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View Full Version : Good news bad news... winch issue.


Rezarf
01-19-2008, 02:09 PM
Well, good news is, I got my bumper installed :p:

Bad news is, my winch spooled for about 2 seconds then quit. :mad: If I use the remote I can hear the seloniods click loudly when I engage it in or out with the remote.

Ahhhhh! How do i start to figure out what went wrong. FWIW, in my haste I wired the power and ground backwards last night when wiring everything back up... NOT GOOD :doh:

Any help is much appreciated... :thumb:

Uncle Ben
01-19-2008, 02:33 PM
Well, good news is, I got my bumper installed :p:

Bad news is, my winch spooled for about 2 seconds then quit. :mad: If I use the remote I can hear the seloniods click loudly when I engage it in or out with the remote.

Ahhhhh! How do i start to figure out what went wrong. FWIW, in my haste I wired the power and ground backwards last night when wiring everything back up... NOT GOOD :doh:

Any help is much appreciated... :thumb:


The good thing is winches are just a DC circuit which means wiring it backwards simply would make it run backwards! This is of course true UNLESS your winch controls are solid state (i). Most solid state circuits are diode protected so wiring them backwards would just make them do nothing. My guess is you have a ground issue ar somehow you have a relay or relay terminal issue.

Romer
01-19-2008, 02:43 PM
The winch I had on my 40 had a problem that ended up being a poor ground. The ground lug from the battery to the frame also was poor. With a poor ground there is extra current and maybe the protection circuit is shutting it off.

I ended up removing the ground at the frame and using a die grinder to clean to bare metal and reattaching.

corsair23
01-19-2008, 07:25 PM
Bad solenoid? IIRC someone mentioned that on the snow run when we were trouble shooting my winch problem. Except I wasn't getting any clicking so I'm pretty sure we ruled the solenoids out :(

I've got a good solenoid I traded PatrolMan for that I plan to use to troubleshoot my winch. You're more than welcome to borrow it to see if that is the problem :)

FWIW I shot Warn's tech support an email and they figure my problem is either my remote or the plug on my control box. Might be worth a shot to shoot them an email. It took a few days to get a response from them.

PatrolMan
01-19-2008, 09:22 PM
I believe that the solenoids in the 8274 are different than what I traded. I have an 8274. One important thing to note is that the solenoid box grounds through the motor. The box has to have a good contact to the side of the motor or not enough current can flow. Some guys actually go as far as to run a ground jumper from the box to the motor case. Just something to check.

Rezarf
01-19-2008, 11:53 PM
Can you help me identify the "box"?

Uncle Ben
01-19-2008, 11:57 PM
Can you help me identify the "box"?

Well, it is ....well...it is a....

http://tecfa.unige.ch/guides/vrml/vrml97/spec/Images/box.gif

corsair23
01-20-2008, 02:59 AM
Can you help me identify the "box"?

Not to show UB up or anything because his drawing was pretty darn good...:lmao:

FWIW my XD9000 when it was on my 40 had the control box grounded to the motor but the box was also somewhat remotely located from the winch...

Also, if you don't have these here is the manual and parts list for a M8274-50:

Manual (http://www.warn.com/truck/winches/src/images/59/39918A0.pdf)

Parts list (http://www.warn.com/truck/ReplacementParts/Self-RecoveryRPL/srrpl81-82.pdf) (unless your winch is real old then it might be different)

.

Rezarf
01-20-2008, 12:31 PM
Alright smarty pants... how do you ground the plastic box? I am assuming there is a way to ground the control board with all the seloniods inside, I have a ground wire directly from the case to the battery, how would I jump the case to "the box"

UB you kill me! :lmao:

Uncle Ben
01-20-2008, 12:51 PM
Alright smarty pants... how do you ground the plastic box? I am assuming there is a way to ground the control board with all the seloniods inside, I have a ground wire directly from the case to the battery, how would I jump the case to "the box"

UB you kill me! :lmao:

The solonoids are most likely mounted to a metal plate. That need to be grounded to the winch metal body. I doubt that ground is your problem! Make sure the ground cable from the motor or body has a clean connection at each end! Try looking at the schematic and determine what leads are what on the winch motor. Grab your jumper cables and first see if the winch runs with direct 12V jumped to it....then keep working backwards untill you find where the currant is insufficient! If you hear a "click" that tells you the solonoids are activating....now just find out where the high voltage stop!

Rezarf
01-20-2008, 10:22 PM
Sorry but should I ground the plate that the selonioids attach to? Or each selonoid?

I gotta still check the grounds too.

I had a big day watchin' football. :D

Romer
01-20-2008, 10:41 PM
The winch mounting bolts should have a good ground, you can verify this using a voltmeter with the ohm measurement. Meausre the battery neg terminal to chassis and verify a good ground.

rover67
01-21-2008, 08:01 PM
hey drew,

you might want to run down to lowes, get some plexi glass and cut disks to fit over the new hellas. i have run those stuck on there with a little velcro (4 small velcro 1/2" disks at the edges) to keep them on and it has kept them from breaking.. yours are mounted kinda low and i might worry about a rock killing one..

-Marco

Rezarf
01-21-2008, 08:37 PM
Thanks, got some of those fancy clear covers... we'll see how long they last.

Red lock-tight on the bolts :D

rover67
01-21-2008, 10:53 PM
look at the bright side... the winch may not work but the lights look cool as hell....

:)

Rezarf
05-09-2008, 05:23 PM
I am back on this winch thing. I am still getting nothing. My winch is wired straight from the battery to the winch (both pos and neg), and I am hearing a "click" when throwing the switch into forward or reverse.

I am going to check the little solenoid mounting plate for ground.

leiniesred
05-09-2008, 06:01 PM
There is more than 1 solenoid in that box on my 2 way winch. They both have to work for the cable to move. I dunno whatcha got in the box, but I bet it is a bad solenoid.

Rezarf
06-10-2008, 04:08 PM
Bummer, I jumped the wires with jumper cables and still can't get it to fire. I need to figure out how to get this thing working again. If anyone knows how I can isolate each solenoid to find out if I have a bad one, I would welcome the help :thumb:

Seldom Seen
06-10-2008, 05:13 PM
I don't have my manual in fort of me, so I'm going by memory.

Warn black boxes have a fail safe system, where power and ground are controlled by solenoids. Should one solenoid stick the other will disrupt the circuit shutting down the winch when you release the switch.

Look in the box and you should see 4 solenoids marked 1, 2, 3 & 4. On the motor there should be 4 studs labeled F1, F2, A & GND.

(Going by memory here) When winching in solenoid 1 & 4 close and current flows form the Pos cable thru "1" to "F1", thru the field, than back to the box from "F2" to "4", back to the motor via "A" thru the armature to ground.

When winching out, polarity of the field is reversed when 2 & 3 close. Form "Pos" thru "2" to "F2" to field, back from "F1" to "3" then to "A" thru the armature to "Gnd" (clear as mud?:confused::confused:)

The control switch is a DPDT center off type switch. When winching in or out it not only energizes the solenoids but also makes or breaks the ground for the solenoids (another fail safe).

Hope this helps.

*edit* Neither the solenoids nor the metal mounting plate need to be grounded. Grounding of the solenoids is done thru the control switch.

*edit2* Just looked up the wiring diagram on Warn's site for your model. Solenoids 1 & 4 close while 2 &3 are open for in and visa-versa for out. edited text to avoid confusion.

Seldom Seen
06-11-2008, 01:19 AM
OK I'm home and have the manual.

When you open the box the 1st thing you'll notice is the 4 solenoids. They are ganged together by copper bars in a square, with the 4 wires (Pos, F1, F2 & A) connected to it's respective lug on the solenoid (see above).

The low amp or control side of the system is quite simple. There is a white (~16ga) wire connected to the same lug as the Pos (red batt cable) this is where the control picks up power. White goes to the female plug. You'll see a green wire connecting solinoids 1 & 3 and a black connecting 2 & 4. Both the black & Green go to the plug. This is the in and out control. The switch connects the White to either Black or green to energize the solenoids and make the winch spool in or out.

There should be a Brown wire that daisy chains all the solenoids together and than goes to the plug. The Brown is solenoid "ground". Brown goes to the gnd side of the control switch. The switch is wired so that it's either on or off. (center is off and in OR out is on) Warn does this as part of their safety system in case of a switch failure.

NOW HERE IS THE TRICKY PART the gnd side of the switch connects the brown wire to a RED wire. The red wire runs back thru the plug and is connected to a chassis GROUND.

You read that right. THE RED 16ga WIRE FROM THE PLUG GOES TO A GROUND!!!

Rezarf
06-11-2008, 03:12 PM
Sweet Brian-

I will take a pic of what I have and maybe we can go from there? All seems well, but I must be missing something and this is great detail. THANKS!

Rezarf
04-11-2009, 08:36 PM
Nearly a year later... I have to get this thing moving. I am going to pull it soon, gotta' get it running before the season starts.

Drew

Air Randy
04-11-2009, 09:23 PM
Bring this thing down to my place and we'll get it figured out. I have an 8274 we can compare against and I'm pretty good at trouble shooting electrical circuits. Or I can grab my ohm meter and come up to your place.

corsair23
04-12-2009, 12:41 AM
Bring this thing down to my place and we'll get it figured out. I have an 8274 we can compare against and I'm pretty good at trouble shooting electrical circuits. Or I can grab my ohm meter and come up to your place.


Hey Drew...stop by and grab my winch on your way down :D - Year + later on mine and it still doesn't work right :rolleyes: (not that I've done much to try and fix it).

Rezarf
04-13-2009, 11:19 AM
Bring this thing down to my place and we'll get it figured out. I have an 8274 we can compare against and I'm pretty good at trouble shooting electrical circuits. Or I can grab my ohm meter and come up to your place.

Wow, thanks for the offer! I have done lots of research and I feel like I can get after it now. I may end up replacing all teh solenoids if one is bad... I imagine after 35 years they may need some fresh ones in there to perform well. Nothing like counting on your winch as your last ditch recovery tool and having it fail on you, and I plan on lots of solo wheelin' this summer.

However, if I can't get it to work, I might come down bud, thanks agian! :thumb:

Rezarf
04-13-2009, 11:20 AM
Hey Drew...stop by and grab my winch on your way down :D - Year + later on mine and it still doesn't work right :rolleyes: (not that I've done much to try and fix it).

Jeff-

What kind do you have, I'd be happy to look at it for you and chop parts off yours that mine needs ;)

Drew

corsair23
04-13-2009, 01:28 PM
Jeff-

What kind do you have, I'd be happy to look at it for you and chop parts off yours that mine needs ;)

Drew

:lmao:

Rezarf
04-13-2009, 02:33 PM
Seriously, what kind do have and whats wrong with it?

Drew

corsair23
04-13-2009, 05:39 PM
Seriously, what kind do have and whats wrong with it?

XD9000 and the problem is when you run it, it won't stop :eek:. Doesn't matter what you do with the control. If you push the switch to let line out, it starts reeling it in (yes, in) and won't turn off. If you push the switch to pull line in, it starts reeling it in and won't turn off. The only way to get it to shut off is to remove power by disconnecting it from the battery.

Warn's tech support said it was probably the controller. $60 and a new controller later it does the same thing. I need to pull the control box apart and see what I can figure out. Could be a solenoid I guess...I've wondered also if something didn't happy to the battery (I use the lugs on the front of the battery for the winch) but I'm not sure what could have happened that would cause other noticeable issues with the battery.

Based on my experience I plan to add a cutoff switch to the winch so I can turn the winch on and off without needing to remove a cable from the battery.

Rezarf
04-15-2009, 12:00 AM
So I pulled the cover off the control box today, I had just a few minutes with the remote and a multi-meter.

There are obviously 4 soleniods. They are arranged like this, I will call them:

1 2
3 4

Here is what I know:

* I have good power to the winch 13v
* I have less than one ohm of resistance on each solenoid when activated. (each of them opened, in either the in or out direction, 1&4 would give the same reading, as 2&3 would give the same reading (full power 12.X volts) if the remote was in the opposite direction). I took these readings across the large terminals on each solenoid.
* I have good ground continuity to the chasis and the winch housing.
* I still just get a click and no movement when the remote is either in the IN or OUT position.
* When the solenoids are bypassed and the motor is jumped directly to the battery, the motor spins freely and strong.

What gives? :confused: Would a pic help?:hill:

Thanks!:thumb:

Air Randy
04-15-2009, 08:37 AM
Does your ground wire to the winch attach to the rear casing bolt of the electric winch motor? I bought a used 8274 and this is where the cable was attached. I tested it and it worked fine. When I installed the winch I thought I would attach that cable to a better ground location. When I did, all I would get is a click and no motor movement. Once I moved it back to this same location, it has worked great ever since.

Rezarf
04-15-2009, 10:39 AM
No, mine is bolted to the winch housing. Through one of the bolts that holds to upper and lower half together. I am not sure if there is a ground lug or not on the motor housing but I would assume there could be.

Drew

Rezarf
10-12-2011, 10:32 PM
Okay, so an upcoming trip to the White Rim has gotten me off my butt to fix a few things that I have been putting off for far too long. One is diagnosing my winch.

In this pic below, how would test each soleniod?

I have read that if you put 12v onto the "s" terminal then ground the body you will hear the click of a properly working soleniod. My question is which one of the posts to apply 12v to and where I should ground the thing?

I've added A B C and D to the circled posts for clarity of any advice.

Thanks!

Uncle Ben
10-12-2011, 11:03 PM
I would start by cleaning some solenoid terminals! I'm guessing your ground wire looks about the same.

Rezarf
10-13-2011, 01:50 PM
Pulled that pic off the web, mine is clean and clear.

wesintl
10-13-2011, 01:53 PM
ya aint going to need a winch on white rim that's fo suh but that doesn't help ya fix it.

DaveInDenver
10-13-2011, 02:45 PM
Okay, so an upcoming trip to the White Rim has gotten me off my butt to fix a few things that I have been putting off for far too long. One is diagnosing my winch.

In this pic below, how would test each soleniod?

I have read that if you put 12v onto the "s" terminal then ground the body you will hear the click of a properly working soleniod. My question is which one of the posts to apply 12v to and where I should ground the thing?

I've added A B C and D to the circled posts for clarity of any advice.

Thanks!
The photo you show might be a plain old starter solenoid if it says 'S'. The other terminal might be 'I', which would have been used to bypass the ballast resistor on your ignition when used as an actual starter solenoid. If that's the case then you are correct, 12V on 'S' (which is probably C in your photo) will engage the solenoid with the body (the mounting tabs) grounded.

It's possible that the second terminal is the other side of the coil on your actual solenoid. In that case, 12V on B & C engages the solenoid to connect A to D. The solenoids like in M8000 control boxes are built this way, two terminals for the coil and the body isolated, but they were not made to be starter solenoids so they don't have the bypass or indicator terminal (e.g. the 'I' terminal). This is easy to verify with an ohm-meter.

TIMZTOY
10-13-2011, 10:10 PM
I'd start with the basics. ohm the ground wire by its self from tip to tip unhooked just the wire, then hook the chassie side, and ohm from cable tip-battery ground. not through the sylnoids. then ohm the hot.. then check the fuse.. lol ton's of ppl including myself forget to check the fuse, and relay.. when thats was the problem the whole time. not saying it is, just saying "when lost, start from the begening/simple stuff. before jumping head deep into a problem that might not be there" i would also ohm the motor its self un-hooked from the circut (you'll need to look up spec's).

then once you know the basics are good theres only like 2 more place to look, the rest of the wiring, and the sylnoids.

sorry if this sounds stupid and a " I already knew that" post but its so easy to overlook the simple

Rezarf
10-13-2011, 11:19 PM
I'd start with the basics. ohm the ground wire by its self from tip to tip unhooked just the wire, then hook the chassie side, and ohm from cable tip-battery ground. not through the sylnoids. then ohm the hot.. then check the fuse.. lol ton's of ppl including myself forget to check the fuse, and relay.. when thats was the problem the whole time. not saying it is, just saying "when lost, start from the begening/simple stuff. before jumping head deep into a problem that might not be there" i would also ohm the motor its self un-hooked from the circut (you'll need to look up spec's).

then once you know the basics are good theres only like 2 more place to look, the rest of the wiring, and the sylnoids.

sorry if this sounds stupid and a " I already knew that" post but its so easy to overlook the simple

Thanks Tim, I have done the above and determined the issue is in the soleniods... just trying to trouble shoot them to see which ones need replacing.

Drew

Rezarf
10-13-2011, 11:24 PM
ya aint going to need a winch on white rim that's fo suh but that doesn't help ya fix it.

Yeah but on this trip I am the big dog with a few mini-trucks so I better try to eliminate my poser non-working winch while I can and save some face if it were to be needed.

:thumb:

60wag
10-14-2011, 08:08 AM
If one of the solenoids is failing, I wonder how healthy the rest of them are. It might be worth replacing the entire solenoid pack with either a new one or a used one that works. Do a bit of web searching and you might find the whole package at a decent price. I doubt the individual solenoids ever go on sale.

Rezarf
03-10-2012, 09:14 PM
Finally had a few hours to get after my winch and finally fixed it!

It wasn't a solenoid, but one of the main motor lugs was loose. There is a stud that the 2 gauge wire is bolted to on the motor housing that was/is loose. There are three total, one farthest from the gear housing (im assuming ground)and two more (I'm assuming positive directions) near the gear housing. This lug spins in the housing... The others didn't seem to, thoughts?

Either way, my winch is ALIVE!!!:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

farnhamstj
03-10-2012, 09:44 PM
Well......that only took 3.5 years.

Congrats. :p::thumb:

Rezarf
03-11-2012, 10:30 AM
Well......that only took 3.5 years.

Congrats. :p::thumb:

Welcome to my life bro! :D :lmao:

I knew I would really dig into once I needed it... but I was trying to avoid fixing it on the trail while my 40 sank deeper and deeper into the mud! I did learn how to bypass the solenoids to get it to spool with jumper cables... good enough right! :hill: I can see recovering the 40 while grabbing the winch with cables.

subzali
03-11-2012, 11:37 AM
So did you tighten the lug that was loose?

Uncle Ben
03-11-2012, 12:10 PM
So did you tighten the lug that was loose?

Matt, don't rush him! :lmao::lmao::p:

Rezarf
03-11-2012, 02:07 PM
Ill try to get to it before Dax enters high school!

Yeah I tightened it!

:)

corsair23
03-12-2012, 03:15 PM
DANG Drew!

You're starting to make me look fast :hill: - keep it up :lmao:

P.S. I just installed the MAF housing Sleeves last weekend that I've had since CM2010 :)