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View Full Version : Is a 9.5XP winch enough for an 80?


60wag
01-17-2008, 08:13 AM
Is a 9.5XP winch enough for an 80? I think it has the 5/16 cable rather than the 3/8 cable found on the M12000. I wish they had the 150ft cable capacity of the 8274 but that's not going to happen. Does the synthetic rope take up less space than the wire rope?

treerootCO
01-17-2008, 08:36 AM
I talked to Christo about this and the largest winch I can install in the ShortBus bumper is the 9.5. Use a snatchblock if needed and you should be fine.

RockRunner
01-17-2008, 08:53 AM
Is a 9.5XP winch enough for an 80? I think it has the 5/16 cable rather than the 3/8 cable found on the M12000. I wish they had the 150ft cable capacity of the 8274 but that's not going to happen. Does the synthetic rope take up less space than the wire rope?

Yes and no, depends if you are buried to the frame rails like Jeff in the snow or just pulling up the hill. Using a snatch block will help of course but remember the winch is only pulling the 9000 pounds on the last level of cable. The less line is out the less weight the winch can pull.

Synthetic line does take up less room, not sure how much less that is something for the pros to answer.

If you read that recovery post in CA you'll see that no winch is big enough to pull you out when you are buried in deep mud, snow or muck. Again within reason of course.

Since you can not get a larger winch in your rig the answer is moot anyway but still good to know. Go with the 9.5 Ti and synthetic line, as much as you can spool and don't worry. :cheers:

Uncle Ben
01-17-2008, 08:55 AM
Is a 9.5XP winch enough for an 80? I think it has the 5/16 cable rather than the 3/8 cable found on the M12000. I wish they had the 150ft cable capacity of the 8274 but that's not going to happen. Does the synthetic rope take up less space than the wire rope?

I wouldn't go any smaller! I think a 9.5 does use a 3/8" rope! Syth is the same size as steel (although it will compress some) and like steel you can add another 20 feet or so but is isn't a good idea because chances of it pulling into the spool are higher with more wraps and you are also decreasing your mechanical advantage. Best solution with large winches with decreased rope capacity is carry a "winch extension" in your goodie bag. I broke an extension on the St. Fuaw! run! It was rated at 20k and pulled apart in the middle! (NOTE: The energy stored in the extension made the winch rope retract all the way to in front of the truck!) I am going to replace it with 50' of 7/16" Amsteel Blue with large thimbles at each end. It will take up less space in my goodie bag than the strap, be stronger than the rope on my winch and still weigh around 4#'s and like the winch rope will not store up as much kinetic energy!

Beater
01-17-2008, 09:01 AM
I ran an 8k, and I can say that it was more than adequate in the situations I used it for. Snatch blocks rule though, and I have used two before in order to get more line out.

corsair23
01-17-2008, 06:10 PM
Yes and no, depends if you are buried to the frame rails like Jeff in the snow or just pulling up the hill. Using a snatch block will help of course but remember the winch is only pulling the 9000 pounds on the last level of cable. The less line is out the less weight the winch can pull.

Word!! :hill:

What does Bill have on the Red Chili? If I'm not mistaken it is a 9000# winch maybe even an XD9000 like I have and it pulled me out of the goo after we strapped his rear end to a tree. If you don't go snow bashing or mud bogging then it should be adequate. But, it isn't always yourself you're winching though :)

Convert
01-17-2008, 07:51 PM
I wouldn't go any smaller! I think a 9.5 does use a 3/8" rope! Syth is the same size as steel (although it will compress some) and like steel you can add another 20 feet or so but is isn't a good idea because chances of it pulling into the spool are higher with more wraps and you are also decreasing your mechanical advantage. Best solution with large winches with decreased rope capacity is carry a "winch extension" in your goodie bag. I broke an extension on the St. Fuaw! run! It was rated at 20k and pulled apart in the middle! (NOTE: The energy stored in the extension made the winch rope retract all the way to in front of the truck!) I am going to replace it with 50' of 7/16" Amsteel Blue with large thimbles at each end. It will take up less space in my goodie bag than the strap, be stronger than the rope on my winch and still weigh around 4#'s and like the winch rope will not store up as much kinetic energy!
I agree I also picked up 50' of winch rope as an extension after St. Fuaw.I was surprised to see the synthetic rope recoiling towards the truck!

Red_Chili
01-17-2008, 10:13 PM
I run a 9000, and I would regard it as adequate for the Chili. I would want something bigger for an 80, but that is just me. Maybe. I have met others who feel similarly.

powderpig
01-18-2008, 07:08 AM
I currently have a 9.5 XP and so far have found it to do everything I need. As mentioned before(above) you will want a winch extension and 1-2 pulley blocks as these can help a lot in the right problem. When I though about this my truck is a little over the 1.5 X rule, but with a 6hp motor and about the same gearing as other winches, I felt it was underrated.
I had a chance to use it at the walden photo shoot on my truck and it never stalled pulling me through snow at the height of the hood.
They say you should never go more lenght then what the winch came with, So if you have 100 ft you should not go over on the spool. That said, I think most winch drums could handle a bit more length. but you would have to watch out when you winch the line in as UB suggest.
With 1 snatch block set up right, you just increased mechanical advantage to almost 2 to 1, with 2 snatches you increased MA almost 3 to 1. I say almost as there is not free ride and parisitic loss happens in any system(friction, drag, etc). So the winch when set up is pulling a load that seem like it is less.
Hope this helps, Robbie

Beater
01-18-2008, 07:39 AM
I think the biggest error that is made in recovery regarding winches is rope/wire length. Most people go way to big on the spool. If you research winch pull ratings, you will notice that the pulling power goes down exponentially with the more wire is wound around the drum. Think of it like gearing on a bicycle or motorcycle. a long winch rope length, meaning spooling out as much as you can will make your pull a better one.

Nay
01-18-2008, 08:01 AM
Why not the Warn 9.0Rc that only weighs 50 lbs and has 50 ft on the drum (you'll always have near max advantage), with the extension synthetic/snatch blocks as needed?

Is the 80 too much for this "little" winch?

Uncle Ben
01-18-2008, 08:17 AM
I will bring up another important factor......winch rope diameter and tensile strength. If you are running a 8k winch on a heavy vehicle you are fine 98% of the time. Unfortunately that remaining 2% is just as important if not more important! When you double a winch line it is correct that you effectively double the load capacity. You also now have two ropes supporting the load thus cutting the load in half for each line EXCEPT the point that is going around the pulley at the anchor point, that is still a single line!!!!!!!!!! An 8k winch with it's 5/16" line is not heavy enough when you get to that extreme situation! I first had the brilliant idea on my 80 that since I had a 12.5k winch I could load it with 150' of 5/16" rope instead of the 100' of 3/8" it came with as single line is probably all I will ever need. It was a great plan and worked flawlessly for all but one incident. The day I assessed the large rock that had blocked Rollins Pass road. I rescued a couple guys in a J*p that had crossed this monster drift once but could not get back across when they tried to leave. I easily winched them through the drift....piece of cake! There was no point in my going any further as I was by myself and the only other folks up there couldn't help me get unstuck if there was 4 of them! I turned around and found the guys stuck in the first drift we had to cross. I rigged the pulley and winched them through from behind. When I crossed I hit the holes they had dug and I too was buried to the rails in heavy wet and crusted snow. The cable worked for my recovery for about 3 feet until the snow load from me plowing snow with the front diff and exceeded the load capacity of the line...."snap!" No problem as I carry a rod and thimble so I just re-rigged the line shorter...."snap!" Ended up digging for hours to clear the drift ahead of me so I could pull my self free. It's true that most winches are under-rated in the pulling power but the ratings are also based on other factors such as drum brake holding strength and of course effective rope capacity. Just in case your wondering....5/16" Amsteel Blue is rated at 19k tensile strength when new! If I would have been able to dig myself out I would have needed something quite large to get me out! When I broke the extension strap at the St. Fuaw run that 2" minimal stretch strap was rated at 20k! BTW it was the strap that failed and not the stitching! Food for thought! I'll stand by my recommendation that for an 80 you need at LEAST a 9k rated winch!

leiniesred
01-18-2008, 08:19 AM
I find my Warn 8000M barely enough for my 4200# truck. I haven't stalled it pulling only my truck, but close. close.

With 2 stuck trucks (mine and the one I was pulling) I have to double it.
The trick is that I often find me using my winch not when I'm stuck, but someone else is. That is when I see the need to carry more power.

UB: Let's get talking to Scott@rockstomper about winch extension group buys.

Uncle Ben
01-18-2008, 08:23 AM
I find my Warn 8000M barely enough for my 4200# truck. I haven't stalled it pulling only my truck, but close. close.

With 2 stuck trucks (mine and the one I was pulling) I have to double it.
The trick is that I often find me using my winch not when I'm stuck, but someone else is. That is when I see the need to carry more power.

UB: Let's get talking to Scott@rockstomper about winch extension group buys.

As I mentioned in my previous short story :rolleyes: I have a rod and thimble so we can probably get a good break if we bout everything in bulk and made up our own!

nakman
01-18-2008, 08:44 AM
winch story: Red Chili & I were up at Yankee Doodle lake w/ BRD Brian, scoping out the post & cable project. Some guy ran down and said there's a full size Dodge that tried to drive down & around the snow drift, just past the parking area where the road currently stops and you can hike up to the collapsed tunnel. We went up there and saw that he was fairly buried in the mud, and if we drove down to him with a strap we would have likely been in the same boat, not to mention also driving off trail. We ended up strapping Red Chili to the back of my 80 (so we could anchor together), then from up at the parking area combined all 150' of my winch cable, plus 4 straps end to end, down to the Dodge... it was easily 200' away. Had I not had the M12k maybe it wouldn't have been so easy to yank this guy out, hard to say, but we were glad I had it that day. And no opportunity for a double line, without additional lines and/or 7 or 8 more straps.


But you'll probably be fine with the 9.5, but there may be a case where you wish you had a bigger one, and hopefully then someone else will be with you and the two of you will come up with something. I think your bumper decision is more important than your winch decision though. If you get an ARB then go for the M12 just because you can, but if you get the Slee well then your winch decision is obvious.

leiniesred
01-18-2008, 09:17 AM
Sharpie marker cap with clip removed works GREAT as an impromptu fid.

For a fid, (on 3/8ths amsteel) I found that the cap from a regular old FINE sharpie marker, with the pocket clip broken off, works great. Use a bike spoke, screwdriver, whatever to jam it farther up the core.

I shoved the running end of the rope into the cap, then back into the center core, then used a screwdriver to jam it farther, popped the cap out the side, removed cap out one end and screwdriver out the other and pulled tight. Eye splice done!

Red_Chili
01-18-2008, 09:51 AM
My Amsteel is getting a bit frayed. Still serviceable, but... hey, a group Amsteel buy sounds like a capital idea! The old line would make a very serviceable extension.

sleeoffroad
01-18-2008, 09:52 AM
I have a M8000 on the Shortbus and I have never stalled it out. I have broken a steel wire cable before, but never stalled it. I have a 9.5 XP on the VlakVark and never stalled that one out as well. For the stuff we do, they work, now if you were from the south and do a lot of mudding, I would say it might not cut it.

Shark Bait
01-18-2008, 10:00 AM
Do you guys recommend the synthetic line over wire?

sleeoffroad
01-18-2008, 10:04 AM
I say use the wire that came with the winch until it is trashed, then change over.

Nay
01-18-2008, 10:05 AM
But you'll probably be fine with the 9.5, but there may be a case where you wish you had a bigger one, and hopefully then someone else will be with you and the two of you will come up with something. I think your bumper decision is more important than your winch decision though. If you get an ARB then go for the M12 just because you can, but if you get the Slee well then your winch decision is obvious.

The personal problem I have with this approach is an M12 weighs 136 lbs. Added to the weight of the ARB winch bumper, and you are adding material weight to a rig that is already too heavy, especially at our elevations. You start changing your suspension bias to load bearing in order to accommodate these "heavy duty weight" approaches.

I get the solving for 1% use, especially in extraction, so don't get me wrong - I see the tradeoff. Having said that, I'm for the polar opposite. I really want to get an opinion on the 9.0Rc, which weighs 54 lbs and is compact with only 50 ft. of synthetic on the drum.

From there I could add 2 or 3 lengths of "adder" line at just a few more pounds sitting in the cargo area when I need more line. Mounted into my tube bumper I'm at maybe 60 lbs over stock in total with a 9K winch with far better clearance and upwards of 150lbs weight savings than an ARB mounted M12.

This is biasing entirely for crawling as opposed to complex snow extractions, which makes great sense for me until I go get stuck in the snow 250 ft. from any reasonable extraction point :D.

Red_Chili
01-18-2008, 10:53 AM
136 lbs even with synthetic rope?

'Course, SlimFast for all the occupants might result in a net/net wash on weight... :lmao:

nakman
01-18-2008, 10:58 AM
Nay I know where you're coming from wanting to stay light.. we should swap trucks some time to see what the difference is. I suspect we won't be able to tell, particularly since your gears are different. I'm not sure the difference though, 6200 pounds vs. 6000 pounds because of smaller winch & bumper, but maybe being way out in front of the truck you actually can feel it. Then again, changing the weight pushing down on the front, the lighter truck won't grab as well under heavy articulation right? Who's ever sat on a car fender to help get the thing unstuck...

We could debate this all day, and heck it's fun to do. I've always said if I want to shave a half pound off my mountain bike the best place to start is my waist line. The fact that I'm on the thing peddling is a lot more important than if the thing weighs in at 28 vs. 27.5 pounds... a quick trip to the woods after breakfast will make more difference than that anyway :) :bolt:

Uncle Ben
01-18-2008, 12:12 PM
There is often years between tough extractions! Last year and this year have been awesome snow years thus the big winch is worth it's weight in gold! Most years, and if you don't do snow runs, a small and lighter winch is more than enough. I am an aggressive 'wheeler and especially when I'm Elk hunting my vehicle will get to places few if anyone else in the area could get to so I have to have equipment that will save my arse. If you are more conservative especially on snow runs then lighter duty equipment will be a wiser choice! Like the whole vehicle build thing....you HAVE to decide what you need or will have your vehicle do for you and build it accordingly! Mine just has to get to Starbucks in any weather and location so my build will differ from others! ;) :hill: :thumb: :bowdown::kevin: = :Princess::zilla:

FJBen
01-18-2008, 02:27 PM
They all just have to get to Starbucks in any weather and location so join me and the latte!

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b382/FJBen/6619ff4d.gif

Nay
01-18-2008, 02:30 PM
That's true - my rig wheels much better when :Princess: and kids stay home :hill:

Shark Bait
01-18-2008, 09:44 PM
I say use the wire that came with the winch until it is trashed, then change over.

Makes sense. :p:

treerootCO
01-19-2008, 03:33 PM
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b382/FJBen/6619ff4d.gif

Starbucks!

Uncle Ben
01-19-2008, 03:54 PM
Starbucks!


You forgot one.....