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timmbuck2
01-13-2008, 07:14 PM
From my other thread:

...I've worked on 60s here and there over the years, and it never ceases to amaze me the miles of vacuum spaghetti those rigs have. I definitely would want a factory emissions manual to figure out what's safe to plug off and what is still needed. In particular, I would want to make sure the charcoal canister functions more or less properly....


Does anyone have a desmogged 2f, or have done it before? I will grab the emissions manual, and I have a 2f manual, but would be great if someone knew how much I could take off. After looking at Ige's 45 and 55 with a 2f, it looks like about everything can come off. Any experts out there want some beer and pizza? :)

Thanks.


Timm

60wag
01-13-2008, 07:21 PM
I'd keep the HAC, the EGR and both of the spark advance circuits complete. Actually the HAI and the dizzy vent system and vapor recovery system are worth keeping. Hmm what's left? Aw, heck you might as well leave it all there:) Seriously, if you put some fresh tubing in there, its pretty reliable other than the frequent air pump implosions.

Shark Bait
01-13-2008, 07:21 PM
Does anyone have a desmogged 2f, or have done it before? I will grab the emissions manual, and I have a 2f manual, but would be great if someone knew how much I could take off.

Everything is gone on mine. I plugged the holes the air rail went in to. Just passed CO emissions just fine (for a '69). :D

timmbuck2
01-13-2008, 07:24 PM
I'd keep the HAC, the EGR and both of the spark advance circuits complete. Actually the HAI and the dizzy vent system and vapor recovery system are worth keeping. Hmm what's left? Aw, heck you might as well leave it all there:) Seriously, if you put some fresh tubing in there, its pretty reliable other than the frequent air pump implosions.

Problem is some pieces are missing, and I have no idea what is what. (As usual.)

:)

T

Shark Bait
01-13-2008, 09:32 PM
Older than 1975 does not require emissions equipment. If you bag it all you won't have to worry about it. You don't have to say anything about the vintage of the engine. It's a inline 6 cylinder, like they all had. My :twocents:, FWIW.

subzali
01-13-2008, 10:48 PM
I was thinking of bagging my smog stuff, but now that my smog pump is gone and my air rail is plugged, I think I'm okay with the residual "smog" tubing - I do know some of it has a purpose. There's lots of good reading on MUD though; be prepared to spend a few hours.

timmbuck2
01-14-2008, 08:53 AM
Yeah, spent a couple hours on that last night. No closer to understanding what I need to do. :rolleyes:

T


I was thinking of bagging my smog stuff, but now that my smog pump is gone and my air rail is plugged, I think I'm okay with the residual "smog" tubing - I do know some of it has a purpose. There's lots of good reading on MUD though; be prepared to spend a few hours.

MDH33
01-14-2008, 02:34 PM
My 2F is desmogged like Chris'. Plugged air rail and everything except the charcoal canister removed.

If you can find a non-usa 2bbl carb and the vacuum advance distributor, it will be much easier to desmog. SOR sells them both but they are sort of pricey. Worth the $$ in my opinion. This is the setup I'm running along with a 6 into 1 header and MSD ignition. It passes smog no problem.

Your welcome to take a look at it any time.

Rzeppa
01-14-2008, 06:49 PM
I'd keep the HAC, the EGR and both of the spark advance circuits complete. Actually the HAI and the dizzy vent system and vapor recovery system are worth keeping. Hmm what's left? Aw, heck you might as well leave it all there:) Seriously, if you put some fresh tubing in there, its pretty reliable other than the frequent air pump implosions.
The EGR serves no useful purpose at our elevation, and reduces performance, fuel economy and increases under-hood temperatures. I would definitely ditch it. Agree with HAC. My main advice to Timm when I was poking around that engine and rig last Saturday was to make sure that a charcoal canister can be employed. He doesn't have one, but has the later model fuel tank which is intended to be used with one.

If I had the factory emissions manual I am sure I could figure it out. I also know that Jim Chenoweth knows exactly the proper trick for "properly" desmogging a 60. Ironically, it does include recurving the centrifugal advance of the distributor to compensate for removing the EGR.

Rzeppa
01-14-2008, 06:53 PM
My 2F is desmogged like Chris'. Plugged air rail and everything except the charcoal canister removed.

If you can find a non-usa 2bbl carb and the vacuum advance distributor, it will be much easier to desmog. SOR sells them both but they are sort of pricey. Worth the $$ in my opinion. This is the setup I'm running along with a 6 into 1 header and MSD ignition. It passes smog no problem.

Your welcome to take a look at it any time.The FJ60 setup Timm's using already has a vacuum advance distributor. Dual vacuum advance in fact. The second advance is for the HAC.

The carb is dirty but appears perfectly serviceable. I wouldn't pop the $$$ for the non-USA version, but would instead plug off the unneeded ports and desmog using it.

60wag
01-14-2008, 08:17 PM
If I had the factory emissions manual I am sure I could figure it out. I also know that Jim Chenoweth knows exactly the proper trick for "properly" desmogging a 60. Ironically, it does include recurving the centrifugal advance of the distributor to compensate for removing the EGR.


That's why I'd leave the EGR. Without modifying the dizzy, you'll likely get some knocking if you have decent compression.

Rzeppa
01-15-2008, 07:24 PM
That's why I'd leave the EGR. Without modifying the dizzy, you'll likely get some knocking if you have decent compression.

Let's see, change out a couple of weights and get better mileage, performance and lower under-hood temps. Or jury-rig the existing system (or find an FJ60 "computer") and refit a 1973 FJ40 with all the plumbing, harness wiring and $ensor$ to make it exactly the same as an FJ60. Hmmmm, decisions, decisions...

:-)

Thing is, Timm got most of the 2F stuff from an FJ60 engine, but virtually none of the chassis and body stuff. The emissions subsystems on a USA spec 60 are fairly complex, and interactive. I agree, that when everything is working properly, it works decent, albeit with a hit on mileage and performance. But I've seen so many poorly running 60s, plus so many improperly desmogged rigs (both 60s and 40s), I think it's worthwhile to simply desmog it correctly, which includes going to lighter weights in the distributor for less centrifugal advance at higher RPMs.

Even if you are passionate about making sure your ACTUAL emissions aren't harming the environment any more than the best case, I was schooled on EGRs by, of all people, the pHD director of the Colorado AIR program. When I imported my FJ45, I had to take it down to their main headquarters in Denver, rather than an Envirotest place, in order for them to test it with their fancy stuff. Yes, they put it on the treadmill down there, and hooked a bunch of pretty cool instrumentation up to it.

I wish I could remember the fellow's name off the top of my head (I know he signed off on my EPA waiver), but he gave me quite a lesson in what matters and what doesn't, especially in our locale. He took quite an interest in the truck, and eagerly took over the testing personally from his head tech. As he adjusted my carb (yeah, try to get Enviro-ripoff do that!), he explained that EGR is for lower elevations, and doesn't do squat for us up here.

The EGR is to reduce NxOx emissions, and they are formed from high combustion temperatures. By introducing spent exhaust gasses back into the mixture before the combustion chambers, the fuel/air mixture is diluted by the (essentially) inert exhaust, and it reduces the temperature of combustion by reducing the potential chemical exotherm. At our elevation, with the carb operating properly, the fuel is metered to a leaner mixture, and the total moles of fuel and air are reduced, basically achieving the same effect. The only time EGR would have any effect on NxOx emissions at our elevation would be when there is forced induction, such as turbo or super charging.

SteveH
01-16-2008, 11:09 AM
Is anyone worried about the drive-by emission testing for Denver that I read about? They claim this roadside real-time tailpipe screening deal will begin in Denver in Jan. 08.

I doubt desmogging an old 2F would really affect it's full-throttle emission output, but if this testing is going on, you can bet some old Land Cruiser will fail this test.

wesintl
01-16-2008, 11:33 AM
From what I understand they will send you a notice that you are a high polluter and have to go in to get smog check. It's another good intentioned backassward Bureaucracy.


here is the jimc diagram. There are also some pretty detailed desmogs on mud if you search.

http://www.ih8mud.com/tech/smog/72706FJ60desmog.jpg

MDH33
01-16-2008, 11:43 AM
The FJ60 setup Timm's using already has a vacuum advance distributor. Dual vacuum advance in fact. The second advance is for the HAC.

The carb is dirty but appears perfectly serviceable. I wouldn't pop the $$$ for the non-USA version, but would instead plug off the unneeded ports and desmog using it.


Just wanted to give him another option rather than trying to make the complicated 60 system function. I like to keep it simple. It might cost a little more up front, but the ease of maintenance and dialing it in make the early 2bbl carb and distributor money well spent. just my opinion, that emissions stuff makes me crazy.

FJ60 carb spaghetti (from my first wack at emissions diagnostics on my 60):

http://mdhuber.smugmug.com/photos/36854135-M.jpg

FJ40 2bbl carb spaghetti (single vacuum line to the distributor):

http://mdhuber.smugmug.com/photos/176916132-M.jpg

Rzeppa
01-16-2008, 12:52 PM
Is anyone worried about the drive-by emission testing for Denver that I read about? They claim this roadside real-time tailpipe screening deal will begin in Denver in Jan. 08.

I doubt desmogging an old 2F would really affect it's full-throttle emission output, but if this testing is going on, you can bet some old Land Cruiser will fail this test.Not worried - yet. They've been phasing in the system for a couple years now. They used to park a van on the on-ramp to 6th Ave at Kipling. I used to drive by it in my 71 before I freshened the rings and never got a letter or anything. That engine burned so much oil Kevin made me tail gun on Slaughterhouse Gulch one year. I explained that it wanted to be a diesel, but he still didn't want to be driving through all the blue smoke.

;-)

corsair23
01-16-2008, 12:52 PM
Is anyone worried about the drive-by emission testing for Denver that I read about? They claim this roadside real-time tailpipe screening deal will begin in Denver in Jan. 08.

I doubt desmogging an old 2F would really affect it's full-throttle emission output, but if this testing is going on, you can bet some old Land Cruiser will fail this test.

Not worried, yet. They've actually been doing this for quite awhile now and I was lucky enough to hit a couple last year and apparently passed in the LX as my renewal states I've already passed the e-test :thumb:

Rzeppa
01-16-2008, 12:58 PM
here is the jimc diagram. There are also some pretty detailed desmogs on mud if you search.

http://www.ih8mud.com/tech/smog/72706FJ60desmog.jpg

I clicked on that link and got this:

"Remote Linking Forbidden"

How interesting that tons of my stuff are remote linked from Mud, but it isn't permitted to do it the other way around. One of the things that used to tick me off was when a user followed a link on mud to my content on my site, the browser remained framed with mud! I think that's been corrected, but people didn't realize they had left mud and were actually on my site.

wesintl
01-16-2008, 12:58 PM
I don't think you guys understand they are flipping what the vehilce does. Instead of driving by to get and e test. It will now only be there to catch gross polluters OVER the limit. Before you didn't care unless you needed it for an etest. I bet they probably saw a ton of gross polluters but couldn't do anything. It's just another strategy that IMHO won't do anything to curb the brown cloud.

wesintl
01-16-2008, 01:04 PM
I clicked on that link and got this:

"Remote Linking Forbidden"

How interesting that tons of my stuff are remote linked from Mud, but it isn't permitted to do it the other way around. One of the things that used to tick me off was when a user followed a link on mud to my content on my site, the browser remained framed with mud! I think that's been corrected, but people didn't realize they had left mud and were actually on my site.

wow that blows. I understand hotlinking and it sucking up the providers bandwith but it kills alot of what the internet (connecting people and things) is for IMHO.

anyway Timm if you go to mud and the techincal links It's under engine/fuel it's the old rich adams/ chenowith diagram.

Rzeppa
01-16-2008, 08:06 PM
It's just another strategy that IMHO won't do anything to curb the brown cloud.
100% agreed on that. The AIR program dude who did my truck explained that the brown cloud was mostly particulates, which isn't measured by the mobile vans anyway. Some of them are kicked up by vehicular traffic (yeah - how do you curb THAT?), and some of them (small fraction) are diesel soot. But the greatest fraction is not caused by humans, and has been there for millions of years whenever there's an inversion, but is caused by particulates which had been kicked up by previous winds getting caught in the inversion, trapped in the Platte River Valley. Just as we violate the EPA ozone levels every summer, most ozone is caused by our naturally occurring high altitude sunlight (UV) even if there were no anthropogenic NxOx or VOCs to enhance it's formation, and the brown cloud was there long before Henry Ford ever had a vehicular gleam in his eye.

MDH33
01-17-2008, 08:51 AM
...and the brown cloud was there long before Henry Ford ever had a vehicular gleam in his eye.



Driven east on 76 lately past all the gas wells? The air is so rotten that it's hard not to gag as you drive through with your windows up, and the color of the "air" turns a nice shade of brownish green...

Sorry that Timms 2F desmog thread has been hijacked. ;)

timmbuck2
01-17-2008, 10:35 AM
Hopefully this will be a moot point for me if the 55 parts truck I am getting has a good 2f. :) Then this thread can continue with whoever buys my FJ60 2f!

T

SteveH
01-17-2008, 11:31 AM
JeFff> Some of them are kicked up by vehicular traffic (yeah - how do you curb THAT?)

The city of Colo Springs has a mandate to begin sweeping up the sand they put on the road within 24 hours of applying it, in order to combat the brown cloud. I personally think it's a waste of time on surface streets. And this 'dust control' nonsense has led them to increase the salt content of the road mix from 5% to 20%. Just what we needed: more 'fender solvent'.


Steve

Shark Bait
01-17-2008, 12:38 PM
Well, I'm running a de-smogged 2F, carb rebuilt by Jim C. and an electronic distributor in my project 40. I haven't tooled around in the 40 yet, but I don't anticipate any performance problems. It did pass emissions (for a '69). :D