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View Full Version : the definitive snorkel thread.


nakman
02-24-2008, 10:09 PM
Wes said something in Treeroot's Ptarmigan thread that reminded me of one of the discussions currently taking place in my head, so I wanted to start a separate thread to hash this out. I am getting real close to doing the Landtank MAF sensor mod. I'd like a little more power, but hopefully better fuel economy, so "more air" seems like the right direction. But no, I'm not giving up manifold cooking or the York, so we'll be sticking with the naturally aspirated options. However you tell me if that matters here.

Pros of the snorkel:
-Cooler, cleaner air intake since it's up higher.
-Ability to consume more air.

Cons of the snorkel:
-Have to drill a big hole
-Idiot magnet
-More drag?

The Toyota OEM snorkel looks like this:

nakman
02-24-2008, 10:11 PM
The Safari Snorkel looks like this:

nakman
02-24-2008, 10:17 PM
The intake hole for the OEM one is right where the power antenna is (on an 80) so you will either need to remove that, or try to relocate it. With the Safari, the intake hole is further up the fender, so you can keep the antenna in the stock location but you need to melt a little reveal in order to insure continued smooth operation. It also looks like you give up the "ram air" effect with the OEM snorkel, since they've got that big satellite dish/prefilter deal on there.

I don't plan to/expect to cross deep water with either option. My main reason would be better performance, even though that discussion (http://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/205153-snorkel-%3D-performance.html)seems to go around and around and get no where. So someone who's done more research than me set us straight here... :beer:

wesintl
02-24-2008, 10:18 PM
Because the radar dome kicks a$$. OEM rocks. That is all.




The oem has a precleaner. You're not going to get any ram effect with it.

Nay
02-24-2008, 10:31 PM
I like the Safari look much better. As for performance, I think it's mostly "seat of the wallet", as in "I just spent a bunch of money and I know it made a difference".

I'd get the Landtank MAF mod and do the snorkel if you like the look. I did think it made a difference on my old XJ, but it's really not a "performance difference" in the sense that you'll still bog down on the same hills as you do now. The Landtank MAF mod has other benefits, and dollar for dollar I think it's a no brainer. Except that you don't get a "periscope" :hill:

Romer
02-24-2008, 10:37 PM
Having installed one on an 80, The Safari has a straight shot down and then a larger rubber hose going straight into the aircan. What I aw of the OEM goes in where the antenna is and then out to the air cleaner where the Safari is, so another 90 degree turn maybe cutting down airflow. Does it really matter because it can only take so much air? Haven't a clue.

I will tell you getting the bolts on that part where the antenna is located is very very tight and my arm was bruised as far as I had to shove my arm in there. That was just to get 1 bolt. I would ask someone who has done OEM how tight it is getting that setup in. It's obviously doable, but I would think more difficult than the Safari.

I think there was a thread where someone took the top part of the OEM and fitted it to a safari, That might be worth doing and I might go for a group buy on the top part to play with it.


What I did on the Safari, is found the cheapest online price and went to 4wd parts who matched it. Christo gets my money for bumpers, drawers, sliders, frigs etc. I have no problem with saving a few bucks on something sold everywhere.

Shark Bait
02-24-2008, 11:00 PM
Cons of the snorkel:
-Have to drill a big hole
-Idiot magnet
-More drag?


Once more "con", having to repeatedly hear,"What's that thing?". :mad:

subzali
02-24-2008, 11:04 PM
I think that was the idiot magnet part...

So do Aussie 80s not have radios? 'cept'in' for VHF/UHF?

Romer
02-24-2008, 11:04 PM
Once more "con", having to repeatedly hear,"What's that thing?". :mad:

Thats the idot magnet part

Here is an interesting hybrid

http://inlinethumb38.webshots.com/34405/2179151010034696539S600x600Q85.jpg
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa206/CodyLX450R/IMG_0615.jpg

http://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/193242-arb-snorkel-pre-filter-question.html

I would think the nature of it would provide less airflow but then again, at what point does it matter?

nakman
02-24-2008, 11:07 PM
So if you guys agree the only two benefits of a snorkel are cleaner air and more air, and you agree that OEM is less air than Safari, then only reason to pick OEM is looks?

I'm definitely starting with the MAF mod first, then see where this goes.

Jacket
02-24-2008, 11:07 PM
I enjoyed reading this thread a while back.

http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2299

I don't think there's a definitive answer, but it certainly can't hurt, right?

Romer
02-24-2008, 11:10 PM
I wouldn't say thats the only benifit. I measured significant intake temp reductions. I would have to search, but somewhere in the 30 to 40 deg F range. BUT My SC makes it hotter there so your mileage may vary.

corsair23
02-24-2008, 11:14 PM
I'm definitely starting with the MAF mod first, then see where this goes.

Not to hijack you're thread but did you get Landtanks housing or work out a "deal" with him? :D Maybe we need a MAF thread as well...I'm waiting for feedback from Hants on his thoughts...

Shark Bait
02-24-2008, 11:20 PM
I'm definitely starting with the MAF mod first, then see where this goes.
MAF mod? Better fuel economy? :confused:

Romer
02-24-2008, 11:20 PM
Not to hijack you're thread but did you get Landtanks housing or work out a "deal" with him? :D Maybe we need a MAF thread as well...I'm waiting for feedback from Hants on his thoughts...

Hijacker :rolleyes:

Both Uncle Ben and I also have it.

Romer
02-24-2008, 11:23 PM
MAF mod? Better fuel economy? :confused:
http://forum.ih8mud.com/merchandise-storefront/166370-landtank-performance-maf-housing.html

corsair23
02-24-2008, 11:30 PM
Hijacker :rolleyes:

Both Uncle Ben and I also have it.


Yeah, but you guys have the "Powah' mod" which is like comparing our golf carts to your Porsches :hill:

nakman
02-24-2008, 11:43 PM
Yeah curb your hijacks.. but know that good stuff is in the works ;)


Does the housing do anything for normally aspirated trucks?

Yes, you'll find that the truck will run smother, has better throttle response and reports have indicated better fuel mileage of 1 mpg around town. On the highway the truck will down shift much less and deal with hills better.

Nay
02-25-2008, 12:04 PM
Not to suggest that Landtank hasn't done great work when I say this:

I wonder how much of the gains have to do with the sensor alone on a normally aspirated truck. That seems to be the bigger bit of it for those who don't necessarily need to extra "headroom" for forced induction.

nakman
02-25-2008, 02:04 PM
That's what I'm hoping for Nay, that without a super charger and without a snorkel that I'll still get a nice little kick, beyond the "seat of the wallet" placebo effect. that's a great term, BTW. :thumb: But I don't think that undermines any of Rick's intentions at all, everyone should see results from this, not just the S/C'd or the snorkeled.

But how much better does it get or can it when you add those extras will likely continue to be the debate.

Hants
02-25-2008, 02:51 PM
Not to hijack you're thread but did you get Landtanks housing or work out a "deal" with him? :D Maybe we need a MAF thread as well...I'm waiting for feedback from Hants on his thoughts...

MAF mod is GREAT.

- Initially the idle was "lopey" (cycled between 600 and 650). This went away after a bit (a few days). Probably due to ECU learning/re-tuning the idle Fuel Trim (FPR idle pressure backoff is disabled when the new MAF is installed because the new MAF can correctly meter the low flows).

- A bit more acceleration at low speeds, and a bit less throttle to maintain speed on the freeway

- About 1MPG gain in economy

- Engine is now a bit "throaty" off idle. Kinda truck-ish.

- LTFT materially changed. Not out of spec, but it shifted. Talked with LT about it, and came to the conclusion that it was due to 1) old, corroded IAT sensor, or 2) slightly different response curve.

Note that I had already done a bunch of "tuning": new plugs, wires, cap, rotor, O2 sensors, air filter, throttle cable, intake pipe, BG44K every oil change. Also, my motor has been blessed by Robbie (milled head, valve job, HG, ported & polished, cleaned & balanced injectors, cleaned intake, timing slightly advanced, adjusted transmission kickdown cable).

Overall, I'm pleased with where its at now. With "Power" on, I drive like a normal SUV, I can accelerate onto the freeway, I can pass vehicles on the freeway (with attention & preparation), I can hold the passes at 60. Not an over-powered American SUV, but very drivable. :)

Only 2 steps more on my "performance" mission: Snorkle & 2.5" exhaust. No forced induction in my future. :)

treerootCO
02-25-2008, 02:58 PM
That's what I'm hoping for Nay, that without a super charger and without a snorkel that I'll still get a nice little kick, beyond the "seat of the wallet" placebo effect. that's a great term, BTW. :thumb: But I don't think that undermines any of Rick's intentions at all, everyone should see results from this, not just the S/C'd or the snorkeled.

But how much better does it get or can it when you add those extras will likely continue to be the debate.

did you just hijack your own thread? :)

The way I read it, the new MAF sensor allowed the truck to stay in closed loop longer than the stock one instead of just dumping fuel.

Hants
02-25-2008, 03:02 PM
Not to suggest that Landtank hasn't done great work when I say this:

I wonder how much of the gains have to do with the sensor alone on a normally aspirated truck. That seems to be the bigger bit of it for those who don't necessarily need to extra "headroom" for forced induction.

Once you see the OEM & LT MAF's side-by-side, it's clear that at least some of the improvement is due to less restriction. The OEM is probably a full inch narrower in ID, AND has a huge nose cone in the middle.

Based on my research & experience, the gains come from:

1. less restriction (see above)
2. wider response curve (idle to 27+ lbs/minute, versus OEM >idle to about 17 lbs-minute)
3. faster response of sensors to flow/temp changes
4. sensors that are new versus 10+ years old
5. less time in Open Loop

A couple of detail changes I noticed:

- I basically can't get my NA 1FZ into open loop except at WOT anymore
- My max MAF flow reading went from 17lbs/minute to 19+lbs/minute

nakman
02-25-2008, 03:14 PM
did you just hijack your own thread? :)



Yeah kinda looks like it, doesn't it. :doh: :o

But we're still talking about snorkels.. so Hants you've done the MAF mod, reported improvements, but still think you'll get more performance by adding a snorkel? And are you going with the Safari for "ram effect," or with OEM?

subzali
02-25-2008, 03:25 PM
I have not done any research into snorkels but it would seem to me that with the viscosity and flowrate of air coming into a Safari snorkle and the fact that it has to almost completely reverse its direction of flow there wouldn't really be much of a ram air effect anyway? Or has someone measured or at least felt a difference? Probably a stupid question that's been part of the discussion for years and I just don't know about it...

treerootCO
02-25-2008, 03:31 PM
Take the air filter out. All it does is block airflow :hill:

Hants
02-25-2008, 04:14 PM
Back to our originally scheduled programming...

Nakman: Sounds like a snorkle installation party is in the works! :beer:

Hants
02-25-2008, 04:23 PM
Yeah kinda looks like it, doesn't it. :doh: :o

But we're still talking about snorkels.. so Hants you've done the MAF mod, reported improvements, but still think you'll get more performance by adding a snorkel? And are you going with the Safari for "ram effect," or with OEM?

I haven't looked, but by all reports the OEM intake in the fender is a series of baffles -- taking in pre-heated air (right next to the exhaust manifold).

IIRC, the (recent?) Safari snorkles have a larger cross-sectional area than the OEM. Also, the stock air filter is very effective; I'm sure *I* don't need more filtering. Based on the installation instructions, the Safari also has fewer turns (add up the angle changes over the whole run).

My guess is that there's about as much performance to be had from a snorkle as there is from the MAF mod -- due to less restriction & colder air (I doubt the ram-effect is much).

Then the exhaust would be the other end of the "breathing-easier" plan. Critical for forced induction folks, and a "little" help for us NA folk.

JMHO

Corbet
02-25-2008, 11:56 PM
I would think the greatest benefit of the snorkel is the lower intake air temp. Lower the air temp, the denser the air, more power to be made. Better MPG, maybe?

And all this great knowledge is based on the fact I've never owned a vehicle with a snorkel. Just good old physics :hill: So take it or leave it. :cheers:

Nay
02-26-2008, 05:44 PM
Yeah kinda looks like it, doesn't it. :doh: :o

But we're still talking about snorkels.. so Hants you've done the MAF mod, reported improvements, but still think you'll get more performance by adding a snorkel? And are you going with the Safari for "ram effect," or with OEM?

My question was about just the sensor with the stock MAF...if it will bolt up. On the MUD thread, a great deal of discussion was about the enormous improvement the sensor provides, so for a naturally aspirated truck might you be hitting "80/20" with the sensor alone if it will bolt up?

Back to scheduled programming, not sure how you get much ram effect around 4 bends along 6-8 feet, but no doubt the air is cooler. Haven't you noticed how much more powerful your 80 is in the winter months? :lmao:

Romer
02-26-2008, 08:40 PM
Update to what seemed like a novel idea

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa206/CodyLX450R/IMG_0615.jpg


The other day I glanced at the 10" precleaner and noticed a shiny clean spot at the base, meaning it must have shifted a little and exposed a used-to-be covered spot.

I barely touched it and it almost fell off.

I pull the precleaner base out of the Safari snorkel tube and notice 3 of the "teeth" are cracked and 2 of them actually do separate off.



(this Prefilter is designed for the 1st generation snorkel bodies and fits OVER the snorkel body, but has to be wedged into the new snorkel as the new one is wider)
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa206/CodyLX450R/IMG_0662.jpg


So, SoCalFJ, you probably wanna check yours.

I'll probably rig up something with a short length of PVC tube that will either fit inside or outside of the snorkel body I have and PVC glue it to the deep ridge part of the underside of the prefilter which will be a lot stronger.


I'm lucky I kept the original ARB snorkel head so I'm not driving around with a rain funnel...

nakman
02-26-2008, 09:21 PM
My question was about just the sensor with the stock MAF...if it will bolt up. On the MUD thread, a great deal of discussion was about the enormous improvement the sensor provides, so for a naturally aspirated truck might you be hitting "80/20" with the sensor alone if it will bolt up?



Ok I get it now, and good question. Well I plan on picking up a new sensor from Stevenson next Wednesday, will do some side by side comparisons and see what I can figure out.

60wag
02-26-2008, 09:39 PM
If the real gain is the lower intake temp, why not just punch a hole in the fender and mount a forward facing air scoop on the fender? Then you'd actually get some ram effect in addition to the lower temp. It wouldn't help with deep water crossings but those seem to be rather rare around here.

I need to read up on the sensor thing to figure that one out. Anyone care to summarize for me?

nakman
02-26-2008, 10:10 PM
I enjoyed reading this thread a while back.

http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2299

I don't think there's a definitive answer, but it certainly can't hurt, right?

thanks Matt, I finally had a chance to skip through some of that one tonight. Some good stuff in there, and it's fun to read posts from guys you don't know sometimes. One tidbit I thought particularly interesting was this one, since it relates to the recent pre cleaner failure pictured above:


Originally Posted by ExpeditionsWest.com
Cleaner Air:
A properly engineered raised air intake system is a critical component of outfitting a vehicle for expedition travel; though it's most significant merit is not its most commonly perceived intent. Living in the southwest and traveling along miles of dusty tracks has shown me the benefits of raising the air intake high above the road surface, where the majority of the heavier dust concentration collects. When dust and dirt is stirred by the foregoing vehicle, the particles will separate by their specific gravity, with the majority settling several feet above the ground and lower. Though the dust generated by a fast moving vehicle can reach significant height, the greatest volume of particulates will have only reached an elevation of a few feet above the road surface, which is where the raised intake benefits.

Note on fitting a cyclone (donaldson type) filter: It is typical for a raised air intake used on stationary equipment and slow moving implements to be fitted with a cyclone type pre cleaner. These units are very effective when stationary or at slow speeds (below 40kph), but are useless at higher velocities as the suction created at the higher travel rates disturbs the cyclone effect. the units also must be quite large to allow sufficient airflow to the engine and cannot be used at highway speeds (80 kph and higher) without damage or loss. The pre cleaner has little use in real world trekking where high road speeds are often encountered.

Fording:
As expected, the raised air intake is a requirement for deep water fording. Many SUV's can begin ingesting water at even bumper height crossings. Water does not compress as air does, and even a small amount of water sucked into the engine can lead to valvetrain damage. When properly fitted and sealed, the raised air intake will draw air from near roof height, well above a typical crossing.

Other Considerations When Fording: Raising the air intake is just one component of deep water fording. When fitted to a gasoline engine it is necessary to ensure the high voltage ignition system is also capable of attaining the same depth. Some of the better designed gas motors now use distributorless ignitions, which are actually well sealed. The Trooper, UZJ100 and Tacoma (as do others) all use a coil on plug design which is far superior to a distributor. Special attention must also be placed on differential and gearbox breathers, taking those lines to the highest point in the engine (or even tapped into the snorkel system). Never attempt to cross water that is over hood height, and avoid crossing fast moving sources exceeding the vehicles tire height.

Bruce, check out that link that Romer posted, most of the benefits are covered there. And let's yak about it some next week (before you buy anything ;))

wesintl
02-26-2008, 10:41 PM
Yeah. I'd have to say that the donaldson cleaner doesn't do much. I would have to think that there is some benefit for the oem cyclones or toyota wouldn't have bothered with it. It's kinda like the oem centrifugal air cleaners with the little catch. They work, but i've never had to clean the bottom of my non centrifugal air cleaner either. Different beasts.

As for the snorkel itself. I've swamped my sprung over 40 in a deep, deep hole. Sucked enough water in the engine to kill the electrical. I spend alot of time and $ empting the engine of water. I had to buy a new OEM toyota ignitor since merl boned me over on a used one then would only give me credit on it (don't even get me started on that). Needless to say i've spent alot of $ on cruisers in the last 15+ years, none of it with him. That was before the plethera of the web. That 2f still runs good today. I bought one my wheelin cruisers as insurance.

Nay
02-27-2008, 12:23 AM
If the real gain is the lower intake temp, why not just punch a hole in the fender and mount a forward facing air scoop on the fender? Then you'd actually get some ram effect in addition to the lower temp. It wouldn't help with deep water crossings but those seem to be rather rare around here.

I need to read up on the sensor thing to figure that one out. Anyone care to summarize for me?

Here is the full thread:

http://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/132012-test-maf-gen-1-a.html

Bottom line seems to be the ability to measure in inches vs. feet (figuratively speaking), and measure a full yard instead of 18 inches. Simply a much more finely tuned system.

I think the sensor will not bolt up on a quick re-read. It's really an impressive piece of work and probably worth every penny. This is first on my list once my "real" mods are done :D.

Most of this stuff ultimately falls into the "perfuming the pig" category when you really get down to it :hill: