times has a front page article on off-roading. Not too bad.

Here's the link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/30/us/30lands.html

treerootCO
12-30-2007, 11:32 PM
I don't drive "off-road" :D

Red_Chili
12-31-2007, 08:43 AM
I read it all as atv's/dirtbikes and not offroading 4x4's.

I'm getting to the point were I can't stand those things...

Yes, I really wish they would clearly differentiate between the vehicle types.
Well, I'm a dirt biker and I definitely ride off road. But not off trail. I try to keep it as quiet as possible too, another sore point.

Dirt bikers tend to dislike ATVs and 4x4s because the former widen trails into two track (and go off trail most frequently among OHV users), and dislike the latter because they clog trails with traffic jams, often do not yield to the faster dirt bikes, and can often be observed causing tremendous erosion damage to difficult trails and muddy areas, far beyond what a singletrack dirtbike does.

I wish there was no evidence to support these biases. Being a 4x4 guy as well, of course, I cannot hold them, but I am constantly trying to present a positive TreadLightly! picture to dirt bikers as a 4x4 representative.

Mountain bikers as a group tend to hate us all of course. And equestrians hate all of the above, as well as mountain bikers. Hikers hate everybody. (OK, overstatement for humor...). Just to complicate things I also (sorta, gotta work on that) ride a mountain bike.

Just presenting the other side - we need to be careful about splintering OHV groups. We stand or fall together. If divided, we hand the anti-access advocates a real plum. That's why in my letters I also advocate for dirt bike access and [shudder] ATV access (as well as environmental education). MTB access too.

That is one of the things I really appreciate about Blue Ribbon, they at least present themselves as horseback and hiking advocates as well as OHV advocates. (I've not seen too many horseback or hiker action alerts from them, truth be told. I HAVE seen mountain bike points in their action alerts, however!).

It is a normal human tendency to prefer those who are most like ourselves. Normal, but when indulged too much, IMHO, a real source of problems. We need to hang out with people we might not otherwise choose. Real wierdos.

That's why I hang around with you folks! :lmao:

Commitment to diversity is a cool value, but it really sucks when we have to build community with people different than ourselves. :lmao:

Chris
12-31-2007, 10:57 AM
Just received in the mail a large packet from the Sierra club. If I join now for $28, they will send me two sierra club expedition backpacks woo hoo.

They included two pre-written letters with my name on it that I have to sign to get the backpacks. One to each of the Senate and House leaders protesting the plans to cut down the Sequoia trees as part of a new logging expansion in the Sequoia National Monument.

They also are alerting me to the profit taking evil oil and gas companies that are tearing up our public lands.

They even included a sticker for the window of my truck so I can proudly display it as I am offroading:rolleyes:

Not one mention of offroading or OHV. All about the Sequioia's and oil and gas companies.

I think I will pass. Still trying to figure out why I joined the BMWCAA.


I usually keep my mouth shut on this type of post but the years coming to an end and I haven't used up my quota of opinions. The first question I would ask is why you (Ken) would ask others what you should do? Rhetorical question to generate chit chat perhaps. Personally I don't give a damn what other people think of organizations I support and making any decision by consensus is thoughtless at best.

BTW, consensus = not taking individual responsibility.

The Sierra Club does some good things and condemning the entire organization because of their anti 4x4 stance is narrow-minded at best. It's that kind of reasoning that has turned our once thinking populace into single issue thinkers.

Just my 2˘

Happy New Year everyone, be careful on the roads tonight.

The death and destruction from ON-ROAD drivers will be tragic as always. :rant:

Romer
12-31-2007, 11:14 AM
Chris, I have no intentions of joining the Sierra Club and I said so in the first post. I thought it was humurous that they sent me all this stuff and was sharing what was in the packet, specifically the two filled out letters with my name preprinted on them ready for my signature. I thought that was worthy of discussion. Those kind of things irk me.

I was in no way condemming the organization.

Chris
12-31-2007, 03:08 PM
Ken, your comment "I think I will pass" was sufficient to make that clear and much of what I said wasn't directed at you which is why I said: "Rhetorical question to generate chit chat perhaps." I agree that some of their tactics can be insulting but I'll also defend a lot of what they do.

For the record I am a member of the Sierra Club (stone me if you want) as well as a number of other organizations. The only real point I was trying to make was the tendency of so many people to make decisions based on a single issue or a group approval to think for them.

The examples that come to mind are people voting for a presidential candidate solely on his/her stance on something like abortion, gun control, gay rights, etc and ignoring everything else. Another would be people basing "their" decision on the likes of R. Limbaugh. :rant:

wesintl
12-31-2007, 04:23 PM
The only real point I was trying to make was the tendency of so many people to make decisions based on a single issue or a group approval to think for them.

Kind of ironic in a way when your a member of a club... You pay money and let them make the decisons and policy of which you follow...


The examples that come to mind are people voting for a presidential candidate solely on his/her stance on something like abortion, gun control, gay rights, etc and ignoring everything else. Another would be people basing "their" decision on the likes of R. Limbaugh. :rant:

One candidate is going to satisify all your stances on everything you believe? Come on. I pick the main issues that are issues concerning me.. the rest of the issues the chips fall where they do.

:stirpot:

Chris
12-31-2007, 05:13 PM
Kind of ironic in a way when your a member of a club... You pay money and let them make the decisons and policy of which you follow...

Yep, they spend my money the way they feel fit but assuming I follow all their decisions and policies is foolish. You know better than that Wes! ;)


One candidate is going to satisify all your stances on everything you believe? Come on.

Of course not but I sure as hell won't vote for someone simply because I agree with them on a couple key issues that, in the big picture, are more of a stance than will ever result in policy.


I pick the main issues that are issues concerning me.. the rest of the issues the chips fall where they do.


Kind of ironic in a way when you vote that way... You vote and let them make the decisions and policy of which you follow... :rolleyes:

Sounds familiar, eh?

:stirpot: :stirpot: :stirpot:

Red_Chili
12-31-2007, 05:15 PM
Our political institutions work remarkably well. They are designed to clang against each other.
The noise is democracy at work.

In defense of pot stirring. :thumb: *

When you think about it, my interests are important. Your interests are special interests. :p:
Democracy prevents either your interests or my interests from having overmuch hegemony. When viewed from a long enough time horizon, at least.




Sure pisses a fella off though, don't it?!? :lmao:



*(I kinda like Michael Novak's writing. I may not always agree with his applications but he gets a boy thinking.)

Chris
12-31-2007, 05:28 PM
In defense of pot stirring. :thumb: *

When you think about it, my interests are important. Your interests are special interests. :p:
Democracy prevents either your interests or my interests from having overmuch hegemony. When viewed from a long enough time horizon, at least.




Sure pisses a fella off though, don't it?!? :lmao:



*(I kinda like Michael Novak's writing. I may not always agree with his applications but he gets a boy thinking.)

Using a word like "hegemony" gets a boy to thinking too. :lmao:

The only problem with the "long enough time horizon" is having a lifetime that spans that same horizon.

I have always liked "When you think about it, my interests are important. Your interests are special interests." :thumb:

And my last word on this is that it doesn't piss me off as much as disappoint me.

Red_Chili
12-31-2007, 05:39 PM
I've seen it cycle dramatically enough in my short life to be well enough satisfied about the time horizon thing. Democracy self corrects, even with an ignorant populace - as long as power does not stay concentrated, which democracy also mitigates.

But to me it's important enough to be putting bumpers on the extremes of the swings to keep me from being libertarian. Guvmint does have a role. Damp the swings too much though, and you obliterate the self cleaning effect of the cycle.

Guess I am a glass-half-full kinda guy who for the life of him can NOT figure out how a bunch of parochial 18th century idjuts figgered out how to propel a nation in as good a direction as they did. They weren't too confident at the time...