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View Full Version : For you Welder Types: Welding 4130


AxleIke
01-07-2008, 09:58 PM
I've been looking all over the net and haven't found a satisfactory answer.

Some say this crap has to be TIG welded.

Others say MIG is fine.

Both sides say you must have the proper filler wire.

Which is it? Just TIG, or Both?

Uncle Ben
01-07-2008, 10:09 PM
4130 is pure steel (cromo) It will weld super nicer than anything you have ever welded before! The favorable method is TIG because of the heating/case hardening associated with other welding methods. Mig will be fine! You will want to do everything in 4130 after working with it but your wallet will keep you under control! There is a great place between Lafeyette and I-25 to get it. The place is called Aircraft Steel. Snoop it out and call first as the guy sells it out of his barn. He even has it in streamlined tube....very cool! You can buy it by the foot from him.

Rezarf
01-07-2008, 10:36 PM
whatch'a building there dude? :D

AxleIke
01-07-2008, 10:54 PM
I'm just designing, cutting and notching

I am hoping to get you to do the welding there partner.

I am getting a second (or is it third) start on my steering. This time for real though.

Second question:

I just read that you can use mild steel filler wire for 4130. Is this true? Or should i get cromo wire?

Third question: Okay to weld cromo to mild steel? My heims are mild (i think), as are the tube inserts for the replacement TRE's.

Uncle Ben
01-07-2008, 11:02 PM
You can weld it with the same equipment you have been welding with! I'll grab you a couple scraps Friday to play with. It really is just very clean steel in the way it welds. Cromo's biggest asset is it's memory! It's perfect for tie rods/sleeves and other things that can get hit as it bounces right back to its original shape (within' boundaries of course)!
I'm just designing, cutting and notching

I am hoping to get you to do the welding there partner.

I am getting a second (or is it third) start on my steering. This time for real though.

Second question:

I just read that you can use mild steel filler wire for 4130. Is this true? Or should i get cromo wire?

Third question: Okay to weld cromo to mild steel? My heims are mild (i think), as are the tube inserts for the replacement TRE's.

Beater
01-08-2008, 07:55 AM
most wire is 80kpsi compared to mild steel at 40kpsi. the main problem is the heat, and the haf. Tig is great if you have the machine. There is some specific heat treating that you should do to do it right. pre-heat and cool down to be specific. Check lincoln's site or miller/hobart's boards for articles.

If it's for a cage, do it right and heat it/cool it.

UB's right, it is very cool to work with.

IanB
01-08-2008, 08:23 AM
I can TIG it for you.

AxleIke
01-08-2008, 10:24 AM
Awesome Ian. That would be great too. I'll be in contact when stuff is ready to go, and see if we can fit it in sometime. No worries though, if it doesn't work out, as I'll just buy some wire for Drew's welder, and see if I can get him to do it.

Now, you like Sam Adams Cherry Wheat, right?

Here is the deal:

I've got a center link and tie rods that will be cromo. I have the whole thing designed and am working on a jig to hold everything in place during welding.

I have rod inserts for the tierods which are mild steel, so that I don't have to try and tap out the rods themselves.

Hopefully I won't be breaking my stupid steering anymore.

Red_Chili
01-08-2008, 10:53 AM
If you are still IFS (don't recall), your weak link will be the idler arm. You *should* be able to fab up a mighty strong replacement for it with a spare pitman and some backyard engineering!

Speaking with Hank of Hanksville Hot Rods (VERY cool NHRA certified cromo roll cages and etc.), he is of the 'TIG it!' school with cromo. YMMV.

AxleIke
01-08-2008, 11:12 AM
The idler is what is going most of the time. It is getting replaced.

The trick there is getting it to clear the frame.

I haven't figured that part out yet. If I can't, I will just buy the bulletproof one from TC.

rover67
01-10-2008, 09:54 AM
If you are doing tubes, you can get away with just tigging them straight away with no preheat as long as the shop is pretty warm. Lincoln/F1 car Tig guy does it lke this and we have done it like this for quite a while on lots of different cages and parts. Don't "stress relieve" with the big "rose bud" either... good way to take cromo and make it mild steel. you are better off leaving it as welded. If you want to mig it you can use mild steel wire, and yes you can weld CrMo to Mild steel... it works well.

AxleIke
01-11-2008, 10:36 AM
Next question:

How about welding to existing steering components. I've been reading that this is scary. However, many companies do it. I'm assuming that as long as the welds are good, it should be fine.

Essentially, I have to weld on an upper mount onto the knuckle arm, so that the heims can be in double shear. Obviously, it will be braced and gusseted well, but what concerns me is the fact that i've read that perhaps the steel they use in the steering components is treated in some way that makes it brittle when one welds to it.

Is that true?

Beater
01-11-2008, 11:53 AM
are you referencing the arms that come off the knuckle? I don't know if they are cast or not, either steel or iron. I can advise you once I know that... I have NEVER had to monkey with that stuff on any truck of mine...

AxleIke
01-11-2008, 01:39 PM
Well, its got to be monkeyed with. No point in going to heims and trying to stay single shear.

It is the arm that comes off the knuckle. I will attempt to find out what it is.

Beater
01-11-2008, 01:42 PM
I would see if Ian B could mill the piece you need if it were me.

j

Red_Chili
01-11-2008, 01:57 PM
You are going heims on an IFS steering arm? :eek:
If you must, go with FJ80 TREs, get them retapered for them, and forget it forever!
Hellferstout.
Heims wear and develop play.

Uncle Ben
01-11-2008, 02:14 PM
You are going heims on an IFS steering arm? :eek: You must, go with FJ80 TREs, get them still attached to the Truck, and forget mini truck issues forever!
Hellferstout.
Heims wear and develop play.


Fixed it for you! ;)

Red_Chili
01-11-2008, 02:19 PM
Delusions are soooo complicated as a treatment issue in psychiatry...

I already own all the 80 I ever want. BTW, wasn't it you who said that front diff was junk? Works fine in *my* truck... :lmao:

Uncle Ben
01-11-2008, 02:35 PM
Delusions are soooo complicated as a treatment issue in psychiatry...

I already own all the 80 I ever want. BTW, wasn't it you who said that front diff was junk? Works fine in *my* truck... :lmao:


I said it was the weakest link in an 80. It would be fine in light duty stuff! :eek: :hill:

Red_Chili
01-11-2008, 02:50 PM
I said it was the weakest link in an 80. It would be fine in light serious wheeling stuff (almost anything else)! :eek: :hill:
Fixed. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Uncle Ben
01-11-2008, 03:55 PM
Fixed. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Beadlocks and 6 psi made you like a butterfly....BS is what makes you float! :eek: :lmao: ;)

Red_Chili
01-11-2008, 04:42 PM
The pull of the dark side must be strong with this one. Struggles, he does. Resisting, he is always...






Besides, you ran 6psi and beadlocks too. Float? Not so much. 300 freakin' horsepower, maybe... but not float.

AxleIke
01-11-2008, 06:25 PM
Okay, so it is cast iron. So thats right out for welding, if I'm reading this right.

Looks like I'm off to the drawing board again.

I have 6 PSC heims that i got a long time ago for a project that never came to fruition. TRE's develop slop too. Lots of it.

Rezarf
01-11-2008, 07:24 PM
Okay, so it is cast iron. So thats right out for welding, if I'm reading this right.

Looks like I'm off to the drawing board again.

I have 6 PSC heims that i got a long time ago for a project that never came to fruition. TRE's develop slop too. Lots of it.

Lets 4 link my trailer with them! :D

AxleIke
01-11-2008, 08:32 PM
The new things will have to be milled most likely. I'll be researching more, but its looking like that.

Weird part is, there is a company that advocates welding to these things. Wonder how they get past the dangerousness of it in their legal stuff?

Red_Chili
01-12-2008, 03:26 PM
My FJ80 TREs have not developed slop in six years.

Uncle Ben
01-12-2008, 04:05 PM
My FJ80 TREs have not developed slop in six years.

Before I put in the Marlinks with new TRE's my 80 still had the original TRE's so that puts them at 9 years and running! If it's a tractor or dedicated rock rig...go heim steering links....if it is a dual purpose or DD go TRE!

Beater
01-12-2008, 07:42 PM
I would not use heims in steering on the road. or in links for that matter... clunk clunk, play play

j

AxleIke
01-13-2008, 12:45 AM
Looks like I'm not going to have a choice.

TRE's will have to go in, since there is no way to weld in double shear with the cast iron.

Bummer.

As for play, I'm not following that at all. I see heims sold as UPGRADED steering systems for both IFS Toyotas, SA toyotas, and like every other axle out there. If they are that bad, why are companies using them?

Uncle Ben
01-13-2008, 05:10 AM
Looks like I'm not going to have a choice.

TRE's will have to go in, since there is no way to weld in double shear with the cast iron.

Bummer.

As for play, I'm not following that at all. I see heims sold as UPGRADED steering systems for both IFS Toyotas, SA toyotas, and like every other axle out there. If they are that bad, why are companies using them?

Biggest issue is dirt! No way to keep it out of them! There is greasable heims but they are still not sealed so that give something else for grit to get held with!

Red_Chili
01-13-2008, 09:40 AM
As for play, I'm not following that at all. I see heims sold as UPGRADED steering systems for both IFS Toyotas, SA toyotas, and like every other axle out there. If they are that bad, why are companies using them?
Single purpose rock buggies, yeah, they are best (strongest) in this application. For multipurpose, DD-style rigs, they are not. They wear faster. Technically they are not street legal if that matters to you. But that is why.

Good TREs such as FJ80 units or Chevy units are the 'best' for your intended usage. I prefer metric FJ80s.

AxleIke
01-13-2008, 10:40 AM
huh.


Well, never would have thought of that. Guess I will be selling these bad boys.

Thanks for the info, though it kind of bums me out.

Uncle Ben
01-13-2008, 11:27 AM
huh.


Well, never would have thought of that. Guess I will be selling these bad boys.

Thanks for the info, though it kind of bums me out. What size are they?

AxleIke
01-13-2008, 08:27 PM
3/4 16

3 RH
3 LH

Also have:

2 RH tube inserts
2 LH tube inserts

Also for 3/4 16