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Hulk
01-21-2008, 02:29 AM
Everything I have read makes me think that I will soon be switching to synthetic winch line.

The primary benefits that I see are:
1. Lighter weight
2. Far safer in case of breakage.

The drawbacks seem to be:
1. UV degradation
2. Issues with getting it dirty, dragging it over rocks.

Hulk
01-21-2008, 02:33 AM
According to Warn, my M12000 winch came with 125 feet of 3/8 wire cable. Should I be using the same thickness and length in synthetic rope?

Vendors?

Here's Winchline.com (http://winchline.com/mcart/index.cgi?ID=227548973&PID=IT138&code=13). $283. Yikes!

Here's AmsteelBlue.com (http://www.amsteelblue.com/item.cfm?itemid=44869). $299 including a new hook.

Willys Off-Road Supply Co (http://www.willysoffroadsupply.com/OK-AB038B/Truck_SUV_Accessories_Winches_Winch_Rope_Accessories_Amsteel_Blue_Winch_Rope_38_in_x_125_ft_4x4_US_Made_now_in_Olive_Drab.html). $258 in Olive Drab.

Red_Chili
01-21-2008, 08:24 AM
Match the weight ratings of the line to cable. IIRC, should be the same diameter, but it is weight ratings that matter.

Jacket
01-21-2008, 09:16 AM
I got mine from Winchline (Viking off road), mostly because they gave me a free hat :D. Its Amsteel blue line - and shipping was quick.

One thing to consider with the length. If most of your pulls are way under 125', then you could get a shorter rope (say 80') to maximize the strength of the winch. And then carry an extra 50' extension if you think you might need it for really long pulls. Advantages: less weight on the front end of the truck, more pulling strength on the "average" pull, and the ability (if needed) to go with a bigger diameter rope spooled on your winch.

One other thing - are you going to upgrade your fairlead? Steel rollers, especially those already used with steel line, can damage the synth rope. Better to get a hawse fairlead, or some delrin rollers to pair with your new line.

J Kimmel
01-21-2008, 09:42 AM
I get mine from Rockstomper, I put on the same length of cable that came off, and I generally replace it every few years to be safe, but no breaks yet. I have had some fairly hard pulls and all is good. I will never use cable again, much harder to use than rope:)

nakman
01-21-2008, 09:43 AM
So for $300 I can make my truck 37.5 pounds lighter? Math based on this post.. http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showpost.php?p=57598&postcount=28

I don't like how synthetic coils up when it's laying on the ground (just like a rope), it's easy for it to get tied into knots, grab sticks, etc. I also don't like how it feels like parts of it are being shaved off by my glove, as I provide some resistance to it when recoiling. I'm sticking with the steel cable until I see the need to replace it, then we'll see.. for now I can think of much better places to spend $300.

Romer
01-21-2008, 09:45 AM
S I'm sticking with the steel cable until I see the need to replace it, then we'll see.. for now I can think of much better places to spend $300.

X2

leiniesred
01-21-2008, 10:09 AM
Scott @ rockstomper sold my wife the rope for my winch too. (whadda super lady, eh?) It is the way to go for sure.

No kinks, frays, gloves, less weight on the bumper in line and in the aluminum fairlead instead of the rollers which also hurt my approach angle. Less mass when it breaks.

I'll never buy steel cable again.

$300?
Scott's prices are a lot more reasonable. 100' of 5/16 for my M8000 is $165.

sleeoffroad
01-21-2008, 10:22 AM
FYI, now available, offset fairleads.
http://www.sleeoffroad.com/products/images/recovery/sof1113-450.jpg
http://www.sleeoffroad.com/products/products_recovery_winches.htm

RockRunner
01-21-2008, 10:30 AM
FYI, now available, offset fairleads.
http://www.sleeoffroad.com/products/images/recovery/sof1113-450.jpg
http://www.sleeoffroad.com/products/products_recovery_winches.htm


Those are pretty nice :bowdown:, I may have to stop by your place sometime.

Hulk
01-21-2008, 11:10 AM
Scott @ rockstomper sold me my line too. It is the way to go for sure.

No kinks, frays, gloves, less weight on the bumper in line and in the aluminum fairlead instead of the rollers which also hurt my approach angle. Less mass when it breaks.

I'll never buy steel cable again.

$300?
Scott's prices are a lot more reasonable. 100' of 5/16 for my M8000 is $165.

Looks like his prices are about the same as everywhere for the 3/8":
3/8" x 125', 20,400lb winch rope, $274
http://www.rockstomper.com/catalog/recovery/ropes.htm

powderpig
01-21-2008, 11:24 AM
I thought I saw some interest in a different thread to maybe buy bulk and then make some lines. Did someone have a lead on bulk line and hardware? This way maybe we could make our own winch line, then winch extensions, and possiable spotter lines. It might be a savings, as well as a learning lesson for all of us. a
The biggest reason I would get the synthetic line is, Safety. It store much less energy in the line if something does go wrong. (It can hurt you some, but I do not think it will kill you) Secondary reasons for me are it is easier to spool in after (no more real dressing the spool), no burrs that can hurt you, floats in water, ease of use when working with it. I like working with it.
Any how anything will work if it is maintained and you treat it with respect. Steel will last a good long time.

Red_Chili
01-21-2008, 11:30 AM
+1 on safety. When synth rope breaks, it simply falls to the ground. When steel snaps it too falls to the ground, after removing your head, and flying through your windshield. If a strand breaks, it can skewer your hand even through a glove. Plus, it flatspots, kinks, etc. and those places become more likely to break. Synth rope is field repairable with a screwdriver or other poking tool, and the results are actually good as new.

Oh yeah, and it happens to be lighter.

Those are the reasons I run it.

Rezarf
01-21-2008, 11:40 AM
300 bucks YIKES! :eek: I see rope at home depot all the time for like 8 bucks? How different can it be? :hill:

RockRunner
01-21-2008, 11:47 AM
300 bucks YIKES! :eek: I see rope at home depot all the time for like 8 bucks? How different can it be? :hill:


Check on Slee's website, some of the better prices out there. You can find some better online but you need to make sure you know what you are buying. There are three levels of line out there, they are designated by color. I will try and find the page that explains it and post it here.

Hulk
01-21-2008, 12:59 PM
FYI, now available, offset fairleads.

Looks like another great product!
Question: how much to customize it with different text?

corsair23
01-21-2008, 01:16 PM
Do you take trade ins on the non-offset style :D

I need me one of these :thumb:

FYI, now available, offset fairleads.
http://www.sleeoffroad.com/products/images/recovery/sof1113-450.jpg
http://www.sleeoffroad.com/products/products_recovery_winches.htm

RockRunner
01-21-2008, 01:17 PM
I bet they would need at least 20 orders to make it pay off. I would be up for one if it is the same price as the original.

Cristo what do you think??? Maybe a little "Slee Off Road" on the top???

corsair23
01-21-2008, 01:27 PM
Everything I have read makes me think that I will soon be switching to synthetic winch line.

The primary benefits that I see are:
1. Lighter weight
2. Far safer in case of breakage.

The drawbacks seem to be:
1. UV degradation
2. Issues with getting it dirty, dragging it over rocks.


Matt,

FWIW I got my rope from Rock Stomper and went with what Warn recommended which was to replace the cable with the same size and length of rope. I bought an extra 10' section of the rope guard (to both protect the rope and also for additional UV protection when the rope is just sitting their spooled up on the winch 364 days out of the year :hill:. I also bought a 50' (maybe 75') extension line. The one thing I did not get was a new hook (reused what I had).

It is expensive but safety was my #1 concern. I know snapping a steel cable is probably pretty rare (even bought one of those ARB winch line deals to put over the steel cable) but I had to replace the old cable anyway so it made my choice easier. I still have steel cable on my 40 right now with no plans to replace it. If I start wheeling the 40 more than I will probably replace it. As of right now the winch on the 40 is just for looks :rolleyes:

Crawler#976
01-21-2008, 02:09 PM
My descision to use the Viking Combo 5/16" synth line was based primarily on the weight savings.

The Warn M8000 now weighs 50 Lbs vs 80 Lbs, and that pretty much offset the difference in weight between the stock bumper and a TJM T-17. I moved the control box into the engine compartment so it's also off the front bumper. The total front end weight increased by 160 Lbs - that includes the second battery, isolator, 2 Gage cables, bumper shell, and winch. Of that total the second battery and Isolator are behind the front tires.

So far I've only used the winch 5 times since X-Mas - once for an intentional stuck to test it, and 4 times for dead and down pines. It also nice to have the accesories all running of a 950 CCA deep cycle, and to have dual bat's available for trail welding if required.

Mark

Hulk
01-21-2008, 02:13 PM
I bet they would need at least 20 orders to make it pay off. I would be up for one if it is the same price as the original.

Cristo what do you think??? Maybe a little "Slee Off Road" on the top???

I don't mind rockin' a company logo on my truck. I'd just like it to be a little more subtle. Maybe like this:

sleeoffroad
01-21-2008, 02:13 PM
Looks like another great product!
Question: how much to customize it with different text?

It can be done, but there will be a minimum qty order and the pricing would still be the same, unless the club bought the whole lot and then resell them. Then we can work on a discount.

RockRunner
01-21-2008, 02:16 PM
It can be done, but there will be a minimum qty order and the pricing would still be the same, unless the club bought the whole lot and then resell them. Then we can work on a discount.

What is the minimum amount we need to order to keep the price the same?

Hulk
01-21-2008, 02:25 PM
It can be done, but there will be a minimum qty order and the pricing would still be the same, unless the club bought the whole lot and then resell them. Then we can work on a discount.

Well, I'd be in for one. :)

sleeoffroad
01-21-2008, 02:45 PM
I don't mind rockin' a company logo on my truck. I'd just like it to be a little more subtle. Maybe like this:

Man, that logo would nearly be invisible on a big old fat 80. Kinda like a pimple on a elephants ass. :D

corsair23
01-21-2008, 03:46 PM
Well, I'd be in for one. :)

x2 - Would be cool to have a Rising Sun one although as everyone can tell I don't mind advertising for some of the vendors either :hill:

Man, that logo would nearly be invisible on a big old fat 80. Kinda like a pimple on a elephants ass. :D

Just give Matt one of your windshield banner dealyos and call it good :thumb: :D

Evrgrnmtnman
03-04-2008, 10:32 PM
Inchworm has a sale on their Amsteel Blue Synthentic Line
3/8in.X 125ft. for $250.00 and others on sale too.
http://www.inchwormgear.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=79

RockRunner
03-05-2008, 12:11 PM
Are we still looking at a group buy or ??? I am in for a group buy if the stuff is pretty good and will work with what I have.

Red_Chili
03-05-2008, 12:24 PM
It is pretty dang good, and it will work with what you have.

RockRunner
03-05-2008, 12:44 PM
Are you taling about the stuff from Inchworm? I know it is good but I don't think we were talking about this as a group buy were we??

Rzeppa
03-05-2008, 06:40 PM
I got my 165 feet of 3/8 UHMW PE for my 8274 from Offroadsolutions, who in turn got it from Rockstomper, but sold it to me for the same ~$400 that Rockstomper would have sold it to me. I wanted to support a Rising Sun supporter, who hosted our WBPP.

In addition to the advantages that Matt listed, it is MUCH easier to handle and spool back in compared to stiff GAC. Not to mention, it doesn't get the little pokie things that poke through your gloves and make you bleed. I haven't had near the damage from rocks and bends that I used to have with GAC.

This is a side-by-side, A-B comparison, my personal experience on the same exact winch, on the same rig. Sure, winching experiences vary from one episode to another, but I'll never go back to GAC.

In my experience, there is NO UV degradation (had it for several years now), and there no disadvantages and only advantages. Note the size and length above. That's right, 165 feet at 3/8". Why do you think shipyards have been using this stuff for so many years instead of GAC?

Hulk
04-21-2008, 01:49 PM
Hey all you guys with synthetic winch line! Which eye options did you go with?

See here (http://www.winchline.com/vtl_eye_options.htm) for details.

Option One: Safety Thimble
http://www.winchline.com/pics/wl-wst-500.jpg

Option Two: Tube Thimble Eye
http://www.winchline.com/pics/wl-cp_nh-500.jpg

Option Three: Stainless Steel Thimble Eye
http://www.winchline.com/pics/wl-se_nh-500.jpg

Hulk
04-21-2008, 02:10 PM
Cheapest source out there?
http://stores.ebay.com/CustomSplice

Hmmm....

Red_Chili
04-21-2008, 02:18 PM
It is cheaper than Rockstomper even... huh.
I used the simple thimble.

corsair23
04-21-2008, 02:40 PM
Mine looks like option #3 Matt and I reused my existing hook...

If $$ were no option I might have done option #1. On a side note, I'd buy an extra length of that line saver stuff (normally black) at the same time. I found that one sleeve of it would only partially cover the line while it was sitting on the drum, leaving the rest unprotected from the weather (sun). I ordered another 10' section of it and the shipping was dang near as much as the sleeve. But, with two sleeves and reeled in just right all of the winch line will be protected with the exception of the part at the thimble.

Jacket
04-21-2008, 06:51 PM
Tube thimble eye for me (option #2) - with the purty yellow hook.

Convert
04-21-2008, 07:06 PM
Tube thimble eye for me (option #2) - with the purty yellow hook.

X2 The tube thimble eye is very beefy

RockRunner
04-21-2008, 10:40 PM
I just got mine from Rockstomper, $165 for 110'. I added an extra safety sheet for good measure, saw several times last year where it was needed. Figured it was cheap insurance for $15, besides when one looks really bad I can always remove it and move the second one up.

I would love to use Option one but alas $$ is a rare commodity in my checkbook so option three it was. Re-used the old hook, but may get a pretty yellow one.

Hulk
05-19-2008, 04:16 PM
Question for you guys who know about Warn winches. The part that concerns me is in blue:
From Winchline.com:
Viking Fire Line© is made from Samson's Tec-12 (Technora Aramid Fiber) with Critical temperature of 450º F and melting or char point at 900º F. This winchline is the choice for winches that have internal brakes. Most Warn, Ramsey, older Superwinches and others have internal brakes. When these winches are powered out, the friction of the brake against the drum heats up the drum quickly. The Viking Fire Line© reduces the chance to ruin the synthetic winchline because of its resistance to heat.

The Viking Combo Line© is the perfect solution for heat resistance and choice of colors. The Viking Combo Line© is made from the Fire Line which covers the first 20' of the winchline. This provides heat absorbing insulation for the Trail Line that makes up the remainder of the winchline. The red Fire Line also serves as a safety indicator. When it becomes visible, it means you are on the last layer of line on the drum, and it's time to stop. All synthetic winchlines should never have fewer than 8 wraps on the drum compared to 5 for steel cable.

Should I be concerned about this? I have a Warn M12000 winch. I was planning on purchasing 125' of 3/8" winchrope. The Warn web page for the M12000 (http://warn.com/truck/winches/src/M1200.shtml) says it has a "Automatic Direct Drive Cone brake" which doesn't tell me whether it is inside the drum.

Uncle Ben
05-19-2008, 04:23 PM
Question for you guys who know about Warn winches. The part that concerns me is in blue:
From Winchline.com:
Viking Fire Line© is made from Samson's Tec-12 (Technora Aramid Fiber) with Critical temperature of 450º F and melting or char point at 900º F. This winchline is the choice for winches that have internal brakes. Most Warn, Ramsey, older Superwinches and others have internal brakes. When these winches are powered out, the friction of the brake against the drum heats up the drum quickly. The Viking Fire Line© reduces the chance to ruin the synthetic winchline because of its resistance to heat.

The Viking Combo Line© is the perfect solution for heat resistance and choice of colors. The Viking Combo Line© is made from the Fire Line which covers the first 20' of the winchline. This provides heat absorbing insulation for the Trail Line that makes up the remainder of the winchline. The red Fire Line also serves as a safety indicator. When it becomes visible, it means you are on the last layer of line on the drum, and it's time to stop. All synthetic winchlines should never have fewer than 8 wraps on the drum compared to 5 for steel cable.

Should I be concerned about this? I have a Warn M12000 winch. I was planning on purchasing 125' of 3/8" winchrope. The Warn web page for the M12000 (http://warn.com/truck/winches/src/M1200.shtml) says it has a "Automatic Direct Drive Cone brake" which doesn't tell me whether it is inside the drum.


Guess the question is....how much do you use the power-out function of your winch? The brakes drag on an eccentric so power-in they float mostly but power-out can get then very toasty very fast!

corsair23
05-19-2008, 04:42 PM
Guess the question is....how much do you use the power-out function of your winch? The brakes drag on an eccentric so power-in they float mostly but power-out can get then very toasty very fast!

x2 - 99% of the time you'll be free spooling the rope out in to order to pull yourself in. Now, if you plan to spend a lot of time lowering yourself down an obstacle or someone else down an obstacle (Waterfall, Poison Spider at CM07 for instance) then I would be worried about the heat or plan to take a very long time letting the rope out :)

I wonder, could a person put a section or two of the chaff guard stuff on the beginning of the rope at the drum to protect against heat? Or would that interfere with the ropes ability to tighten down around the drum :confused:

Red_Chili
05-20-2008, 01:03 PM
I don't think it would insulate well.

rover67
05-20-2008, 05:00 PM
buy that trick insulation for hoses on race cars.

but then it might never grip on the drum.

Uncle Ben
05-21-2008, 12:37 AM
buy that trick insulation for hoses on race cars.

but then it might never grip on the drum.

Or just don't worry about it! Focus more on how to keep the suns UV rays off your line and worry less about melting the rope the one, two or maybe three times you'll use it in a year!

Hulk
06-11-2008, 03:24 PM
Ohhhh... :)

corsair23
06-11-2008, 03:30 PM
Ohhhh... :)

Run into any Comcast security guards lately? :lmao::bolt:

nakman
12-05-2009, 10:45 PM
x2 - 99% of the time you'll be free spooling the rope out in to order to pull yourself in. Now, if you plan to spend a lot of time lowering yourself down an obstacle or someone else down an obstacle (Waterfall, Poison Spider at CM07 for instance) then I would be worried about the heat or plan to take a very long time letting the rope out :)

I wonder, could a person put a section or two of the chaff guard stuff on the beginning of the rope at the drum to protect against heat? Or would that interfere with the ropes ability to tighten down around the drum :confused:


Jeff per the Amsteel Blue site that's exactly what you can do:

The winch line also includes a 10' chafe guard which can be used to protect the line from abrasion or as the first wrap on the winch drum to protect from winch drum overheating.

http://www.amsteelblue.com/cpage.cfm?cpid=445

DaveInDenver
12-05-2009, 10:49 PM
This may seem like a remote chance, but on the SNR Subzali's winch got a major work out working in reverse lowering OldDog40's truck down the toboggan run. I personally would have been a bit concerned with synthetic and drum heat. Heat is one thing that the synthetic materials will not like and the base layer sheath is an obvious band aid that I admit works for the majority of cases. But, well, I dunno.

On the other end, I like the floating abrasion guard, very functional in a climbing sorta way. I dig it. :-)

nakman
12-05-2009, 10:58 PM
This X-Line stuff is apparently rated to 490° F http://www.offroadonly.com/products/recovery/x-line/


edit: one more comment:

Heat and synthetic winch line
In researching, I get some somewhat conflicting opinions on the importance of addressing heat sensitivity and degradation of synth winch line. Some sources emphasize the usefulness of "fire line", or a heat resistant segment of rope (first link), around the first cable wrap around the drum. Elsewhere, the problem is down played and suggested to only be a problem on long payouts (2nd link). However, I've noticed heat buildup on hard pulls too.

Just wondering if there was some opinions out there as to which school of thought is the most realistic based on real world experience. Is it worth the extra dough for combo line?


Re: Heat and synthetic winch line

The main source of heat in a winch is from the drum going against the drum brake, IE winching out under power. Winches with an external drum brake (Warn 8274) don't have this issue. Their are a few heat resistant ropes on the market today, Technora, Vectran and Liquid Crystal Polymer (LCP), but each of these ropes have a downside which creates a problem when you try to make a full line out of them. Most of the heat resistant ropes have a hollow fiber, which creates a problem when you try to run these ropes through a snatch block or around a corner, the hollow fiber will fail more easily and therefor is not good to use. You will see some companies or individuals selling full lines made of heat resistant fiber, but I would never sell or run this because of the issues that heat resistant fibers have.

At Master-Pull we have a few solutions to the problems that Sk75 Dyneema fiber has when it gets hot. Our first solution, and the easiest to use, is a 10 ft nylon heat guard. This is meant to go on the first wrap of the drum to protect the line from the heat caused by going against the drum brake. You will see people using these 1 inch diameter sections of heat guard as a chafe or rock guard to protect the line when you winch over an abrasive surface, but they are meant to be used to protect the first wrap on the drum.

Another solution we have is our LCP line, this rope uses 20 feet of high heat resistant fiber (LCP) spliced onto 80 feet of regular Master-Pull winch rope. This allows you to run a regular Dyneema rope (that wont be damaged in a snatch block, and still have a high heat resistant end on it. This is a picture of the splice that connects the two:



The splice we use is a variation of how we splice eyes onto all of our lines, and will not come undone. As you can see it tapers down in both lines so that is will not be caught if it runs through your fairlead. The LCP rope is the yellow looking one, and the gray is our MP Basic Rope.

I have heard of some guys wrapping the drums of their winches with electrical tape to help alleviate some of the issues of melting the lines but I have never had good success with this practice.

In summary, wrapping the nylon heat guard around my drum has protected every line that I have used against the heat created from the drum. I have used AmSteel Blue, MP Superline and currently am running MP Superline XD. If anyone needs some of this heat guard for their lines please contact me, I will take care of you.

-Alex
__________________
www.MasterPull.com - Official Winch Line of W.E.Rock - Official Recovery Gear for the 2010 Griffin King of the Hammers
www.amsteelblue.com - Best prices on genuine Amsteel Blue and KERR ropes
98XJ on 35's.
http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?p=244673922

DaveInDenver
12-05-2009, 10:59 PM
This X-Line stuff is apparently rated to 490° F http://www.offroadonly.com/products/recovery/x-line/
Cool. Another thing I learned today that is awesome. What is not awesome, or well less awesome anyway, is my iTunes just went from THe New Pronographers' Electric Version to The Go-Go's Greatest Hits. I think Belinda Carlyle is as hot as the next 30-something, but come on, that is almost torture. I might actually prefer a Taser shot to listening to Head Over Heels.

DaveInDenver
12-05-2009, 11:04 PM
Alright fixed it...

I don't wanna be a pinhead no more. I just met a nurse that I could go for!

D U M B

Everyone's accusing me!

rover67
12-05-2009, 11:10 PM
I figured I'd add that I got my synthetic winchline from custom splice on ebay about a year ago and have been giving it a healthy workout since then. No power outs, but lots of near stall pulling. this is 5/16 on an xd9000i winch. I love the stuff. super easy to work with,

Has everybody converted over just about now?

nakman
12-05-2009, 11:15 PM
Has everybody converted over just about now?


I'm still a hold out on the 80, big heavy truck with big heavy cable. But I ordered some synthetic for the Taco tonight, went for the yellow hook http://www.amsteelblue.com/item.cfm?itemid=44772 :D

rover67
12-05-2009, 11:17 PM
Shweet!

DaveInDenver
12-05-2009, 11:17 PM
Has everybody converted over just about now?
I have nothing but synthetic rope now, but it's been years since you could buy hemp.

rover67
12-05-2009, 11:20 PM
what I like the most about it is it seems to stretch even less than the steel cable. no more waiting for the cable to load up then spring back during heavy pulls.

TIMZTOY
12-05-2009, 11:22 PM
another plus that i didnt see anyone list (i might have overlook)
synthitic line floats on water instead of sinking

corsair23
12-23-2009, 12:22 AM
3/8" vs 7/16" :confused:

Reading through this thread again for ideas...Existing wire rope is 7/16" @ 90' (seems short)

Replacement syn rope that should fit per one site says 3/8" or 7/16" @ 100' - or do I go smaller and longer and guess at what length would fit? I know why the existing wire rope is 7/16" thick (rating) but syn rope is stronger and has a better weight rating than wire so even thinner syn rope will be stronger than the wire rope...

This go around I think I'm going to go with the thimble and leave the hook off until needed :)

rover67
12-23-2009, 12:59 AM
Just stick with the 7/16th's and know you have an extra safety factor built in. That was my logic (but with the size rope for the 9000lb winch I have). get a saftey thimble, they look sweet. I'm getting one sooner or later.

Jacket
12-23-2009, 09:31 AM
I'd keep the length of spooled rope as short as reasonably possible (80-90') so that you maximize the strength of the winch. Then get an extra 50' of rope for long pulls.

nakman
12-23-2009, 09:39 AM
I'd keep the length of spooled rope as short as reasonably possible (80-90') so that you maximize the strength of the winch. Then get an extra 50' of rope for long pulls.

I think that's good advise. Also remember if you have 2 straps, which I suspect you do, that's another 60'. Plus whatever everyone else has...

Is this going on the 40 or the 80?

Rzeppa
12-23-2009, 05:17 PM
I run 165' of 3/8 on my 8274, works great!

wesintl
12-23-2009, 06:11 PM
I would go 3/8 and you could always increase the strength of the 3/8's to the 7/16 equivalent line by using the masterpull line. http://www.masterpull.com/cpage.cfm?cpid=197

i'd love to lighten up the front end but for how much I use my winches it's hard to throw down 400 bones.

Rzeppa
12-23-2009, 09:12 PM
I would go 3/8 and you could always increase the strength of the 3/8's to the 7/16 equivalent line by using the masterpull line. http://www.masterpull.com/cpage.cfm?cpid=197

i'd love to lighten up the front end but for how much I use my winches it's hard to throw down 400 bones.

I went synth when I had to replace my worn out GAC anyway. Not only lighter, but SO much easier to handle and re-spool.

corsair23
12-24-2009, 03:48 AM
I think that's good advise. Also remember if you have 2 straps, which I suspect you do, that's another 60'. Plus whatever everyone else has...

Is this going on the 40 or the 80?

Going on the 80 and will be attached to this :D

16281

I'm not so worried anymore about the pulling power of the winch :thumb:

I'm sure my decision will be based a lot on the :twocents: of the rope. I've got a rope extension already (50' or 75', can't remember) so maybe 90' of 7/16" rope will be plenty with straps and extension as needed. Heck, having just 15' would have been plenty on the GTR :hill:

powderpig
12-24-2009, 07:55 AM
On subzali's reverse winching, his drum is external so he would not need to worry that much on the heat thing. It is the winches with internal brakes that would need to worry on the drum heat.
On the 165 ft of winch line, wow that is a lot of line. Jeff how would you every get down to the real pulling power of the winch, with out spooling out a lot of feet of cable?
With that kind of length, you would only be on the middle to top 1/3 of the drum and only have about a 2-3k lb of pulling power. With pulling more cable and using a pulley, you may bet down to the bigger pulling power. But again the 40 is a light vehicle.

Hulk
12-25-2009, 11:46 PM
Going on the 80 and will be attached to this :D


Congrats, Jeff. That is a monster of a winch!

DaveInDenver
12-26-2009, 07:19 AM
With that kind of length, you would only be on the middle to top 1/3 of the drum and only have about a 2-3k lb of pulling power.
Rating by layer for 12V M15000:

15,000 lbf
13,890 lbf
11,520 lbf
9,840 lbf

RockRunner
12-26-2009, 01:51 PM
So Jeff does that mean you are ready to sell the old one? Or maybe trade???

That is one huge a$$ winch, you can pull yourself and the person behind you out.

powderpig
12-26-2009, 02:07 PM
Sorry Dave, I was refering to Jeff Zepp's 165' of cable on his winch, not Cosiars new 15 k winch. That info you posted shows the point real well. The more cable you have on the drum the less pulling power you have. the more stress you put on the winch the more Amps you pull as well.
Have fun with the monster, Corsiar.

Uncle Ben
12-26-2009, 03:19 PM
Having a big winch on my 80 is important to me! I value making nearly all pulls as a single line pull as double line pulls take forever and the distance needed is often in the snow so 50' or less just isn't acceptable to me. I'm running a 12.5k with 100' of 3/8" Amsteel Blue. Love the setup very much! I loaded 90' of 3/8" Amsteel Blue on the 40 also with the X-9. I have run syn line for many years now and will NEVER run steel line again! Besides the fact that my cable only weighs 6lbs vrs 90lbs the equivalent GAC, it is easier to work with and not having kinks or galvanized steel wire penetrations through my dirty gloves into my fingers or hand are worth every penny! Keep the sun off of it and it will last a long time! To repair or splice I carry a fid set but a roll of good black tape is all thats really needed in a pinch! Try that with GAC!

wesintl
12-26-2009, 03:31 PM
my cable only weighs 6lbs vrs 90lbs the equivalent GAC,

I think gac is something like .18 or .19 lb a ft (depending on size). so that would be ~25lb. where are you gettin 90 from?:confused:

Uncle Ben
12-26-2009, 03:50 PM
I think gac is something like .18 or .19 lb a ft (depending on size). so that would be ~25lb. where are you gettin 90 from?:confused:

Dirt and chunks of old flesh?

Here is weight and misc specs..... (http://www.trawlworks.com/wire.htm)

corsair23
12-27-2009, 12:31 AM
Congrats, Jeff. That is a monster of a winch!

Thanks...After looking into the M12K vs. M15K more closely before pulling the trigger I determined that the M12K and M15K are identical winches with the exception of the gearing. The M12K is 261:1 while the M15K is 315:1. Otherwise from what I can tell they have the same motor, same drum, same casing, weight the same (136lbs) etc.

The big difference will be that my lines speeds will be slower (no load max line speed of only 22.2'/min on the M15K vs. 30'/min on the M12K | 10K lbs pull line speed of 3.31'/min vs. 4.39'/min). However, interestingly enough (I suppose due to the gearing) the M15K's motor current draw is less when compared to the M12K once you start pulling. Pretty significant differences actually. For an 8K line pull the M12K draws 320 amps while the M15K only draws 285 amps. 10K line pull is 370 vs 335. 12K line pull is 440 vs. 385.

In the end though it came down to just finding a good deal...2 yr old winch, never actually used. The PO never even stretched out the cable.

corsair23
12-27-2009, 12:33 AM
So Jeff does that mean you are ready to sell the old one? Or maybe trade???

That is one huge a$$ winch, you can pull yourself and the person behind you out.

That is what it means Tom but you are 2nd in line...First person in line actually approached me last year IIRC about buying it so I'm giving him first dibs. If he passes I'll let you know. :thumb:

nakman
01-09-2010, 11:41 PM
Lip smackin' good! :D

treerootCO
01-10-2010, 09:49 AM
Went with the Suplerline XD synthetic for the Ptarmigan after talking to Ben and Joe about what to buy. The knot is a double half hitch. It looks like their military XD line is spliced but this version is not. As far as it being filed splice-able, all you would need to know is how to tie a half hitch. One of the biggest advantages is that this rope won't flatten out on the last few wraps on the drum making it easier to work with. The abrasion and UV protection are nice too. From what I have read on the boat forums, the knot = 35% less strength than a splice.

http://www.masterpull.com/cpage.cfm?cpid=478

16497

16498

5/16" @ 21,000lb breaking strength -

-The Superline XD synthetic winch line is manufactured with the most advanced technology in synthetic rope manufacturing today. The rope starts as a larger diameter line and is heated and stretched down to its final diameter, just like our regular Superline. This process gives the Superline XD an excellent breaking strength since it has the strength of a larger diameter line in a smaller diameter. The pre-stretching also gives the rope better abrasion resistance compared to normal Dyneema winch ropes.
-For even more abrasion resistance, the rope has a tightly braided cover along the whole length of the rope. This cover gives the inner Superline core excellent protection against abrasion, especially abrasion from dirt and sand. With coverless winch lines, dirt and sand can get lodged in between the strands of the rope and can cause fraying, which in some cases leads to a 20% loss in the rope's breaking strength. The Superline XD cover keeps dirt and sand out of the core and prevents this abrasion from happening. It also gives the inner core complete protection from UV rays. Ultimately this means that if used properly, the Superline XD will last much longer than a normal winch line, and you won't have to replace your line nearly as often.

Uncle Ben
01-10-2010, 09:58 AM
Nice! Now you just need some mechanical leverage to put the line in! ;)

treerootCO
01-10-2010, 10:07 AM
Nice! Now you just need some mechanical leverage to put the line in! ;)

Picked up a Warn 9.5XP. It is the biggest winch that will fit in the Short Bus bumber.

Uncle Ben
01-10-2010, 10:08 AM
Picked up a Warn 9.5XP. It is the biggest winch that will fit in the Short Bus bumber.

Again, NICE! 'bout freaking time! :rolleyes: :)

rover67
01-10-2010, 05:26 PM
Went with the Suplerline XD synthetic for the Ptarmigan after talking to Ben and Joe about what to buy. The knot is a double half hitch. It looks like their military XD line is spliced but this version is not. As far as it being filed splice-able, all you would need to know is how to tie a half hitch. One of the biggest advantages is that this rope won't flatten out on the last few wraps on the drum making it easier to work with. The abrasion and UV protection are nice too. From what I have read on the boat forums, the knot = 35% less strength than a splice.

http://www.masterpull.com/cpage.cfm?cpid=478

16497

16498

5/16" @ 21,000lb breaking strength -

-The Superline XD synthetic winch line is manufactured with the most advanced technology in synthetic rope manufacturing today. The rope starts as a larger diameter line and is heated and stretched down to its final diameter, just like our regular Superline. This process gives the Superline XD an excellent breaking strength since it has the strength of a larger diameter line in a smaller diameter. The pre-stretching also gives the rope better abrasion resistance compared to normal Dyneema winch ropes.
-For even more abrasion resistance, the rope has a tightly braided cover along the whole length of the rope. This cover gives the inner Superline core excellent protection against abrasion, especially abrasion from dirt and sand. With coverless winch lines, dirt and sand can get lodged in between the strands of the rope and can cause fraying, which in some cases leads to a 20% loss in the rope's breaking strength. The Superline XD cover keeps dirt and sand out of the core and prevents this abrasion from happening. It also gives the inner core complete protection from UV rays. Ultimately this means that if used properly, the Superline XD will last much longer than a normal winch line, and you won't have to replace your line nearly as often.

That stuff looks nice man. Mine flattens out a lot on the winch drum, and I think about UV degredation a lot as it sits spooled up semi uncovered. Looke like both issues are addressed.

corsair23
01-11-2010, 01:09 AM
Went with the Suplerline XD synthetic for the Ptarmigan after talking to Ben and Joe about what to buy.

:eek: - Crickey that is expensive stuff

I looked at that for about a nano-second but they don't make 7/16" XD and the 3/8" stuff I'd need runs close to $600 for 100' :o

corsair23
01-12-2010, 06:57 PM
Just stick with the 7/16th's and know you have an extra safety factor built in.

I would go 3/8 and you could always increase the strength of the 3/8's to the 7/16 equivalent line by using the masterpull line. http://www.masterpull.com/cpage.cfm?cpid=197.

Spoke with Thor at winchline.com (Viking Offroad)...

Asked about going down in size from the 7/16" that is on the winch now to 3/8". He doesn't recommend doing so but up to me :rolleyes:

I'm vain and found out that the 3/8" stuff is available in black :hill: - Black winchline on a black truck adds to the :cool: factor but puts the line's strength near the winch's max pulling capability :confused:

Also asked him about a heat guard for the first layer of rope. They don't believe in them (anymore - use to offer it) because typically the nylon heat guard melts at about the same temp as the winchline and doesn't shield the line from the heat...There are higher temp protective solutions according to Thor but they are generally cost prohibitive. His suggestion is to be careful on powered out use and follow the winch manufacturer's guidelines for loaded powered out use (maybe 20 secs at a time max...have to look that up)

Also asked him about enough length of abrasion guard to cover the first layer of rope while it sits on the drum...They sell it in 8' sections and can't go longer (but you can do multiple lengths) because as it is at 8' they require special tools to get the abrasion guard on. I recall having fun getting a 10' section on my last rope so this makes some sense. As another idea he mentioned getting a winch line cover (http://www.offroadtrailtools.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=244) to protect the rope. Not real fond of the look though :rolleyes: - Warn makes whole winch covers (have one on my M8274) but they are designed to go on winches that have been mounted feet down vs. feet forward.


So now I'm at a point...Go for the vain and :cool: factor and get the 3/8" black or go for the safety factor and get the 7/16" blue? :o - Length will be 100' regardless. If I won the lottery I'd get the Masterpull XD stuff but too much :twocents: for me right now - Plus I want to go with the safety thimble and Viking seems to be the only one that offers it :confused:

corsair23
01-13-2010, 01:46 PM
So now I'm at a point...Go for the vain and :cool: factor and get the 3/8" black or go for the safety factor and get the 7/16" blue? :o - Length will be 100' regardless. If I won the lottery I'd get the Masterpull XD stuff but too much :twocents: for me right now - Plus I want to go with the safety thimble and Viking seems to be the only one that offers it :confused:

:help:

Yeah, I'm overthinking it right? Just go with the 7/16" blue and call it good :confused:

rover67
01-13-2010, 02:15 PM
Get the 7/16 blue stuff and go to REI and get some black nylon webbing (not the flat stuff, but the tubular type) to use as the UV guard for the last wrap.

My winchline came with some ugly yellow nylon webbing that has been on there for a while. It works OK.

I like having line that is way overrated for the winch.... hearing the steel cable ping and pop under stress with that winch was unnerving.. with the synthetic that's slightly oversize I feel like I never have to worry even if I'm pulling on the last wrap at close to stalling the winch.

Hulk
01-13-2010, 03:48 PM
:help:

Yeah, I'm overthinking it right? Just go with the 7/16" blue and call it good :confused:

Jeff, I think I have the 3/8" -- does the 15,000 lb. winch require the 7/16"? Your 80 is probably lighter than mine. I bet the 3/8" would be just fine.

corsair23
01-13-2010, 04:31 PM
Jeff, I think I have the 3/8" -- does the 15,000 lb. winch require the 7/16"? Your 80 is probably lighter than mine. I bet the 3/8" would be just fine.

Yeah, you probably have the 3/8" as that is what comes on a M12K wire wise. As for whether the M15K requires 7/16"...Realistically you can put whatever size you want on any winch if you're willing to take the chance of it breaking (not than correct sized rope can't break).

The 3/8" syn rope is good for ~17.6k lbs depending on what site you read. 7/16" is good for ~21.5k lbs. Masterpull lists their basic stuff at 18k and 23.8k respectively. IMO those are just numbers and rely on whoever is posting them to be honest with the number. I got the impression from Thor that they underrate what they sell rather than inflate. As Thor told me, he'll sell me whatever I want but wanted to make sure I understood the possible ramifications. Price wise the 3/8" and 7/16" rope is w/in $11 of each other for 100'.

Thor's concern is that syn rope is more susceptible to chafing. He said if you chafe just a 6" section of the rope it would affect all strands since they intertwine. That chafe could weaken the rope by 10% or more which for the 3/8" would put the rope right near what my winch can dish out :o. Not a problem if I'm winching 6k lbs up a slight incline but could be a problem if I'm trying to unstick myself from the snow.

I wouldn't be real happy with myself snapping a $400 winchline because I went for the :cool: factor over the safety factor :doh:

But then I think, the 3/8" syn rope is actually stronger than the wire rope that is on the winch now so what is the big deal :hill:

corsair23
01-13-2010, 04:36 PM
Get the 7/16 blue stuff and go to REI and get some black nylon webbing (not the flat stuff, but the tubular type) to use as the UV guard for the last wrap.

I'll probably just get an extra section of the Viking stuff, although the REI approach sounds like a good solution. I'm on the hunt for some 1st layer heat guard stuff though. Found some hits on the web last night so we'll see. Honestly for the # of times I'll probably ever use the winch I'm going overkill but better prepared than not :)

rover67
01-13-2010, 04:46 PM
I just got some of this stuff to slip over some wiring that was near my headers..

http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/32012/10002/-1

it's a fiberglass looking woven sleeve on the inside coated in a silicone looking stuff. maybe the first wrap of winchline could have this slipped over it? I wonder how it'd hold up under there.

I don't have anything in between my winchline and the drum.. but I don't power out for more than a few seconds to unspool tight spots.

I've never had to lower the rig or somebody elses rig, but I haven't wheeled a whole lot. In normal winching the drum has stayed really cool. last weekend i did quite a bit of winching followed by pulling cable back down to the first wrap, then long winching and pulling it down to the first wrap again and the drum was still pretty cool.

Uncle Ben
01-13-2010, 05:36 PM
I just got some of this stuff to slip over some wiring that was near my headers..

http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/32012/10002/-1

it's a fiberglass looking woven sleeve on the inside coated in a silicone looking stuff. maybe the first wrap of winchline could have this slipped over it? I wonder how it'd hold up under there.

I don't have anything in between my winchline and the drum.. but I don't power out for more than a few seconds to unspool tight spots.

I've never had to lower the rig or somebody elses rig, but I haven't wheeled a whole lot. In normal winching the drum has stayed really cool. last weekend i did quite a bit of winching followed by pulling cable back down to the first wrap, then long winching and pulling it down to the first wrap again and the drum was still pretty cool.



Powering out just is not very common unless you have to lower the rig down a hill. Guess that might have a need someday but I've never witnessed anyone ever doing it. Normal operation should not cause the brake to drag and cause heat.

corsair23
01-13-2010, 05:46 PM
I just got some of this stuff to slip over some wiring that was near my headers..

http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/32012/10002/-1

it's a fiberglass looking woven sleeve on the inside coated in a silicone looking stuff. maybe the first wrap of winchline could have this slipped over it? I wonder how it'd hold up under there.

Thats looks a lot like some of the stuff I found

As for how necessary this is...Probably not much and I may never have a need to "use" it if I never have to lower someone down a hill. But one thing I came away with from GTR '09 with was to be as prepared as possible :o - Since I am redoing my winch now is the perfect time to do this.

I don't wheel much, and I use my winch even less, but in my short 3 years in the club I've witnessed in person one occassion where someone had to be winched down an obstacle (the waterfall on Poison Spider) and then the Spooky Night Run last year Subzali had to do it. The chances that it will ever be me needing to do that are probably less than me winning the lottery but if that times ever comes I can say I am ready :thumb:

powderpig
01-13-2010, 05:51 PM
Only in the Monkey Wrench Gang did they talk about lowering the jeep over a cliff for 70-80 ft:D:thumb:

nakman
01-13-2010, 06:08 PM
Thats looks a lot like some of the stuff I found

As for how necessary this is...Probably not much and I may never have a need to "use" it if I never have to lower someone down a hill. But one thing I came away with from GTR '09 with was to be as prepared as possible :o - Since I am redoing my winch now is the perfect time to do this.

I don't wheel much, and I use my winch even less, but in my short 3 years in the club I've witnessed in person one occassion where someone had to be winched down an obstacle (the waterfall on Poison Spider) and then the Spooky Night Run last year Subzali had to do it. The chances that it will ever be me needing to do that are probably less than me winning the lottery but if that times ever comes I can say I am ready :thumb:

Jeff, just curious what were the circumstances that forced someone to be winched down the waterfall? Did they just get off the line, or broken somehow? I admit, that's a definite pucker and it's tough to know how high up the wall to stay before turning down..

corsair23
01-13-2010, 06:34 PM
Only in the Monkey Wrench Gang did they talk about lowering the jeep over a cliff for 70-80 ft

I was hoping Mr. Toyota Trails Tech Editor and recovery dood extraiordinaire would give me his professional opinion on this :thumb:


Jeff, just curious what were the circumstances that forced someone to be winched down the waterfall? Did they just get off the line, or broken somehow? I admit, that's a definite pucker and it's tough to know how high up the wall to stay before turning down..

My very first CM event...Second trail ever driven in the LX and this :eek: :hill:

Waterfall on Poison Spider Mesa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arRi6NnsPd4) - first couple minutes of the video

Nathaniel could probably fill in the blanks but from what I recall it was the driver not following the spotter's instructions although if you look in the video comments the driver who posted up blamed it on the spotter...Watching the video again, this probably didn't heat the drum up enough to be affect the rope.

The heat guard is just a "nice to add while I'm there" thing once I settle on which rope size to go with...Stupid M15K making me overthink things...But hey, I can recreate the scene from "The Gods Must Be Crazy" if I ever want to :hill:

Convert
01-13-2010, 08:09 PM
[QUOTE)...Stupid M15K making me overthink things.:[/QUOTE]

Jeff
You are correct you are over thinking. Synthetic is lighter and stronger than cable of the same size it is also much safer.Compare the specs of 3/8" cable to 3/8" rope. The issues with heat on the drum are are minimal compared to to the big picture. I have had 2 rigs with different brands of synthetic rope that the winch was used quite a bit and neither rope has failed to date (son in law has the H**p now). Also you can not look at this as a lifetime purchase this is an expendable item just like all rigging equipment. IE Strap have wear indicators in them to inform you that they need replaced. Hope my 2 cents helps.

nakman
01-13-2010, 08:31 PM
Ah so! Yes, the higher line near the wall is a lot better.. :)

corsair23
01-13-2010, 08:34 PM
Hope my 2 cents helps.

So you're saying I'll be ok with the 3/8"? :lmao:

Guess I've beaten this dead horse enough huh...It is so unlike me to struggle with making a decision :rolleyes: :hill: - I'll just have to surprise everyone with what I buy :)

wesintl
01-13-2010, 08:40 PM
stick with gac.. it's brand new. no reason to replace it other than to hang with
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/Rainbow-diagram-ROYGBIV.svg/800px-Rainbow-diagram-ROYGBIV.svg.png

Rzeppa
01-13-2010, 09:03 PM
stick with gac.. it's brand new. no reason to replace it other than to hang with


With a winch with brand-new GAC, yeah I'd keep it for sure. After handling GAC for so many years, well, it's kinda like vintage bias-ply tires. When they're worn out, glad to replace 'em with radials. I love my Synth, but got great use out of the GAC. When it's time to replace - upgrade.

corsair23
01-14-2010, 02:26 AM
stick with gac.. it's brand new

I thought about it...several times now...But I've given away all my roller fairlead stuff to make it work with my ARB and the roller fairlead that came with the M15K will go with the XD9000 so...yeah, I'm justifying dropping the :twocents: on the synthetic but a little color is our lives is good :hill:

leiniesred
01-14-2010, 10:32 AM
I've done 5 back-to-back powered out downhill winches on my M8000 on my 4runner. The rope was undamaged.

Sure it was an iced trail in winter snow so the ambient temps were pretty low. Sure the brake on my winch has never really worked either, but no one else melted a winchline powering out 5 back to back sets. I think 2 of the Jeeps had rope, and the other 2 had cable. All had Warn winches with brakes inside the drum.

Air Randy
01-18-2010, 05:35 PM
If anyone is interested, Justin from Redline Cruisers has a brand new 125' Viking 5/16 synthetic winch line for sale for $250. 719-210-0101

DaveInDenver
03-10-2010, 02:53 PM
Shopping for replacement rollers to use in the fairlead my first thought was Viking. These are Delrin and $86.

17576

But I came across a set made by Daystar, $40 and polyurethane.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Daystar/319/KU70054BK/10002/-1?parentProductId=1164458

17574 17575


So is there an advantage to Delrin over PUR for this application?

Rzeppa
03-10-2010, 09:16 PM
Shopping for replacement rollers to use in the fairlead my first thought was Viking. These are Delrin and $86.

17576

But I came across a set made by Daystar, $40 and polyurethane.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Daystar/319/KU70054BK/10002/-1?parentProductId=1164458

17574 17575


So is there an advantage to Delrin over PUR for this application?

Delrin is stronger - it is a name-brand nylon variant. PU performance depends on a lot of factors, such as durometer - it comes in a wide variety of durometers. Softer is kinder to rope but will wear and gouge easily.

PU is generally more chemically resistant than Delrin, although both are susceptible to degradation from aromatic hydrocarbons and UV.

The higher cost of the Delrin rollers is probably because it was machined instead of extruded, Delrin material is generally less expensive than PU. The tooling for extruding PU is much cheaper than that for PU, so the Delrin rollers were probably machined.

At the end of the day, either would probably be superior to AL simply for corrosion resistance.