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View Full Version : 33's or 35's?


bskey
02-13-2008, 07:36 AM
I bought my truck in October with Studded snows, and will leave them on through the winter. When April/May hits, I want to go with BFG A/T's as this is my daily driver. It's an '85 4Runner with some rear fender cutting (the truck initiated this with rust, and I finished it off....), 3inch spring lift and 1.5 inch shackle lift. It'll have 5.29 gearing by then too.

Should I run 33 or 35 inch tires. I know I want 12.5x15, but I am not yet convinced on the height.

Thanks for any advice!!

Red_Chili
02-13-2008, 07:56 AM
33s will save some wear and tear on the axles, but really your front is strong enough for 35s without issue (especially if you go with Longfields). Depends on what you want to do really. 33s and 5.29s will result in slightly short gearing, which will be an advantage with a 4Runner with the extra weight, but your rpms will be higher than what you are used to. 35s and 5.29s will result in near stock overall gearing.

RockRunner
02-13-2008, 08:27 AM
Since the gearing has been explained we'll skip that part. 35's and 5.29 are still a little above stock gearing but they work real well together. Everyday driving is fine and 5th gear is still usable.

I can't remember if you did your brakes already or not, 35's like more braking power. 35's will allow you to roll over obsticles easier when you do wheel the rig and also give you a little smoother ride on the road. They will sway a little more but I never noticed it. With your gearing you will actually loose some MPG with the 33's as you will be turning higher RPM's than the 35's.

Cost is a little bit more on the 35's but not to crazy. If you are looking for AT tires take a look at the Mickey Thompson A/T's, we ran those on my wife's 4Runner for nearly 45K miles and still got $25 a tire when we got new ones. They are great on the road in the snow and what little dirt they saw. Once the tires wear out on her FJ we will be getting a new set of MT for her again.

As far as looks go I prefer the 35" tire but that is a judgement call.

bskey
02-13-2008, 08:31 AM
I have upgraded to the larger booster and master cylender from a '95, SS lines and I will be putting the '95 calipers and FJ rotors on once I rebuild the hubs. I also will be putting the larger drums on from the '86 soon. I am a bit of a brake nut, and that was the first thing I wanted to upgrade when I got my truck as the stock setup was tired and really lacking. So, brakes wont be a problem.

So far it sounds like 35's are the way to go. Do you think I will have any clearance issues?

bskey
02-13-2008, 08:32 AM
Oh, and the cost difference is so minute that it's not a factor here. Also, I'd like to go longfields someday, eventually, but it is not too high on my upgrade list due to the high cost.

RockRunner
02-13-2008, 09:16 AM
You may rub on some extreme flex areas but all in all I think you will be OK. As you start running the harder trails you'll be wanting the Longfields, just get them when you blow yours.

Also another way of getting some more clearance is a 1-2" body lift. You'll be able to lift the gas tank and raise your drive train making your break over angle better.

Red_Chili
02-13-2008, 09:27 AM
With your gearing you will actually loose some MPG with the 33's as you will be turning higher RPM's than the 35's.

I would disagree with this one point. I have noticed with Toy motors (the 3.0, and the 22RE) that running lower RPMs will actually cause you to lose more mileage than letting the motor 'spin'. It is more efficient at higher RPM for one, and for another the lower gearing (to a point) actually improves the motor's leverage over the wheels, allowing it to work less hard. This equals slightly less throttle and slightly improved mileage.

Toting the heavier 35s around will also cost you mileage due to trying to overcome greater rotational mass.

It's not huge, figure 1-2mpg tops.

DaveInDenver
02-13-2008, 11:21 AM
I would disagree with this one point. I have noticed with Toy motors (the 3.0, and the 22RE) that running lower RPMs will actually cause you to lose more mileage than letting the motor 'spin'. It is more efficient at higher RPM for one, and for another the lower gearing (to a point) actually improves the motor's leverage over the wheels, allowing it to work less hard. This equals slightly less throttle and slightly improved mileage.

Toting the heavier 35s around will also cost you mileage due to trying to overcome greater rotational mass.

It's not huge, figure 1-2mpg tops.
Bill is right, at least about the 22R-E (know nothing about the 3VZ). I run 33x9.50 and 5.29, which is pretty short, but I don't mind. I think a 5.17 would have been cool if it was an option, but there aren't any for Toyota. But in any case, I get fine mileage on the highway at 65MPH, around 20MPG give or take. On the Western Slope past Glenwood would be nice to have 4.88, but the trip between Denver and Vail, MUCH less stressful with 5.29 and a 22R-E. I still can't go fast, but I have pedal left going up hill. Still using 3rd and 50MPH, but if I come up to a really slow semi or a Westfalia, I can accelerate and pass. Mind you it's not a 5.0 Mustang pass, but I can get up to 60MPH and make the pass. In 3rd gear that means I'm turning 4,000 RPM in 3rd. On the flats in 5th, indicated 70MPH (about 10% error in the speedometer), my RPM are right at 3,000RPM (so say that's about 63~65MPH for real). It's low. I do use 5th a lot, but it's nice to pass on flats or hit little hills without downshifting.

When talking about mileage and power, the lowest RPMs are not always the most efficient. Yes, the slower the engine turns the less gas it uses, but there is a sweet spot where the engine makes the most power for the amount of gas used. On big V6s and V8s, that point might be 2,500 RPM and above that you burn more gas without an equal increase in power. On the 22R-E the torque peak is 2,900 and the HP peak is about 4,000 RPM. It seems in my experience that the engine makes it's most usable power right around 3,000~4,000 RPM, above that it's just spinning and not pulling much. Below about 2,000 the engine chugs OK, but it's hopelessly struggling on the highway. So about 2,500 to 3,500 it's happy, making good power and it does not suck gas. I try to cruise at 2,500 to 2,900 RPM.

But our truck is not designed to cover mileage in a hurry and so if it takes an extra 30 minutes or an hour more to get to Moab, so what? I take side roads, frontage roads, two-lanes, alternate routes anyway when I can.

My reasoning on staying with 33" tires is mostly the width. I don't want 12.50" wide tires and at least BFG still makes the 33x9.50 or 33x10.50 size. I think a 9.50 or 10.50 makes more sense with a lighter truck anyway. Plus you have less rubbing issues. I still have IFS and the combo of pizza cutters, torsion lift, pinch seam reworking and minimal backspace increase just works. I geared because I'm asking a 22R-E to haul around a XtraCab with the camper and I don't skimp on the amount of beer on board...

bskey
02-13-2008, 11:36 AM
More great info to consider....

On the 12.5 vs. 9.5 or 10.5, I'm not too worried about rubbing as I'll be going with spacers up front and the '86 axle in back so I'll have a bit more width. I would think a wider footprint for crawling is more desireable? Any feedback on that?

DaveInDenver
02-13-2008, 11:57 AM
More great info to consider....

On the 12.5 vs. 9.5 or 10.5, I'm not too worried about rubbing as I'll be going with spacers up front and the '86 axle in back so I'll have a bit more width. I would think a wider footprint for crawling is more desireable? Any feedback on that?

Spacers will widen your track, stability is increased. As you lift the truck you need to consider widening the stance to compensate. But a couple of inches of lift with a stock track is not going to be instant roll over. But, sure, you do have to be careful and so if you can go wider without rubbing, that's a good thing.

But less backspace or wheel spacers will increase your rubbing problems, not make them less. You need to keep the tires tucked in under the fender lip with the wheel stuffed. If I run a 12.50" wide tire, I'd have to cut the fender lip or have a lot more lift. You have more options with the solid axle, since the wheel doesn't travel up and down as straight as mine.

How much lift are you intending to run?

Red_Chili
02-13-2008, 12:25 PM
Big Friendly Hammer will take care of any rubbing issues. Moving your front axle forward (haha!, IFS guys...) will also help a great deal.
7814

Wider stance is definitely better. One thing I picked up with the beadlocks, since they were 10" wide wheels this time with the same backspacing, is more width. I can feel it. Way mo betta.

bskey
02-13-2008, 01:23 PM
I've cut about an inch and a half from my rear fenders, and my fronts appear to have lots of room, and I have already flattened the seam welds. I have 4 1/2 total lift, and dont really want to go much higher, so I am looking for a size that will fit now.

Bill, how difficult is it to move the axle foreward? Longer drive shaft, relocate shock hoops(?), lengthen track bar (?), move spring perches (?)... I'm not sure what thqat entails. If I do that, I am guessing it would be a good time to do dual cases as well due to the necessary drive shaft modifications?

RockRunner
02-13-2008, 01:40 PM
Some good info on the tire size. Just aninteresting fact, I am running 5.29's and 37" tires. My speedo reads within about a mile when compared to the GPS. Now this could be because the speedo was off when stock or ???? Seems like 37's return it to stock more with 5.29's but when doing the math that is not the case.

DaveInDenver
02-13-2008, 01:54 PM
Moving your front axle forward (haha!, IFS guys...)
We don't gotta go mess about moving axles forward because they don't move backwards to begin with. :-P

RockRunner
02-13-2008, 02:09 PM
We don't gotta go mess about moving axles forward because they don't move backwards to begin with. :-P

It is a way of getting more tire to fit in the wheel well with out having to cut into the rear section. Believe it or not the axle will move backwards during hard twisted compresion.

RockRunner
02-13-2008, 02:17 PM
Bill, how difficult is it to move the axle forward? Longer drive shaft, relocate shock hoops(?), lengthen track bar (?), move spring perches (?)... I'm not sure what that entails. If I do that, I am guessing it would be a good time to do dual cases as well due to the necessary drive shaft modifications?

Some of the things you mentioned will need to be done. Depending on how much money you want to spend decides some of the mods.


install front spring hanger
possibly move rear spring hanger location
move steering box forward
move shock hoops
if more lift you can tilt the front pumpkin up a few degrees
brake lines are OK but should go to SS
track bar is removed
move bump stops
Drive shaft should be OK still
If second Case then change DS
Move stabilizer
install cross over steering You are there anyway
rebuild whole axle with Longs
Gears locker hubs since you are there.
install pumpkin protection
ROB A BANK TO PAY FOR IT ALL!!!


Bill, anything I forgot???

Oh yeah buy a ton of grinding wheels and a new grinder :D DAMHIK

A plasma cutter and 220 welder would be great to or a friend you know that has one :rolleyes:

Red_Chili
02-13-2008, 02:32 PM
I moved my axle forward with a drill, a large bit, and that is about it. 3/4" gained, +/-. You do NOT want to have the locating pin outside (or near outside) of the clamping area of the U bolts however! Doing this, you won't.

You redrill the spring perches on the axle (one hole, IIRC the passenger side, is already almost large enough) and the Ubolt plate, and bolt everything back together.

I will admit, I underestimated the driveshaft extension and got to MacGyver a driveshaft repair on Holy Cross one afternoon... :lmao:
so you do want to make sure your driveshaft has the extension for it. I found out that, when doing a serious climb, the axle moves forward about a half inch more than you think it would!

bskey
02-13-2008, 10:08 PM
Tom, can you recommend a vendor to price those Mickey Thompsons?

Nay
02-13-2008, 10:31 PM
My view on 33's is that they are coming to a classifieds section near you because you don't really want them. It's rarely a "need" decision, but more how much you love the way your truck looks and feels every time you see it in a parking lot and wheel it. The rest can be built up or hammered back :D.

The AT vs. MT discussion goes along the same lines. You may love the logic of the AT (supposedly long treadlife on a 35" tire for daily use), but you'll actually love driving (and seeing) the modern MT in all conditions on and offroad. Go trxus, MTR, Toyo, Cooper and don't look back. :thumb:

RockRunner
02-13-2008, 10:53 PM
Tom, can you recommend a vendor to price those Mickey Thompsons?

We get them from performance warehouse on Sante fe and Oxford, best price in town. They also carry the whole lot of brands.

bskey
02-14-2008, 11:33 AM
Tom, Bill, Steve, Dave.... Do you guys see the A/T vs. M/T argument in the same light at Nay? Would I be happier with one vs the other. Remember, 85% Daily Driver. Some long highway, mostly stop and go for my 15 minute in city commute.

powderpig
02-14-2008, 12:09 PM
If you can afford two sets of rims and tires, then this will net you some better handleing and fuel ecomany. Just change the tires over to your more aggressive for wheeling. You may also want to look at the general tire The AT2. a 2 ply side wall, but a real nice tread pattern close to the BFG AT. It is a little more open, nice at tread design. I have a set currently and they are a tall tire. I paid 170 a tire and I saw on Tire rack they can be as low as 150. a tire for a 35(315 17 r16).
I personally like the better handling part of a good AT, better braking and ice handling is a key for me. I have swampers for my wheeling tires, which I like much better off road. Any how good luck on the choices you have to make. Later Robbie

Red_Chili
02-14-2008, 12:36 PM
Tom, Bill, Steve, Dave.... Do you guys see the A/T vs. M/T argument in the same light at Nay? Would I be happier with one vs the other. Remember, 85% Daily Driver. Some long highway, mostly stop and go for my 15 minute in city commute.
Yes... and no...
Yes: The Red Chili is shod with MT/Rs. I like the way they handle in ice, snow, offroad, and for the most part on the highway. They are almost round this time, but that has been a bit of a challenge. MT/Rs have had quite a bit of quality variableness lately, and it took me two sets to get round ones. I would be interested in Toyos next go round for this reason. I use the Chili for wheeling, but also towing a camper to Wyoming and Utah and hunting or CM. So highway matters too. Swampers would never work for me. My goal is more expedition than rock crawling.

No: The BlackBean, a Taco, is shod with 33/10.50x15 BFG ATs. They have good clearance, they were free (I won them in a radio contest, go figger), they almost clear everything due to being pizza cutters, they are quiet on the highway, they do not impact mpg too badly, they will last a good long time compared to MT/Rs. This is my daily driver vehicle. They are just OK on ice, the MT/Rs are actually better. Some report experiences at odds with mine regarding this. They work OK.

No: The Green Chili, a 97 4Runner, is my wife's daily driver. It has largish 285/75R16 BFG ATs. They look pretty good on it, and they work pretty well. I had BFG ATs (smaller) when I had to take it to Cruise Moab in 2005 because the Red Chili was undergoing a motor swap. They did just fine on the slickrock, and wet sand/mud. The big decisionmaker here is mileage and highway comfort. Even ATs wore out too fast (my wife drives a lot).

So what you can take from this is, it depends. You have to decide based on intended usage and pocketbook.

corsair23
02-14-2008, 12:50 PM
My 2 cents worth since I can't resist :)

I went with Toyo MTs and siped them. Realistically 95+%, of my yearly driving is on the road. The LX is my DD and of the 6-7K miles or so per year I put on the rig I the majority of those are on the road...Even in CM how many miles are actually offroad? On other offroad trips (unless you're doing expeditions) you probably spend more miles on the road getting to and from the trail than you do offroad once there.

So, with that logic I should have probably gone with ATs. I went with the MTs, siped them for better poor weather handling (despite contrary opinions about chunking etc), and haven't looked back. The Toyos seem to be wearing really well which was a concern for me considering how expensive they are. Romer has had his longer and might be able to comment on the wear better.

bskey
02-14-2008, 01:45 PM
The Toyos (which I am not at all familiar with) seem to have a great reputation for quality. That's a fear I have of the Mickey Thompsons. I'd love 2 sets of tires, but I will be keeping the studded snows I have on there now for next winter, and I live in an apartment, so more tires is not really an option.

Red_Chili
02-14-2008, 01:51 PM
A stack of wheels makes a great end table. Creative repurposing!

DaveInDenver
02-14-2008, 01:56 PM
I'm running BFG ATs at the moment, but have run both ATs and MTs in various smaller sizes over the years. All BF Goodrich versions, no experience with anything else. I find the ATs noticeably less sketchy on snow packed roads than the MTs, even if you sipe them. Deep snow and mud, no question the ATs are not optimal. They do OK, but the AT is just that, an all terrain tread. It will be sufficient at most things and probably not perfect at any. I'd like to re-shoe the truck with MTs for the Rubithon, but I'm planning on keeping the ATs mounted, too. In the winter I like the ATs more, they just feel like to me they transition from traction to slipping a little less quick than the MTs. But like I say my experience is with BFG MTs and so the MT/R and some of the other patterns are supposed to be a bit better. Also BFG is coming out with a new MT tread, but the 15" sizes will remain the same until the end of this year. I very much doubt I'll be moving away from BFG at this point, primarily because of the 33x10.50 and 33x9.50 sizing in 15" rims. Personally I would stick with an AT tread for a DD as the first set and then if or when money allows, get a second set of rims. This is another reason I stick with 15" rims, you can get them for free all the time...

wesintl
02-14-2008, 02:02 PM
bfg 35's measure to be 33"

problem solved ;)

AxleIke
02-14-2008, 02:03 PM
Tom, Bill, Steve, Dave.... Do you guys see the A/T vs. M/T argument in the same light at Nay? Would I be happier with one vs the other. Remember, 85% Daily Driver. Some long highway, mostly stop and go for my 15 minute in city commute.

With that much wheeling, I'd say go for the M/T's. I run BFG A/T's, and my truck sees 99% road miles, 1% wheeling. I sacrifice offroad traction somewhat for on road manners and mileage.

But for that much bias toward wheeling, I wouldn't sacrifice offroad manners for minor inconvenience on the hwy.

Wish my bias was more that direction.

AxleIke
02-14-2008, 02:05 PM
A stack of wheels makes a great end table. Creative repurposing!

I can speak to that. Transfercases make good art, bumpers and axles make good knick knacks!!!! LOL

bskey
02-14-2008, 02:37 PM
So I am reading about these:

1. TOYO Open Country® A/T (http://www.toyo.com/docs/tires/tires.asp?lpid=18971&name=Open%20Country®%20A/T&category=lgt-suv-truck)

2. BFG All-Terrain T/A® KO (http://www.bfgoodrichtires.com/overview/all-terrain-t-a-ko/44.html)

3. Mickey Thompson Baja ATZ Radial Plus (http://www.mickeythompsontires.com/truck.php?item=BajaATZRadialPlus)

4. General Tire Grabber™ AT2 (http://www.generaltire.com/generator/www/us/en/generaltire/automobile/themes/van/all_terrain/grabber_at2/master_en.html)


I'm leaning towards 35x12.5x15. I may consider a narrower tire if available.

Opinions?

bskey
02-14-2008, 02:40 PM
Oh, and my estimate of off road time was off, I am probably closer to 95% on road, but I hope to pick up a second car this summer and transition the 4Runner into a bad weather DD and weekend wheeler!

Red_Chili
02-14-2008, 02:40 PM
Good size.
Now put a Toy V6 in that rustbucket and you won't worry about lugging them around.

bskey
02-14-2008, 03:14 PM
....yeah, that's on the L o n g list! For now I'm squeezing as much as I can out of the 22RE w/ 230k miles.

treerootCO
02-14-2008, 03:21 PM
I plan on running the Toyo Open Country MT on the DD 80.

RockRunner
02-14-2008, 04:41 PM
When time comes to replace my tires I am going to look at Toyo, Truxes and one other brand, name escapes me. i like my MTR's but there are better tires out there for off road. Since we drive the 4Runner less than 2K a year and run about 10-15 trails a year we can afford to go more aggressive and forgo the MPG etc.

If price was not an option i would buy the Toyo's first then most likely the MT's and the General. I nearly got a set of generals before the MTR's but they could nto find the correct size. Since I am running 15" rims tire choices are getting less and less. No big deal but it does cause a first choice to be eliminated sometimes.

Pick a tire and go one more step aggressive, you won't notice it that much.

Red_Chili
02-14-2008, 08:52 PM
Good point on the 15s. If I didn't already have the tires, I would have gone 16 or 17 when I bought the beadlocks.