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Corbet
02-19-2008, 09:42 PM
I'd like to add a pair of accessory outlets to the side of my center console before CM. My CB runs off one and I'm going to add a Sirius Stiletto. That will leave one extra for phones, GPS, etc...

Anyway, who's got a good source for the outlet hardware. The best I've found so far is from West Marine.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/223116/377%20710%201639/0/Adapters,%20Plugs%20/Primary%20Search/mode%20matchallpartial/30/0?N=377%20710%201639&Ne=0&Ntt=Adapters,%20Plugs%20&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&page=CategoryDisplayLevel1&isLTokenURL=true&storeNum=5002&subdeptNum=9&classNum=311

What has everyone else used? Is there anything out there that will offer a stock look?

Romer
02-19-2008, 09:52 PM
I got a 12V outlet at pepboys. I actually have two on the right side of the center console and then another in the back. All individually fused in a secondary fuse box and always on.

nuclearlemon
02-19-2008, 10:56 PM
got the ones for teh raffle rig at checker.

corsair23
02-20-2008, 12:08 AM
Corbet,

I ran out of time before CM07 so I went hi-tech and picked up something like this (except mine is silver, has an on/off switch, and was had at Target or Wally World for ~$10 IIRC):

http://www.realtruck.com/php/watermark.php?code=ec-7041.wct&id=972

I still don't have additional outlets installed :rolleyes: - But, this has worked for me and I've have the kid's DVD player, cell phone, and IPOD all plugged in and powered at one time with no problems. :hill:

I know it isn't what you are looking for but in case you get in a time crunch it might be an option.

Corbet
02-20-2008, 08:52 AM
Kind of off the topic but part of this install. I'll also be adding an accessory fuse block to handle the power outlets as well as a future HAM install. Looking ahead, is it safe to assume a 15a circuits will meet the power demands of a HAM radio, ARB frig, etc....

Thinking something like this right now.

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=PRF%2D70207&N=700+115&autoview=sku

Or there was a thread on MUD regarding using an OEM cherokee fuse box that looked pretty cool.

corsair23
02-20-2008, 01:16 PM
Kind of off the topic but part of this install. I'll also be adding an accessory fuse block to handle the power outlets as well as a future HAM install. Looking ahead, is it safe to assume a 15a circuits will meet the power demands of a HAM radio, ARB frig, etc....

Corbet, this thread might help some --> http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showthread.php?t=3567

Starting with post #31 there is discussion on adding a second fuse block with some helpful information on wiring size etc. As for amp ratings once you have the fuse block installed then you can wire up and fuse the individual circuits at the appropriate size for what the device requires. How big of a secondary fuse block you need (max amp rating, max # of circuits, etc.) is determined by what all you are planning to add. I would suggest going the next size up to allow for growth (i.e. you plan to add 3 ckts then go for a block that will support 6 or more ckts)

HTH :cheers:

Corbet
02-20-2008, 02:57 PM
I'm looking at a 7 circuit block. 3 always hot, 4 ignition.

Probably wire up the HAM, Frig, and one front outlet always hot. The other 4 leave for additional outlets and other misc crap.

Anyway the ARB website only gives an average amp hour draw. (.7 - 2.7 amp hour) Anyone with real world experience of what a frig will draw while actually running at max? Looks like most of the HAM's I've looked at are fused at 15a. So I'm good there.

The only thing that has me a little worried about that painless unit is the 30a relay. Each circuit has a 20a fuse. But if all the ignition hot circuits have to run through the 30a relay then you could in theory overload it. (if I understand it correctly?)

I guess having an engineer as a roommate for 10 years makes me over think everything too much. :rolleyes:

Thanks for the link, I'll research a few of the links inside that thread.

corsair23
02-20-2008, 05:05 PM
Hopefully Romer will chime in :D

He has a fridge and all the goodies plus being the EE he is this is probably no brainer stuff for him. I'm no help because I still don't have the foggiest of an idea how you make a ckt "ignition switched" vs. hot :hill: - When I installed my CB I just ran power straight off the battery. That I can do :)

Corbet
02-20-2008, 06:10 PM
I'm no help because I still don't have the foggiest of an idea how you make a ckt "ignition switched" vs. hot :hill: -

With the painless box you just need to tap into a circuit you know is ignition hot, and that trips the relay. The relay then completes the circuit at the fuse box. But your main power still comes right off the battery. You then add accessories to the box just like you would to the battery.

Accessories added to the always hot circuits are pretty much connected directly to the battery but the box is just a fancy inline fuse.

Pretty much just like using a wiring harness for a set of driving lights. But the fuse box is the lights. And you tap off a circuit like you do the headlight wire.

Did that make sense? Sometimes my hands don't type what my brain is thinking to well.

corsair23
02-20-2008, 06:40 PM
Did that make sense? Sometimes my hands don't type what my brain is thinking to well.

Makes perfect sense :thumb:...Applying it is the difficult part for me though :D

Maybe once I actually dig into it and do it things will make more sense. I have the fuse box Slee sells (http://www.sleeoffroad.com/technical/tz_interior_fusebox.htm) and when I looked at it is is just one strip and it wasn't obvious where the ignition source would feed in.

On a side note, and I meant to mention this before, on the Painless aux fuse box I recall a post by Gary (waggoner5) about there being a couple different versions of the Painless blocks and there was one you want to get if you go that route and there was one you want to avoid.

Rezarf
02-20-2008, 07:03 PM
Corbet, I am doing all this right now in the 40 and the trailer.

I am using Blue Sea block 5015 and the west marine triple outlets (the kind you posted) that I got last month in florida. Both are really high quality! Ebay is great for the Blue Sea stuff. I may have paid about 30 bucks for the block verses all the cash for the Painless... it is a no brainer, with easy hook up and the same fuses as the 40 uses any how.

You can also get the lables to say fridge, ham, lights... etc. Very nice touch

I just bought a distribution panel for the trailer that is a fuse block and switch panel all in one... the stuff is first class and really well made. :thumb:

Three Wheel Ben
02-22-2008, 07:57 PM
Another good source for fuse blocks is www.wranglernw.com, not much on their website but they have a 60 page catalog and great customer service. I've been buying stuff from them for years.

Also the fridge thing, I have an ARB and I have measured 2.9 amps at compressor start-up and it drops to about 2.4-2.5 while the fridge is running. HTH

ben

Corbet
02-23-2008, 08:43 AM
Thanks for the fridge info. I've looked at the Wrangle website, it sucks, I can't find any info on their fuse block. Christo pointed me there too as that's where he gets his.

corsair23
02-23-2008, 08:26 PM
Thanks for the fridge info. I've looked at the Wrangle website, it sucks, I can't find any info on their fuse block. Christo pointed me there too as that's where he gets his.

Corbet,

Did you download the catalog (http://www.wranglernw.com/t-download.aspx)? It looks like pg 59 of the catalog has the fuse blocks Slee sells and if I'm reading it correctly they are rated for 80 amps. There isn't a lot of specific info in general IMO but I used it more to get an idea of what all might be available out there (sometimes you just don't know they even make a "whatchamacallit" until you see it) and went from there knowing what to search on. I bought a lot of my wiring, fuses, battery terminals, etc. from Mitek in their closeout section --> here (http://www.mitekfactoryoutlet.com/products/brand.cfm?brand=9). I mentioned this place in the other thread I linked to (post #44) with a hint on shipping cost etc.

Romer
02-23-2008, 10:00 PM
I bought my basic fuse block at pep boys. All accessories off of it are hot. I also wired the CB and Ham so I could chat when the truck is off. I switched the cigarette lighter over to be always hot as well.

The outlets are also used to charge stuff or use the inverter to charge a laptop or camera.

But I have dual batts so if I run a battery down, its just a switch. Never have had an issue so far. Had a lot of stuff powered sitting in my truck over night at Flat Nasty with no issues.

You want to make sure you use the correct gage wire. I think I used 10 for the fridge and Ham and 12-14 for everything else.

Hulk
02-24-2008, 01:20 AM
I have bought fuse blocks for both my 80 and my 40 from West Marine. The quality is great.

Corbet
02-24-2008, 08:20 AM
Corbet,

Did you download the catalog (http://www.wranglernw.com/t-download.aspx)? It looks like pg 59 of the catalog has the fuse blocks Slee sells and if

Thanks, I didn't see that on the website the first time.

Rezarf
02-27-2008, 08:07 PM
Corbet-

Here are a few of the shots you wanted of the Blue Sea panel it is sharp.

I like how simple it is, and one little bonus is the little yellow levers actually pop the fuse out. It is really well made and feels really solid in my hand.

Drew

Shark Bait
02-27-2008, 09:25 PM
I went with one of these (http://bluesea.com/category/5/21/productline/products/5026) because I may go past 6 acessories. Unfortunately it didn't come in a glass fuse version.

Rezarf
02-27-2008, 09:37 PM
That is a nice panel, I just wanted to keep one kind of fuse on hand. I liked that panel more, but in the end the trailer and aux fuses will all be the glass fast burn style. Just the way I thought about it.

Drew

Corbet
02-28-2008, 03:20 PM
Thanks Drew. I still can't make up my mind on either one of those, or the one that Christo uses from Wrangler. The wrangle one fits the best under the passenger seat.(rear heater side panel) I like the features of the one that Chris used the best, but it's also the largest and not likely to be very user friendly to wire up in the location I want. The glass fuse type Drew has there will probably fit pretty good as both the + and - accessory posts are on the same side. But then I've got to have two types of fuses with me. I really like that with BlueSea you can order custom labels.

I'm leaning towards the glass fuse on though. Fuses don't take up much space and I think that one will fit where I want it.

Shark Bait
02-28-2008, 05:05 PM
You know, I went by West Marine today again. I had thought about it a little more and went ahead and bought a 6 glass fuse box for my project 40 and 6 blade type box for my 80. I think I can make do in the 40 with 6, and the idea of using the same type of fuses appealed to me. Of course he 80 has the blade type.

Damn, wire is expensive. I picked up an already cut length of both red and black 2 ga. and even with a 30% discount it was $4.59/foot. I went with 6 ga. :eek:

Rezarf
02-28-2008, 06:07 PM
Yeah, copper is way up. JB Saunders has good wire selection, but the price is average.

Drew

Corbet
03-15-2008, 02:07 PM
Corbet, this thread might help some --> http://www.risingsun4x4club.org/forum2/showthread.php?t=3567

Starting with post #31 there is discussion on adding a second fuse block with some helpful information on wiring size etc. As for amp ratings once you have the fuse block installed then you can wire up and fuse the individual circuits at the appropriate size for what the device requires. How big of a secondary fuse block you need (max amp rating, max # of circuits, etc.) is determined by what all you are planning to add. I would suggest going the next size up to allow for growth (i.e. you plan to add 3 ckts then go for a block that will support 6 or more ckts)

HTH :cheers:

The wiring chart did not go as high as my fuse block is rated for. (80 amp) with a margin of safety I think I'll put a 60 or 70 amp circuit breaker on it. Something like this under the hood. Its waterproof too.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/121144/377%20710/0/circut%20breaker/Primary%20Search/mode%20matchallpartial/0/0?N=377%20710&Ne=0&Ntt=circut%20breaker&Ntk=Primary%20Search&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&Nao=0&Ns=0&keyword=circut%20breaker&isLTokenURL=true&storeNum=5002&subdeptNum=9&classNum=119

What does the forum say for wire? 6 or 8 awg? Probably have to run 10-12 feet. Battery to fuse block under passenger seat. I know bigger is normally better but harder to run in tight spaces and more $ too.

Rezarf
03-15-2008, 03:31 PM
for 10ish feet I would think 8 is fine!

corsair23
03-16-2008, 05:52 PM
What does the forum say for wire? 6 or 8 awg? Probably have to run 10-12 feet. Battery to fuse block under passenger seat. I know bigger is normally better but harder to run in tight spaces and more $ too.

Corbet,

IIRC when I was looking at this stuff last year (yeah, I still haven't got it done) I came up with needing 6ga to run from my battery (DS) to the fuse block under the PS (planned location).

I couldn't find 6ga wire :confused:. So, IIRC I bought 4ga from Mitek...maybe it was 8ga...I think I figured the run at >10-12' though. Are you running from a second battery or the main battery on the DS?

This site (http://www.the12volt.com/info/recwirsz.asp) seems to recommend 8ga for up to 100amps and 4ga for up to 150amp. It also shows (if I'm reading it correctly) that for 600 watts/96 amps you'd need 4ga wire for a run of 8' or more...

Corbet
03-16-2008, 06:19 PM
I found this chart that seems to confirm 8 AWG should be OK. But I'm no EE, Romer chime in here.

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

Corbet
04-14-2008, 07:02 PM
Blue Sea fuse block, part # 5015
Blue Sea circuit breaker 60 amp, waterproof, part # 7111
West Marine double 12v outlets, part # 6867915
Heat Shrink tubing from Northern Tool

All wire/connectors sourced from Ebay vendor: http://stores.ebay.com/Genuinedealz

6/2 awg, marine grade
10/2 awg, marine grade
12/2 awg, marine grade
Closed End Tinned lugs
10-12 awg waterproof heat shrink ring terminals

Also installed, Kenwood TM-v71a Dual Band HAM Radio

The complete system is very overkill as far as wire gauge verse power demands. My goals were to minimize voltage drop, allow for future expansion, waterproof as possible, and maintain the cleanest possible appearance.



First up the fuse block. I choose the glass fuse type block from Blue Sea because of the mounting holes. I was able to use the factory screw for one. Blue Sea also offers a modern blade type fuse block but IMO this one fit better.

I followed Slee's example and placed it under the passenger seat on the side of the heater. Power is suppied by 6/2 awg from the battery. 10/2 awg goes to the rear 12v outlets, 12/2 awg to the front 12v outlets. Used the supplied Kenwood wiring harness for the HAM

Corbet
04-14-2008, 07:02 PM
12 volt outlets installed into passenger side of center console and in the rear below ash tray. 10/2 awg run behind interior trim to rear outlets.

Corbet
04-14-2008, 07:02 PM
Kenwood TM-v71a. Radio placed under drivers seat. The mounting bracket had to be modified in order to lower the radio to clear seat mechanicals. The control panel is installed into the back of the center console. I first removed the fake wood trim with a heat gun and gasket scraper. I cut the hole with a Dremel tool. Right now the fit is tight enough that I didn't have to make any kind of bracket. I need to find a better way to cut plastic and then reinstall the wood trim. Antenna coax is run under the carpet to the door sill trim where it continues to the back hatch mount.

Corbet
04-14-2008, 07:02 PM
60 amp circuit breaker mounted next to the drivers side battery. I used one of the captured nuts on the inner fender. It also works like a master switch if I want to kill power to the fuse block. That way if I let a family member drive the truck I can prevent unauthorized use of the HAM or the battery being drained due to accessories plugged into the 12v outlets.

Corbet
04-14-2008, 07:53 PM
Yet on the list, order custom labels for each circuit. Blue Sea offer hundreds of different labels for $.50 a piece. I'll add a pic when they arrive.

Rezarf
04-14-2008, 08:26 PM
SWEET! Looks nice and clean! Great Mod! :clap:

nakman
04-14-2008, 09:20 PM
Wow, looks great Corbet! I like how clean your wiring is..

corsair23
04-15-2008, 01:34 AM
KUDOS Corbet. Very nicely done indeed!!

I hope mine turns out as nicely. Did you installed switched and non-switched power to the fuse block? I also like the idea of the circuit breaker (I assume in lieu of a fuse?).

Two :thumb:s up

Convert
04-15-2008, 07:33 AM
Nice job looks very clean :thumb:

Red_Chili
04-15-2008, 08:06 AM
Very nice.

I found a 100A circuit breaker at an auto sound store down the street that looks identical to that Blue Sea one, and it supplies power to my compressors and trailer brakes. It is a very clean and good working unit, you'll like it.

Now I need to find high capacity fuses for the batteries themselves... just something about running 1/0 welding cable the length of the truck (even though it is in irrigation pipe for armor) that leaves me a bit unsettled. 300A fuses anyone?

Uncle Ben
04-15-2008, 08:13 AM
Very nice.

I found a 100A circuit breaker at an auto sound store down the street that looks identical to that Blue Sea one, and it supplies power to my compressors and trailer brakes. It is a very clean and good working unit, you'll like it.

Now I need to find high capacity fuses for the batteries themselves... just something about running 1/0 welding cable the length of the truck (even though it is in irrigation pipe for armor) that leaves me a bit unsettled. 300A fuses anyone? Check NAPA! I have bought them there before but I have noticed all the parts jobbers redid their electrical accessory stock fairly recently. I guess hi-power/hi-amp distribution in newer cars is unheard of. As cars are designed more and more disposable with much engineering going into crumple zones micro electronics are becoming the norm. :(

DaveInDenver
04-15-2008, 08:24 AM
300A fuses anyone?
ANN, up to 800A
ANL, up to 750A
AMG, up to 300A

Red_Chili
04-15-2008, 08:37 AM
Gee, pretty affordable too.
So Dave, how would you size them?

DaveInDenver
04-15-2008, 09:09 AM
Gee, pretty affordable too.
So Dave, how would you size them?
I don't have my NEC book with me, so I'd only be able to guess. But if memory serves (and see the Monday night radio thread to judge my memory), I wouldn't have guessed 1/0 cable to be good to 300A for any sort of length. So I'd probably fuse the battery side to limit the current through those cables to around that, probably something like a 250A time delay.

FYI, read following at risk of headache.

The code approaches fusing differently. You calculate the load, take some margin factor and size the fuse. Then you use cable sufficiently sized for that fused load. So you'd need to know the stalled motor current for your winch plus anticipated load and that will give you a value. My guess is the stall current is gonna be like 225A (around 4.25HP stalled) and so I would take 150% of that value plus the expected continuous loads like ECU, ignition, radios, etc. at 125%. So say 330A + 20A = 350A. I would use a regular blow fuse. If you have electric fans, I would call those a continuous load during wheeling, so take their max current at 125%. You can take non-continuous loads at 100%, so headlights for example could be included at 100% of max.

But I'm almost 100% certain 1/0 cable can't safely take 350A+ over 20 feet. So I would fuse at the 40C capacity for 1/0 and deal with nuisance tripping. I can get back to you with the ampacity of 1/0 for different ambient temps and insulation types tonight or tomorrow.

Red_Chili
04-15-2008, 09:21 AM
I am running about 10' of fine braid welding cable (copper), one per battery hot, to the engine bay. Winch usage would be the highest load. You know what, I keep saying 1/0 but there ain't no stinkin' way it is only 8.25mm in diameter. I gotta check that. :doh:

Convert
04-15-2008, 09:31 AM
300A fuses anyone?

This is where I picked up a 100amp for the 2nd fuse box. http://www.vteworld.com/content/electromech/fuse/html/anl/anlfuse.php
They have quite a selection

DaveInDenver
04-15-2008, 09:57 AM
I am running about 10' of fine braid welding cable (copper), one per battery hot, to the engine bay. Winch usage would be the highest load. You know what, I keep saying 1/0 but there ain't no stinkin' way it is only 8.25mm in diameter. I gotta check that. :doh:
It all depends on the insulation. Flipping through the Coleman Cable catalog, looks like 1/0AWG, 1064-stand, CPE-insulation welding cable is rated to 260A using the NEC method (90C conductor temp, 40C ambient). I'd probably use a 200A or 225A Bussman ANL (#2024). They should tolerate <300A for winch pulls but will melt in few seconds above 400A.

http://www.colemancable.com

Hants
04-15-2008, 11:43 AM
Ok, Dave, now you have me a bit worried.

I'm planning to run 1/0 fine-strand, tinned cable for my winch. Stall is 440A. Stock, it comes with 2 gauge cables.

Should I be running 2/0 instead (less than 10' total circuit length)? I figured 2 sizes larger would be sufficient.

Are they really delivering barely-within-ampacity cable?

Red_Chili
04-15-2008, 12:01 PM
I run the cable that came with my winch. Meh.

DaveInDenver
04-15-2008, 12:17 PM
Ok, Dave, now you have me a bit worried.

I'm planning to run 1/0 fine-strand, tinned cable for my winch. Stall is 440A. Stock, it comes with 2 gauge cables.

Should I be running 2/0 instead (less than 10' total circuit length)? I figured 2 sizes larger would be sufficient.

Are they really delivering barely-within-ampacity cable?
I'd be very surprised if they really drew >5kW. It might be 440A at some seriously depressed voltage. With the engine running and assuming a voltage dip to 12V, I'd expect more like ~250A tops going into a regular 8,000 or 9,000 lbs winch. Maybe a 15,000 lbs winch with a monster motor could be looking at those kind of currents. Measure the winding resistance, that's what you need to find the true stall current of a DC motor is. If they rate the motor at 4.6HP, that is at the max torque and by definition that will be stall speed at zero RPM. That 4.6HP is 3.43kW and at 12V you are looking at 286A. Wire sizing also needs to capture how long the expected current is going to happen and temp rise. The cables are cold at ambient, say 25C, and will work for a few minutes and cool down again. It's different than if a 5HP motor is working constantly in a steel foundry...

If Warn is using 2AWG cables, it's for just a few feet and I bet the insulation is 105C. I would personally run one size bigger cables from the engine bay battery and that's mostly so I could use 90C insulation (but if the cables they give you are long enough, use them). For Bill's installation the length of the wires would concern me from a voltage drop and heating at full current standpoint, but size-wise 1/0AWG itself wouldn't bother me much with fuses at the batteries. If you are being conservative, go ahead and assume the engine is dead and you are doing a dead pull, the battery is depressed to 9V and it's a full current pull. That's 3.4kW/9V = 377A. What am I missing to get 440A? Are these motors series or shunt (or maybe compound) wound? If they are true series wound, there can be significant current through the stator, but that's not proportional and should be constant. I wouldn't expect that to be very high, what 30A, 40A? There's a point where the battery is too flat to energize the field and so it won't matter how much current you have in theory, the motor will not operate anyway.

Corbet
04-15-2008, 12:19 PM
Did you installed switched and non-switched power to the fuse block? I also like the idea of the circuit breaker (I assume in lieu of a fuse?).

Everything is wired hot all the time. The circuit breaker also works like a master switch if need be. I thought about doing some circuits ignition switched, but realized 90% of everything I would ever want to add would be just fine always on. So I followed the KISS theory.

Rezarf
04-15-2008, 01:39 PM
Corbet, where did you get that circuit breaker?

Drew

Corbet
04-15-2008, 02:36 PM
Corbet, where did you get that circuit breaker?

Drew

Ebay. I DO NOT recommend the vendor I got it from http://myworld.ebay.com/ebaymotors/steelfirebat/ Shipping was:



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West Marine has them but their price is higher.

Hants
04-15-2008, 05:18 PM
Dave, Warn M12000. http://www.warn.com/truck/winches/src/M1200.shtml

4.6HP. 72" cables. Sounds like 1/0 is fine for intermittent draws for this winch.

:beer:

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