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View Full Version : Dual Transfer Case and front locker


MDH33
01-17-2008, 09:57 AM
In preparation for Moab and Rubithon, I am thinking about possibly adding a Marlin Crawler ToyBox to my FJ40. Anyone done this mod? Not sure exactly what's involved.

Currently I'm running a 2F with a 3speed trans and TC. I need to pull them out to fix a leaking rear main seal and I was thinking that while I have it out I would try adding the ToyBox. I know there are other Trans/TC combos that are better than what I have, but keeping the stock 3 speed TC will let me run my OEM PTO with some modification and if I keep the stock 3 speed I won't have to change out the bellhousing.

I've done some searching on MUD about this install and couldn't find much. It sounds like I would have to customize some sort of cross member/skid plate? New Drive shafts? another hole in the trans tunnel? Anything else?

Also want to add a front locker. I have an Aussie locker in the rear. Would adding another up front be a bad choice? I don't drive my 40 in the snow much and really only use the front on trail.

Any advice for these mods appreciated! :thumb:

Uncle Ben
01-17-2008, 10:02 AM
In preparation for Moab and Rubithon, I am thinking about possibly adding a Marlin Crawler ToyBox to my FJ40. Anyone done this mod? Not sure exactly what's involved.

Currently I'm running a 2F with a 3speed trans and TC. I need to pull them out to fix a leaking rear main seal and I was thinking that while I have it out I would try adding the ToyBox. I know there are other Trans/TC combos that are better than what I have, but keeping the stock 3 speed TC will let me run my OEM PTO with some modification and if I keep the stock 3 speed I won't have to change out the bellhousing.

I've done some searching on MUD about this install and couldn't find much. It sounds like I would have to customize some sort of cross member/skid plate? New Drive shafts? another hole in the trans tunnel? Anything else?

Also want to add a front locker. I have an Aussie locker in the rear. Would adding another up front be a bad choice? I don't drive my 40 in the snow much and really only use the front on trail.

Any advice for these mods appreciated! :thumb:

The Toy box is good but have you considered just running a Orion instead? Your currant configuration including PTO will be the same, you gain a cast steel case in place of the cast aluminum and your stock shifters will now let you have a 4:1 advantage! Cheaper in the long run as you don't need to alter anything!

MDH33
01-17-2008, 10:12 AM
The Toy box is good but have you considered just running a Orion instead? Your currant configuration including PTO will be the same, you gain a cast steel case in place of the cast aluminum and your stock shifters will now let you have a 4:1 advantage! Cheaper in the long run as you don't need to alter anything!

Will the 3 speed TC PTO assembly bolt onto the orion case?

Uncle Ben
01-17-2008, 10:17 AM
Will the 3 speed TC PTO assembly bolt onto the orion case?

The openings are the same as is the tranny output shaft....I don't know whay they wouldn't! Call AA and ask! If ya go that route ping me and I'll give you a possible vendor cantact # that could possibly make you (or your wallet) smile! ;)

subzali
01-17-2008, 10:18 AM
It should, you put all your current gears into the Orion case, so as long as it has the cutout for it...you can always call AA and ask. The problem with the Toybox on 40s is that it adds 7" to your drivetrain, and our rear d-shafts are short enough already.

Hatfield has a writeup in TT about doing the Toybox in his piggy, I can scan it and send it to you. An autolocker in front only concerns me for driving in the snow with your hubs locked...if specifically for CM and Rubithon and other trails, probably not a bad choice. It's what Treeroot has been running.

Uncle Ben
01-17-2008, 10:33 AM
It should, you put all your current gears into the Orion case, so as long as it has the cutout for it...you can always call AA and ask. The problem with the Toybox on 40s is that it adds 7" to your drivetrain, and our rear d-shafts are short enough already.

Hatfield has a writeup in TT about doing the Toybox in his piggy, I can scan it and send it to you. An autolocker in front only concerns me for driving in the snow with your hubs locked...if specifically for CM and Rubithon and other trails, probably not a bad choice. It's what Treeroot has been running.

Orion does not use the all the same gears as the stock T-case or you would still have a 2.23 ratio! :rolleyes: :p: I avoided replying about the front auto locker question as the web wheelers will get all fired up (I know....I just opened the gate anyway...) As long as you have hi and low 2WD as an option an auto locker drives fine. Problems you will have are....if you don't have power steering it is a be-atch to turn a locked front end (any locked front end).....if you need all 4 to climb a muddy road you will probably not get out of the ruts unless you can disengage the front locker(or turn out one hub temporarily).....If you are under power on a slick street turning can be interesting UNLESS you back off the freaking throttle!....you really need to either Cryo your currant birfs :rolleyes: or invest into some Longfields (cryoed :rolleyes:)NOTE: stock will be fine IF you stay under 33" tires and are not an aggresive off-highway enthusiast! ;))

AxleIke
01-17-2008, 10:36 AM
I am biased,

I have driven a truck with a lunchbox style locker in the front, such as the aussie. I found it extremely difficult to turn. It stayed locked anytime i was giving it power, and it was almost impossible. The guy had a twin stick set up, and that made things a little easier, but man, I personally wouldn't go that route.

wesintl
01-17-2008, 10:36 AM
a toy box with your lift the ds will be short and steep angles. IMHO you would have to extend the wheelbase. I would look into the orion first too.

MDH33
01-17-2008, 10:51 AM
Good advice, looks like the Orion is a better choice. I found a writeup Poser did on MUD with pics. Looks like the PTO inspection cover is there and should accept the PTO drive:

http://forum.ih8mud.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=119346&stc=1&d=1170828544

The consensus sounds like a front locker will be a $problem$. I would probably need to upgrade my axles and steering...

Uncle Ben
01-17-2008, 10:54 AM
I am biased,

I have driven a truck with a lunchbox style locker in the front, such as the aussie. I found it extremely difficult to turn. It stayed locked anytime i was giving it power, and it was almost impossible. The guy had a twin stick set up, and that made things a little easier, but man, I personally wouldn't go that route.

I have run dual Detroits in Wildrice for 25+ years (well there was LR's for several of those) and I would not run anything else in it! In hard core wheeling if it takes 4 wheels pulling to get you into someplace it will probably take 4 wheels pulling to get you out! Even though the masses are gonna chime in and say ARB's never fail :rolleyes:, I have seen plenty of rigs on a strap because they no longer had 4 wheels pulling! On the street you just learn to deal with the quirks! I completely agree with Isaac that auto lockers in the front on the street are a PITA! If you have the money and it's a dual purpose or more street-than-trail truck, stay open or do a selectable in front! WR is 90/10 trail/street truck but it was 40/50 back several morphs ago. NOTE: I will also revise my above statement and say I will most likely be putting a ARB in the front of WR when done with this next morph so I can try to let the custom Longfields in the front have a fighting chance of survival with 40" near flat Iroks! :cheers:

subzali
01-17-2008, 11:24 AM
Orion does not use the all the same gears as the stock T-case or you would still have a 2.23 ratio! :rolleyes: :p:

My bad, forgot to mention you change a couple. :p:

Martin, I don't *think* a front locker is an absolute necessity for the Rubicon or most trails at Moab (and somebody can correct me if I'm wrong) - If it were me, and this is probably because my 40 is a winter street driver, I would stay away from auto front locker and save up for selectable.

Uncle Ben
01-17-2008, 11:37 AM
My bad, forgot to mention you change a couple. :p:

Martin, I don't *think* a front locker is an absolute necessity for the Rubicon or most trails at Moab (and somebody can correct me if I'm wrong) - If it were me, and this is probably because my 40 is a winter street driver, I would stay away from auto front locker and save up for selectable.

"You have learned much....Grasshopper!" ;)

subzali
01-17-2008, 11:40 AM
I just keep watching the masters...:bowdown: :D

AxleIke
01-17-2008, 12:13 PM
Trail only rigs are different. For UB's application, detroits make a lot of sense.

ARB's do fail, Elockers do fail, Detroits do break. I'd say there is no perfect product.

In the end, I think it is personal preference. Many, many people get used to driving an auto or lunchbox on the street. I personally could never do it. Can't stand them.

Good luck.

Beater
01-17-2008, 12:17 PM
I ran a tru-trac for years in a full-time set up. NEVER a problem, except once in an icestorm on the street. But seriously, how often does that happen in Denver? Indy/chicago maybe, but not here.

I will say this though, there is a HUGE difference between a tru-trac and the others. tru-tracs are trully torque sensing, with soft engagement/disengagement. not like a detroit or aussie.

The only negative I could see is that you are a stick, and soft lockers/slips sometimes need a little brake pressure to "fool" into being needed occasionally.

Red_Chili
01-17-2008, 12:28 PM
ARBs never fail.











:bolt:
7461

Uncle Ben
01-17-2008, 12:34 PM
Trail only rigs are different. For UB's application, detroits make a lot of sense.

ARB's do fail, Elockers do fail, Detroits do break. I'd say there is no perfect product.

In the end, I think it is personal preference. Many, many people get used to driving an auto or lunchbox on the street. I personally could never do it. Can't stand them.

Good luck.

Never heard of a Detroit failure! R&P's strip/break, axles snap and even housing's fail but Detroits usually are salvageable! I am not saying however it wasn't the Detroits presence that aided the other failures! :rolleyes: :lmao: E-lockers and Air Lockers also rarely fail but the actuators (air or electric) malfunction leaving the locker useless.

I was generalizing about the use of WR too over the course of 25-30 years. Once upon a time I was just like the currant 40 operators in the club...I had a 64 original convertible FJ-40 and I wanted to keep it as stock as I could and only modify it to suit my needs. After a certain point it's usefulness to me was more a trail rig than a DD. I first had a LA Locker (who remembers?) in the rear then one in the front, then fine spline axles in the rear....then the front....then fine spine pinions in the rear....then the front....and so on....and so on.....and so on..... :rolleyes:


Just an aside note that John jogged loose......In Long Grain (my 62) I ran a Lock Right in the rear and an Auburn in the front.....It was great on slick streets, worked fantastic on most off road adventures and worked OK on big rocks. That is a good consideration as you can usually get them used fairly reasonable and they are a good median between open and locked!

Uncle Ben
01-17-2008, 12:41 PM
ARBs never fail until you really need to count on them!











:bolt:
7461


Fixed if for you! ;)

:bill: :bolt:

Shark Bait
01-17-2008, 12:45 PM
I ran Aussie Lockers front and rear in my 55 and wasn't unhappy. That being said, I popped for ARBs front & rear for my orange 40. The ToyBox was real nice, and with the long wheel base, the drive shaft was not an issue. IMO, the drive shaft will be too short in a 40 for a ToyBox. Orion is the way to go for a 40. :)

Red_Chili
01-17-2008, 12:52 PM
Hey UB, isn't that pretty much true of EVERYTHING? They never fail when they are just sitting there. Ever break an axle driving to the grocery store? :lmao:
Mine have never failed though. The O-rings have needed replacing. I do have redundant compressors and one did fail, while the other was perfectly serviceable, though! :thumb:
It's all about redundancy.
Or about having two things to rely on, one or the other... :lmao:

Uncle Ben
01-17-2008, 12:56 PM
Hey UB, isn't that pretty much true of EVERYTHING? They never fail when they are just sitting there. Ever break an axle driving to the grocery store? :lmao:
Mine have never failed though. The O-rings have needed replacing. I do have redundant compressors and one did fail, while the other was perfectly serviceable, though! :thumb:
It's all about redundancy.
Or about having two things to rely on, one or the other... :lmao:



:rolleyes::lmao: Actually I did have one break going to the grocery store! :lmao: Snapped a rear axle on Long Grain pulling onto the highway! :doh: :rolleyes:

BTW Bill, we are talking about rigs that actually go off asphalt! :eek::lmao::bill::bolt::bolt::bolt::bolt::bolt: http://www.dinicartoons.com/forum/images/smilies/Embarrassed/hide.gif

Rezarf
01-17-2008, 01:04 PM
FWIW, IanB installed a toybox... I think that is what it is. He might be of some help of what it takes to instal and get moving.... but his rig isn't moving :eek: :hill:

leiniesred
01-17-2008, 01:21 PM
I've run open, tru-trac, and ez lockered, and ARB'd front diffs on the same truck.


Open = yeah.

Tru-trac = fine on the street in any condition, little squirrly on snow/ice, and only marginally better on the trail. Use the brakes to provide the bias to get it to lock up when a tire is in the air? That is how I broke the output shaft on the front differential.

Detroit EZ-Locker = not quite as nice as a REAL detroit, but pretty close. On the road, my top 4x4 speed was dropped to about 30MPH due to squirrlyness. On the trail it made things easy, except steering. If you can get to 2Low (twin stick? dual cases?) then you can unlock for those sharp turns on slickrock. Also, on sidehills locked, you tend to go downhill a lot more. (weight transfer to the low side = smaller effective tire radius so it "pushes" you down the hill.) On steep descents with compression braking going on, you are going to be locked the entire way. Steering will be tough. My wife STILL won't drive my truck after experiencing this; driving downhill, couldn't turn, almost rolled truck. (I think I turned off the engine for her before it went over.)

ARB=Perfect on the street open. On the trail, the only hard part it remembering to engage it. It unlocks easily. (sometimes I have to goose it, but that's about it)

UB: Jkimmel wrecked a detroit locker when something broke. Here the theory: The auto-lockers all have some backlash. This is enough room to let things unwind a little more than an ARB or E-locker when something breaks. The extra momentum is what breaks the detroits when the ARB lives on. I have had line/air supply problems only so far. All easily fixed on the trail. I haven't had to replace an ARB o-ring in 3+ years either. Again. the worst part for me is remembering to turn the things on. I didn't have this problem with the automatic lockers!

MDH33
01-17-2008, 01:27 PM
So it sounds like the perfect combo for my rig would be the Orion and ARBs. How much coin is a full ARB setup these days?

Uncle Ben
01-17-2008, 01:28 PM
So it sounds like the perfect combo for my rig would be the Orion and ARBs. How much coin is a full ARB setup these days?


OUCH! If ya gotta ask you better save up a while longer! :o

MDH33
01-17-2008, 01:36 PM
OUCH! If ya gotta ask you better save up a while longer! :o

Ouch is right, I just looked at Cruiser Outfitters and looks like it would cost around 2 grand for just the parts. . . Might have to sell some other toys first.

Uncle Ben
01-17-2008, 01:38 PM
Ouch is right, I just looked at Cruiser Outfitters and looks like it would cost around 2 grand for just the parts. . . Might have to sell some other toys first.

Too bad Timm bought the front axle WITH ARB and the locked FF from me for so cheap! :rolleyes: :lmao:

J Kimmel
01-17-2008, 04:52 PM
UB: Jkimmel wrecked a detroit locker when something broke. Here the theory: The auto-lockers all have some backlash. This is enough room to let things unwind a little more than an ARB or E-locker when something breaks. The extra momentum is what breaks the detroits when the ARB lives on. I have had line/air supply problems only so far. All easily fixed on the trail. I haven't had to replace an ARB o-ring in 3+ years either. Again. the worst part for me is remembering to turn the things on. I didn't have this problem with the automatic lockers!

someone mentioned salvageable...

I bet it could've been, the side gear inside it was completely stripped. I heard you can buy replacement parts from Detroit. I did manage to break a rear at one point (remember that one :D) and that Detroit was fine.

The only thing I can add...I had detroits F&R for a long time, DD all that stuff. It was a 4Runner, so LWB. I rode in a friends Jeep TJ that had a detroit rear, (read-SWB) and the handling characteristics were much different, a lot more squirrely than I had experienced in mine.

I think the wheelbase makes a difference, I'd opt for ARB for a SWB, I've got an ARB front now and I've had issues a few times and each time was solved by pulling the solenoid apart and cleaning it thoroughly.

Cheeseman
01-18-2008, 08:31 PM
I always get on these things late. But I have ARB's in both my runner and 62. The main reason is that my wife drives both of these. Well she will again when the runner is finished in the not to distant future. She does not and will not understand anything other than an open diff on the street. Yes I know I should take her license away and that would fix things. But you, ... well,.... that ain't gonna happen. Thing is when an ARB is engaged it is basically a spooled differential at that point. So you learn to live with it. Check the seals. Keep clean air. Breath the axle and life isn't too bad. I wheel with the rear in all the time and use the front when I need it. But as has been said, don't try and steer. Nice to have the choice in the front when you need it.
________
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(`._.[xtr3m3]._.)
01-18-2008, 09:06 PM
I am in the same boat as you Martin. ARB and Orion would be sweet, but I can replace quite a few clutches for a whole lot less $, and usually get to the same spot.

Will the Orion fit in my 79 FJ40 without having to worry about the placement of the gas tank?